War on Terrorism or Eonomic Stranglehold.

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Stryder, Sep 6, 2002.

  1. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,105
    I mentioned this in another thread (with my now trade word, hypothetical)

    It's getting near a year since that horrific act of destruction and mass genocide was carried out, and still our world is being plagued with the notion to take dictator down by dictator with the self righteous quoting of them being terrorists.

    Now my concern isn't the fact that people want to do this, I find this strangely acceptable probably due to the mass media hype.

    What I do see though is an unspoke of strategy, one that a single strong economic country can do that will keep them the biggest, the strongest, the one on top.

    The strategy is simple, Pool everyone into warring with countries and using up their funds on weapons to rid the world of terrorism, and this in turn forces their economy to become weaker so they are more reliant on the stronger economic power.

    This means to me that a war with Iraq might be at face value to oust a military fascist dictator, but it could cause financial dependancy on the USA for the other powers that get involved.

    My point here, if it's to be viable I would create a US Ultimatum Agree to the original Kyoto agreement and we would join, otherwise we aren't aiding you.
    (War in exchange for Ecology)
     
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  3. Pollux V Ra Bless America Registered Senior Member

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    It's an excellent idea but like the Kyoto treaty the US pulled out of the World Court, so that troopers committing war crimes would be tried by the US and not by the world as a whole. I can't say I've decided if the decision was a good one...when this court is developed or if it already has been, will it be corrupt? Fascist? Can we take the risk that our soldiers will be prejudiced against? However, through the eyes of the rest of the world, this means that despite our laws troopers would be able to fight however they pleased and might not be tried at all in the US.

    But back to the topic.

    Here is the problem. At the moment, the US is presided over by what I would describe as a man who is fiercely patriotic and hungering for war. He desires a final battle with Iraq, but his interests are obviously in favor of businesses rather than with the environment, so to him signing the Kyoto Treaty would be ultimate betrayal to his contributors. If the world united against him (or most of it, anyway), he would almost definitely take this as a sign of agression, and possibly plunge us into another world war, with the US being the bad guys. There are a lot of ifs and this is definitely the worst-case scenario. Bush might actually listen to the people he's supposed to represent and adhere to his worldwide responsibilities, he might back out of the idea entirely, if congressmen didn't support him and the people didn't support him as well they could bog down the procedures until 2004, then have a new president elected (assuming he doesn't steal this coming election like he did the last one).

    It's too bad this is all theoretical. Stryde, if I were you, I'd consider writing a letter to as many British politicians as you could think of, because in my opinion, forcing Bush into a corner and showing him that he is not the supreme dictator of the world (with all the priveleges thereof) would obliterate his confidence and ensure a weak president (or weaker) for the rest of his term.
     
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  5. John MacNeil Registered Senior Member

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    You guys are being too hard on George Bush. He doesn't run the government, he's just a figurehead. The U.S. government is a corporate government and the decisions are made by a select group of people. George Bush's father probably has more input into strategy than does George Jr.
     
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  7. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    4,888
    "George Bush's father probably has more input into strategy than does George Jr."

    While Georgy Sr. has stated he has not had words with his son over Iraq, a number of former Bush Sr.'s high ranking officials have sided with the no-war-on-Iraq-yet people. Of course, Bush Sr. denies that he in anyway has said anything to his son or that this is a message to the president.
     
  8. Xten Registered Member

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    I find it interesting that people so easly believe that America wants to rule everything. Rember a while back when isreal and palistine were going at it, America didnt get involved, didnt say anything about it. The whole time its nonstop on CNN the Church of the Nativity under seige, and all this media fluff. America didnt get involved until the global comunity started downtalking America for not telling isreal to chill out. I dont get this, people complain if America dosent get involved, and when they do its some big plot to steal oil or land from someone. I think a lot of people overlook the fact that there is more to the world econmy than the doller and the euro. If America went completely under and the doller was worth more as fuel to heat our homes what do you think would happen to the "Global econmy"? I know people like to think of the world as mine and yours, but it dosent work that way anymore. Same for every country in the world, like an ecosystem where all things depend on one another to survive. The global econmy is the same. Thinking of this as a way for America to take more than our fair share makes a good good vs. bad story. Reality is that Iraq isnt only affecting the "US", but in fact pissing around with the whole world.
    I saw someone said that Iraq has the largest oil deposits in the world, this is a misconception. In the 70s a oil deposit was found in mexico large enough, that if it were set on fire it would smother its self before all the oil was gone. Meening that there is enough oil under mexico to deplete the entire Oxy content of the atmosphere. IMO there is a reason we buy oil from over there in the first place. 1. Iraq has few natural resources other than the oil. How would they survive if we "everyone who uses oil products from Iraq" didnt buy it from them? As an American I can assure you there is no "evil plot" while this sounds sinister and might be good to talk about with your m8s over a beer its just not true.
     
