How many languages / What languages do you speak?

The thread is interesting.
French or Italian seems easier because you use international phonetics when learning them, but we Chinese use Chinese phonetic alphabets, i.e. Chinese Pinyin. There are four tones (the 1st tone: neither falling or rising; the 2nd tone: rising; the 3rd tone: falling, then rising; the last tone: falling) and there is no verb tense.
I have been learning English, and last year I learnt little Japanese. After that, My English sound strange. It took a long time for me to recover, however, I nearly forgot Japanese.

 

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And I also find something interesting (or sad?): Friends from US or Europe speak Chinese better than those from Japan or Korea. For example, if they went to Beijing for a long time, they Can speak fluent Beijing Dialect. It's difficult for a Chinese to speak pure English. Many Chinese- including me- learn English, but are poor in speaking. We can speak, but are shy and nervous to do that.

 

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Thank you Moderator. Thank you for your encourage.

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yeah... my Chinese teacher said one of the things she liked most about Americans was that they didnt criticize her for her English mistakes. We can understand just about anyone, and most Americans dont really mind having to interpet imperfect English, because we hear it all the time.

 

You mean.... you hear it from americans or from foreigners? The first case would be quite shameful!

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English is my native tongue, and I'm quite good at Latin in school, but I wouldn't consider myself fluent, amateur at best.

 

I can't count the number of times I've been told I speak more standard Chinese than the locals. I live in 广东 province (south east China) and of course any local speaks Cantonese, and when they speak Mandarin it's with a very heavy southern accent. Seeing as how the Maoists chose Beijing as the only proper Chinese, I've been forced to somehow learn a Beijing accent while living hours and hours away from anyone who speaks like that. But I think I can do it pretty well.

I've been terrified of what learning Chinese will do to my French (it's nearly killed any Italian I had left in me). Thankfully the local francophone says I still have a better accent than the other anglos.

I think you should revise this oft-used comment. The beginning grammar - or early stages - is very easy and simple. But as you learn more Chinese the "grammar" becomes more a trick of complex vocabulary that often has little discernible meaning but radically changes the placement of words. As a friend of mine is fond of saying "中文没有什么语法。" (Chinese has no grammar at all).

This is true. I think because we grow up with so much outside media, it's not quite the same in English. That is to say, I've seen many Brits, Yanks, Australians, etc. on television all my life and talked to many of them as well, so it's not hard for me to understand their accent. But someone in Guangdong may go their whole life never hearing a Xinjiang person speak.

This same thing has happened to me. I've eaten with a local friend's family a few times and his grandfather speaks poor Mandarin - mainly Cantonese and the local language. But he tries to speak Mandarin and it comes out as 1/3 Mandarin 1/3 Cantonese 1/3 Huizhouhua. I can follow him pretty well, but one of the northerners who ate dinner with us didn't understand him at all.

On this point I completely disagree. I think English is a fundamentally more difficult language to reach conversational level. Yes, the tones are hard, but realistically after about 4 weeks of practice you should have that down.

But to speak English without making 15 grammar mistakes in one sentence takes Chinese students nearly 15 years of study. I pulled it off in Chinese in a half a year. This is partially because I live in China, but more so it's because I didn't have to spend day after day learning how to conjugate or which particle to use or... The fundamentals of daily speech in English are much more difficult to get down than Chinese. It's once you move into the advanced stuff that matters become hard in Chinese. I could probably study Chinese for ten years and still be more or less incapable of reading Confucius.

But the Chinese start learning English at around 4 years old. Still, by 18 many of them can only come out with "How are you?" and the next four sentences of a conversation before they stop understanding anything at all.

Mind you, this may be way more of a statement on their education system than on the language.

This is the second biggest problem following the education system. People are way too shy and nervous. No one seems to realize that this hurts their ability to learn more than anything else.

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I've now reached the level where I can easily switch to thinking in Chinese. The interesting recent development is that I can listen to one language and act in another. So, for example, I have no problem watching a movie in English, following the story, and at the same time translating to the girl sitting next to me. Or I can listen to English news while writing Chinese homework. Or watch a Chinese movie while marking my students' English test. Though I think my writing quality goes down when I'm going multi-lingual.

