Star Wars vs Star Trek

No they are not holtzman lasers they are just normal everyday lasers, albeit a little week by trek and wars lasers

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Okay, first of all, Friend of Foe only woprks if the ship is broadcasting it own FIFF information. You would also need to actually identify the incoming ship. We have no evidence that tyarkin even let Alderaan know what was coming. Reason being that they would not have wanted the King of Alderaan broadcasting on Holonet that he surrendered unconditionally. That would hurt the regimes credibility.

As for shield interaction, during certain scene where a shield is in atmosphere you can indeed see shield interactions. Also in most casses the impact on SW shields are so rapid as to have any shield interaction be practically too fast for the eye to see. The lighting of the planet by the laser is a popular misconception, however whay does the glow spread from the impact point rather than being cast over the globe like a flashlight. Why does the glow stop before it reaches the horizon. Why, despite the enormous ammounts of energy being poured in was there no climatic response, even the clouds under the beam strike were unaffected at first. This all points to shield use.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

I thought their lasguns used the holtzmann effect.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

I'm sorry Scott, but unless you can provide evidence of there being a shield without using an example that is highly debated, it isn't valuable. That doesn't even mean that Alderaan didn't have a shield; what I and others are contesting is that it was up and interacted with the Death Star. Furthermore, even if there was a shield, we have no idea how it would interact with the Death Star's superlaser. For all we know the beam cut through it like a hot knife through butter and some of the energy was being spread out through the shield grid or the atmosphere.

So it proves nothing even if you did get your way.

 

You're saying that most of the time the interaction is too fast to see... even though a FRAME BY FRAME DOES NOT SHOW IT. Yet you think that because you see an anomaly in the FRAME BY FRAME on Alderran, it was shielded.

Anyone ELSE see the fucking problem with this argument?

 

i thought that too. but after checking the Dune Wiki, the Holtzmann effect is nowhere to be mentioned as a part of the laser weapon. he may be right.

 

1. hahahahahaha, Alederaans's destruction on the Holonet, would be exactly what Tarkin and Palpatine would want. free publicity and rain of terror. if they did not know what was comming to them(and someone said they raised the shield because they recocnised the threat) they would not raise the shield. it would be like "hay there is the emperors new weapon that can wipe us out, let's let them know we are not on friendly terms." if they knew, you just said they would broadcast which they did not. so which one is it? the thingy is Bail Organa knew what the DS was and most likely it's capabilities.

 

Alderaan destruction yes they would want that. Especially since as Tarkin said in novelization, it's defenses were among the best in the Empire. However the King of Alderaan offering unconditional surrender to save his planet then it being blown up would be the OPPOSITE of what the empire would want. As it was Palaptine had to spin it that he had no choice but to destroy Alderaan. An unconditional surrender would completely blow that story.


Also prior to the destruction of Alderaan it was largely thought impossible to take down a planets shields from the outside without a fleet of vessels and a specialized seige device known as a Torpedo sphere. These woere actually very recognizable so the people on ground might not have known the shields would be useless.


BTW it is pointless to wonder if the shields are turned on or not, the visuals support a shielding system so there was a shielding system. End of story.

 

2. quote:

the term "Torpedo Sphere" most commonly refers to the 1,900m diameter battlestations built by the Loronar Corporation, which Bevel Lemelisk only began to design shortly before the Battle of Yavin

as noted they entered service after BoY. if Bail was on Alderaan he knew it was the DS. and he'd knew the firepower set against them.

1. Alderaan was not under uprising, they offered no resistance thus they could not normaly surrender. they were a peacefull world blown up for no aperant reason but demonstration of resolveness. no pleads would change this.

and it's far from being the end. 1 out of 4 editions shows a visual that YOU interpret as a shield reaction (despite the fact even the novel and the script do not mention it specificaly). the reason behind such a shield being active is a major issue here (the motive even more). not to mention is it questionable if that kind of shielding (if present) would stop landings at all... :shrug:

 

Quotes? I don't recall any of this happening in the movie. Perhaps the novels of the movie...the script...anything?

No, I'm sorry.

First of all, planetary defenses as we saw on Hoth are not able to hold back physical objects from entering the area. Now, Wong himself claims that the shield could, but rather just created a canopy, which is wrong since if it did, a 200 GT blast would have sent a shockwave large enough to hit the base from just outside the shield and would have had more than enough room to fit under the shield.

In short, that leaves us with the shield on Hoth being much like the ones we saw on Naboo; which explains why said ships didn't just vaporize them from atmosphere and why the soldiers had to move into the shield to fight. Hell, the fact that they could move through it just supports the argument. This is further seen during the Battle of Yavin; where the fighters pass through the Death Star's shields, once again proving that physical objects have no problem bypassing most Imperial defenses. This makes sense, as we know that most of their weapons are energy based.

