A simple question to the anti-Israel faction

For a change, give us a straight answer: what exactly do you propose having done with Israel?

 

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I hold the same as I always have, a one state solution with equal civil and political rights for all its inhabitants. The occupation is oppressive and immoral it should be eliminated by the simple consequence of affording right of return to the displaced refugees who were dispossessed in 1948 and suffrage to all those who are forced to live under a military made up essentially of foreign invaders.

Who's Afraid of a One-State Solution?

 

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I definitely question the wisdom of my government's unquestioned loyalty to Israel's interests at the expense of our own (especially when Israel doesn't return the favor).

I have no ill will towards the people of Israel, but the American government should focus on pursuing American interests.

 

Well, if you would try making your case without insulting the intelligence of anyone who lives West of Dubai, you might find that more people are willing to hear you out. Personally, I think it would only work under a three-level constitutional republic. There is too much risk for abuse against minorities under an absolute democracy.

 

Amen!

 

Interesting perspective. The question is can both groups live together in peace?

I have always been uncomfortable with states like Israel which values one group of citizens above another.

 

@Fraggle:

You do realise that religious Jews oppose Zionism, which being centered on state rather than God is actually an atheistic ideology? Religion has forever been hijacked by atheists, Jews as a religious group had no need of Zionism, while Israel as a state has destroyed Judaism in a way that 2000 years of Torah learning could not. In fact, right up until Zionism, Jews lived with non-Jews in Palestine for over 2000 years.

Do you think Tzipi Livni is religious? Or the Russian Lieberman is? These are the face of left and right Zionism in Israel.

Do you think they keep the Sabbath?

 

Well, the idea behind the peace talks is to try to navigate Israel and West Bank into a position in which they can feasibly work on building a unified state, assuming they have any inclination to. It takes years for two separate cultures to build themselves up to that level of accord. The European Union is a striking example of how republics are built, not declared.

The European Union, in spite of the fact that it is functionally a very loosely federated republic, still regards itself largely as separate, unique political entities. They can't even tax people directly. Their government just has a very different shape and scope from what we are used to thinking of as a government.

However, the US is not an absolute democracy, sea to sea, either. In political reality, we are not "one nation." Our government is the federal constitutional presidential republic of the United States of America. The layers of our government range from the federal level to the local HOA.

It just wouldn't work to try to merge the whole region into one government, all at once. It would have to played according to political and governmental realities.

 

Does it matter if there are racists who do not want to do the right thing? Should that be an impediment to supporting what is right?

You live in a country where native Americans were burned alive and blacks were lynched. Is it possible for people to get along after a history like that?

 

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However, we are still discussing whether to send the black people back to Africa, so ignorant white people will finally stop using accusations of racism as a daft ad hominem argument. In this country, you could prove that the world is flat by accusing people of racism. It is just as like the "imperialism" argument: it is overused and retarded.

 

Some of them. Most favor it - or used to (second thoughts are growing).

Most of the actual Jewish opposition to Zionism has come from atheistic or "indifferent" Jews, as well.

Many of the Zionist immigrants to Israel are quite religious. Most of them are at least casual believers.

Religion has forever been hijacked by the tyrannical of all kinds. That's one of the major problems with it, at least among the modern monotheistic forms - it hands an incoming tyrant (and there is certain to be an incoming tyrant) a large body of pre-conditioned and pre-selected and pre-organized followers, eager to regard unquestioning faith in nonsensical and megalomaniac authority as a virtue and clearly displaying the code words or concepts by which they may be manipulated.

The way the US did it - imperfectly - is by having one of the groups be overwhelmingly powerful for several generations.

And even then we had riots in our major cities, oppressive and dangerous expansion of police scope of action, the National Guard necessary to escort little kids to school, for a while.

 

Israel treats its muslim minority far better than all of its Arab neighnors treated their minoirty. Look at the plight of the Coptics in Egypt, or the Kurds in Turkey, or even of the Greek Orthodox in Turkey.

