Engineering Title

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Mickmeister, Dec 10, 2007.

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  1. Mickmeister Registered Senior Member

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    Does it get next to you on how the title of engineer has been degraded? It used to be a respectable title until society started tagging the title onto every little job to try and make every position sound important. I am surprised the engineering community has not done more to crack down on this.

    Some of the most pathetic titles are home engineers (stay-at-home mom's), sanitation engineers (trash man), and pizza engineers (pizza parlor cook). This article is excellent at addressing the issue.
     
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  3. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Only if you let it disturb you, I could care less for I know what real engineers are...locomotive drivers!

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  5. draqon Banned Banned

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    Pride is of no concern to me.
     
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  7. Mickmeister Registered Senior Member

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    I am sure you would be upset if you were a real engineer and had worked many years for that title.
     
  8. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Nope, doesn't bother me a bit.
     
  9. Blandnuts Registered Senior Member

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    Like Dr. Dre?

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  10. Blue_UK Drifting Mind Valued Senior Member

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    In the UK the title 'engineer' is unregulated, however, 'chartered engineer' is - as are the symbols for degrees and PhDs. (e.g. MEng, MSc...).

    What bothers me is that I am (amongst other things) a 'verification engineer'. This is just the sort of title that might be given to a shit job that involves mindless testing or something. When people ask me what I do I don't use the title for fear of such an interpretation; I just say something like 'chip design' or 'electronics'.

    My new title is 'development engineer', which perhaps reads as 'brick-layer' to those who are getting savvy!

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  11. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    Another word that gets over-used is "system"...everything is a f-ing system nowdays....It's not shampoo...it's a hair cleansing system. I guess is sounds more technical...for all those home engineers.

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  12. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    In researching an article I wrote several years ago, I concluded that this fad was initiated by the wave of job re-titling in the 1960s and 70s. The joke that people who clean toilets became "sanitation engineers" is an exaggeration--but not much of an exaggeration.

    The impetus for this was the Fair Labor Standards Act, which was last updated in 1975. It covered most employees, and required them to be paid for every hour they worked. However, anyone classified as administrative, executive or professional staff was not required to be paid for overtime, as long as they earned more than $4 per hour.

    As salaries rose with inflation, the breakpoints in the FLSA did not. $4 an hour--$700 a month, $8K per year--was a fabulous income in 1967 when I got my first full-time job, and it was reasonable for us in that lofty bracket to assume that we did not have a clock-watching 8-5 job. But nowadays virtually everyone makes more than $4 an hour. In fact a husband and wife both earning $700 a month and raising a family fall just below the official U.S. poverty line.

    Nonetheless, if their job descriptions and titles make them look like engineers, their employers don't have to pay them for overtime.
     
  13. Mickmeister Registered Senior Member

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    Good point. Psychology at its best.
     
  14. RubiksMaster Real eyes realize real lies Registered Senior Member

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    There's currently a debate in the software field as to whether or not developers can call themselves "software engineers". As far as I know, Texas is the only state where you have to be licensed in order to call yourself a software engineer.

    I take the side that this is a valid use of the term "engineer" because software engineers apply actual engineering processes to software development.

    Anyway, that's my two cents.
     
  15. superluminal I am MalcomR Valued Senior Member

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    Do you have an engineering degree? No? Then you're not an engineer. But there are degrees in software engineering.
     
  16. RubiksMaster Real eyes realize real lies Registered Senior Member

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    I'm on my way to one. Another year.
     
  17. Echo3Romeo One man wolfpack Registered Senior Member

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    Same here in the US. We have Professional Engineers (PE) who are licensed by state authorities. Different disciplines require PE cert to differing degrees. Civil engineers make up a prepondrance of them, as PE cert is usually a prerequisite before you can work within your state. Nuclear engineering, which is what I'm trained in, isn't as regulated but certain states do require it. EE/ME/AE, not so much.
     
  18. draqon Banned Banned

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    two years here...bud

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  19. RubiksMaster Real eyes realize real lies Registered Senior Member

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    Nice. Technically mine will take another two years because I am going to do some internships.
     
  20. Echo3Romeo One man wolfpack Registered Senior Member

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    What type of engineering are you guys studying?
     
  21. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Now you're getting into a topic that I've written and spoken on many times over the past fifteen years.

    We software developers will EARN the title of "engineer" precisely when we START using engineering processes.