This means that any shield as large as the Death Star's (120 kilometers is a pretty large shield I'll say) is going to be unable to stop physical impacts. This explains how a shield might thwart a fleet, but the Empire is able to keep its hold becasue the Empire has soldiers and machines of war.

It was only the top secret facility of the Death Star that had KE shielding of the size approaching planetary defenses. And said Death Star had to use a shiled generator from one of Endor's moons. That suggests that the craft did not have the ability to either hold the shield generators or generate that kind of field or power on its own. Clearly KE shielding is possible, but anything larger than an ISD is exceptionally rare and only in the hands of the military.

Except said "visuals" are argued to be atmospheric reactions from the Super Laser. Now if we had an example of the Death Star blowing up another planet without that effect, you would have a strong argument, but the fact is we don't. We see the Death Star fire and destroy one planet. We have no idea how said planet is supposed to react to the weapon. For all we know, that's part of the process. The fact that neither the movie, the script, nor the novel mentioned a shield flashing is clearly an indication that there was no shield up at the present time.

 

who cares
I dont give a crud as per wether alderaan had a shield or not. what difference does it make? it got blown up end of story.

Moving on, Borg cubes are vastly bigger than a star destroyer. We all know that the borg don't value individuality at all. They really dont give a crap about one cube. They are perfectly willing to blow up a cube and the tens of thousands of borg soldiers on it without a second thought. So you know what, worse comes to worse, the borg cube will ram a star destroyer, and lemme tell you, a cube that massive could do some serious damage. And also, according to a star wars geek friend of mine, the typical shields are not physical, they are ions, an ion will not block a physical object, like say, 1 million tons of metal crashing into your ship. The kind of shield that do block physical objects are supposedly rather rare and hard to use in star wars. So i gotta say one cube versus one star destroyer, the destroyer is pretty screwed. Besides the fact the cube can be obliterated to about 22% of the original cube being left and can still be operational, yes this is true look it up.
So truly if it comes to it, a star destroyer could not survive a ram attack by the borg. Besides the fact that the borg cube can take much more punishment and keep on going.

Also star trek does have a planet destroyer device, the specifications are somewhat unkown, but it is called The Cascade. My guess is that it works similarly to a nuclear device but somehow it can split stable atoms, so once the reaction begins it not only splits the atoms in the bomb itself but it splits the atoms on the entire planet going in a cascade. And by the description of the remains of the planet it seems correct. The few survivers are claimed to be, bodily fused i different ways or severly burnt

 

The Cascade? What's that from?

 

I think he means this

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Metreon_cascade

 

Did anyone else watch the Clone Wars movie? Isn't it hilarious that the droids required binoculars to see at a distance?

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

On the contrary, various races in the Star Trek universe own methods of planetary destruction. The Metreon Cascade is certainly not the only once in existence in STU.

Outside of the fact that the tiny Defiant is capable of roasting the surface of a planet (many Trekkies/Trekkers referenced the episode earlier in the thread), there are a number of weapons including:

Cardassian Dreadnought Missile - ST VOY: Dreadnought; enough power to incinerate a moon

Thaleron Radiation - ST: Nemesis; destroys all biological life forms in range, from localized to planetary

Tri Cobalt Torpedoes - ST: VOY: Caretaker; Voyager used two of these variably empowered subspace weapons to vaporize a station many times it's size

Terraforming technology - (various Star Trek episodes/movies); while not a weapon per se, the effects of releasing something like the Genesis device on a populated planet would be excessively devastating.


While these uses might not necessarily be strictly 'canon' as certain hard core Warsies attempt to enforce (stating that Trek races never actually used or demostrated the willingness to use these abilities), the power of the various technologies is canon, and since we ARE speaking of a non-canon confrontation, it is not unreasonable to propose the applications above.

 

Incorrect, it was used on a moon and the moon was still there. All it did was scramble the molecules of all living organism on the surface of the moon.

We have never seen the Defiant perform such an act, so sall we have is speculation. And since thirty larger and more powerful vessels could barely scorch 30% of the crust of a planet in several minutes, i seriously doubt the speculation is correct.

But what size moon Deimos and Phobos are moons and are only 10km and 6km.

Yet is blocked by even the slightest amount of shielding.

An unshielded space station. Later one Tri-Colbalt devie explodes outside a weakly shieled base and barely stripped the shields.

Provided you can build another one as the ONLY person to make it work is dead. Also provided the device is not aimed a shielded planet or ship.

Actually if they were no willing to use them in canon confrontation like the Dominion War, then they would not use the period. Remember we are having both sides act as they would normally in the situation. Having them act differently would defeat the real purpose. Otherwise we could claim that the Empire simply uses the supernova torpedoes in the galaxy Gun,

 

Thaleron Radiation isn't blocked by "slight" amounts of shielding... what in the nine hells makes you think that?

And what episode do you reference where a Tri-Cobalt device could barely strip a shield?

And there are blueprints for a Genesis Device.

