No I simply do not believe in putting a Band Aid when there is a hole in the dyke. The long and short of it is, we live in a world where everyone should be considered equal in terms of rights and opportunities. Ethnocentric or tribalistic states should not be the goal. Why would I agree to a Judeocentric Israel when I think Pakistan was a mistake?
So what were the circumstances? were the children just shot out of hand? were the children in a house containing military targets? were the children being used as human shields in a ambush of the Australians. If they were shot out of hand, then yes those who did so will face charges, after investigation, then trial and conviction, but if it was incidental to the war, they will face nothing but their own conscious.
Well your avatar is Gromit. Is Gromit the Australian Defence Force chief? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
and you really think an Palestinian theocratic democracy over the corpses of the israelis is apart of the belief you claim? Now your just ignore it, I want your stance on child killing and you refuse, is it really has horrible as I think it is? yeah like when a suicide bomber blows him self up in a school or on a bus or intentionally tries to kill civilians and children, or when a crazed "freedom fighter" crushes in a child skull, thus are all "collateral damage" to you?
Well according to you, if the propagator is punished, it makes it just. At least the suicide bomber kills himself. He does not make tee shirts with pictures of pregnant ladies with a target on them and joke about it in cafes as he goes on living his [privileged] life. At least the mother of the child does not have to wonder if justice will ever be done. Those Australian troops? They will go home and hug their children, after killing the children of other people. And they will be greeted as heroes.
SAM you didn't answer the question, what were the circumstances of those deaths? Who were the propagator, I have a sneaking suspicion that the propagator, of the incident were Taliban?, Al Queda?
Ah heck. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you just are daft. If removing Israel from the map meant there would peace I would support it. I don't think that's a given, though. I don't think you're an anti-semite. Nor did I say that. In fact, what I said was that you come off as an anti-semite. You're intentionally twisting words. Yes, there is. Israel has not gone rogue. A 'rogue state' is one that purposefully and fully separates itself from the international community a la North Korea. Israel is many things, but it's not a rogue state. Wait... so now you agree with the Iraq/Afghanistan wars? Or you just support war in general? I think you're point is that if one supports war in Iraq, then one ought to support an invasion against Israel. But I didn't support the war in Iraq, so... What's your suggestion for how to dismantle it? Start a war? You honestly hope that America invades Israel and starts a nuclear war? China and India warred over borders for hundreds of years. With a few small exceptions, the situation is pretty reasonable nowadays: Not ideal, but reasonable and peaceful. You think the two-state solution is doomed to failure anyway, so we can't really discuss this point. You're ready to throw in the towel on peaceful co-existence. If you were in Israel or Palestine you'd be in the minority. You don't read very well, do you? Some nation X's immigration policy is not a concern of mine. I couldn't immigrate to Syria without some serious money or business to do with them simply because my name is Cohen. And I honestly don't give a shit. If that's what Syria wants to do, I couldn't care less. If Iran makes it easier for Muslims to immigrate than anyone else, I couldn't possibly care less. I'm happy my country is fairly open about those matters, but I really couldn't give a shit if Muslims have an easier time going to some country than I do. You're original question, which I even quoted in case you forgot, was whether or not there is a problem with Jews having a free pass to citizenship. I said no. Your question WAS NOT is there a problem with Palestinians being refugees? If you had asked that, I would say yes. I'm going to say it again because you don't seem to have understood: Sam: There is a problem with Jews being given a free pass to citizenship in Israel. Tyler: I disagree. I don't care if a nation favours one people over another. Sam: See! You don't have any problem with Palestinians being refugees!!! Do you honestly not see how stupid you sound? Do you honestly not see how your logic is bizarrely twisted??? (1) I don't care if Israel lets jews come in as citizens. (2) I care deeply and consider it a massive injustice that Palestinians live as refugees in their own homeland. These two claims are perfectly consistent. For example, Israel could let in all jews as citizens and all palestinians. They won't. But they could. Which means that the two claims are logically consistent. Or, for example, they could close down all settlements, hand over East Jerusalem, give back the Golan and move back to '48 borders, continue letting in any jew who wants to come in and let the palestinians form their own nation where they are not refugees. Both letting in jews and letting the palestinians cease being refugees are perfectly possible together. Jeez, louise. If you disagree with anything I said just now, please prove the following. Disagreeing with Jews who are not native to Palestine have no automatic right to live there. necessarily implies you see nothing wrong with native Palestinians being refugees because they are not Jews.
Oh, and by the way... (1) I'm pretty sure I'd be required to call myself a Jew in order to get Israeli citizenship. I'd have to prove that I'm in some small way religious. And I'm not. So I'd need to lie. Which I wouldn't do. Also I have no intention of even visiting Israel let alone living there. (2) A vested interest is when you can derive some benefit. I derive no benefit as I have absolutely no intention of moving to Israel. If you disagree, you'd have to prove that I have some desire to move there. Good luck.
When did I say that, I was talking about morality not punishment. Samir Kunta blow himself up? justice does not bring her baby back, in fact it might not even prevent other mothers from the same horror. So let me get this straight, if the westerns do (assuming they do in fact go out and kill innocent children intentionally) it that makes alright for the Palestinians to do it? two wrongs make a right, two wrongs make a right, two wrongs make a right, no matter how many times you say it does not make it so. No SAM you continue to squirm, why won't you just admit how you love killing children of your enemies?
