What Constitutes Acceptable Suicide?

Three days ago I lost a friend, someone I knew for 10 years, to suicide. He hung himself. I feel numb, shocked, and sad simultaneously. But this event has also raised several questions I've been struggling with:

Why is it acceptable to choose when to die when you are suffering from physical pain, but not mental pain?

Why is mental pain seen as something less serious when in all actuality, mental and emotional pain leave the deepest scars?

Since my friend killed himself, people have been screaming and crying things like "Why, God, why?" and "God, he's so selfish" and "Well, you know he had a drug problem so what did you expect?" and I feel just disgusted.

All anyone can seem to focus on is how "selfish" his death was. Yet, I still don't understand the difference between assisted suicide for terminally ill patients. I thought I did. I even voted for the bill to be passed. But now I can't seem to see why no one can understand how debilitating and humiliating depression and addiction is. Yes, it is sad he took his life, but he died on his OWN terms. Isn't that the same as assisted suicide? And seeing as he did have a drug problem which probably would have killed him if he kept at it, then why is it "selfish" that he chose to go when he wanted to?

Who gets to decide when it's "acceptable" or "okay" to take your own life?

Why is it selfish when someone, who is in such great pain that they can't even express it to the people they love, takes their life? Is it just selfish because WE, the people left behind, are hurt? Wouldn't that make US the selfish ones, since the people who are dead are at peace? And why if someone is sick with cancer can they kill themselves and everyone calls them brave, but if someone is sick mentally and they kill themsleves they are called cowardly and selfish?

Why is mental/emotional pain seen as such a "weakness" or "taboo" in society?

Please discuss respectfully and try not to be sexist, racist, or unusually idiotic in any way

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Because of the stigma atached to mental illness. I honestly dont think people belive it exists or if they do that its somehow the persons own fault that they have one. You dont see people being blamed when they have a cold but yet people get blamed for suffering depression or having a drug adiction because of mental illness. Just look at the sorts of things people say to those who suffer depression, "what have you got to be sad about?" ect. I have never herd anyone say to someone with a "physical" illness "what have you got to be sick about?". Suicide is the way the illness of depression kills just like a cardiac arest is the way CVD kills or respitory arest is the way asthma kills.

I had this same argument with my partner who works for a car insurance company. She said "hey we can denie this claim because it was self inflicted" and i asked her "would you denie a claim because someone had a heart atack and died?, suicide is no more self inflicted than an MI is" (actually less so because an MI is probably the result of bad food and excersise). The same goes for drug adiction, why are we legally punishing people for the results of an illness? Its stupid but thats the way stigma works sadly

 

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I agree with you. There is such a stigma around mental illness and addiction...as if people CHOOSE to be that way...but people who are sick mentally are just as sick as someone with lukemia...neither can cure themselves or help themselves without the right treatment. Mental illness is REAL people! Christ! I just can't believe he is gone. Gone, gone, gone. But you know what's strange? My friend was murdered three years ago almost to the day that my friend killed himself (Beware the Ides of March) and I was way more torn up about the murder then the suicide. I don't know. Maybe just the fact that S. chose to go when he wanted to...that in some fucked up way I understand it. My friend CJ was murdered, but S. chose to end his suffering. IDK. I just don't see why some people think that there are "special" types of suicide that make someone less "guilty".

RIP S.

I'll miss your hugs and smiles and you calling me "beautiful" everytime you saw me no matter what I looked like. You deserved better, but you made a choice. I don't think you were selfish. I think you did what you had to do. Not everyone may agree, but some pain is just to great to endure. May She hold you. Blessed Be.

 

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What Asguard said - the stigma attached to mental illness. People find it hard to empathize, IMHO. When they see someone with an obvious physical injury or sickness, they immediately feel sympathy. They don't have to try and understand. You know how if you see someone with, say, a fractured limb, and you think of your own bones being broken, you instinctively flinch? It's like that. But with mental problems, you have to work a bit harder to understand. You have to get inside someone's head, imagine what it is like to be them. And most people just don't want to. It involves asking yourself disturbing questions. Easier to just call them selfish or a weakling.

I also think it's hypocritical to call suicide selfish. It's considering your own feelings rather than theirs. And to expect someone to keep going with fighting their depression just for your own sake, to spare your own feelings, that is deadly selfish, and I cannot stand to hear those sentiments.

That's how I feel about suicide too. It sucks that they were that far gone, but on the other hand, they found peace, they're no longer suffering.

 

Is it? Or is it simply that mental illness is less visible and therefore less obvious than a physical disability?
Unless you have actually suffered from depression or whatever it's hard (very hard) to understand the effects - whereas a severe physical illness is "visible" and better related to.

 

What exactly is the underlying presumption here? That the guy was obligated to continue to live in agony so that these people wouldn't have to deal with the emotional trauma of having someone they know die? It sounds to me like they're the ones being selfish...

 

People keep pretty good lids on themselves (those who do) so they react to others as if it was all that stuff they keep a lid on in themselves. It is threatening for many people to realize that life could suck so much - without one starving or being held in prison and tortured - that someone would want to die. I think people often implicitly think they could live other people's lives better. They hear that someone is in a lot of emotional pain and they think this means what they felt when they failed to get a promotion - that's a crass example, but I do think this happens. Further I think people tend to assume that their own abilities to navigate emotions are available to other people. Or their own inability to actually know their own emotions.

But then, given all this, I also think we should accept what is also a natural reaction. In their pain they get angry at the suicidal person. They may move through this. I would probably get pissed off at a loved one if they killed themselves at some point in my grieving.

