A simple question to the anti-Israel faction

That's odd. I thought you said Jews also existed in 'Palestine' prior to 1948. You seemed to think they were accepted (and never mind the pogroms). But now you're citing other Jews here, in a slightly coloured light. Do you find it easier, shifting the topic as you do?

 

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I was referring to cultural acceptance of Indian Jews by Indians. As a comparison. You've given a lot of rhetoric, but I am asking you why you even think that a group of ethnocentric people with such little loyalty should get any cultural acceptance. Because clearly even 2000 years in Palestine, did not make them accepting of the local non-Jews. Just as 2000 years of "cultural acceptance" in India was not sufficient to create any native loyalties.

 

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Yes, now you are. Is the previous line of debate suddenly not profitable?

Well, Sam, first you'd have to validate your statement about Indian Jews. But then you'd probably have to return to the issue. Or perhaps you could tell us why the comparison is important. Are you making some kind of generalization about Jews? All Jews? Perhaps you could simply outline your thesis and we could discuss it.

Hmm. Assuming first that your argument is true: you mean they didn't fully accept the ones who kept oppressing them, periodically massacring them, economically and socially sanctioning them and forcing them into tiny ghettoes? And who persisted in the same right up to 1948?

Why, the putative intolerance just floors me.

This hearkens back to your synthesis about Jews in general, doesn't it?

(I'm certainly glad you "don't feel it necessary" to adopt racist attitudes. Commendable.)

 

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Sadly, nothing has to be done to Israel. Israel is completely capable of done_ing itself into oblivion. Present Israeli policies (defensive, illegal, expansive, belligerent and immoral) are not sustainable and the world is slowly turning its back on this rabid regime. With the rise of China, India and a resurgent Russia, the world is realigning itself into a multi polar sphere, where impudent military adventures are on the wane. There will come a time when Israel has no powerful friends left and a united and angry Arab fury could be unleashed. The ME is presently so unstable, this is not an unrealistic notion, nor is the threat of a modern day nuke Masada. This outcome would sadly, spell the end for Israel. And I believe, if remaining on the present course, its just a matter of time until this happens.

The only way forward is either two demilitarized states or a single bi-national state for two peoples with open borders, the separation of state and religion, universal civil and social rights, and ecumenically informed cultural reciprocity.

Don`t hold your breath. :m:

 

Jews asking for assimilation is like Brahmins weeping against the caste system. They need to take a good long look at themselves. Parsis have done it with some success, a good example to follow. Frankly as far as Arab culture goes, there is something to be said for being too laissez faire. It gives rise to too many people who think they can tell them how to live. The fools didn't even fight against colonialism, which is why it never really let go of them.

 

I don't recall that I said assimilation, necessarily. (I think overunning minorities is more your bag than mine, honestly.) But how about tolerance and not being massacred?

Still, I'm sure they did it to themselves, during that thousand year interval up to today, with their lamentable unarmed-ness and complete defenselessness against the local Islamic authority. Those dogs. Will they never learn, Sam?

 

This, surely, is an example of Sam's very point. Those darn unaffiliated and peaceful Jews, expecting tolerance. Pfft. It must be a Zionist plot.

/sarc off

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/29/hate-crimes-force-jews-out-of-malmo/

 

Bah. All too easy.

I think I shall go fry me bigger fish. Good evening.

 

Why should anyone tolerate such overt racism? Who would? Well Indians would, since we think the caste system is normal why would anyone else?

Just look at what Israel is with the benefit of the 21st century ideologies. This is progressive Judaism. Who wants something like that in their backyard?

Where in the world would anyone who treats "the other" like that be acceptable?

 

Bottom line, you cannot give me one solid reason why it is in the interests of the American people to send you their tax dollars. We have tried it your way for almost a century and nothing has changed. Peace in the region remains illusive. I think it is time to reconsider our policy towards Israel and time to keep our tax dollars at home.

 

Joe, your reply does not even remotely correspond with the post that you were replying to, and you added nothing to the discussion whatsoever.

 

Exactly! It was to avoid that very racism that Israelis formed their nation in the first place. (Or Joos, Sam?)

I know! And never you mind the incessant terror conflict since 1948. That's completely unrelated to their social development. Nothing to do with it. Not a thing.

Where in the world indeed. Of course! Nowhere!

Well.

I mean...Saudi Arabia, sure.

Ok, ok: Pakistan. Iran. Egypt.

Sure, sure: Afghanistan, too. Malaysia. FINE. Indonesia. Turkey. Iraq. The Sudan. OK? Fine. But don't think I'll admit to any more.

Malmo.

And the best way to get them to recognize they're wrong is to wage repeated wars on them in the name of religious supremacy and funnel arms to every extremist group you can find. Because if they can't live under your banner...well, then they just shouldn't be allowed to live! Obviously. Am I right?

 

This is the sad fact of Americanism and Westernism: short-term memories. The situation in Israel is nothing more than the second-most latest round of a very, very old war.

Let's hope it ends up well for everyone.

 

My short-term memory has always been malfunctional, though, so I have to rely on my long-term memory. Just trying to make a joke out of an incidental word usage error.

GeoffP, didn't the conflict between the French and the British go on for a considerably long time, also? There are examples of similar conflicts in our own history.

Basically, the best solution for the US is to court parties on both "sides" of this conflict who have a vested interest in a peaceful solution. Some of them might not be happy with the US over it, but I'm afraid that the only real solution is to imperialistically shove peace down their throats and deal with the complainers later.

 

In reality there are a couple of reasons i can think of to support Israel with aid.
Israel is the only country in the middle east that we can truly know that they will always remain our Ailles. It is very important to have that in such an unstable enviroment as the Middle East!

Secondly, as the only country in the Middle East with a stable democratic tradition and a strong human rights record, it would seem as though some foreign aid is actually going to countries that deserve it.

 

Again, you cannot support your position. So you go to a personal attack. You have given ZERO reasons other than it doesn't cost that much.

 

You just gave the classical reason used to justify US support for Israel. I was expecting/hoping that Alien would at least be able to come with this very classical excuses for supporting Israel.

How can you know Israel is truely your friend when they repeatedly steal our state secrets from us? How can Israel be our friend when they have fired upon an unarmed US Naval ship in international water not once but several times...killing and injuring a number of sailors and marines? And they have have never given a good accounting for the incident.

As for the democratic tradition and human rights record, I think that depends on your ethnicity. If you are a Jew, then I don't think you have any human rights issues. But if you are a Palestinian, you might have a different perspective about Israel's democracy and human rights record. And for some reason, I don't associate using hit squads to execute indivduals in foriegn lands as humanitarianism.

As for other allies in the Region, we have Jordan who has been a much better resource and friend than Israel. Israel is always taking from us, at least Jordan gives us good intelligence and advice in the region and does not require the financial backing Israel does.

 

Oh I am quite familar with what you have written. And you do not need to resort to personal attacks or profanity. It does nothing to improve your postion or arguement.

 

Never making it in the first place. Since thats no longer an option then the place needs to be split in 3, a city state of jewruslim (the same as the vatican) adminstered by the UN until some sort of joint goverment can be established, israil and palistine at there OLD origional borders and a SHITLOAD of heaverly armed UN peace keepers and the disarment of both sides

 

@Asguard: So you are saying that the disputed areas should come under the direct authority of the international community?