Absolute randomness, is it possible.

For the past few months I have pondered something that seems to be of great importance in the world of mathamatics; Randomness, or Absolute Randomness. What is absolute randomness for those of you who are new to this. According to absolute randomness if a computer were to pick a number completely at random, and another computer did the same, then the theory states that the numbers could not be the same. Fine, you say, we agree. But what if the domain of those numbers were contained in a finite domain? Then could we say for 100% sure that the numbers would not be the same? No, we cannot. So... for example, same two computers but the domain is...numbers 1 - 10 (small numbers are easy to work with.) and if they selected them than mathamatically one could say that it all comes down to probibility. This leads me to my next quarry. If absolute randomness can only exsist in a domain of infinite than can absolute randomness auctually exsist? Because we know that "infinite" is not an auctual number or value, or even point in space, it is mearly a concept, then randomness cannot exsist. This leads me to my last quarry. If nothing is random, than we can assume that things that happen can be predicted, yes? Yes, because there is a basis for when it will happen. Some may argue that since "time" is infinite than absolute randomness can exsist, well absolutly, that could be another part of the whole equation. Just something to think about, please leave comments. Thanks.


S. Dalal

 

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What makes you say that?
I believe that absolute randomness means copletely independent of initial state.
If V signifies the set of all possible outcomes and V={X1, X2, ...,Xn} then P(X1)=P(X2)=....=P(Xn)=1/n, whatever the initial state.

If I am correct, there is no issue other than that we are probably not able to ever create a system that is independent of its initial state. Thus it will be an ideal impossible to reach.

 

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Quantum randomness...

It's not really all that random as it appears to be. It may be that quantum mechanics are completly deterministic. Just ask Schrödinger, he will explain it all to you.

Run that system forward and back
Call it a cat, and i'm gona hack!

Bill

 

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but if all the factors were known: wind velocity, coin velocity etc... we would be able to predict, wouldn't we? at least to a pretty certain degree.

what are the chances the coin will land on the edge, and stay that way? what are the chances the coin will spobtainiously disappear?

 

exactly my point. You say that tossing a coin is pretty close to absolute randomness, however, there is a chance that one could determine the outcome. You see, I can say that the coin will be heads, or it will be tales. Right there, its no longer random, because I have just stated the only possible answers. The point that I make is that there are a lot of things that be considered "close" to randomness, however they are not, why? Because their domin of possibilities are finite. If we said that the coin could land in an infinite amount of directions, one could not say for SURE, what the outcome will be. This is what I am trying to convey. Thanks guys, please leave more comments.

S. Dalal

 

This is neither the mathematical nor the colloquial definition of "randomness."

- Warren

 

If you let an ape into a (previously unknown) room with with two identical doors to a second room where is her food it wil be unpredictable wat the ape wil do. If you put the ape's brain between the chain of predictable physical events you wil have no intial value...

 

the thing is

doesn't effective, significant randomness move
more into the realm of 'association?'
I'm just speaking from personal experience.
I used to be called 'random'
and now people call me 'highly associative.'
This, I think came by the way of better articulation.
interesting?

 

I know

I know my comment wasn't mathematically related...
but maybe it could become so.

okay, so repeated randomness becomes association?

how could this relate to computation and numbers?

 

There is random and pseudo random. There is no absolute randomness like there is no dark black hair. There can be correlations between two random events, but they are still random.

Put down your crack pipe and slowly walk away.

 

No such thing as randomness.

As Joeman said, put the crackpipe down. The equation for a random number is LINEAR meaning it isn/t really random at all. SImple as that.

No more sugar for you, my friend. Time isn't really infinite in the way you interpret it. You can speed it up or slow it down. And the universe will eventaully come to an end. Time also had a starting point which means it isn't absolute, just as "randomness" isn't absolute. Randomness only singles out what cannot happen. Or so I think. Now I'm confusing myself. MY GOD I've gone cross eyed. Thanks alot.

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This is quite false. "Theory" says that the probability of both computers producing the same number is definite.

If you roll one die, the chance of getting a one is 1/6. If you roll another die, the chance of it showing a one is 1/6. The probability of both showing ones (snake eyes) is 1/6 * 1/6, or 1/36.

In fact, the "theory" says that a random variable is one which has no external dependence on anything -- which means that if one computer picks a number at random, it can't affect the other computer's choice in any way. The probability of both computers choosing the same number is 1/n^2, where n is the number of valid choices.

- Warren

 

re:chroot

Wel if n=infinity (absolute randomnes) there is really no chance at all (you cannot square infinity).

 

damnit procop, your closed-mindedness has made you wrong again!

 

I've read somewhere that when looking in a window, the portion of photons that make up your image that could be going through the window could be, say, 70%, the portion of photons that are reflected (and thus mirroring your image in the window) would then obviously be 30%.

Determining which individual photon would be reflected or not, would be rather difficult as it would require to measure multiple attributes of that photon (angle on the window, current location, ?).

Now i also was informed that knowing such properties of elementary things like photons is a bit of problem as you can not measure one, without influencing the other.

Doesn't that give you absolute randomness then? You can not know the initial set of attributes of an individual photon, without altering the result. And you can not know the result without knowing the attributes. Only thing you have left is just watching it happen (albeit knowing that in total usually 70% will go through and 30% will get reflected)?

 

as someone said at some post ago there are two kinds of randomness, pseudo-ramdom and random... the first are numbers being generated by a function that takes as input the last output and that guarantees that no numbers be repeated in a specific number of times, this method is basic for simulation based on queues and it has a lot of uses. as i can see you are trying to say that randomness does not exist

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( we are the living beings more random that exist, or you are telling us that all the decisions we take can be predicted?

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). i had problems to understand probality at the university, but only think it: probability, as ramdomness, exists only at a GREAT number of samples, for example: i throw 10 coins, i know that the probability that all be heads is (1/2)^10 = 1/1024, this does not guarantee that each 1024 times i get all heads, it says that, "after a billion of times i throw them, the average between two all-heads throws will be near 1024"... think in random as that, do not try to simulate how it works but as an abstract concept... and if you want to obtain really random values in a computer just amplify the static noise in a resitor and digitize it.

 

Just musing:

I have two random numbers x,y

I multiply x * y = z

Is z more random then the x,y? (what is the probability of getting z )

 

probability of getting z ??

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you can alwayz get z, so it is 1 (kiddin') mhhh... lets give values... x and y are the results from random functions with out any influence from one to another, and these are integers from 0 to 9... for example to know the probability of get z = 30 is equal to the probability of ( x=5 & y=6 ) plus the probability of ( x=6 & y=5 ) this is 2 * ( (1/10)^2 ) = 1/50

 

Well, you known Z won't be prime.