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Fraggle, I wonder if you have any good information regarding the HSK(汉语水平考试) test. It's very difficult to find online sources for old tests. As well, I've heard rumour that the test system has been completely changed. Do you know anything about this?

 

Oh, I meant to add....

I've been seeing a girl recently who speaks English about as well as I speak Chinese. (Though she has the horrible habit of nodding as if she understands my English even when she doesn't know what the hell I'm saying.)

We seem to switch back and forth from English to Chinese with almost no rhyme or reason. Halfway through a sentence one of us will just switch to Chinese and the other will follow and then the next 20 minutes of conversation are in Chinese.

But last night we tried something different. She suggested we go an hour with her speaking Chinese and me speaking English. We couldn't do it. After about 10 minutes I wasn't thinking and just responded to her question in Chinese. She scolded me and we went back to our respective languages. But then ten minutes later she was making fun of me for losing in our little game of language wars and she started speaking English! I had to point out to her "hey! You're making fun of me for failing, but you're speaking English right now!" She hadn't even realized.

It made me start thinking that I have become so comfortable now with Chinese that I don't even notice a transition when I switch from one to the other. My Chinese is still far from fluent, but my fluency rate is at a very comfortable level. (That is to say, I may use the wrong word, i.e. 表示 when I should say 表达, but the meaning is clear and in my head it makes sense.) Before, moving to Chinese was like going from smooth sailing to a mountain range. Now it's just like switching lanes on the highway.

 

I think you misunderstood. I'm well aware of the prevalence of Mandarin. However the Beijing accent has not always been considered the "finest" or "most standard" accent. That was a relatively recent development. From Beijing to Tianjin you'll hear a difference. It's not a difference of dialect or language, it's a difference of accent. It's like the French-speaking community choosing Parisian accent as standard. And then making fun of the Quebecois for speaking differently.

Yes. And if you live in China you will be mocked for speaking anything less than Beijing standard. And you'd be especially mocked for speaking like a Guangdong native.

I agree. This is a major reason it's difficult for the Chinese to move up to conversational in English. Their innate sense is that the macro-rules are not so important. So they don't try particularly hard to get them down. My problem was the opposite; I obsessed over the rules no matter how many times my friend would say not to worry and that I was perfectly understandable as it was. Of course, my problem is much nicer than their problem!

True. Although thanks to the popularity of a certain Chinese English language course book the majority of adult Chinese think that they should speak English at Italian speed.

I can't tell you how many arguments I've had with Chinese where they insist I'm wrong. They are absolutely certain that because this Chinese fellow is wealthy, he must be right. The fact that English is my first language doesn't seem to dissuade them. They're pretty sure this guy is right and that "fluent English" means "really fucking fast English".

Little more than barely veiled elitism. In many ways the Cantonese speakers sound more pleasant. Though I like speaking with a northern accent and want to speak standard Chinese, I still break into laughter at the sound of northerners some times. It reminds me of the Swedish chef from The Muppets. "Ar de dar dar dar scar blar..." Just a whole bunch of "arrrrr" sounds thrown in every other word.

My southern Chinese ex-girlfriend and I used to make fun of it all the time, though always in a light-hearted sort of way. The difference with northerners (and I've spent time with northern gals as well) is that when they speak of southern Chinese it's not light-hearted. They genuinely consider them to be lesser people.

Fair enough. I'll put it another way. I could probably study for 10 years and still not be able to read a normal adult book.

Is your wife not Chinese? Have you stopped learning Chinese?

 

i learnt japanese through highschool, and my teacher had the same experience, that when faced with another foreign language, (for me especially if the person was asian) i'd automatically respond/think in japanese. the teacher was fluent (lived in japan for years) and when he went to france on a holiday he kept speaking japanese on accident. anyone else get that?

 

I speak English fluently and Español fairly well. I'm in my third year of high school Spanish class, not so much because I like Spanish (although I do) but because I want to be a linguist, probably a translator of some sort. At some point I want to learn Russian, because it interests me, and Swedish, because I am Norse by heritage, but these are second to any languages that are more likely to require translation.

