latest data Moscow, 27.okt., LETA--ITAR-TASS. 117 hostages dead 63 men 54 women Currently in the hostipals of Moscow: 646 people 150 are on 24h watch 45 - heavy condition
The gas seemed to stop them setting their bombs off & killing everyone! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
true but it's still sad although it is nothing with that horror which is going on in Chechna, and completely nothing compared to that what will russians do now many will die
this is gonna go way up high in the annals of botched rescue operations a previous op "In 1995, rebels stormed a hospital in southern Russia, capturing hundreds of people. More than a hundred people were killed in a botched rescue attempt by Russian soldiers and most of the hostage-takers later escaped to Chechnya"
A recent BBC "blurb" quotes Putin as saying it was organized somewhere abroad, and has direct links to terrorist attacks in Bali and the Philippines. No, Pootie, it's about that wretched war you've been "winning" for the better part of a decade. Setting aside the cause of the situation, the burgeoning criticism of Russia's action to free 750 hostages seems, to me, misguided. The very word 'Gas' strikes terror and provokes instant reactions. But, given that so many hostages were in immediate danger, what alternative tactics could have brought out over 600 of them? What should have been used instead, should they just have let it happen? The unwillingness of the Russian authorities to identify the gas used is also understandable. Why forewarn the next batch of hostage takers with advance knowledge to enable them to provide themselves with suitable protection. The failure to provide doctors with appropriate antidotes IS a valid criticism, as is the removal of casualties to hospitals lacking the expertise to deal with such cases. But we should avoid knee jerk reactions to the tragedy of innocents dying. Terrorism cannot be defeated by military actions, whether in Chechnya or Afghanistan or Iraq. Only by confronting the root causes for such hatred can real progress be made. But no country can just walk away from a hostage situation. And if I was an innocent hostage in a theatre, I don't think I would want to trust to the action or, more likely, inaction of some of the critics of what has occurred. Some of you may wonder why the American media isn't covering this more. Our media can really only concentrate on one thing at a time be it corporate crime or terrorism or Iraq or snipers on the loose. Plus they really can't be bothered with what goes on in other places unless it directly affects Americans. And we marvel that the rest of the world thinks us self-centered. Peace. __________________ Youth is the first victim of war - the first fruit of peace. It takes 20 years or more of peace to make a man; it takes only 20 seconds of war to destroy him. -- King Boudewijn I, King of Belgium (1934-1993)
Police or any law enforcement agencies including military never have a mechanism to prevent the very action these groups get engage on. It is the job of politicians and for them to think ahead is simply a joke just like CEOs of out great corporations....
The real terrorists! Gas Use Questioned in Moscow Raid Sun Oct 27, 5:16 PM ET By DAVID McHUGH, Associated Press Writer MOSCOW (AP) - Doctors said Sunday they still hadn't been told exactly what was in a mysterious knockout gas that killed 116 hostages after Russian special forces stormed a Moscow theater to free them from Chechen terrorists. The chief Moscow city doctor says more than 150 hostages remained in critical condition after the operation, which at first had been seen as a triumphant rescue mission. The physician in charge of the city's poison unit said troops did not tell medical authorities they had gassed the auditorium until the 750 hostages were brought out, most of them unconscious. "But we didn't know the character of the gas," said Yevgeny Luzhnikov, head of the city health service Department of Severe Poisoning. The substance was described as akin to compounds used in surgical anesthesia. Andrei Seltsovsky, the chief city physician, explained that the gas affected hearts and lungs. He said he had no information when asked about reports that the compound could cause vomiting that would choke unconscious victims. "In standard situations, the compound...does not act as aggressively as it turned out to do," Seltsovsky said. "But it was used on people who were in a specific (extreme) situation for more than 50 hours.... All of this naturally made the situation more difficult." The approximately 800 hostages were taken Wednesday night when an estimated 50 Chechen rebels stormed the theater during a popular musical. They demanded that Russia end its war in Chechnya (news - web sites). The few dozen hostages who were well enough to be released Sunday could provide few clues as the the nature of the gas. "We knew something serious was going to happen" when the gas started seeping into the hot auditorium that reeked of excrement, said Mark Podlesny as he walked out of Veterans Hospital No. 1 near the theater. "I lost consciousness. Yes, there was a strange smell," said Roma Shmakov, a 12-year-old actor in "Nord-Ost," the musical in progress when the gunmen burst in at 9:10 p.m. Wednesday. The gas mystery tainted the rescue mission, overlaying it with an aura of confusion and callousness. The impression was bolstered by scenes outside hospitals where the hostages were taken for treatment. Friends and family crowded the gates in futile efforts to learn if relatives or loved ones were inside. Authorities gave out little information on hostages' identities, what hospital they were in or how they had fared through the ordeal. Even diplomats had trouble finding information about the estimated 70 foreign citizens who were among the captives. U.S. consular officials searched the city's hospitals for one of the two American citizens known to have been in the theater. A second American was found recuperating in a city clinic. Two foreign women — one Dutch and one Austrian — were known to have died. Only on Sunday afternoon, more than 24 hours after the hostages were freed, did hospitals post complete or even partial lists of who they were holding. Visits still were prohibited. Some people outside the gates saw their relatives waving to them from windows. "They are hostages again," one visitor shouted to the armed guards at Hospital 13, where about half the captives were taken. Most of those who left the hospitals hugged those meeting them, then hurried to get out of the chilling rain and avoid a pulsing crowd of reporters and TV cameras. Those who stopped to talk gave accounts of the ordeal that sometimes contradicted the official version. Podlesny questioned Russian television footage that showed the captors' corpses in the theater amid liquor bottles and syringes. "They didn't drink, didn't smoke, didn't swear. They were very disciplined," he said. Both Podlesny