News from Gaza Part 2

Discussion in 'The Cesspool' started by S.A.M., Nov 20, 2008.

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  1. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    That's typical of asymmetric warfare, the Apache did the same thing, and had a reputation for being fierce warriors.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2009
    spidergoat, Jan 6, 2009
    #421

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  3. madanthonywayne

    madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    That's an insult to the Apache.
     
    madanthonywayne, Jan 6, 2009
    #422

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  5. Billy T

    Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, but not 30 of your nearest relatives also. Currently the kill ratio of the retaliations for the rockets is about 100 to 1.
     
    Billy T, Jan 7, 2009
    #423

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  7. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    How then should they deal with the rocket attacks? The technology is good, but still not good enough to pick out one specific person from an urban area. I can't think of any war where innocent people weren't also victims.
     
    spidergoat, Jan 7, 2009
    #424
  8. iceaura

    iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Clean up the mess, go to the elected government of the perps, and demand action.

    Then you send people.

    I can't think of any war where the innocent victims were the innocent victims of the good guys by 100/1.
     
    iceaura, Jan 7, 2009
    #425
  9. Billy T

    Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Buffalo asked me that question several years ago. So I thought about it a while and replied. For a quick summary of my answer and links to more details, see post 285 of this thread:

    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2131138&postcount=285

    Too many are quick to post there biased pov and very few actually think about the problem as I did years ago. Even when the defensive alternative is well explained most simply ignorantly state it would not work or is too expensive etc. with no facts, other than their erroneous opinions.

    After I suggested the CIWS part of the more complex plan, I learned that in 2005, CIWS was installed on trucks to protect the "Green Zone" in Baghdad. Prior to 2005, mortar shell did occasionally fall inside the Green Zone, but not one has made it thru the CIWS since. Mortar shells are much smaller and denser (hence much faster falling / harder to hit with the CIWS's bullets) than the Gaza rockets which are basicly just empty tubes (where the fuel was) and a small warhead.

    I am all for protecting ALL Israelis. The current high kill ratio alternative does not do that. I am also for avoiding killing of anyone not close to a site that launched a rocket within the last minute, but very much for killing those that are.

    As I have pointed out in several prior posts, if Israeli artillery shells fell on that site (part of an integrated radar /computer "counter battery" system also described in the earlier posts) and ONLY on that site for say five minutes then one of two things would soon be the pattern:

    (1) ALL innocent Palestinians would rapidly leave the area where the bad guys were setting up the inclined rocket launchers.
    OR
    (2) The bad guys would tie some women and children to stakes first in the area they were about to set up the rocket ramps. This would very rapidly cost the bad guys the support they now enjoy as they try to extract some small measure of revenge for the hundreds that Israel now kills as "collateral damage."

    No one has yet (in more than three years) pointed to any reason why Israel could not practice near perfect defense* for a few generations - until the cycle of violence and mutual hate could die out. Few even think there is any alternative to Israel's current (and obviously failing for 50 years as the problem grows worse) high kill ratio policy.

    --------------
    *Far fewer Israelis dying or injured from rockets and suicide bombers than at present. (Plan has mine field, backed up by killer dogs for the lucky one who might make it thru the mine field, sonic listening device for detection of the tunnel makers etc.)

    READ The PLAN - See if you can find a flaw in it. WHY NOT PROTECT ALL ISRAELIS? - Instead of just killing many more Palestinians - unless the true Israeli objective is the same "final solution" (genocide, nearly finished now, on the Negev Bedouins) and / or forced resettlement to other Arab countries as most of the Sinai and some of the Negev Bedouins have done.

    Their nomatic culture has been completely destroyed already as those still surviving are confined to one of seven concentration camps in the Negev and their animals have been killed. No one cares about the Bedouins. - So they are not very news worthy, but the BBC did do a special on them, which I watched a last year or perhaps two ago now.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2009
    Billy T, Jan 7, 2009
    #426
  10. Crunchy Cat

    Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Do you have to be Muslim to mis-interpret reality like this?
     
