1+1+1=1? What's Up with the Trinity?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by goofyfish, Feb 6, 2002.

  1. TheVisitor The Journey is the Reward Registered Senior Member

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    you do believe in sola-scriptura correct
    ----------------
    Not being a catholic, I have absolutly no idea what you are talking about here.
    All I know is I refered to some outside sources of ancient historians and you've attempted to use that as an excuse to dismiss the entire point of my post.
    What I posted was true, and the bible is my ultimate source...
    I don't need "outside" sources to be convinced, I only provide them for reinforcment of what the bible already says is true.
    Study to show thyself approved.
    I can respect your belief in Catholism if thats what it is you believe, and I'm not trying to "demonize" the people in there.
    It's the system that I must condemn and prove wrong, because it is leading people astray and attempting to suppress the truth.....and some people want to know whats truth if they are to hang thier souls on it and have something real in which to believe.
    When you come to that point it's no longer a game about debate, but the difference between life and death.
     
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  3. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    This is a Protestant belief. It loosely amounts to believing that the Bible is the sole authority. But when you rely way to much on outside sources and interpretations that require those sources, you put those sources on par with the Bible.

    There is so much fraudulent information being spread. Just look at M*W's beliefs. Half the stuff that she says comes from books, from supposivly "reliable" scholars.

    All it's necessary is for those people to believe in the Truth.
     
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  5. TheVisitor The Journey is the Reward Registered Senior Member

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    This is a Protestant belief. It loosely amounts to believing that the Bible is the sole authority. But when you rely way to much on outside sources and interpretations that require those sources, you put those sources on par with the Bible.
    -------------------
    Thanks for explaining that to me.
    I do believe the Bible is the sole authority, but in this case these historians are proving out what is in the bible.......
    Nimrod being the son of Cush who was the Son of Ham, the building of Babel and the world all being of one lauguage.
    Also the oriental comforters of Job believed in the One God Jehovah, at the time of the writing of the book of Job, which is considered to be the oldest book in the bible.
    But the real reason I took this article as a source of reference is because William Branham used it in His book "An Exposition of the Seven Church ages" and I believe the man to have been a prophet of God.
     
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  7. AmerEagle Registered Senior Member

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    Hello, Everyone,

    I haven't been here in years, just passing through now, and I just want to say "God's got lightning and stuff." We've had fair warning.

    That's the news in a nutshell. Like an earthly father only more so, He has the right to punish, even disinherit, but if we love Him, we get, along with some trials due to the opposers, mostly just blessings.

    No need to answer this post. I'm into true crime forums and probably will not be back. Have a nice day.
     
  8. the equation is 1 x 1 x 1= 1
    mine is, "since we are 3-D people, living in what looks to us as a 3-D universe, we understand only up to 3-D concepts, to me, God is multi-dimensional, multi-chronological, so that He exists in all time; past, present, & future, in all dimensions. when we see Him with our own 3-D eyes & mind, we can not comprehend what we 'see'. "

    read Daniel or Revelations, to see my point
    so, we're just an accident? E=MC2? so then, what started it all? why is there apparent order in the universe? why doesn't E=M+Cx3?

    so what was the "First Cause", if any?
     
  9. AmerEagle Registered Senior Member

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    Just a Minute

    It's been quite a while since I logged in, and reading this whole thread would take quite a while, but replying to just a few of the first posts,

    Jesus' saying, Why call ye me good?" was obviously to teach that men should not call each other good. Because only God is good.

    This time He wasn't talking about His being also God, just about men calling each other good.

    Many things have been fulfilled that were predicted, and there are some about the Last Days, when people can fly, (Revelation 12) and someone will be revealed, an imposter playing God, the Accuser of Re 12 and Opposer of 2nd Thess 2, making war on saints. (Any who believe his oppostie-of-Christianity propagandas will perish. Incl any pastors. Jeremiah says many of them eventually will be replaced for not helping the Christian woman he targets to get attention for himself, to get his foot in their doors in religion (heavenly) circles, evidently behind the scenes.

