Since you've not replied to my post requesting evidence for Nova cannon shell masses, do I take it that you have conceded the point?
I haven't read Eisenhorn myself, but I heard of this second hand. Was the ship strictly civilian, or a rogue trader vessel? Those latter can often go up into the warship range with military specs. Additionally, how large was the ship? If we know its surface area, we could probably calculate some benchmark numbers on shield performance. I'll try a brief and somewhat simplified example, using measurements that should hopefully be somewhat accurate for a smaller ship. Going with a block of dimensions 50X50x500 m, we get a surface area of 1,250,000 m². Assuming a power intensity of roughly 6x10^7 watt per meter square at the star's surface and applying these numbers to the above, we get (assuming I didn't mess this up) 7.5x10^13 watt (75 terawatt) shield dissipation. This is somewhat higher than the numbers derived from "Execution Hour" would imply, given the ship endured this for considerable lengths of time, especially if one considers the larger volume (and thus assumed shield endurance/power generation) of the Macharius. (Although EH mentions that it is standard procedure for Imperial warships to keep their shields on at half power at all times when not in combat, so they do have considerable endurance on such levels, at least.) The difference would be at least a couple of orders of magnitude conservatively, probably more. Of course, this is only a rough estimate. To say something more definitely I'd need a better surface area and additional information on the star's properties. I also assumed it sat right at the sun's "surface", which wasn't necessarily the case in the novel.
Alright, as per the corona thing: Thanks, I've been looking for that for some time--ever since Ricrery claimed it as a counter point to ships being endangered by solar flares. It's just as I'd suspected. First, I'll talk about your point. That is, this vs. the Enterprise D's shields. As a matter of note, ST shields are not designed for constant heat and radiation dissipation. The ship is designed to absorb quick, high bursts of energy from weapons and hazards. Ie, typically if you're falling into a star, you're fucked anyhow. The problem was never that the shields couldn't hold back the heat--the problem was endurance. Think of Trek shields like a sprinter; it can run for a short amount of time at a higher speed, but mantaining the speed for too long will simply wear it out. Same here. The shields of the Enterprise cannot take large levels of intense heat for too long without the heat and the radiation starting to leak through the shielding. It's not that the shields fail, it's just that they can't constantly block all of that heat and radiation all at once. More so, the problem is only highlighted by smaller ships or when the Enterprise D itself has taken battle damage: Relics: Data indicates that while not only trapped inside the corona of an unstable star, with shields at 23%, that the unstable solar flares in the region would mean that the ship would last only about three hours until the shields would be no longer sufficient to protect them. Descent: The shields are again damaged and without them we see that the ship begins to quickly heat up (although oddly enough, the ship's hull doesn't...) until they engage the prototype metaphasic shielding, which saves their sorry hides for about an hour. Redemption: A couple of Klingon BoP's are duking it out in their civil war. Worf's brother takes one into the corona of a star, so low that it nearly enters the photosphere--he then warps out of the system, causing a massive solar flare to engulf the other ships who had followed. I, Borg: The Enterprise D is going to hide in the chromosphere of a planet to hide from the Borg while they pick up a surviving drone. Even at .8c, they'd be there for some time. There was no apparent concern for this, but they did have to increase power to the shields to keep the radiation levels down. Suspicions: The episode featuring metaphasic shielding. Note the wording: In other words, it had nothing to do with the shielding of a capital ship like the Enterprise D. Relics: The Enterprise D is pulled into a Dyson Sphere. Damaged, they fall into a star: In other words, still in the corona. A very, very nasty place to be for this particular star. As we're about to see: In other words, the ship was fine in the corona of the star--at least for some time, but this dropped like a bowling ball when the solar flares started to crop up--in which case, the shields would only protect them for three hours. The Daystrom Institute calculated this from a minimum of 66,940 TJs to 900,000 TJs, with shields only at 23%. We also have other instances during the Dominion War, where we see BoPs being capable of survivng in the corona of a star, with no real threat, aside from the ships becoming incredibly hot and uncomfortable--but that makes sense. The intense heat was probably a problem for the smaller ships to disperse. In short, we that ST capital ships are fully capable of entering stars--the only problem coming into play is for the smaller ones and that was solved via metaphasic shielding. The only real outlier is the Descent example, but that's not a big deal since we know that Borg weapons are typically very effective in damaging the shield generators and parts, so that may have been the real issue. Next is Ricrery Ricrery, being in the corona of a star doesn't mean you'll get battered by solar flares 24/7. Solar flares start in the photosphere of a star, not in the corona. Any ship with any decent sensors would instantly realize what's happening and move out of the way. In other words, there's no evidence to suggest that this ship was bashed by solar flares, so there's no reason to assume that this contradicts the BGF. Well, yes, I know that. It's basically handwaving. Preferably they use some sort of warp based technology that makes it okay or something. But that seems to me...logically, it must require mass reduction. Otherwise we have photon torpedoes that can hit targets with their full mass while moving faster than the speed of light. Obviously, there are problems with that.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But thye'd only have to burrow into that one section and blast them away... Which isn't unlike the Imperium, but Cain may not have been thinking that. We also don't know what would happen if you say, blew up a Necron Tomb Ship and possibly causing its reactors to go... The fuel alone would probably be the size of a small modern day carrrier. The actual missile, with its delivery systems, and so forth, would be much bigger. Most warheads take up about a tenth of the actual missile (for good reason). Realistically, they'd require a massive ship bomb. Again, I treat it with skeptisim. Ie, the book it was from has the same scenario in three different books--but that one main part of the dialogue is changed. It's like Han shot first. If I absolutely had to resolve it and keep it in, I'm guessing that the Imperium ran into one really tough Hulk and met with disaster--so they armed them with some over the top technobabble missiles and after a few more encounters, discovered that said hulk was an outlier and retired the missiles from that paticular service due to cost and space required for them. Although I honestly think that the author just fucked up and meant to write 12 warheads than 122--which is just silly.
