No Fly Zone Over Palestine?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by S.A.M., Apr 21, 2011.

  1. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    9,391
    That's between him and the various agencies that said money is given to (PA, UNRWA, etc.).

    You asked what kind of support the Western world - and specifically the USA - gives to Palestine. You were provided with an answer. If you'd like to address that answer, in the context in which it was requested, then we can do that. If, instead, you're just going to immediately change the subject, then don't phrase such as a response to said requested information.

    That's silly - you are asking explicitly political questions.

    Except that such an experience is not one that the ordinary, common Palestinian has undergone, or likely ever will. Something like a few thousand houses have been demolished, total - compared to a Palestinian population in the millions.

    The question for the ordinary, common Palestinian, is how he is to resist the prospect that the homes of a small percentage of his fellow nationals may be demolished. Which points directly to the political dimension of the question.

    Whatever it is, it will necessarily be a political response. It's a political conflict, and so operates in those terms.

    Canny, robust political opposition, up to and including warfare (where such is effective). What else?

    Last I checked, the legitimate complaints about the nature of Palestinian resistance weren't that they were violent as such, but rather that they are depraved, ineffectual, and corrosive to Palestine's political prospects. Nobody worth caring about is going to complain if uniformed Palestinian security forces show up and forcefully resist some settlement bulldozers - it's the terrorism that rankles.

    As to the illegitimate complaints, whence the need to address them? Are there even any in evidence here, or is this just you weaseling your way into playing both sides of the debate again?
     
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  3. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Nobody thinks Israel is the underdog in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    People do think that Israel is the underdog in the Arab-Israeli conflict. And they are, by most measures. And so Israel's posture and foreign policy is determined by the need to balance against the Arab States. This results in them being vastly more powerful than Palestine, as the latter just happens to have been the weakest, most marginalized little corner of the Arab World since a long, long time ago.

    If Israel/Palestine were some island somewhere, the story would be different. But as it is, they're surrounded by much larger states (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan) that have repeatedly allied together to attack Israel.
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Yes but I am not satisfied with the answer. Paying the puppet government or Israel to supply aid or food to Palestine is like paying the Germans to take care of their concentration camp prisoners. Since the elected representatives of the people are not involved - such "aid" is unlikely to reach the people. Israel used Palestinian aid to "enhance" its security or blackmails its puppets with Palestinian rights. It decides that diapers and schoolbooks are WMDs and banned. How is that of any use to the average Palestinian who is dispossessed and occupied?
    Palestinian rights are no more than a sound byte

    I'm asking what the average Palestinian can expect as compared to the average Israeli - in terms of aid from the countries that "decided" to give their land to European Jews. Thats not politicians lying on that beach in Gaza. Thats the Palestinian revolutionary asking for defence against a militant armed oppressor213
    Can they expect a no fly zone over Palestine to defend themselves? Will that be forthcoming any time soon?



    Link? Who keeps track of the demolished homes? What happened to the homes of the people of Najd aka Sderot? What happened to the homes of the 800,000 Palestinians who were dispossessed by the Israelis? What happened to the original homes of the 1.5 million people who are currently in Gaza? What happened to the homes of the people where the Jews Only settlements are at present?
    I think the question extends far beyond a "few" demolished homes. ALL the Palestinians are currently stateless. How many Palestinians is that?

    Like slavery and colonialism, occupation is not just a political problem. Most human rights violations utilise politics to escape accountability
    Indeed.Except that those with whom such terrorism rankles, live off far worse terrorism themselves. And if the terrorism rankles, whats stopping them from removing the cause of such terrorism i.e. the occupation?

    I suppose the last 60 years of occupation -aided, funded, armed and supported by those who want "peace" - could go down as "collateral damages"
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2011
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  7. Edmilson Registered Member

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    Quite an interesting Video.Thanks a lot for sharing.At first Instance It really surprised me that the Palestine is also declared as the no fly zone.I think that you need to see this video at least once.Hope so you enjoy the combination of people making the words sated above as the title of this thread.
    Orlando Fitness boot camp
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  8. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Did it fail to account for some stream of revenue or other aid provided from the West/USA to Palestine?

    If not, then the object of your dissatisfaction is not the answer.

    This "puppet government:" that's the Palestinian Authority? UNRWA?

    Where should the money go, if not the recognized representatives of the Palestinian nation, or organizations designated by the UN to handle such issues? How can one go about bypassing such a government, without necessarily erecting a parallel "puppet government?"

    It reaches the nation, though. How the nation's finances relate to those of "the people" is primarily a domestic political issue. There isn't much that outsiders can do to bypass the representatives of the nation, without causing even greater problems by so doing.