    Crunchy Cat, Jan 7, 2009
    #427
  11. retaxis

    retaxis Registered Member

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    If you were a palestinian would you be scared of israeli bombing you if you were innocent? i would be.
     
    retaxis, Jan 7, 2009
    #428
  12. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    And what of the man or woman who shoots the civilian to get to the "lowest forms of fighters"? Who does so deliberately?

    Let me put it this way. If the Israelis knew that a Hamas leader was hiding in a primary school, full of children going to class, they would bomb the crap out of that school and refer to the deaths of the children as collateral damage and attempt to justify that it had to be done. At some point, someone has to take a moral high ground and in that regard, the Israelis have failed dismally.

    For example..

    So they militants were near the school, so they bomb the school where people had gone to seek shelter and aid? They're attacking the UN as well now?

    Really? Shall we look at what you said again?

    Keeping the above 2 goals is a big asset for the IDF, because if either of those 2 conditions are not met it would mean the end of the IDF operation. As soon as the regular population of Gaza begins to REALLY suffer, not just to be scared and have no electricity, but I mean, really suffer - like starvation, mass civilian deaths, disease spreading, G-d forbid, all of Israel's friends would be forced to withdraw their support for Israel

    Just like in 2006's Lebanon war, hitting that building in al-Qana killed mostly a bunch of kids, has turned the tide of public opinion, and Israel was forced to end its operation and go through yet another useless and unenforced UNSC resolution 1701.
    ​

    Doesn't look that way to me. To me you are more concerned with "Israel's friends" abandoning Israel if the Palestinian civilians "really suffer". So far, we have had mass civilian deaths, lack of food and hungry children due to an absolute lack of aid entering Gaza. You're not saying how horrible to that, are you? No, you're defending the lack of aid and then denying their identity by referring to them as "make believe Palestinians".

    I guess it is easier to support the mass killing of a people if you deny they actually are a people.
     
    Bells, Jan 7, 2009
    #429
  13. Crunchy Cat

    Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    If I were a Palestinian, I would be swimming over to Egypt... but then again, if I were a Palestinian in Gaza, I would have gotten the fuck out when Hamas took over.
     
    Crunchy Cat, Jan 7, 2009
    #430
  14. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    And how would they have done that? The movement of Palestinians is under the strict control of the Israelis.
     
    Bells, Jan 7, 2009
    #431
  15. Buffalo Roam

    Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Gaza has a boarder with Egypt......
     
    Buffalo Roam, Jan 7, 2009
    #432
  16. Buffalo Roam

    Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    No, problem.
     
    Buffalo Roam, Jan 7, 2009
    #433
  17. Crunchy Cat

    Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    And an ocean.
     
    Crunchy Cat, Jan 7, 2009
    #434
  18. Buffalo Roam

    Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Now don't get me wrong your CWIS system would lower the number of impacting round but-----

    Green Zone---Again protecting a limited area, far less the than the area of the Gaza, with a low number of incoming targets, 1 to maybe 4 rounds, on a common trajectory.

    So how successful was the system against multiple targets, and at what rate of saturation on the target zone.

    To over come that, you husband your munition and do mass launches, 25 rounds, on multiple trajectories, from multiple sites in less than 5 seconds on a discreet target.

    What is the cycle target to target kill rate of a CWIS?

    The cycle rate for the computer control is possible, but what about the mechanical reaction time of the system.

    That type of coordination and rate of fire with rockets or mortars is not beyond the capability of Hamas, in point of fact I believe that they could easily increase that rate and saturation to several hundred round in 5 seconds.

    If my information is correct the AGIS system is designed to defeat 3 incoming bogies per engagement, but I don't know what the saturation level of attack is.

    How well the system would do against 9 incoming targets in a 5 to 10 second saturation, would seem to overload the system, too many target, for the mechanical reaction rate of the system.


    Again, as you react to better defend the method of attack, the attacker adjust to better over come you defense.
     
    Buffalo Roam, Jan 7, 2009
    #435
  19. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Buffalo Roam:

    My problem is not that they want to destroy Hamas. It is that they seem relatively unconcerned about the loss of innocent life involved in achieving that aim. Apparently, that doesn't particularly worry you, either.