I'll mostly skip over the Trek discussion, given that I don't feel qualified to debate that in detail. IIRC the "stellar flares" mentioned in the BFG rulebook did no originate on ordinary, G-type main-sequence stars like Sol. Depending on various variables, the right kind of solar flare from the right kind of star might well be briefly more energetic than the constant radiation from the solar corona (using the assumptions of my preliminary calc). If 40k shields rely on energy dissipation (as logically, all "energy shield" technology should), that might take them down even if in sheer endurance they can weather many times the same energy distributed over a longer time. I would have to calc this to say, though, and it'd be mostly speculative in any case. I do think that broadly, with a bit of good will, the two statements aren't necessarily irreconcilable, if we are aiming for a range that can accomodate both. Kind of how the ship in the corona isn't utterly at odds with EH, although there is a significant difference. Even if you reduce inertial mass to zero (which nothing in 40k has been observed to do AFAIK), that still doesn't allow you to go faster than light; you'd still be stopped by that limit. (Light itself is "massless particles" after all.) For that you require even more exotic (technobabblish) mechanisms, like a warp drive or whatever. I don't see why the Nova cannon would need that. It doesn't fire at FTL. Sorry? I don't get what you're saying here, I'm afraid. I don't think Cain would consider that, if I'm reading the lines in-character. He's mostly ignorant of Necron tech by all appearances, and given how the figures he quotes appear much higher than elsewhere demonstrated (for the most part), probably of Imperium tech as well. The problem is, they do describe the torpedoes somewhat in the fluff and they are not *that* huge. So we would have to rationalize their size somehow. Dense reactant is the easiest way, I think. Well, it's the same with the rulebooks. They change things over time. Although given that section was not just omitted but specifically retconned, you probably do have a case, there. I don't think anything indicated the missiles were technobabble - they were described just as "nuclear", weren't they? Or "fusion" later on. They might still be rare/lost technology though; going by the Munitorum Manual again, it's "lost technology" to the Imperium to be able to manufacture explosive shells for the Guard's autocannon ... which is pretty retarded, of course, but that's how it is, with their anti-scientific STC approach to technology.
It's a general description; presumably a solar flare of any type will deal various bits of damage. It's far more energetic than the corona of the star its from. Hence my point; being in the corona of a star does not counter the point in the rule books that these ships are put at risk via solar flares. Per what star is questionable, but I don't think we're going to get very far form Type G. Yes, that would make sense, but it does put limits on the level of firepower capability capable of by the Imperium and similar powers. It shoots down ricrery's constant claims of teratons/petatons/Fist of God. I do think that broadly, with a bit of good will, the two statements aren't necessarily irreconcilable, if we are aiming for a range that can accomodate both. Kind of how the ship in the corona isn't utterly at odds with EH, although there is a significant difference. 1) Yes, we know that. I guess maybe they somehow make it less than zero?:shrug: 2) They require mass reduction to make it easier for their ships to push off. Ie, at STL speeds. Because in 40k, they use the warp to travel at FTL. Therefore, it logically suggests that they'd use the same means to fire one of their shells. They only knew about one tombship a couple km under the surface. That's probably what he was considering when he was refering to 'a couple of volleys'. Granted. Then again, what is Cain's naval knowledge? True, you can do that, but the on the counterside, you get people who'd want to argue super-dense antimatter for Trek via vi Obsession. Oh I can grabe you the quotes for those: 1st Edition: 2nd Edition: 3rd Edition: First the yield is removed, then the fusion based point is removed. You could still argue the whole torpedo point--but it seems removing the yield and then distancing itself from the original quote. *shrug* I can only assume that science was considered a heresy sometime after the Emperor bit the dust.