    This distinction that you're pushing doesn't go anywhere. You're asking about their expectations of nation-level political relations, not personal resources. No amount of rephrases is going to change that. You should probably accept this and discuss accordingly, instead of hammering on these meaningless distinctions.

    It seems that what you really want to ask is "how would you feel if you were a Palestinian?" Or something like that.

    That would be every country represented in the UN General Assembly in 1948, then. Which is a different group than you were asking about, earlier.

    Although, perhaps not surprisingly, what Palestine gets from the West accounts for almost the entirety of what they get from everyone.

    Note that your own country shovels billions into Israel's arms industry every year and maintains strategic ties with the Israeli intelligence and military, while giving Palestine scraps and lip-service. Why do you suppose that is? When can Palestine expect you to get serious about your supposed convictions? You think complaining about strawmen to strangers on the internet gets you out of that boat, or something?

    The question you asked was about Palestinians waking up to see bulldozers coming after their homes. Not about having a state - you were explicitly working to avoid political dimensions, remember?

    Meanwhile, about 100 countries already recognize the Palestinian state that was declared back in 1988. It has embassies and diplomatic relations, a recognized government, etc. So, you'll need some qualifier on "stateless" there. Is the complaint that the West doesn't recognize the state in question? Or that no such state exists as such?

    I didn't say that anything was an exclusively political problem. I was rejecting your contention that they can be understood or dealt with absent politics. Try to keep up.

    Not really. Are we addressing Dick Cheney here, or something? You really think your average person who disapproves of suicide terrorism directed at civilians, is somehow dependent on terrorism for a living? That's silly. Most people are worse off for the continuance of such conflicts - only a tiny minority profit off of them.

    Rhetorical question?

    If you seriously can't figure it out, start with some introspection: what's stopping your country from removing the occupation and other policies that cause so much terrorism directed at you? What's stopping you from removing Israel's occupation of Palestine, if such bothers you so much?

    Interesting: 60 years of occupation. So you are indicting Egypt and Jordan there, right along with Israel. You realize that the sources of funding and weapons for their occupations, was not the West, right?

    Or labelling Israel within the 1948 borders as an "occupation?"

    But, again, this exact criticism applies just as well to you as to anyone in the West: your own country aids, funds, arms and supports Israel, despite your stated desire for "peace." How about you square that circle, before going around demanding that others do the same?
     
  9. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    4,416
    *nodding in agreement*

    I'm wondering how that would play out though...but I'd certainly love to see the PA police show up, stop the 'dozer, arrest the IDF bulldozer driver and confiscate his equipment.
     
  10. yaracuy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    364
    Question ?

    Do the Palestinian really need an Army , or weapons ? Why not live just like Cost Rica or Puerto Rico ( free associated state ) There is no benefit for a nation to have military specially in the Palestinian case .( Palestinian are Jews converted to Islam )

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    @quadrophonics:

    sorry still not satisfied with your answer. As you reiterated, I asked what the ordinary Palestinian can do when a religious/racial fanatic shows up at his door/village with a bulldozer to "claim" his home - the west responds to this blatant infringement of human rights by supplying the bulldozers to demolish the homes and aid and weapons to kill the people living in them and legal backing so that those who commit these crimes can call it "self defense". Bizarre. And your response as to what concomitant support is given to Palestinians? There is "aid" from UNWRA -which has to ditch diapers and spices when Israel bans them, take back trucks when the gates are closed, supply 19 trucks in 20 days instead of 500 a day - or the "aid" to PA which is trained by US/Israel to torture "insurgents".

    Why does the UN recognise Israeli "right" to determine traffic into Palestine, when it cannot protect Palestinians from 60 years of Israeli oppression - a creation of the UN? Why does the UN not recognise the legitimately elected government of Palestine and instead sits down with puppets who are illegitimately in power?

    All these things are beyond the purview of the ordinary Palestinian and unlike Egyptians at Tahrir Square when their oppressors bomb them - it is called self defense. Why do some oppressors have the "right" to defend themselves against their victims?

    Would you say that those who support the occupation, with funding, weapons and legal backing are complicit in the dispossession of those Palestinians?

    You stated that only a minority of Palestinians have lost their homes to bulldozers - apparently if your home is not bulldozed when you are dispossessed, this makes a vast deal of difference. My example was just that, an example, it was not a blanket statement intended to embrace/exclude the statelessness of 10 million Palestinians. I could just as easily ask, what should the Palestinian poultry farmer do when Israeli troops bulldoze his chicken farms along with his chickens? Or what should the Palestinian zoo keeper do when Israel troops come in and shoot the animals at point blank range? The fact that all Palestinians are not poultry farmers or zoo keepers is irrelevant. Every one of those Palestinians has been dispossessed - whether by bulldozers, armed soldiers or a bomb or is insecure about his security because Israel has weapons supplied to it by those who want "peace" - so that they can defend themselves from the people they are looting and killing

    For example:

    Why are Palestinian civilians not protected by an Iron Dome or Steel Wall from daily missile attacks?

