before the Big Bang

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by Atom, Aug 8, 2007.

Page 3 of 4
  1. Klitwo

    Klitwo Registered Member

    Messages:
    80
    Yea. Especially interesting because know one knows for sure what really happen prior to the so-called 'Big Bang' and it's a good bet that no one ever will.
     
    Klitwo, Aug 9, 2007
    #41

  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Orleander

    Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817

    Yeah, the water filled balloons are universes. In the balloons are baby guppies, which are galaxies.
     
    Orleander, Aug 9, 2007
    #42

  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Orleander

    Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817
    I do think about it, which is why I asked. Why is it neither?
     
    Orleander, Aug 9, 2007
    #43

  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Fraggle Rocker

    Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    "Time" is a concept, like "temperature." What we call temperature is our own way of sensing the results of the motion of molecules. I submit that what we call time is similarly nothing more than our own way of sensing a natural phenomenon, in this case one that we don't understand as well as molecular motion.

    Recall that temperature is not an infinite continuum. There is an "absolute zero" temperature. It is physically impossible for matter to have a temperature below zero because for the purposes of calculating temperature a molecule has an absolute speed, not a signed velocity. Perhaps (and I'm just speculating on the basis of science classes from 45 years ago) to discuss temperatures below zero we would have to postulate molecules with speeds expressed in imaginary numbers.

    For all we know, time may also not be an infinite continuum. There may be an "absolute zero" time that corresponds to the Big Bang. It may be scientifically incorrect to say that nothing existed before the Big Bang, because there may be no referent for the condition described in colloquial speech as "before the Big Bang" and "existence" before the Big Bang may be a meaningless phrase. Perhaps (to carry my speculation further) to discuss time before the Big Bang we would have to postulate imaginary numbers as values for other variables than molecular speed.

    I have long recommended graphing time on a log scale, so that the further we go to the left, the more space any given unit of time such as a nanosecond takes up on the chart. And so that the Big Bang is at minus infinity. Perhaps we experience time as passing at a steady rate because we are so far to the right that the change in its rate of passing is too small to measure, like the relativistic effect of a moving train on a stopwatch. Or perhaps we experience it thus because we are part of the universe and we're not equipped to sense this phenomenon. After all it's hard to hypothesize the evolutionary advantage to such a sense.

    In summary, I maintain that the question, "What happened before the Big Bang" has only been tested for semantic validity, but not scientific validity." After all, we are capable of speaking the question, "How does matter behave at temperatures below absolute zero," but it has no scientific meaning.
     
    Fraggle Rocker, Aug 9, 2007
    #44
  8. Crunchy Cat

    Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,423
    Because that knowledge doesn't exist yet. The very fact that you are asking the question shows that you value having an answer (correct or incorrect) more than truth. That is not science. That is a precursor to delusion.

    Some hypothesis on what happened prior to inflation are:

    * Another inflation / deflation period... possibly cyclical and possibly indefinitely.

    * Another brane colliding with ours.

    * Steady-state 'pregnancy'.

    * Some other event of change in an infinite set of change events.
     
    Crunchy Cat, Aug 9, 2007
    #45
  9. Stryder

    Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,105
    The following is a piece of contempary fiction:

    ====
    Two minutes before the Big Bang a speech was given by a world renowned physicist, It entailed the usual pleasantries and expressed gratitude to all the hard working people that had made it all possible.

    "Without you all, this never would have been possible..." The physicists motions for the lights to be dimmed by one of his laboratory counterparts with which everyone's attention is focused on the projector screen in front of them. The screen is at that moment void of any representable shape, the rooms illumination is dark and the filled conference room awaits in anticipation.

    "Now without further ado..." show boating in all the styles of P.T.Barnham "Let their be Light!..." With that a flash appears on the screen, first starting as a small central pixel and the dimension increase in all directions. The birth of the universe is witnessed.
    ====

    The problem in this scenario is if you were born in this universe and exist to think within it, can you see outside the box in which you live. Can you see back to that Conference room where the first button was pushed or here the words as they are uttered?
     