Here's the info about the size of the ship. Maxilla was the owner of the ship,not the name of the ship,sorry for the mistake. It was fully civilian ship.
Three kilometers for a civilian ship? Are you serious?:bugeye: That's pretty honking large. Anyone owning that ship must be successful, so them having strong shield generators isn't all that unbelievable.
Regarding the Corona thing and Trek shields: It's not even the radiation leaking through the shields that's the problem, it's the heat-generation by the ship's shields itself that is the problem, as well as general heat dissipation. Over-taxed, the shield generators will overheat and either go into auto-shutdown to 'cool down', or stay active and start to fry themselves. Eventually, if you keep the thing active long enough and manage to bypass safety shut-offs, an over-stressed shield generator will melt itself to slag. Heat dissipation also becomes a huge problem, because now that they're in the star, the amount of heat radiating way from the ship vs the amount of heat absorbed, even just through the visible light spectrum, is going to become a serious problem (and we know Trek shields don't block all bands of the EM field, particularly the visible band, though presumably they can adjust to cover that range if weapons fire comes in). We see heat building up inside the ship because the ship's ability to dissipate waste heat away from the ship relative to the amount of heat being absorbed and generated is greatly reduced (or, rather, absorbed and generated heat relative to heat dissipation capabilties are greatly increased). If the shield generators didn't build up heat faster than that heat can be carried away at higher levels, they could spike up and just run indefinitely (more or less) without a problem, as long as the power was available to do so. This will especially be an issue in the deep corona, where the temperatures are actually vastly higher than the edge of the photosphere and a small area just above it (4-500 km thick in our Sun). In a lot of ways, shield endurance is measured in heat build-up and dissipation, in addition to raw power provided by the reactors and reserves by the shield capacitors.
Some may complain that they use primitive weapons,but that's because they are reliable and cheap and take the fact that Adeptus Mechanicus are huge dicks,they keep the best stuff for themselves. I'd rather take Lasgun than a Phaser. Slavery on the ships is due the fact that it's cheaper.The Imperium recycles everything including the corpses.
*falls out of chair laughing* Yeah...yeah that's rich. Oh God that remark was so stupid that it was not only funny but rounded about and became painful. God...*wipes tears away* Yeah, a power that uses massive amounts of slave labor to load a giant gun instead of simple mecahnical arms that could be designed and built in the modern day are in fact, far more advanced than Starfleet. The people who could probably build a transporter to load said cannon. Jesus, even Jason isn't that stupid.
Oh wow, a transporter, so impressive... I mean, the Imperium makes use OF TACTICAL TELEPORTERS. In fact, they use teleporters as a weapon! Yeah, the Imperium has superior teleportation technology as well. Did I mention robotics mass produced, actual vehicles, faster FTL, faster acceleration, more durable hulls, stronger weapons, and superior shields? You're going to cry this is not true, but an utter Star Trek retard like you would cry that the Culture use megatons and the Borg could beat them.
And? So does Starfleet. Tell me when they can beam 200+ people in the span of twenty-five seconds and then get back to me. So what? Yeah, because Hoppers, Klingon tanks, and all that other stuff are in no way, vehicles. Of course, Voyager all by her lonely self replaced her own shuttles and built two Delta Flyers. The first one in the span of three days with unqualified personel. Not really. The only difference is one of navigational efficiency. The Imperium ships can travel 1,000 LY in 1-6 months due to the Emperor's beacon. UFP can travel at greater speeds while within their own well navigated areas. Their nova cannons are limited to .7c-.9c--I highly doubt they have greater accelerations. Evidence of each? Ad Hominem. And which one is the Culture? One of those silly wanked out sci-fi or something? Oh that's right, you're one of those fanboys who'd cry when the 31st UFP shows up, beats the Culture six ways to sunday, and then goes home? Or do they have megatons too?:facepalm:
Actually Imperial troop transport can cross 10,000 LY in 10-40 days.-Source Imperial Guard Codex 2nd edition And I will provide quote later.
I'm sorry, that just doesn't add up. At those speeds any sort of emergency would be responded to in days, months at the most. Just over a year and a month when tarveling across the galaxy. 40k tells us how it takes months to years for ships to gather and reach an important crusade or invasion area. Nor does it explain why the Tau aren't mercilessly crushed by the Imperium. It just falls flat on its face. 1,000 LY 1-6 months is far more respectable.
And Eisenhorn novels tell different.Tau weren't crushed by the Imperium because they are minor power in the eye of the Imperium.
