Star Wars vs Star Trek

I think you are missing the point about debating. Basically what I am getting at is that it is superior in every way. Give a disadvantage, then we can start talking.

 

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So long since I read Dune, I am likely to fk up this counter.

Lack of computers: No matter how fast a Mentat is, someone's computer could be faster, especially as there is wide variation in the Mentats abilities.
Did dune have anything remotely similar to transporters? I don't recall.

 

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Dune doesn't have any transporters; they move by transport/shuttle.

Lets clarify the issue of computers, while computers are forbidden they're still made. The navigation system on post-scattering ships calculate folding space with the same accuracy as the semi-prescient Guild Navigators. It's the issue of A.I. in computers that is taboo.

The best mentats are better than computers but the worst are merely adept logicians.

I think the biggest disadvantage would be in interstellar combat. There isn't need for space combat in Dune save for solar system defense. With jumping from point to point there isn't really a need to patrol the in-between.

 

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A lack of transporter technology is a major disadvantage, with safeties removed from the system, these are potent weapons... Transport 10 men into 10 more. Use cargo transporters to move heavy equipment into destructive positions.

Granted Dune forces can just keep coming. However, Trek universe planets all have orbital defenses, which the Dune ships wouldn't be prepared for. (Ships for space combat, as well as planetary based orbital and ground based weapons)

 

What about the problem with the shields? Dune shields utterly suck.

 

Dune Holtzman Shields rock... at least against their own weapons.

I think Phasers would blow thru em like Tissue Paper though...

Best Dune has to counter with is space-folding shit into other shit...

 

GREAT movie. "Speak the truth, even if it leads to your death."

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I know right? German guy that died early was the best

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"*SLAP*

So you remember it,"

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When a phaser hits a Holtzman shield the Holtzman shield would blow up like a nuclear bomb.

 

Proof of this would be what exactly?

It seems more designed to work similar to Void shields in 40k... but with explosive effects when hit by lasguns.

Phaser =/= Lasgun... nor does it work on the same idea... so we really can't say that it'll go nuclear can we

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Phasers still works in the electromagnetic spectrum. While phasers certainly aren't equal in terms of efficiency of lasers, they both operate on the same spectrum.

Proof of that simple fact? That piece of common knowledge? That fact? Read the Butlerian Jihad or the Machine Crusade. I believe its in one of those two.

They are designed to work like void shields? WTF?!?

Dude, void shields aren't really shields in the conventional sense. They act more like fields that when hit with a certain amount of energy, kinetic energy to mechanical and everything in between, will open up a small portal to the warp which will suck all the explosive energy or kinetic projectile into the warp leaving the ships unharmed.

In theory void shields would be superior to almost every other shield in any science fiction. By that I don't mean they are the most powerful, but I mean that if you put 'X' power into any number of shields, the void shields for that power would probably be the best.

Holtzman shields would detonate on contact with any weapon based off of the electromagnetic spectrum.

 

Uhm... no...

Holtzman shields react based on the speed of the incoming weapon... they even make mention of this in multiple books AND the movies because they mention how, without that limiting factor, it would be impossible to BREATHE through them.

Also, a phaser isn't a simple electromagnetic weapon... remember the acronym and the fact that it uses a mythical particle; if anything, the fact that it accumulates and fires a charge the way it does would make it more of a particle weapon of sorts if anything (which, technically, a lasgun would be as well, since lasers are nothing more than a focused beam of photons...) but we're getting far, far too technical in what we're accounting for.

My comparison to Void shields was about the speed thing (Void shields, IIRC, are also tuned to the speed of the projectile in some manner).

 

That's right! It works on a completely different basis from a void shields. Void shields are actually made up of layers of different shields with the void field itself being the most prominent, but in reality it lies two or three layers under the first shield.

And it doesn't require speed, it requires a certain amount of energy.

Besides the fact:

Void shields are far, far, far more advanced than a Hotlzman shield.

 

Then I was mis-informed (not surprised given the initial source *cough ricecake*) about how Void Shields worked. My bad.

And as for a Phaser being capable of firing other types of shots... just because my 12 gauge shotgun can fire a slug, birdshot, snakeshot, buckshot, or non-lethal beanbags and rubber bullets doesn't mean each shot is going to elicit the same response from a target as the others.

 

well that's a poor comparison, they are all kinetic energy based. And as you said, nadions =/= lasers.

 

You understand my point though - same weapon, different discharge, very different results

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Well, it doesn't really matter, it will still go nuclear if a laser strikes it, whether its a laser pointer or a phaser emitter is irrelevent.

 

Yes, and if you are firing lasers from a phaser emitter without good reason...?

I mean, i guess that could be an interesting tactic... pop off a laser at the guy just before transporting the fuck outa there...

 

My understanding of Holtzman shielding is that it is based on the speed of the weapon being used. The problematic reaction of a Lazgun on the shield occurs because of the focused beam striking at the speed of c. The question would be whether phasers are a c velocity weapon. According to the "Terminology of the Imperium" glossary in Dune, it requires a shire-size electric field to short out a personal shield.

The holtzman shield wouldn't even be used to protect ships anyway. I am arguing from books 5 and 6 where that shield is only used as a weapon. In that setting the use of no-ships make shielding irrelevant because there isn't anything to attack until troops are dropped off planet-side.

 

Dune has the element of surprise with their no-ships. Granted, ST has a decent response time due to transporter technology.

I don't recall ST ever using transporters as a weapon like that; just because they could doesn't mean that they have the stomach for it.

Post-scattering Dune is all about orbital defenses but the use of no-ships makes defense problematic. How does one defend against the unseen?