    The "Mens' Association" in the ORIGINAL version of Stepford Wives, an expose' type movie, partly fiction, may just be the worldwide "babylon" underground this beast uses against saints. Of course not all members of worldwide mens' associations would be hostile, but some will have fallen for the beast's accusations. In the original movie, which I think was in the 1970's, male members were told if they didn't go along with things, they would not be allowed to make a living, have jobs.

    Ancient Jeremiah says this "babylon" is destructive, has a loud voice. Some of us may have been victims and may have been told by associates that intruders were allowed into the workplace behind your back, but "who can fight the beast" until the Daniel 7 court case after he's caught?
    He uses the violence of the chaldeans (Muslims) as a cover, Habakkuk 2. I forget which verse but it's all very interesting reading. Doesn't it seem this could be happening? Maybe another double agent? I'm not claiming that's spelled out in detail in scripture. Some of the prophecies we're not meant to understand until their happening, a loose translation of Dan. 12:3.

    We may soon see some of this revealed, confirming that scriptures are true and a goldmine of vital information for SURVIVAL. We don't want to recklessly throw that away. I'm an older person, have seen a lot of the predictions come true. It's History, and Present and Future. Keep the faith. What could it hurt, and it might someday even save your life. For instance, it's dangerous to say anything about this beastly person with six letters in each name or his false prophet in religion trying to corrupt all the churches, causing a great falling away, only for a time. I have a tentative theory that it's through the terms of 8 "kings" or presidents since maybe JFK, because one is wounded in a way that would be expected to cause death but survived. That just COULD be Reagan. Revelation 17. My timing theory might need some fine tuning. Probably I don't have it entirely correct yet. For instance, "...a time, times, and half a time" I would think might mean half a presidential term in the great eagle nation, but aren't we already past the halfway point of an 8th president's term since JFK?

    "JMHO"
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2007
  10. nds1 Registered Senior Member

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    The idea of the Trinity never really made much sense to me.

    I've heard one Chrstian state at one point that the Holy Spirit was simply the spirit of God, rendering it not another person, but the spirit of God.

    A person denotes an individual. A person has a separate consciousness and ability to think and make their own decisions (Lucifer for example).

    This means that Jesus and the Holy Ghost/Spirit have their own knowledge base and their own self-wills as all spirits do. Every spirit is a separate conscious being which can make its own decisions, whether they can be right or wrong. A spirit can be a good or holy spirit, or an evil and corrupt spirit.

    Like all spiritual entities, Jesus must be his own spiritual entity separate from God just like every other angel. The Bible describes Jesus as being the "firstborn," or the first one created by God. So just like all the other angels, Jesus is a separate spiritual entity with a separate consciousness and which must make his own decisions (such as giving up his throne for a while to come down to the earth).

    The point is, if Jesus is one with God or equal to God, then how exactly is he equal to God? In power? In strength? In knowledge?
     
  11. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    Only the delusional, can think that some BS prediction has come true, non has come true, non was meant for these times. Read very well what the bible tells ya, read very well, and try to comprehend, that many of the bs predictions was suppose to happen whithin some of these people's life time. It didn't happen, the lunatic Jesus, if this character even existed, made predictions of his return, the way this is worded in the buybull gives an inclination that some of those present while he made the speech would live to see the day, this shit never happened.

    BTW welcome to sciforums. Although this here is a "relgion" section of a SCIENTIFIC forum, we require some shred of evidence to bold statements such as "many predictions I've seen in my life time" which? You can pin point this? can you? Did the buybull predict for instance hiroshima? WWI & WWII? WMD's in Irag? 9-11? what freaking predictions are we talking here?
     
  12. kl5k Registered Senior Member

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    That is not true. Jesus claimed to be God (see John 10:30). Even the Jews wanted to stone Him because of that claim and Jesus never tried to correct them on it.
     
  13. AmerEagle Registered Senior Member

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    "I And The Father Are One" (?)

    No time to look up the link in the post above which may be the same one.

    I'd have to go to BlueLetterBible.org , very easy to use phrase search, to look up my reference, think it's in the Bible in those words.

