Numerology problem.

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Igor Trip, Apr 11, 2009.

  1. Igor Trip Registered Senior Member

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    137
    Because it's the sort of 'Proof' that can convince passersby to convert to Islam.

    I spend a lot of time on message boards disproving the science claims made for the Quran (it's a hobby) and a lot of converts have admitted they became Muslim after reading about them.

    Now, they are easy to disprove, but here I'm stuck. I need better maths.

    So I need some tips on why the numbers look better than they are.
     
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  3. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Start a counter-religion based on Winnie-the-Pooh or something equally stupid.
    Promote that on the board and get HIM to refute YOU.
    Then ask why it's "real" for the Quran and not for WtP...
     
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  5. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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  7. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Suppose you had a non-muslim friend who suddenly started attending mosque everyday and became much more conservative in appearance and behaviour, and you asked them what's up with their recent changes. If they respond to you "I converted to islam because of something I read on a message board", do you know how ridiculous that sounds? If you're going to make a life-changing decision that will dramatically alter the way you live for decades to come, you don't do it based on a few hours of skimming message boards.

    A rational person interested in confirming these claims would look deeply into these arguments, find external sources, look into counter-arguments which can be found in abundance, and seek proof that this numerology stuff isn't just a fluke caused by fanciful selective interpretation and an arbitrary counting scheme (which is exactly what it is). It's like agreeing to buy a used car without properly testing it and checking into its repair history, only the standards applied to islam are even weaker and the effects go beyond an $8000 hit to your bank account. So if a bunch of lost creatures want to seek comfort in a fairy tale without properly analyzing it, let them buy their crappy used cars and complain to the dealership when they find things aren't working out the way they expected.

    Numerology is not easy to disprove, that's why it's stupid. Any number of cooked up schemes can lead to "miraculous" coincidences when you're prepared to play fast and loose with the interpretations. If you want to prove or disprove the concept from a mathematical perspective, you need to find some way of testing a virtually unlimited number of possible numeric schemes and a virtually unlimited number of symbolic interpretations to accompany them. Then you would have to see whether you can't get even better results by applying these schemes to different books of similar size and depth of description.

    You might be interested in looking up things like "Moby Dick code" and see what sorts of results have been found there, because I personally have seen more interesting results from that obvious joke of an exercise than I have from your muslim friends.

    For one, it looks like your friends didn't even make an accurate use of the Quran in the first place- see Enmos' link, it looks very interesting indeed. Again though, some people out there are meant to get suckered, they're just asking for it- you don't owe it to them to interfere, only to have pity on them when they inevitably get screwed over.
     
  8. Igor Trip Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    137
    You'd be amazed at the number of sites and books claiming the Quran is full of scientific miracles.
    And they are being used to 'Prove' Islam.

    If someone says "Here is proof of X" and you can't disprove it then it looks to any rational person like the truth.

    That is until someone else provides a better explanation.

    All I really need is help in understanding all the possible options there are. This is my main tactic.
    If there are 23 possible ways to find the number 23 then if one is found it's no miracle.
    If he uses extra numbers then that will increase his chances of finding coincidences.

    But I need help with the maths.

    That refers to a different claim which I have already pointed out to him.
    I don't need to prove someone else's numerology is wrong, I need to prove his is wrong.

    And don't think rational people aren't convinced by this kind of argument.
     
  9. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

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    4,222
    Igor Trip: what you really need to know is how many possible ways there are to search for an arbitrary number such as 46 in the text of the Quran. That number is VERY large, and hobbies such as this have many, many disciples looking and analyzing the text in thousands (with modern computers, maybe millions?) of ways.

    This reminds me of an email making the rounds after 9/11...

    From the above "coincidences" it is crystal clear that 9/11 was DESTINED to happen! (uhhh, or something)

    The point is, any number can be found to have a "special" significance. I was going to suggest searching pi for counter-arguments but I found a nice little webpage that is already written. Unfortunately they only search the first 4 billion digits. An interesting project would be to re-write this to continue searching the digits until you have found the string you are looking for. Anyway, after a few minutes I came up with this:

    That's right. God does not exist; PI said so.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  10. geistkiesel Valued Senior Member

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    2,471
    They say that numerology, astrology and lucky horse-shoes work, even if you don't believe in them.:shrug:
     

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