    Does Israel have the jurisdiction to arrest people in the West Bank? To close down villages there?

    How many Palestinian lives have been destroyed by military aid to fanatics in Israel?

    And not just people:

    Israeli Troops Shoot and Kill Animals in Gaza Zoo


    @yaracuay: The current problems in Palestine as described above, like any colonial occupation of yore are very clear indicators as to why Palestinians need not just weapons but a fully fledged military.

    How else can they protect themselves from fanatics who decide that they are religiously or racially entitled to take their homes and dispossess them? What would you do if someone came to your home and bulldozed it because either God gave him your land or [as he claimed] his Paleolithic/Neolithic/Bronze Age ancestors resided there?

    ( Palestinian are Jews converted to Islam )

    And Israelis are Muslims who have not yet converted to Islam?
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  12. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    Not my problem.

    And I answered this, directly. Would you care to address that, or is this just an exercise in repetitive rhetoric?

    ... is an accounting of such aid, as requested.

    It seems the question you want to be asking is whether the relative levels of assistance are justified, or appropriate, or whatever. As it is, you are asking what the aid is, and then complaining that the answer isn't "something equivalent to aid to Israel." Except nobody claimed it was so equivalent, so...

    And I'll note that I've already addressed the reason for said mismatch in a reply to JuNie a few posts back: aid to Israel is scaled to the Arab-Israeli conflict, not just the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel/Palestine are not some isolated island - they're right in the middle of a huge, strategic region. Palestine is an afterthought in geopolitics - obviously. Are you going to address this, or just keep repeating yourself?

    What's the point in presenting your views as rhetorical questions all the time?

    In the first place, Palestine doesn't have a "legitimately elected government."

    In the second place, Palestine does have a seat at said tables, under an "observer" status. Then there's The Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People, United Nations Division for Palestinian Rights, The Special Committee to Investigate Israeli Practices Affecting the Human Rights of the Palestinian People and Other Arabs of the Occupied Territories, The United Nations Information System on the Question of Palestine, The International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People, the "automatic majority" on General Assembly resolutions, Human Rights Council actions, etc. for anti-Israel positions (you may recall something called the Goldstone Report? That was issued by the UN). There are big chunks of the UN that do almost nothing other than criticize Israel and advocate for Palestine - such is the subject of a large majority of General Assembly resolutions, and fully 100% of certain subcommittee output most years.

    Well, then, there you are: you're asking what an ordinary Palestinian can expect about things beyond his "purview." That's an ill-posed question. And obviously one pursued for rhetoric, not information.

    That's a tautology.

    But since your nation is among those supporters, that category would include yourself. So maybe you'll get farther with these "questions" if you start with some insight into why that is, and how it does or does not relate to your preferences, as an ordinary citizen with no particular geopolitical "purview."

    Because as it is, you really aren't in any position to go around speaking of such "supporters" as some separate group that excludes yourself, and demanding answers from them. You've got a sixty-years-running brutal military occupation of inconvenient Muslims on your frontier, a huge arms trade and strategic alliance with Israel, etc. Start phrasing this stuff in the first person - and applying some insight - if you want to be taken seriously.

    It does make a vast deal of difference to the question of whether the average Palestinian can expect his house to be bulldozed - the specific contention I was replying to.

    Try reading it again - you were making an explicit point of trying to avoid larger political questions (such as state status), by limiting the issue to the expectations and rescourses of your average, ordinary Palestinian.

    I was pointing out that this was ill-posed, since what you're trying to ask about are necessarily political issues at the international level.

    How about you just suck it up and deal with that, instead of pursuing all these cheap tactics, and generally going on like a broken record?

    Exactly - points out that you are addressing a subject of international-level political relations and organization. And not something within the purview of your average citizen - Palestinian, American, or otherwise.

    Let's say some ordinary average American doesn't like how Palestinians are being treated - what can he do to change it? Or, same question, but with Indians. What can you do to change any of this? Pick fights with random Americans on an anonymous internet forum?

    And yet, you complain when America contributes funds and training to Palestinian security forces. Who is going to pay for such an army? Your own country is busy spending billions on Israeli military exports every year, and colluding with their intelligence and military services, remember.
     
  13. Zakariya04 and it was Valued Senior Member

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    6,045
    hahahahaha thats a funny title to a thread SAM
     

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