This is where you and I can agree to disagree No simply I am quite fed up of coming off as an antisemite everytime I say something about Israel. It is a rogue state, its only because of the cover of "antisemitism" that it receives support from those in the international community who pretend its not occupying and starving people against international laws and that it is not accumulating WMDs. What do you think would happen if it was challenged, really challenged on these issues? No I am saying that generally the response to invading your neighbors, occupying them or getting WMDs warrants treatment by military liberation. Especially if there is a history of blowing up British citizens and US ships. Except when its Israel. A one state solution. BDS Israel until it is forced to acknowledge the rights of native Palestinians. China and India have had borders and pretty genial relationships between academics and scholars for thousands of years. Have you actually been to Israel and Palestine recently? 70% of Palestinians support a one state solution and the Israels have just voted in a government that does not believe in the Palestinian state. Except that the conditions of the Palestinian refugees are not unknown to you. Okay, so basically if I say that Jews should not get automatic citizenship, I should also say, because native non-Jews are refugees. Except that even then, I would have a problem with giving citizenship to any Jew. Just as I would have a problem with restricting citizenship from any Jew.
I remember not so long ago when you were ready to fight for them. Or at least, you thought you might. What changed?
I agree that the cover of 'antisemitism' and American's broad support of Israel has essentially made it capable of muuuuuch more than it would have been otherwise, and kept it much more in the international fold. That said, words have meanings, and you can't twist them just because you want to. Do you not understand that it hurts your cause, Sam??? Every time you leave an opening for legitimate dispute, you make your case look weaker. Even if - as in this particular instance - it's not a central point and not really important. A rogue state is one which is outside the international community. There are very few of these. Israel is not one of them. That is the total end of the story. You can hypothesize that were it not for American support Israel would have become a rogue state. (Probably a very legitimate argument.) But it is, at present, not a rogue state by definition. I'm still a tad confused. Do you support all-out war against Israel? I understand that Israel has been held to a total double-standard. I agree. But I'm not sure what your point is other than that. I'm really quite open to this idea. It worked fairly well in South Africa. On the other hand, it hasn't worked in DPNK, it didn't work in China and it's not working in Sudan. So... It's hard to tell. At the very least I think the question is not so black and white. I would unconditionally support a ban on purchases of Israeli military equipment. There was an article recently on 9 ways to pressure Israel, I'll try to find it for you if you haven't read it. Where you and I may disagree is on the process. I think diplomacy needs to be handled a bit slowly. It'd have been nice if this process had started 20 years ago. But it didn't, and we can't rush things just because it didn't. I think a gradual set of restrictions and tightenings is necessary; you can't just jump in to all-out ban mode. Also, even if Obama wants to do this he needs to contemplate the political reality at home. Completely ostracizing Israel would possibly lose him the next election to a Republic who would be like Bush, thus undoing any good work he could have done. Again, I think you may be a bit idealist about it. But I'd like to hear your ideas. And many border disputes. True. I'm not sure about the 70% of Palestinians part, but the Israel did become more hawkish. Maybe I was wrong about that part! Ah. Well that's where you and I disagree. I have no problem with a nation choosing some ethnic group, religious group or whatever and then saying "these people can get in easier." I can't see any difference between that and saying rich people or educated people get in easier. It's all just singling out groups and every nation does it. I agree that saying "no person from group X is ever allowed in" would be wrong (insofar as it goes against any concept of humanitarianism), though. But I still wouldn't care for it much as my business.
If I thought a concerted effort was being made to conduct a genocide I'd probably still be willing to fight. If it's a matter of Israel wanting to be bigger, kill Palestinians and seize power, I would rather shoot myself in the foot than join up.
I think with Israel it will be easier to blockade from within. ie. put other Jews at the forefront of blockades. This is for several reasons. 1. Much of the Israeli hawkishness and paranoia is due to a sense of being victims, which is entirely because of the Holocaust Industry. They feel that everyone gangs up on them because they are Jews. 2. Jews can address the issue in a way that would be culturally sensitive to other Jews, bringing in concepts of tikun olam for example 3. Thats the only way it will work I think the most urgent need is for Israelis to step out of their paranoia and recognise what they are doing. Thats the way I would approach it. If you go back to my ancient posts, you'll find the exact same notions. Israel is a problem of Jews not the rest of the world, its a problem that Jews must solve.
It was something I had all ready said but you ignored in your rather poor attempt to brand me a racist. you still need to but you won't do a good job of it. It was something I was always saying. You were the one who wants to prevent a viable Palestinian state to come into being. You are. You just don't see it in those terms. justice is just. Whether one man or an empire the same ideals apply. When everyone in the nation is condoning the continued denial of rights of the Palestinians than yes they are all guilty. whats this forefathers shit. The people directly responsible are still alive in a lot of cases. those who support a governments actions should pay some of the guilt and costs of its crimes.
Wow, what do you know! Yet another Israel thread started by SAM, and yet again it's reaching an ung-dly amount of posts! Great discussion, as usual. Somebody put that twerp out of her misery and ban her already :m:
