Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

?

Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. stratos Banned Banned

    Messages:
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    He's James Bond. Clue's in the name.
     
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  3. Omega133 Aus der Dunkelheit Valued Senior Member

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    Check out one thread I made a while back: "Ultimate Tournament". You can guess what it is by the name. It would be a more suitable place for this discussion.
     
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  5. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    13,938
    Yes, he would - until Kirks shirt Rips, or Picards shirt is removed...at which point either could beat the ever-living stuffing out of Bond.
     
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  7. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    964
    No one beats spaceballs!!!!!

    There goes the planet!!
     
  8. stratos Banned Banned

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    Last word from me: The point is, Bond is a myth. You can't rationalise it as you are doing. Bond always wins. It's the ineffable mystery, the myth. Film makers and public know this. Finis.
     
  9. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    The same as, say, Kirk or Picard always wins in the end?

    If they both always win...

    Besides, aside from the ORIGINAL Bond (I'm sorry, Sean Connery rocks hardcore), Patrick Stewart could take any of the Bond actors on 1v1 no problem. Hell, even Shatner could take most of em! He'd SIT on em!
     
  10. Omega133 Aus der Dunkelheit Valued Senior Member

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    6,281
    Shatner: "Stardate..........5129. We have...........found a new planet...........with green.........women. But wait,............there is a British man. He claims............to be an agent. I will..............investigate. I shall take Spock, McCoy, and crewman number six. We will.........defeat Bond...............James Bond."

    By the time Shatner finishes his statement, Bond would have won or gotten away.

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    Picard is a different story. He'd win.
     
  11. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    I'll feed Kirk's parents to him in chili.
     
  12. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    13,938
    He'd think it delightful, then build a cannon out of bamboo and fire diamonds into your heart.

    And then bang your girlfriend, just for good measure

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  13. ricrery Banned Banned

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    1,616
    Then I'd use my 20 megawatt laser gun against him and reduce him to blood.

    Not really, I have tens of thousands of troops (more than there are on any Federation capital), hundreds of tanks, and a legion of 20-100m Titans. Good day sir.
     
  14. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    And he can bombard the planet from orbit, reducing your troops to so much ash and your titans to debris... or he could, you know, go National Lampoons Loaded Weapon on ya

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  15. Apocalypse2001 System Lord Registered Senior Member

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    Hello I'm back. Had a wonderful concert tour in South America

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    Welcome Ilithi_Dragon

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    It's a relief to meet one more level-headed being who actually understands syntax

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    (Unlike a couple of other people I've encounted here, once upon a time.) I love the fact that you are very specific, and thorough. Do you have eidetic memory, like me?

    Space Battleship Yamato!!!!!!!!! oh my God ! I was trying for years to find the real [english] title, i had so many scenes in my mind, and it was driving me nuts! Thanks!

    Yes. Kittamaru makes quite a funny point. They would cancel each other out - if we excluded the fact that they are rational, fallable people heh It's like discussing a fight between Juggernaut and The Blob. The former being unstoppable (unlike the rediculous character change in the X-Men film where he was made into a mutant grrr), and the latter being immoveable. (Of course those characters can't be compared to flesh and blood characters like Kirk, Picard, etc.. )
     
  16. Omega133 Aus der Dunkelheit Valued Senior Member

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    Wait, the Federation has soldiers? (Other than the Marines)
     
  17. ricrery Banned Banned

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    1,616
    The Vulcan capital had 10,000 soldiers.
     
  18. ricrery Banned Banned

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    I'm Ciaphas Cain, doesn't work like that.

    Nope, my Titans have anti-ship weapons that can damage ships several OoM more than a Trek ship. Bye bye.
     
  19. ricrery Banned Banned

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    1,616
    Even if it took 200 ships 1 day to evacuate the atmosphere, they would be throwing out 4.4 gigatons a second, or 371 megatons per torpedo. That is why Star Trek stands no chance in hell.
     
  20. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    7,635
    宇宙戦艦ヤマト, Uchū Senkan Yamato is awesome! The English version is Star Blazers ( trust me, Uchū Senkan Yamato is so much better ). Just like Super Dimensional Fortress Macross 超時空要塞マクロス, Chōjikū Yōsai Makurosu and Robotech ( english version ) anyways, for anime, especially old anime you might want to watch the original dub, with subtitles ( if you are not fluent in Japanese, and original dubs are even better if you have a sufficient knowledge of Japanese ). The movie is going to be awesome

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  21. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Doesn't matter - remember, Fed starships don't need to be in orbit to blow the planet's crust away. You DO recall the 200,000km + range on photon torpedoes, right? Basicly, the Ent-E could be sitting beside the Moon and blowing your Titans away on Earth

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  22. Ilithi_Dragon Dragon Overlord Registered Senior Member

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    191
    I still maintain that the SW canon has not demonstrated anywhere near the firepower yields that Trek canon has demonstrated. The most powerful weapon yields we have seen outside of the Death Star (which may well be a chain reaction weapon) have been in the low kiloton/terajoule range in a handful of instances - chiefly Jango Fett's missile in AotC, and then the impact of the Separatist starship that was shot down while trying to lift off from the planet, also in AotC (the resulting dust wave is on the scale of a low-kiloton event).