    In general, compared to every other engineering discipline (even those we don't normally think of as engineering like plumbing and carpentry), software developers do not practice three of the most fundamental principles of engineering.
    • We don't use repeatable processes. Every project is planned heuristically, with very few lessons learned from the past. As a result the same mistakes are repeated endlessly. Windows *<yucch phooey spits in the direction of Seattle>* applications are plagued with deadlocks (two or more operations each waiting for the other to complete), breakdown of bank integrity (the ability to overwrite instructions and/or to execute data), and a raft of other problems we solved on mainframes 35 years ago. Most American IT shops are either at CMM Level One (Success through heroics) or what we colloquially call Level Zero ("We can't even spell CMM."
    • We don't measure. Imagine the city's Civil Engineering Department promising to build a wonderful new a bridge, without being able to accurately estimate the amount of steel, concrete and other materials, without calculating the width needed to handle the expected volume of traffic or the thickness of the piers needed to support it. Nonetheless they tell the mayor they think they can do the job in three years with one hundred people and it will cost $80 million. And they're eight years late, over budget by $200 million, and the first time two semi-trailers drive onto it at the same time in a 30mph wind it starts to shake and collapses into the river. That is exactly what the city's IT Department says and does every time they go to the mayor promising to build a wonderful new information system. Function points were developed more than 25 years ago as units of measurement for software, but almost no one in America uses them.
    • We don't practice quality assurance. We test software to death as if it were a stream of identical products flowing off of an assembly line and we can just throw away the defective units. That is quality control, not quality assurance. We build only one unit and if it doesn't work we have to run the assembly line backwards until we find the defect in the construction process, fix it, and re-do half of our work. We fix only the few defects we can find that way, leaving most of them to surprise the end users in production. We don't design quality into our software because we're too anxious to start "the real work" to "waste time planning."
    Software development is not engineering. It is more akin to a guild craft in the Middle Ages.
    Actually in many cases building software is more like a black art.
    Yes, I'm exaggerating, but anyone here who is in the field of software development knows that I'm only exaggerating a little.

    Avionics software development is engineering. "Zero defects" is not just a slogan on a placard over their desks, it is a non-negotiable user requirement. The end users are willing to pay for this, and if a functional requirement is impractical because of time to delivery or lags in the state of the art, they cut it from the requirements. And they actually build software with no Category One defects. Military software development is engineering (especially in Israel, which builds the world's highest-quality military software.) It has to be delivered before the war is over and it has to perform reasonably correctly or it will shoot the wrong people. Again, the users are willing to pay for this, and impractical requirements are deleted. And again, the stuff works within the quality parameters of the domain. (War is full of risks so military software can occasionally malfunction in the interests of speed and economy. Civilian avionics software cannot.) Most embedded software, such as in musical instruments and under the hood of your car, is also very nearly zero-defect because no one would buy it otherwise. These applications prove that "software engineering" is possible.

    But most of the stuff we deliver to our customers is crap and we know it. The mean time between failures is so bad we don't publish it, and the repair cycle is so slow that customers develop their own work-arounds. If the world's "plumbing infrastructure" worked as poorly as the world's "information infrastructure," after you flushed your toilet you'd run from the room holding a plunger.

    No dude, we have no right to call ourselves "engineers." The guys who built the Roman Aqueducts, which are still in use... now those guys were engineers. Sure software is more complicated than aqueducts, so why aren't we using project management principles appropriate to that complexity and training our project managers to use them? It's a lot cheaper to build software right the first time than to spend the rest of your life fixing it. Software developers may be bright and dedicated, but they are not disciplined. Their managers are all former software developers who got promoted as a reward for being good technicians but have no "people skills" and know nothing about project organization.
     
  22. RubiksMaster Real eyes realize real lies Registered Senior Member

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    I think all that is due to the fact that it's a relatively new field. To use the aquedect example, people have been engineering structures for a very long time. There have only been software engineers for a few decades.

    In time, our current development methodologies will become repeatable processes. We will develop best practice experiences and get better at estimating.

    Plus, I don't believe you can compare software engineers to "real" engineers that closely, because software is inherently different. Requirements are never well-known to begin with, and changes are always going to occur. And now that I think about it, I've never in my life seen a bridge be completed on time and under budget. So it's really not that different.
     
  23. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    In the Czech Republic, the title "Engineer" is both reverential and often-heard. It surprised me to discover that the custom survived Soviet times, whereby it's routine for Czechs to address holders of Engineering degrees as "Pane Ingener" or "Mr. Engineer"- Much in the same way as judges and doctors have been commonly and traditionally addressed in US culture.
     
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