 

I'm sure the living organisms on that planet would appreciate the difference.:deal:

:m:

We never see the Hoth shield perform the act of repelling one shot from an enemy ship; all we have is speculation.

Dumbass.

...according to the episode, it took less than a minute. Nor is this per say hard to believe. Going with the upper calculations for that, it would take one starship of similiar firepower to those ships twenty hours to perform the deed.

Now, what was said was that the Defiant had enough firepower to do that; it did not claim to do so in the time that they had to kill all life on the planet. It did however, claim that the Defiant could end all life on a planet within a relatively short timeframe.

Sepculation given by someone who works on the Defiant, worked for the Obsidian Order (which by the way, is an intelligence gathering group), and had just finished hacking into the Defiant's weapon system from a jeffries tube?

Yeah, it's just speculation.

Unlikely. When Shinzon ordered the weapon deployed, the Enterprise E did indeed have multiple hull breaches, but they were protected by containment shields; low powered shielding. So not only would the weapon be likely able to get through the contaimnet fields. Also, Earth just raising their shields would have solved all of their problems.

...okay.

Wait, what? I'm sorry, but was the guy's mother, who was the head of the project and absent from the mission that the guy was on, suddenly drop dead? Or how about all the other scientists who escaped to the caverns durning Wrath of Khan? Or how about all the data they'd given to the Federation? Or how about the fact that in Deep Space Nine, a brilliant scientists was actually using Protomatter for his terraforming projects and even re-ignited a star?

I don't think this argument was for the UFP using superweapons, so much as them having them available. Of course, a much better example would be the Obsession bomb that Kirk used to blow half the atmosphere off a planet. I rather doubt that anything in Star Wars...even the Death Star...could stop that.

Now, getting down to the war itself, I suspect that the first thing the Empire is going to do is to attempt to attack the smaller and weaker races; the Gorns and such would prove to be targets that they would find appealing. Given their small size, the Empire could probably wage an effective war for a short time, but its aggressive tendecies and its nature would probably incite action from the Klingons and the Romulans who would remember the Dominion well enough.

The Romulans would probably perform hit and run attacks on Imperial space or patrols; probably leaving evidence to suggest that it was one of the Empire's targets or even the Federation (just to get them to act). Eventually, I can see the Federation getting in on this.

Since this vs is about it going against all of Trek, then the Empire will also have attacked all the other races...meaning that the Borg and the Dominion are going to be crushing the Empire with relative ease in their own territory. Smaller races such as the Kazon (perhaps the only people stupider than B1 Droids...) and the Talaxians (perhaps the only race as annoying as Jar-Jar...) will probably fall to the Empire, but larger races could probably hold their own. God help the Empire if they ever run into the Hirodgen.

In any case, since the Empire only has 30,000 - 60,000 warships and ships that are so out of date the Enterprise 1701 crew would probably have a fair shot at going mono a mono with an ISD, then I suspect that this war wouldn't last long. Against per say the Romulans, Klingons, and UFP respectively, I could see it being a closer war due to the sheer number differences, but it isn't enough. Each of the Alpha powers has around 10,000 starships...making them more than a match for the Empire and their dated technology.

Kind of sad when you think about it; the Dominion War featured over 60,000 starships on par with a galactic civilization....

 

Well, to save on money wouldn;t you make standard optics you need for basic situations then outfit the ones who need thenm binoculars. It simplifies construction and minimizes waste.

 

1. i agree. the methreon cascade (spelling) looks to me more like a weapon of rendering planets uninhabitable then a weapon of planet busting. i consider it a futuristic cousin of the cobalt-frame nuclear bomb.

2.had the thalaron radiation stopable by conventional defences of any kind (even shielding) i don't think anyone on Earth would be worried.

3.i'm sure ALL the people that worked on that project are dead by now. but they were alive then. including dr.Marcus-the mother. and the reports are probably still preserved. however the shield would not help. the device works in a rather large area of effect. so even if a shield would help protecting from the direct threat, you could still turn their stars into vegetables.

4. given the experience we had with ST i tend to agree. UFP would likely not use weapons of mass destruction if left on its own. section 31 would, but UFP would not. i allso think that even other more militaristic powers in the ST-galaxy are reluctant to such actions. it apears that use of such weapons is acompanied with a moral stigma. races that have done such strocities are hated and scorned even by the most agresive species. this would actually work against the Empire. if they blow up even a small moon with an insignificant outpost on it, they are likely to face a "casus belli" from the entire galaxy (or most of it).

but the capability to blow up planets is there. even ancient and far more primitive powers (compared to the current UFP) have done it like shown in "Booby Trap" ST-TNG in which Data comments that destruction on such a scale (the only thing left was asteroids) is remarkable considering the primitive weaponry of the era.

bottom line, if a state of the art shield in SW could not protect a planet from a DS it would not protect them from the primitive Menthars and the Promellians, who obviously had the power of "1000 ships and more firepower..." and still were considered primitive by mid 24 century UFP.