    The energy weapons themselves have also demonstrated far lower yields, even in situations that would warrant higher energy yields and in which their use would be perfectly acceptable. The highest energy yields we've seen from fighters is in the low gigajoule range per shot at most, bending-over-backwards. High megajoule range is much more likely.

    The asteroid-popping scene SDN uses to get ridiculously high energy figures from TESB assume a 40m asteroid of solid iron that was completely vaporized in an instant. More accurate measurements of the asteroid put the size at less than 20 meters (the asteroid is approximately the same size as the Millennium Falcon in another scene, relative to the ISD, but the position of the asteroid, its movement, and the firing angle of the turbolaser, plus measurements from the bolt itself, make it clear that the asteroid is much closer to the camera than the Falcon, and probably notably smaller than 20 meters). Assuming 20 meters and average lunar density seems fair to me, which would put that turbolaser bolt firepower at ~10 gigajoules, with a sustained output of ~5 gigawatts. Given a fighter laser/blaster firepower of ~500-800 megajoules (0.5 - 0.8 gigajoules), this seems a reasonable firepower difference for a capital ship turbolaser battery, especially if this bolt came from one of the secondary armament cannons, which it appears to have.

    Now, this doesn't give us a firepower yield for the heavy batteries, but it does give us a reasonably range to estimate them. If we assume that the main batteries in the trenches are 10-20 times more powerful than the secondary batteries used against the Falcon and the asteroids, that puts the main SW capital ship firepower, per shot, into the 100-200 gigajoule/50-100 gigawatt range. Add in another 5x increase for the big turret guns, and you're up to 500-1000 gigajoules/250-500 gigawatts per gun.

    Now, we'll go with the higher-end figures here, and run with the firepower output calculations for an entire ISD. 1000 gigajoules / 500 gigawatts per each of the 64 big turret guns (8 turrets with 8 barrels each) or 32,000 gigawatts sustained output. 200 gigajoule / 100 gigawatt per each of the main trench guns - assuming 100 trench guns - 10,000 gigawatt sustained output. 10 gigajoules / 5 gigawatts for the secondary batteries - assuming 200 - 1,000 gigawatt sustained output.

    This brings the total energy output to:

    32,000 gigawatts +
    10,000 gigawatts +
    1,000 gigawatts =

    43,000 gigawatts from all guns.

    This is roughly equivalent to the energy released by the detonation of 10,000 tons of TNT, or a 10 kiloton nuclear bomb, every second.

    This is consistent with high-megajoule-range starfighter weapons, high-kilojoule to mid-megajoule-range weapons for light and heavy armored ground forces and ground support fighters, and low-kiloton range starfighter missile warheads, which is also consistent with the effects we've seen when Wars weapons fire hits the ground. With warheads in the ~50 kiloton range, Wars fighters equipped with several warheads would be a notable and effective threat to Wars capital ships, as they would be able to hit a ship with several missiles each releasing ~5 times the energy an ISD's entire battery discharges every second (only ~1/2 the energy would actually hit the target, but that is still a considerable amount of energy relative to an ISD's firepower). If the bomber-oriented fighters are capable of carrying, say, 12 - 16 of those missiles, that's ~1,255 - ~1,674 terajoules of energy capable of being delivered on-target, or ~30-40 seconds of fire from an ISD's entire battery (60-80 seconds from the half that could be brought to bear on most targets). Make it a squadron of such fighters, and you've got a considerable punch, especially against smaller warships.


    Also, another point limiting Wars firepower and energy resistance. In RotS, we see the Invisible Hand fall out of orbit around Coruscant, and the hull glows, melts, and sections of the hull plating get ripped off, warped, distorted, etc. by the heat and force of atmospheric entry. We also see the remaining half of the ship heavily scorched and in flames after slowing down and coming in on approach. The fact that the Invisible Hand was damaged by atmospheric entry, including thermal damage from the heat generated, proves that the Wars guns are nowhere near the 200 gigaton / 836,800,000 terajoule range the ICS book describes. ANY ship that can absorb a 836.8 exajoule energy bolt with only minor damage per bolt, would suffer NO damage burning into an atmosphere, because even assuming a worst-case-scenario of atmo-entry at 7.7km/sec from 200km up, you're only looking at ~150 megajoules delivered to the ship per cubic meter. If the ship can withstand dozens of 836,800,000,000,000 megajoule turbolaser bolts, 150 megajoules delivered over a minute or two should do NOTHING to the ship, even after having sustaining significant damage.