and Georgy Vasilyev, the producer of Nord-Ost, disputed Russian officials' statement that the gunmen had begun shooting hostages before dawn and prompting the special forces' to start their assault. A total of 118 hostages where known to have died since the Chechens stormed the theater — 116 from the effects of the gas, one young woman shot and killed early in the standoff and one hostage shot Saturday morning shortly before the rescue raid. President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) visited the special forces troops Sunday to congratulate them on the mission and declared Monday a national day of mourning. As troops that had surrounded the theater building began to withdraw, Muscovites placed flowers at the perimeter. Many of the 50 assailants killed in the hostage-rescue mission died after being shot in the head, apparently while unconscious from the gas. The Federal Security Service said three other gunmen were captured, and authorities searched the city for accomplices or gunmen who may have escaped. The chief Moscow prosecutor, Mikhail Avdyukov, said Sunday that three people had been arrested in Moscow on suspicion of helping organize and carry out the raid, the Interfax news agency reported. The attackers included 18 women, many of whom said they were war widows. The women had explosives strapped to their bodies, and mines were place throughout the building the terrorists threatened to blow the building to bits unless Putin agreed to withdraw troops from mainly Muslin Chechnya Russian forces pulled out of Chechnya after a devastating 1994-1996 war that left separatists in charge. In fall 1999, Putin sent troops back in after rebels based in Chechnya attacked a neighboring region and after apartment-building bombings blamed on the militants killed about 300 people. In 1995 and 1996, rebels seized hundreds of hostages in two raids in southern Russia near Chechnya, and dozens of people died in both cases, many of them killed when Russian forces attacked the assailants. Damn Russkie ass h$#@s! Murderers.
OK, probably my fault for not explaining myself properly. I think it is ironic that Clockwood said it, so in that way it was directed at him personally, but it's not that I hate, dislike or even know him (so in that way it's not personal). I don't get why the Russians won't say what gas they used, and why they couldn't just use normal non-fatal gas? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Goofyfish hit the nail right on the head when he said the only way to stop terrorism is to address the root cause of it. That root cause is the "New World Order" or the new "Evil Empire" as former pesident Ronald Reagan would have named it. It was the U.S. who opened the Pandora's Box of using poison on their own citizens when they used anthrax in Senator Daschle's office and other places. Now the Russians felt no constraint in using it and, as with the U.S., they couldn't care less how many innocent people died. They've got millions more where they came from. As with all the new evil boundaries in degradation against civilian society, it is the U.S. that is the pioneer that is leading the way, as this article tells of; www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1029-05.htm Of course, the apologists and patriots will find some reason for the U.S.'s continuing to pioneer such research and thereby force every other regime to follow suit or be left behind and then later be dominated or have to live in constant fear of domination.
Apparently, Russians do not take prisoners unless it suits their purpose. Whether that is moral and ethical is debatable. And this is a good place to start....
I don't get why the Russians won't say what gas they used, and why they couldn't just use normal non-fatal gas? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why tell terrorist what gas they use,as they would hear if the media found out. & what gas is that air??? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Apparently, Russians do not take prisoners unless it suits their purpose. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thats what the British SAS do as well!
Declaring exact composition of the gas would expose the secret for the next time. On the otherhand, they should have atleast instructed the doctors how to treat and provided antidote. This can only mean, they are not well organized because, it is the remnant of their past where information is highly compartmentalized. It happens in US as well. After all it was a military operation. The problem is, next time - these terrorists might not be present to receive the gas or come with air tanks??? Either way - it is a sad situation for everybody. May be it is time for major countries to get together and solve issues of the minorities so that these sort of stuff is prevented.
Perhaps the Russians did not want to risk detonating the explosives that were strapped on a number of the hostage takers. Why didn't they just de-activate the bombs when the hostage takers were knocked out? Maybe in the heat of things, there wasn't enough time to analyse the bombs. So the next best thing - take out the "triggers" - asleep or otherwise. Still, it is debatable.
This is kind of what I was thinking. Why didn't they just use normal anasthetic? And whether the terrorists know EXACTLY what gas was used or not, they can just counter them all by wearing gas masks (which could also hide identity, if they wanted). And even if they did say which gas was used, there's no guarantee that would be used the next time.
Gas: Opiate type gas is a good way to knock people out as in anasthesia in a surgery. However, its effect depends on composition, concentration, body weight, overall physical condition. So it is difficult to manage without adverse effect on a few. Gas masks: There are different type of gas masks for different chemicals. Some are just activated charcoal based where large molecules are trapped in the carbon while Ogygen passes through. Some have wet chemicals to neutralize or oxidize the offending chemical. There is no guarantee that the a specific chemical will work for the specific gas mask. It is interesting to see the way the Chechnya terrorists acted vs the way the Palestinians or Al Queda terrorists act. One group wants to solve a problem while others want to destroy their target. It is really difficult to solve the terrorist action after the action is initiated. Israel has the most experience in it. Solving the "why" issue is the only solution.
This is kind of what I was thinking. Why didn't they just use normal anasthetic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- normal anasthetic gas is poisonous in the wrong dose,how can they monitor it???
Oh, thanks km and odin, didn't know any of that. They should've just tried laughing gas. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
laughing gas=nitros oxide which is or was the main anaesthetic gas used in hospital. But it was a good pun