The Israeli Arabs that excepted Israeli citizenship after the War of Independence, peacefully coexist in Israel and are fairly assimilated.

Also, everyone who pleads for the plight of the Arab refugees after 1948, why do none of these people discuss the plight of the Jews who after 1948were kicked out of their homelands in the Arab world?

 

Frankly I don't really care about what happens in Israel or Palestine. I think the US should withdraw all support for Israel as Israel does nothing to support the US. The US taxpayer contributes billions of dollars each year to Israel and has nothing to show for it, but some Israelis blowing smoke up our ass.

I prefer my ass smoke free. Perhaps if the US withdrew all financial and military support for Israel they would be forced to come to some accord with their neighbors.

If Jews in this nation and around the world want to support Israel with their dollars, fine. But they should not use and we should not give dollars from our public coffers to support a theistic state that spies on us and has attacked our military in the past and never given a full accounting of same.

 

Whereas I think that it is simply a matter of human decency to try to prevent a human rights catastrophe.

Let's do some math:

US population: roughly 300,000,000

Proportion of Americans who are taxpayers: 2/3

Taxpayer money going to Israel: about $2,000,000,000 annually

So let's do some math:

$2,000,000,000/(300,000,000*(2/3))=$10

Do you have Paypal? I do. I am a starving nearly to death college student, but I would be happy to reimburse you, on behalf of the entire State of Israel, if ten dollars mean that much to you.

Shouldn't we be more concerned with trying to figure out a way of dealing with this issue that gets the fewest number of people killed or run into poverty?

 

A couple of things, first your numbers are wrong. The US provides 3 billion dollars per year plus loan guarentees. Two, not everyone it the US is a tax payer. A little less than half of that 300 million figure you quoted are actually working. So that alone doubles the number you provided. What are the loan guarentees worth?

And you are missing the point. Why should the American tax payer be forced to support a theocracy period. The United States government does not provide financial support to the Catholic Church/Vatican. So why should it provide financial support the Israel? What value do I get for my tax dollar?

I will tell you what I get. I get a associated with a state that does not comply with United Nations Mandates. I get associated with a state known for its blatent violation of international laws (most recently the assination of and individual in Dubai). I get associated with a nation that has no interest in preserving anyone or anything but a Jewish state. I get spied on by this entity who is receiving my tax dollars. And I get my unarmed naval ship in international waters attacked and servicemen killed. (USS Liberty). I think that is more than enough.

Perhaps if the US stopped supporting Israel financially, she would learn to live peacefully with her neighbors.

I would rather be spending that money on the US debt. Assumnig that the amount the US spends in 3 billion per year, that equates to about 1.6 percent of the annual interest the US pays on its debt. And if I had my way, I would much rather keep my 20 dollars than give it to a charity like Israel.

 

It was not possible before: hence, Israel.

Very amusing discussion so far. "How, oh how can Palestinians live peacefully alongside Jews when Jews separated themselves from Palestinians because Palestinians wouldn't leave them in peace?"

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Odds are, you don't even make median income, so I would probably owe you even less than ten dollars. Haha. I can split hairs just like you. It's not hard.

No. You are missing the point. The US would have to spend over a hundred times what they are presently sending into Israel for it to even vaguely affect your lifestyle. The point is that you presented me with the most money-grubbing, bean-counting, YUPPIE-ass argument that you could possibly produce. Don't expect me to believe that's really where you're coming from.

Are you being retarded on purpose? I think that you are because you know, just like I do, that Israel is ruled by a secular government. You are making up blatant hogwash again. I think you have no place in this discussion if you are going to fuck with people.

You aren't going to tell me jack shit because you have taught me not to trust a thing that comes through your typeface. There is no scenario where I trust the next thing you say after you pretend to be an ignorant asstard as an obscene, artless way of trying to fuck with the issue.