  9. *stRgrL* Kicks ass Valued Senior Member

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    2,495
    Xten,

    Good points, I can see you and I will get along just fine

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  10. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    5,331
    Hi there, Xten, and welcome to SciForums!

    Althought Iraqi deposits are not the largest, Mexico crawls where Iraq strides.

    The 14 largest oilfields were basically discovered before 1950, and the latest field to contain more than 1 million barrels of reserves was the Cantarell field in Mexico discovered in the 1970s, with estimated reserves of 13.5 billion barrels. While this is a huge field, it pales when compared with the Ghawar oilfield in Saudi Arabia, the world's largest, containing a reported 70 billion barrels of producible reserves. According to the State Department, Saudi Arabia has huge proven oil reserves, estimated at 250 billion barrels, while Iraq has an estimated 112 billion barrels of proven oil reserves. In comparison, Mexico has a “mere” 26.9 billion barrels of proven reserves.
    Never happen. The world is too oil-hungry. While there is no question sanctions are hurting, the strategy of containing Iraq through restricting its ability to export oil has been crumbling. Thought the U.S. and Britain still play hardball with Iraq (at least in the Security Council), a clear softening of diplomatic resolve from Russia, China and France has long eroded the once tough cordon around Iraq. Besides favoring a weakening of the economic embargo, these countries coincidentally also profit nicely from most of the UN monitored sales of oil industry spare parts, food and medicine to Baghdad. According to Jane’s Defense Weekly, some of our “allies”, most notably Turkey, are actually buying Iraqi oil from the black market.
    I always shy away from the use of the word evil, so I would agree that there is no “evil plot”. As an American, I don’t say there is a plot, but I am also not saying there isn’t. But you can assure us that there is no “evil plot”? How?

    Peace.

    _____________
    Youth is the first victim of war - the first fruit of peace.
    It takes 20 years or more of peace to make a man;
    it takes only 20 seconds of war to destroy him.
    • -- King Boudewijn I, King of Belgium (1934-1993)
     
  11. John MacNeil Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    345
    Evil= "Morally bad or wrong"--Websters, first definition.

    I've used the term evil to describe certain corporate/governemnts such as the U.S. and Israel. There is plenty of evidence to justify such a classification. Israel's is played out in the worldwide media every day for at least the last thirty-five year and the U.S. supporting dictatorial mass murderers, such as Saddam Hussein, is well documented also.
     
  12. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,331
    In the strictest use of the term, you are absolutely correct. My hesitancy to use the term is due to the definition continuing with "…WICKED,SINFUL", which leans towards a religious connotation that I personally find inappropriate.

    Peace.

    _____________
    Youth is the first victim of war - the first fruit of peace.
    It takes 20 years or more of peace to make a man;
    it takes only 20 seconds of war to destroy him.
    • -- King Boudewijn I, King of Belgium (1934-1993)
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2002
  13. Xten Registered Member

    Messages:
    11
    How do I know there is no "Evil plot" as defined above.

    Americans are not blood thirsty warmongers bent on the destruction of everyone else. I was in the US Army and if you have ever been in any Military you probably know what the prospects for going to war actually feels like. I guess it comes down to why we join the military. For me and 99.9% of the people I meet while I was in joined because of the pay. To me it was just a good paying job. But after being in for a while that changed, but I didnt want to go to war or fight anyone. At the same time was ready to do what was asked of me.
    I guess its important to understand that there is no "button" that sends us into action somewhere. There is alot that happens before US troups are deployed anywhere. The American public has to support any actions that are taken.
    Someone said to me before that Americans just wanted to murder people in Afgan because of 9/11. This is funny to me, our shit has been being attacked way before 9/11. The Cole, our Embassys(sp) in Africa were attacked. But we didnt have a face to put to these acts at the time so the American people were weary of sending their sons and daughters to do something they were unsure of.
    I use to think of terrorests as just a small group of people that had their beliefs and did their thing to make some point. Dont get me wrong when the Cole was attacked Americans were mad! But we didnt understand what was going on. Its hard to understand why some people hate Americans so much. I guess because we dont hate nations, and support the killing of people just for their religious beliefs. (Please keep in mind that I am talking about now and not like the Crusades or anything.) So when we see those planes hitting the WTC they made their point.
    Point being "They hate us so much that they will kill themselvs to watch us suffer" Sorry guys but this dosent compute. Mabey I am just stupid and dont see how we are so bad to these people to drive them to do these things.

    Evil plot you ask me for proof that it dosent exist, I ask you do you vote? Do you think that our leaders want to piss off the people that elected them? Decisions are made bassed on the vibe from us, the voters. With out our support things dont happen.
     