 

I learned a little bit of German a while back, and my teacher commented that I had a "high german" r-- instead of the glottal r I make a kind of trill in the back of my throat that sounds a little bit like the Spanish erre. Actually, when I first started speaking Spanish I used this German r instead of the Spanish rr because it was easier (my Spanish teacher couldn't hear the difference

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The book series is titled 'Crazy English'. The man actually speaks English quite well, and his pace of speaking - while quicker than my own - does not make him difficult to understand. My problem with his method is that he instructs all students to speak at the same pace he does. His philosophy is that speaking quickly and loudly will make you look more confident, and therefore make native speakers assume your level is relatively high. This is true in some respect: speaking loudly and confidently does fool me into thinking someone's level is higher than it is in reality. However, for students below intermediate level - or below advanced level and speaking about difficult topics - speaking quickly robs me of being able to predict their speech. If their pronunciation is so awful as to render certain words completely indiscernible - and it is - then speaking faster just creates a mess of gargled syllables.

Definitely. The thing I'm most confused by is the Chinese insistence on doing everything without help and their general belief that in any dispute between a native-speaker of English and a Chinese-speaker of English, the Chinese-speaker is correct. Children and teenagers don't seem too plagued by this disease, but it certainly runs rampant among the adults. Our English school constantly has new signs and information put up, usually written by the local staff or the marketing department (a mere 5 meters away from my desk). Not once have we been asked to edit. Not once have we been asked for a proper translation. Consequently, there are dozens of English mistakes up around the school. Only one staff member - who I've become quite good friends with - seems to have either the intelligence or modesty to ask for help; ironically, he is the best English speaker among them*. Moreover, I've had numerous arguments with students where they insist their Chinese teacher/friend is correct and that my English is incorrect. I've wasted far too much time in class going to find a book and showing them exactly why what they are saying is wrong.

I understand that certain times a student will feel an aspect of the language makes absolutely no sense. (In Chinese I'm still baffled by what can and cannot be called 漂亮 (piaoliang). I've been told by some I trust that a 'city' cannot be '漂亮'. Why? "Because it's too big." But you call the country 漂亮? Isn't a country bigger than a city? I don't get it. On top of which, I've heard other local friends use exactly that word to describe cities.) But how are they so certain that the local teacher knows more about English than the native speakers???


*The Chinese cultural norm that asking lots of questions makes one appear stupid is probably the greatest hindrance to English language learners in this country. Without fail the best students ask more questions than the others.

 

dutch, french, english, german, i can speak rather well, writing is a other matter lol

 

I would never be so fooled as to think someone was a native speaker when they are not. But I can honestly say that if two students come in with roughly the same speaking level, student 1 sits upright, pronounces clearly and forcefully, looks relaxed and doesn't seem nervous, whereas student 2 is the polar opposite, I'm much more likely to put student 1 in a higher level class. Mind you, this is only speaking about a short interview (5 minutes or so), and after only or two full classes I would be able to pinpoint both students' level precisely.

I did in fact take linguistics in university and have been keeping up to date with pedagogy for ESL, so I'm familiar with the terms and norms. However any lower-level student who is trying to mimic this fast-speak will not produce such difficulties in their sentences. Primarily because they have no choice but to think in between each word. The difficulty understanding them comes in the singular word or two-three word groupings. I've one student in particular who speaks individual words or small groups at break neck speed and then needs a 3-4 second pause while thinking of the next word. I've tried very hard to encourage her to change, but she's adamant that I'm wrong.

An oft-repeated claim that I still disagree heavily with. I understand that the 'four tones' make it easy to claim that pitch is used entirely differently than in English, but it's not the case all of the time. Many a textbook attempts to show this difference by saying that amazement, questioning or disbelief can be indicated by tone in English, whereas the tone is set rigid to the word in Chinese. But this horribly overlooks the numerous 'sentence ending characters' used which have no tone but can be used with any tone. Also overlooked is the fact that even within a rigid tone structure, Chinese speakers will start a sentence at a higher or lower tone than normal and proceed following the same structure but at a different pitch-level.

Pitch is used differently, but it's not purely phonemic.

But then why pay a foreign teacher?
(In fact, many people don't go to foreign teachers specifically because they don't believe there is any use.)

Awfully frustrating, though!