Are all empires doomed to fail?

Discussion in 'History' started by desi, Apr 16, 2009.

  1. chris4355 Registered Senior Member

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    everything has an end.
     
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  3. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    It could be argued that an empire that set itself up to rule a group of solar systems (Empire of 10000 Suns scenario, say a millennium from now) then the civilisation could be seen as eternal. There are a number of caveats to this, though.

    1) It relies on a perfect and instantaneous communication system between all the worlds in all the different systems, which is completely beyond our technology presently--but in 1000 years, who knows what we'll be capable of doing?

    2) All stars move about in space--even if an empire has a perfect communication system, as set out above, the lords of the empire have to be content with the knowledge that inevitably, some of 'their' stars are going to eventually stray into the home space of an adjacent empire. Ultimately, the stars are going to diffuse completely through space, and the traces of ancient empires will be found on worlds that are far removed from their original position when they were first colonised.

    3) Buildings don't last--ideas do: the physical ruins of an empire are left behind, but the ideas to which they gave birth (or which gave birth to them) remain in existence. They go underground for a while, be re-emerge downstream in time; perhaps in a different form, but it's the same basic idea.
     
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  5. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    I suggest that if you're going to have an empire based in the galaxy, as I set out in the preceding post, you would be looking more at the survival of the Human species, rather than a particular part thereof. I'd say that no matter what the imperial ambitions of a particular state, on the galactic-empire scale it would be of small importance.

    As I pointed out previously, the maintainence of a galactic empire requires the existence of an as-yet uninvented method of almost instantaneous travel to knit the empire together. Without that, we're just a collection of solar systems and planets with very little in common except that we have the same human species spread over all of them.
     
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  7. superstring01 Moderator

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    Damn. You stole my thunder.

    ~String
     
  8. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    By then we will be advanced enough to be able to leave our solar system


    Yes an empire can survive forever, and this effort would be best if

    a) the original founders achieve immortality

    b) technological progress is a must

    c) those under the empire are kept at bay

    d) the grunt (the muscle) of the empire is not human (i.e, ambitious and rebellious), but instead docile and completely obedient.

    Also even if the universe ends we can survive, if we can access other universes. By the time the universe "ends" we ought to be able to harness enough energy to do so.
     
  9. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    So your empire lasts for ever if;

    a) Human aging is controlled, slowed down so people live ca 300 years, say.

    b) We keep updating our transport and information tech in particular, because it's efficient communications, both physical and electronic, that keep people in touch with each other.

    c) Divide and rule on a Galactic scale.

    d) A vast army of robot labourers to do everyone's bidding.
     
  10. Acitnoids Registered Senior Member

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    If you believe history repeats itself then yes all great civilizations will come to an end, empire or not.
     
  11. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

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    Again, nothing is forever. If you assume 10^-50 chance per year that the empire will fall, then the math says that, over a long enough time frame, it will fall. Eventually, even at those odds, the math will hunt them down and beat them like they were red-headed step-children.

    Besides, it does not seem that the universe as we know it will last forever, so even leaving the solar system won't save us in the long run. If the universe does keep expanding forever, then this "Stellar Era" ends in 100 trillion years...and we discover that our universe will live on much longer without stars then it did with them. The current age of light and life will turn out to be a wonderful aberration in the history of time, lasting an incredibly brief flash of a period, relative to the to whole history.

    Then comes:

    • the Degenerate Era (lasting until 10^37 years from now)--the stars cease to shine under their own power and we are left with brown dwarfs, white dwarfs, and the occasional black hole and neutron star.
    • the Black Hole Era (lasting until 10^100 years from now)--after proton decay destroys everything else, only black holes remain, slowly withering away due to hawking radiation.
    • the Dark Era (everything after 10^100 years). Almost nothing exists but radiation, the occasional positronium atom, and, perhaps, an eventual phase transition that changes the laws of physics and, perhaps, allows for a new kind of universe working under different rules.

    It's unlikely that any empire survives the Stellar Era, and by the end of that they'd find themselves stretched to produce energy. They could huddle around red dwarf stars, but most evergy sources would be tapped out. To survive, the Empire probably needs to escape the universe ityself at that point.
     
  12. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Which is what I suggested.
     
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    There's a really fun book of short scifi stories you may like called Vacuum Diagrams.
     
  14. thinking Banned Banned

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    absolutely
     
  15. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    absolutely not.
     
  16. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    OK, maybe we should redefine the word 'forever'; in light of the fact that most species seem to have an average lifespan of ca 10 million years, and we seem to have lived out about 200,000 of those years. So we've got a while to go, given the averages, and we could spread a long way in the next 10 million years or so. The real point of all this is that eventually, the Human race would be spread out over vast areas of space, and would also be integrated socially and genetically with many other galactic species. Ultimately, therefore, the Human race would become so attenuated in every sense of the word that they would become merely an ancient stratum in the genetic and social history of the Universe--hidden by later additions, submerged by the spread of subsequent, later empires as they expand...
     
  17. EndLightEnd This too shall pass. Registered Senior Member

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    Civilizations have cycles, just like everything else in the universe.

    We can say we will learn from the past, but after awhile we forget why we needed the lessons of the past as we start to learn new ones. Convictions fade with time and lessons never stop.

    The only hope for a lasting (I mean millions of years, not indefinite) civilization will have to be based on unity. Unity with nature, other men, complete strangers, etc...
     
  18. Balerion Banned Banned

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    No, an empire cannot last forever, because there are too many variables. You have to consider the different rulers, the changing political climate of the world around the empire, changing technologies, effectiveness of dissenters, effectiveness of government propaganda, wars, economical stability, etc., etc..
     
  19. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    We should be able to agree that so far, the statistical probability of enduring empire is near zero.
     
  20. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    But not at zero, thus it is possible for an empire to endure forever. All of the factors that contribute to instability and weakness would have to be dealt with.
     
  21. thinking Banned Banned

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    I disagree

    with wisdom

    any empire can last as long as they like
     
  22. terrybrookman Registered Member

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    Name one empire that has lasted on this planet. If there is a galactic empire they do not seem to want us for any reason. Then again they could be carnivores and it is just about time for the round up..............Moooooooooooo
     
  23. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

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    They do want us. We are their prison planet. Don't you know your scientology?
     

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