    The fact that atmospheric entry DOES do damage to the ship proves that the SW energy yields are much, much lower than what is claimed in the ICS books and many of the newer EU books, because if they were anywhere near those ranges, atmospheric entry would do nothing to the ships.

    The damage observed by atmospheric entry DOES fit rather well into the general range already established for the Wars firepower, however. 150 megajoules per cubic meter in thermal energy across the entire ship, coupled with the kinetic force of the atmosphere, makes a fair amount of sense for the damage we see done to the Invisible Hand Wars capital ship weapons are in the gigajoule range, especially since Wars armor has shown a particular weakness to kinetic force (which makes a certain amount of sense, given the almost 100% energy-based weaponry they face). The damage does seem a little high, though, even with gigajoule-range weapons, but then the outer hull itself was largely intact, where it hadn't been ripped off, with just some scorching damage. Presumably, the inner bulkhead materials are much less energy-resistant than the outer hull and armor, so with breaches opened by the Acclamator's turbolaser guns, coupled with the kinetic force of the atmosphere, the damage we see does still make a fair degree of sense. Presumably, too, the firepower and endurance of the IH and the Acclamator she battled would be notably lower than the much-larger ISD, which could be as much as 20 years newer (though 10-15 years seems more likely, given that they weren't just rolling off they yards and were already the fleet mainstays in EPIV), which would also bring the damage observed during atmo-entry fit a bit better with the higher weapons energy figures.

    Trek capital ships have a sustained raw energy output of 1-2 orders of magnitude greater (sustained output in the high terajoule/low petajoule range), with an effective yield against hardened targets sustained output another order of magnitude on top of that (even armor hardened against the phaser NDF effect doesn't completely negate it). Against unhardened targets, the effective yield sustained output from Trek capital ships is 4-5 orders of magnitude greater than the sustained output of an ISD's entire weapons battery. To match the energy released by just one 42 megaton Trek photon torpedo, an ISD would have to fire all its weapons constantly for ~4,000 seconds, or over an hour.

    When you consider that Trek is primarily powered by M/AM reactors while Wars appears to be primarily powered by fusion reactors (references in the movie scripts and novelizations all point to fusion, with no mention of 'hypermatter', and even if this supposed hypermatter reactor tech did exist, the energy output would still be on the order of a fusion reactor, based on observed energy outputs), this weapons yield difference does make a fair degree of sense. Trek sustained weapons yields are approximately 2 orders of magnitude greater than Wars sustained weapons yields, which fits with the 2 orders of magnitude greater power generation you get from M/AM reactions. Add in the 3 orders of magnitude effective yield increase against unhardened targets Trek weapons get (and we have no reason to believe that Wars ships are hardened against the effect in any way), and just in terms of firepower alone, Trek vastly outguns Wars. Add in the vastly superior accuracy, and vastly superior weapon range, acceleration, and maneuverability even Trek capital ships demonstrate, and Wars ships would never even be able to touch Trek ships.
     
  23. ricrery Banned Banned

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    Star Trek Figures:
    A) 10-50 megatons photon torpedoes (Rise, Pegasus, Tears of the Prophets).
    B) 1 megaton to 500 megatons (absolute maximum) photon torpedoes (Pegasus, depending on how many torpedoes were left).
    C) Sub-kiloton level energy weapons (Return to Grace, Inheritance).

    But let's ignore that and use more instances.

    A) Starship Down: The unshielded Defiant (the uber armored vessel of the fleet that can slag a planet in under 15 minutes) is struck by what could only be best described as a dozen megajoules of kinetic energy from a wayward torpedo. The torpedo manages to sheer clean through the armor despite the fact that torpedoes are not constructed from horribly dense materials.

    B) Tomorrow is Yesterday: A F-104 Starfighter manages to threaten an unshielded Enterprise with the use of a 1.5 kiloton air-to-air nuclear missile.

    C) Rise: The Voyager is incapable of vaporizing an asteroid approximately 200 meters in length, approximate yield to vaporize such a target is 60 megatons.

    D) They are reluctant to approach a neutron star to less than 10 million km range.

    E) A terawatt-range “energy emitter” (albeit using an unspecified type of energy) can overload GCS shields in less than a minute (50 terawatts = 11 kilotons, or about the amount you put an average ISD at).

    F) Federation shield power require gigawatts as of late TOS.

    G) GCS shields can't deflect the heat of atmospheric reentry, and the hull will heat up a lot even before shields fail.

    H) The Quantum Torpedoes in this video give us yields in the kilotons at best.

    Star Trek doesn't seem to be an OoM stronger than your SW ships.
     
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