  14. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,331
    And for those of you who do not believe it, consider that the American government sees initiating a war as a marketing campaign.

    Asked why, if a war with Iraq was so urgent, that the administration hadn't made its case for it during the summer, Andrew Card, the White House chief of staff casually replied, "From a marketing standpoint, you don't introduce new products in August." (Full text here - logon required)

    So get ready for the mother of all marketing programs, folks. Bush has demanded a resolution of war from Congress by the end of October - what a startling coincidence, just before the November elections. And you will be expected to do your part and bludgeon the spineless corporate shill who is your representative into going along.

    Peace.

    _____________
    Youth is the first victim of war - the first fruit of peace.
    It takes 20 years or more of peace to make a man;
    it takes only 20 seconds of war to destroy him.
    • -- King Boudewijn I, King of Belgium (1934-1993)
     
  15. Xten Registered Member

    Messages:
    11
    sure that would make him more electible to ignore the fact that this guy over there is a danger to EVERYONE. Some people miss the point that he is dangerous to the whole world. What do you think if you sit at home and ignore that he is there that he wont someday end up affecting you?
    I am not saying I agree with every thing the US govermant has ever done but I take the good with the bad. Would you throw the baby out with the wash water? No nation can secure or destroy everything alone.
    This is a differant world today. When America claimed independance things were so much differant. Now the whole envoronment is differant and the things that worked once dont anymore. You cant ignore things and expect them to go away. You think I want to elect someone that is trigger happy and wants to go to war with everyone? Hell no who would? I love peace and happiness as a healthy human should.

    I guess I cant speak for all Americans but I can tell you how "I" feel about all this.
    I dont want to take over anything.
    I dont want to invade anyones personal space.
    I dont want to force my views on anyone.
    I think killing and murder is wrong.
    I dont want to steal anything from anyone.

    There are so many things we all could do differantly that would be better in someways, but you have to look way below the surface of it all to get a understanding of why things are the way they are.

    Oil is a big example. Why do we even use the stuff anymore? Its old out dated and bad for the environment.
    Some people say so the "Big Wigs" can line their pockets.
    I say look at the Oil industry. Alot of people work in the procurement/refineing/shipping/distrobution/retailing of Oil products.
    Sure we can build cars that run off of electricty/hydrogen/even solor power. But what would happen to the Global Econmy if all the suddon we didnt need Oil anymore? Thats alot of ppl with out jobs, no money = no food to eat. This isnt a good situation but its better than the alternitive at this point in time.

    Oh and I just feel like adding this in. If not for the Countrys that formed an alience including the UK and the USA to stop WWII you wouldnt even be sitting infront of your computer reading this. I am not saying anyone owes the USA anything at all. But think about what you are saying before you say the USA must be taken down, who is the USA? We are not a race or spefic religion. Hell I am 1/4 native american, things happened to my ansestors that was wrong. Its up to me to decide whats more important, being pissed off about the setterlers comming and taking my ansestors land and killing them, or helping people understand that while somethings have happened that are not good. The over all outcome has been for the better. It makes us all more tolorable of others, America is a land full of many people. People from all over the world all races and in any combination you can imagin. We dont all get along all the time but such is life, dosent make me want to murder my neighbors.
     
  16. John MacNeil Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
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    Thinking that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the world is to believe the most outlandish propaganda. The U.S. dominated UN coalition proved during the Gulf war that Iraq isn't even a second rate army in modern terms. Since that Gulf war, the U.S. and Britain have been bombing Iraqi targets nearly every day for the last ten year. How could they possibly be a threat to anyone now, after ten year of sanctions and bombing, when they weren't even a threat during the Gulf war?

    The only reason that the U.S. is itching to go to war with Iraq is because they are running out of options on how to keep the war fever in the public conciousness. They failed miserably in their stated objective to go and get Osama Bin Laden and that made them lose face in the eyes of the world. All those military types are so gung-ho to keep warring because it was their headquarters that was attacked and they want to show all the world that they won't stand for such an attack without dishing out massive retribution. Since Al Qaeda is such an elusive target, and the U.S. is no good at fighting elusive targets, remember Vietnam, they are making up targets that they know are weak and cannot run away. If there was any legitimate reason for going after other countries then the U.S. and Britain would have garnered some support from other world leaders. They haven't got any, except maybe from the war criminal Ariel Sharon and maybe Columbia, which is currently the U.S.'s favorite war pawn in their effort to destabilize any country that is not run by white people.

    The U.S. corporate/government doesn't inform it's citizens what it's real plans are, nor do they use polls or any other kind of advice from the citizens of the U.S. to help them formulate policy. The corporate/government just use polls as an advertising tool to get certain ideas in front of the public. If a poll ever goes against them, they just ignore it. Just yesterday on television George W. Bush was asked if there was anything going on that the U.S. citizens were unaware of and he replied, "There's a lot going on that people don't know about." This secretive, elitist attitude shows that the U.S. corporate/government doesn't trust it's own citizens to be able to make intelligent decisions about what their country's foreign policy should reflect. Apparently, the New World Order doesn't believe in government by the people, for the people.
     