    Stryder, Aug 9, 2007
    #46
  10. Fraggle Rocker

    Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    This is the old "cosmic watchmaker" theory. Our universe is a microcosm within a much more complex universe that we couldn't possibly understand, at least not without being able to observe it and use our own scientific method. Our universe was created by intelligent creature(s) in that universe. It was designed with the Euclidean geometry, Einsteinian physics, and other "natural laws" that we know, perhaps as special cases of natural laws in the larger universe. It's called the "cosmic watchmaker" theory because those creatures in essence built it the way it was at the Big Bang, wound it up, and watched it run.

    The cooling of the first wave of matter into stars and then planets, the formation of DNA from inorganic molecules, the evolution of life into intelligent creatures: All of this was either planned in detail by our creators, or was just the byproduct of the natural laws they designed for us.

    If this happened we have no way of knowing it. The creation and the beings who performed it are "supernatural" by our standards, although they are perfectly natural in their own universe. We cannot test this theory; it is not falsifiable. Therefore it is not a scientific theory, at least not until those creatures communicate with us or in some way reveal the existence of the larger universe. This does not mean it's wrong, it just means that it's not the province of science.

    In another version of the story, the "supernatural" creatures create a universe with perfectly crafted solar systems already in existence, perfectly crafted galaxies expanding away from each other, radioactive elements perfectly crafted to look like they're eons into their decay cycle, light waves in transit that are perfectly crafted to look like they came from stars billions of light-years away, troves of fossils perfectly crafted to look like the ancestors of the species now in existence, and archeological sites perfectly crafted to look like humans have been at work on this planet for a long time.

    We can't test or falsify this theory either, so it's not science.
     
    Fraggle Rocker, Aug 9, 2007
    #47
  11. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Singularities don't have any temperatures.
     
    TruthSeeker, Aug 9, 2007
    #48
  12. (Q)

    (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    I don't think so.

    Firstly, it might be a question better suited for Religion or Philosophy. And secondly, it is a very poorly thought out question for reasons already mentioned.
     
    (Q), Aug 10, 2007
    #49
  13. draqon

    draqon Banned Banned

    Messages:
    35,006
    world created itself. future created the past.
     
    draqon, Aug 10, 2007
    #50
  14. Orleander

    Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817
    You have got to be kidding me. Do my questions seem to be so intellectual as to hint that I know a damn thing about a singularity?? I had to look up what that was and I still don't know!

    think about it he says....sheesh!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Orleander, Aug 10, 2007
    #51
  15. Klitwo

    Klitwo Registered Member

    Messages:
    80
    I think just everything in the universe has some temperature associated to it except absolute zero maybe.
     
    Klitwo, Aug 10, 2007
    #52
  16. (Q)

    (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    There are only three properties of a black hole; mass, charge and spin.

    Hence, there is no radiation emitted that might quantify a temperature. If anything, they are at or very near absolute zero.
     
    (Q), Aug 10, 2007
    #53
  17. Klitwo

    Klitwo Registered Member

    Messages:
    80
    You got it right the first time. Near or very near absolute zero but 'not' absolute zero. Try one ten-millionth of a degree for starters. O.K.?

    http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/971111e.html
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2007
    Klitwo, Aug 10, 2007
    #54
  18. scorpius

    scorpius a realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,350
    good question,what do you think?
    ?
    now apply your answer to the Universe
    we werent around to watch,were you?
    yeah ,and if Queen had balls she would be the King!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    just b/c we dont know what was before BB dont mean we have to MAKE up some BS answers,best we can do is investigate all the evidence left over and try to figure out WHAT happened.

    or let BIGGER minds such as Hawking and others astrophysicists do
     
    scorpius, Aug 10, 2007
    #55
  19. joepistole

    joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    All things that are hot cool, except for me.
     
    joepistole, Aug 10, 2007
    #56
  20. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    What? Most people think they are hot (like whoever answered "very very very hot"). It has no temperature, no size, no nothing!
     
    TruthSeeker, Aug 10, 2007
    #57
  21. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    How would the singularity spin? Spin relative to what?
     
    TruthSeeker, Aug 10, 2007
    #58
  22. Oli

    Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,888
    It was hot - the Big Bang was post-singularity

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Oli, Aug 10, 2007
    #59
  23. Orleander

    Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817
    If it has no nothing, then why not call it nothing. Why fancy it up by calling it a singularity?
     
    Orleander, Aug 10, 2007
    #60
Page 3 of 4

Share This Page