    As far as I can tell in terms of international law, Israel's current incursion into Gaza cannot be considered a legitimate legal act of self defence.

    The Qur'an is not a terrorist charter.

    You take the views of extremists and ascribe their views to all members of the Muslim faith. It's equivalent to taking the views of the Spanish Inquisition and assuming that all Christians approve of the burning of witches.

    And to you, anybody who isn't a Christian is a second-class citizen - especially Muslims, it seems. So, how are you different from them?

    The reasons that the people of Christian nations are in a somewhat better position politically than those of Muslim nations today are much more complicated than that. They lie primarily in the European Renaissance and in the Scientific Revolution of the 1700s. Although Protestantism played a role, the Protestants didn't save anybody from religious fundamentalism - just look at all the born-again Christians trying to take over America right now. What saved the western world was the gradual change in the view that the religious realm should be held at arms length from the temporal (political) realm.

    Christianity, too, went through the same thing, just a few hundred years ago. Christian slave owners quite happily enslaved and terrorised non-Christians (and even other Christians) for centuries.

    How many times do I have to repeat myself. I do not support Hamas or terrorism of any brand.

    Change hearts and minds and Hamas becomes irrelevant. Instead of attacking the Palestinian people, how about accepting their right to exist and dividing the land between Israel and Palestine? How about helping the Palestinian people, rather than oppressing them?

    You tell me. You asserted that because the bible does not mention Allah by name, therefore Yahweh and Allah must be different. A silly argument. Agree?

    Why do Mohammed's supposed crimes of 1400 years ago count for so much, while the crimes of, say, the Christian crusaders of 800 years ago count for nothing in your eyes? If you insist on being obsessed with past wrongs, at least try to take a balanced view.

    What you might find interesting is to consider the Islamic countries that aren't fighting. For example, consider the largest Muslim nation in the world - Indonesia. Why isn't it fighting the rest of the world, if Islam automatically means war with non-Muslims? What's your explanation?

    Name a non-Christian nation of the world where first contact with Christians has not led to attacks on and subjugation of the non-Christians.

    It depends on which particular brand of Judaism you adhere to. Certainly there are fundamentalist Jews, just as there are fundamentalist Muslims and Christians. All of them regard those who do not share their faith as second class citizens.

    Sure. For some, if you don't accept Christ then you reject him and are doomed to go to hell for all eternity. You can hear it preached in Churches across the US of A every Sunday.

    That's an educational problem.

    Zionism is the desire for and belief in a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Are you claiming that nobody wants such a thing? That would be another silly claim to make.


    ---

    It's the same reason the US military controlled the media during the invasion of Iraq. They only want positive propaganda. Allowing the media free rein risks negative publicity, such as when innocent civilians are killed. The US learnt its lesson in Vietnam, and the US has not allowed that degree of press freedom in any war it has participated in since then. Israel has learnt from the US experience.

    ---

    And when the Russians were hounded out of Afganistan by US-supported fighters who also engaged in covert warfare, I suppose you would have said the same thing, would you? Let them come out of hiding and face the Soviet helicopters in the open, with their hand weapons!
     
    James R, Jan 7, 2009
    #436
  20. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    Yes.. But how would they have gotten out? Walked through? Driven through? Crawled? What part of 'their movements are tightly controlled by the Israelis' escaped you?
     
    Bells, Jan 7, 2009
    #437
  21. skywalker

    skywalker 3 @ T M 3 Registered Senior Member

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    Actually the Police should drop a nucler booomb on your car.. thats the right attitude right? Drop a nuke, destroy you with your car and plust thouands more... just becuase you were shooting randomly...

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    skywalker, Jan 7, 2009
    #438
  22. skywalker

    skywalker 3 @ T M 3 Registered Senior Member

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    All of it...

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    skywalker, Jan 7, 2009
    #439
  23. skywalker

    skywalker 3 @ T M 3 Registered Senior Member

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    Disgusting, your mental state is pathetic.. keep justifying the genocide.. Jesus will love you for that...

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    skywalker, Jan 7, 2009
    #440
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