  17. Xten Registered Member

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    11
    I am not going to attack you for having these views, its appearant that you are either not American or a misinformed one. The idea that we Americans should "know" about every little thing going on the the goverment is retarded. Sure we have been bombing SAM sites in these areas. Not a threat to everyone? Hmmm ok if you say so, but if he will use VS gas on his own people whynot anyone else, have you seen the pictures of the moc 707 that Iraq has to train how to hijack planes? Sure you can fly them into the WTC but just as easy to fly them into any building anywhere in the world. From which country are you from, do you know everything that your goverment does? I dont want to know about matters of national security and I am glad they dont share this information openly. To say that military types are just mad because our HQ got attacked is kinda silly also. Sure im mad, but im pissed off because Americans were abord the plane that hit the damn thing. Do their lives meen any less than those that died in the building? And why attack the Pentigon? Why not go for NORAD, its just as important. You still fail to explain these feelings toward the US is your argument that ppl dislike us because of Bush?? I dont understand, I dont like Sadam but that dosent meen I dont like the normal people in Iraq.
    By "normal" I meen ppl that shop and run stors and do everyday things.
     
  18. John MacNeil Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    345
    I'm from Ottawa, Canada. You apparently do not know what your corporate/government is really up to or what they have done in the past. That is no surprise since they expend a great deal of money and effort keeping what they really do out of the mass media. If you would like to find out what is really happening in the world you can check out CommonDreams, the progressive newscenter, at www.commondreams.org and you can read just about anything that Noam Chomsky writes. He has many books on the market, most of which are also in libraries. 'Culture of Terrorism' and 'Propaganda and the Public Mind' are two good ones and they will lead you to read others. Once you have read some of his books and articles you will then be better able to understand both sides of the discussion, from the corporate/government side and the progressive humanist side.

    One of the sites in CommonDreams is Z magazine and in that site you will find commentary by Noam Chomsky, who is the leading intellectual of the humanists and a regular contributor to Z.
     
  19. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    5,331
    Actually, we should be clear that it is the civilian leaders of the military who are gung-ho; those I like to call the “chickenhawks” because they have not served, and would not be involved in actual combat. Military commanders are never eager for conflict, as they know the personal side of having to make that commitment.
    Your complete faith in our government is touching, if a bit scary.
    Yes, I have. Have you looked closely, or only seen it briefly on television?

    <center>

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    Defectors from Iraq call this a 707? I think not. The 707 has four engines that are mounted under the wings. This photograph depicts a rear-engined plane. This discrepancy should cast doubts on the rest of their story as well, but is not what truly throws a red flag up for me. I am bothered that “experts” have examined this photograph for the government, and administration officials still call it a 707; that casts doubts on the rest of their stories.

    Peace.

    _____________
    Youth is the first victim of war - the first fruit of peace.
    It takes 20 years or more of peace to make a man;
    it takes only 20 seconds of war to destroy him.
    • -- King Boudewijn I, King of Belgium (1934-1993)
     
  20. John MacNeil Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    345
    I understand exactly what you mean by who are the 'chickenhawks' but I don't believe all the power is solely with them. They're players but they're only part of a team.

    After reading Robert C. Mason's book 'Chickenhawk' c.1983, I wouldn't call them such a glorious name, either. Mason was a huey helicopter pilot in Vietnam and his autobiographical account of his tour there is absolutlely riveting. I'm against war as a general rule but that doesn't mean I don't admire some people who are forced to go to war. Mason's description will leave you in no doubt of what it is like to fly into battle daily. Mason wrote a few other books after the original and they all have 'Chickenhawk+tag name' so you'll have to be sure to read the original. It's out of print as far as I know, but it can be found in libraries and second hand through Barnes and Noble.
     
  21. skywalker 3 @ T M 3 Registered Senior Member

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    Interesting poin isn't it?. I noticed that too but too bad those so called fu&^%g experts missed that. Perhaps they have been told to miss that? There are way too many so called damn experts out there who I am sure never ever had been to Midle east or know jack about terrorism or any of that and they are making retarded statements. This is just way to pathetic to see goverment lying non stop to convience the world that how big of a evil saddam is, no one is asking how the hell did he get those weapons, when we can track freaking snail crawling on the ground from 100 miles above the ground, why didn't we see those N-bombs moving into Iraq, or why doesn't goverment tell the world that , it was USA who provided Saddam with all kinds of Bio and Chemical weapons during Iran Iraq war??? Why the hell not?? Just wondering?

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