 

I agree with this. IMO, most people have felt physical pain in some way within their lifetime, so it is easy (or easier) to understand, or imagine, what someone suffering from a physical ailment is going through. Mental "pain" such as depression is not visible (except in cases where it is manifested in the physical form with cutting or something like that), so people cant see the extent of the pain. This makes it nearly impossible to imagine, especially if someone has never been to that "rock bottom" place. This can cause someone to look down on someone who is suffering from a mental disorder, and it is also the reason most people will look at suicide as selfish.

Now....I have mixed feelings about the "selfish" argument. On one hand...I dont believe a person who is suffering in their minds should have to stay on this earth just to please those around him/her. Those people would not likely stay and suffer for him/her if the tables were turned. BUT............................IMHO, If the person who is contimplating suicide has young children, I feel he has an obligation to them before he does to himself. My mother passed when I was 17 from natural causes, but it displaced me and my 7 younger siblings and gave us an array of our own emotional issues to deal with as a result. I know ppl will think, "well, if the parent is depressed, what kind of role model with he/she be?" This is a good argument, but losing a parent is hard on children financially and emotionally, and could very likely send a child down a slippery slope into his/her own battle with depression. The depressed adult shouldnt bring his/her children down too.

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You can refuse any treatment given by a doctor unless it's court ordered, right? Well if so then you'd in almost every case get laughed at for signing a DNR at a hospital for depression or many other mental illnesses. In fact being depressed can void your DNR if you actually have to be resuscitate. I'm not sure if i am right and i'm by no means a doctor. But i did sleep at a holiday inn last night.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_not_resuscitate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Self-Determination_Act

http://academic.udayton.edu/LawrenceUlrich/315psdame.htm

 

The answer to this depends on who you ask and what ethics they follow. Personally, I can't imagine taking my life, but I don't have physical or mental pain. In American society, taking one's life is not good. They just don't look at it right. It causes too much pain for people, and this is how they deal with it. Really, it isn't much different in some ways as him being taken by an accident or murder. One could even look at society as the killer or the car that swerved instead of slowing. It is a tragedy and should be viewed like any other victim.

People want to victimize themselves and say it was selfish. No, they are being selfish, we must excuse those who are in pain including those who say bad things. The thing is a life ended, so the world should mourn and move on with life. Above all, life should be celebrated (in different ways), even life that is ended.

 

jessie, do you see now? even people who empathise make the fundermental mestake of assuming its a CHOICE, is it a choice to die from cancer? of course not and nither is suicide. it is the leathal conclusion of a disease, no choice, no ethic or morals involved.

 

oh wow. A friend of my son's hung himself last week. He was only 19.
My son is more angry than sad right now.

 

First, I am very sorry for your loss.

Thanks to the anonymity of the internet, I feel like I can share my own experiences.

Years ago I lost a girlfriend to suicide. I went through different phases of grief as most people do, but without a doubt my dominant feeling about the situation was and still is anger. We did not have a secretive relationship--I knew she had moments of weakness, and she knew that if she gave into them I would be destroyed. She chose to inflict that destruction.

Understand, I am not ignorant about depression and mental illness. I am certainly more familiar with these things than I would ever choose to be. And, I am somewhat ashamed to admit, the desire to follow suit after my partner was practically irresistible for a time. I do believe this is where some of the anger stems from--if only I'd been as uncaring as she was, I could have left the pain behind too. What kept me here (a good thing, in retrospect) during that horrible aftermath was the unwillingness to destroy my family.

So, I was angry because I felt betrayed. But here is another thing to consider: this was a person who I relied upon, who I needed. She was my strength when things fell apart. Suddenly, in one thoughtless moment, she had not only wrecked me but taken away the only thing which could have eased such pain. Simply put, I could not afford to be sad because I'd lost the only person I'd privilege with such vulnerabilities. So, I got mad. And, incidentally, that did the trick and I got through it with minor cuts and bruises.

I guess my point is this: grief is incredibly complicated. People don't really get to decide how they react to tragedy. I think it's a shame that these people you refer to cannot muster the self-restraint to keep potentially hurtful feelings to themselves. At the same time, lets not assume that they are simply ignorant or selfish.

 

I am so very sorry for your loss.

To answer your question there is no really acceptable form of suicide, none that can be justified a priori. What there is, are limited options. Everyone, given the chance, would prefer to live. But people fear loss of independence, loss of control. When that fear becomes overwhelming, it supercedes our instinct to survive.

 

would you have blamed her if she had died of breast cancer?

the problem lies in the word, commiting sucide is a myth. People dont COMMIT suicide, they DIE of depression and thats how it needs to be treated, talked about and refered to.

 

Asguard,

Obviously mental illness comes in varying degrees of severity. However, to imply as you do that suicide is never an act of will both diminishes accountability and belittles the struggle of chronic sufferers who do not succumb to their illnesses. I don't think equating depression with a terminal illness is helpful or appropriate.

If a loved one came to you with thoughts of suicide, is this what you would tell them? "So sorry to hear that you are dying of depression"?

 

i would treat it the same way as if someone said they had cancer or any other medical condition. if the "threat" was imidiate i would call an ambulance, if it was not imidiate i would refer them to a GP to get a referal to a psycologist.

the fact that some people die from it doesnt "belittle" those who suffer anymore than some people dying from cancer "belitles" those who survive or suffer for years with it

 

Asguard is right. The word *committing* suicide shouldn't be used because 'committing' denotes a crime.

My stance on suicide, in a nutshell: You know when someone is in extreme physical pain, they start acting weird? Scream, thrash around, pull a messed up face, maybe yell things like 'Get me some fucking morphine'??

Well, suicide is like that. The guy in extreme physical pain isn't thrashing around and yelling just to annoy people because he's selfish. He is doing it because he is in extreme pain and the pain impulses are overloading his brain and his normal function is gone. Same goes for suicide.

 

Like "committing" to a relationship?

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