    I don't post very often, and don't seem to have the index page bookmarked, but here's an idea if anyone's ever in the mood to try a variation of the subject. Within the Christian religion, there's at least one or two "separatist" groups, one stating that instrumental music isn't in the New Testament authorized, for the church age. They know it is in Psalms, ("play skillfully") and in Revelation, and fear that the lack of mention for the church age is actually a prohibition. There's a forum or two, ex-members and otherwise, attempting to sort out the real intent, like in a Will.

    One possible argument is that an organ is just a glorified pitch pipe, which they use at the beginning of a song, but which may be out of key by the end, for all we know. Most of us aren't afflicted by Perfect Pitch, and the change would be so gradual we wouldn't know. In any kinds of groups there can be an occasional extremist, and some may be trying to "humble" musicians, accusing instrumentalists of pride, which is actually proof of their own pride, maybe calling themselves a movement.

    So if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty, there's a whole new can of worms. There's a prediction in the Bible about a heretic from hell in the time of flying who tries to get rid of a Christian woman by a flood of words against her. She may be a musician. Cross references such as jeremiah 6:27 show she's an individual, "AMONG the FLOCK", not a whole flock of any kind. I know, Catholics say Mary is still among them, but this woman flies, Revelation 12, and becomes like another Mary, mother of all who remain faithful to Christ rather than to the hater imposter.

    Whoever even believes his lies, heresies and slanders, will PERISH, 2nd Thess. 2:3-12. Interesting? He's in cahoots with someone in an underground organization who has six letters in each name. Everyone's heard of 666. The opposer-accuser making verbal WAR on saints, trying to project his uncomfortable guilts on them, is his "false prophet".

    Satan himself poses as one of the messengers of light, 2nd Cor. 11, has a pulpit, and also never keeps at home, campaigns behind the scenes against us in religion circles. For a time pastors fall for it, probably flattered to be contacted, but finally they shall see. Many of them will have been replaced, for not helping the woman, probably when her music career moves were sabotaged, just trying to placate her that she has no enemy doing things to her and her family.

    The world swallows up the flood against the woman, probably realizing the accuser is a sociopath/psychopath trying to project his own guilts, which is one of the ten most basic psychological Defense Mechanisms. Maybe he's the one who corrupted Nixon? Ezekiel says nobody can have any secrets from him. A series of presidents or kings fall for his line of bull and enable him, since JFK, but not including Lyndon Johnson? One was wounded in a way that normally would be fatal but lived, Reagan? See Revelation 17 for the series of "kings". Probably in the great eagle nation, since that's the wilderness where the targeted woman clothed with the sun flies to a new location. Jeremiah 12, some treacherous brothers with an obvious profit motive have some man thinking a long SEIGE is because of his beloved. It says believe them not, but evidently even presidents do, who don't know prophecy. There's a warning to a whole nation, last verse of that chapter, and the very famous chapter Isaiah 14 mentions he somehow destroys his own nation. Habakkuk 2, he uses the chaldeans as a "COVER". Laws will have been changed so that we can't out anyone we may suspect is CIA, but somehow some judgement will sit, Daniel 7, and none shall help him. Have fun. Who might he be?
     
  14. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    5,758
    I'm sorry, but no.

    jesus states in that same book that concerning the end times nobody knows except for the father. He makes the point of saying that even he doesn't know. The simple fact of the matter is that by not knowing something jesus cannot be omniscient and thus cannot be god. He goes on to say that god is greater than him. By being a lesser being than god he is not god. god indeed concurs with this and makes a vow that jesus is a priest - nothing more - for eternity. This priest position has been filled by many others before him, including melchizedek who will also be a priest forever. Both melchizedek and jesus are eternal beings, neither of them are gods.

    From there we could move on to Hebrews 5:7 -

    'During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him'

    As the above passage shows beyond any doubt, jesus was not perfect until made so through prayer to the only one that could save him. He learnt obedience etc etc before being "perfect".

    The simple fact that this person was not perfect shows that he cannot be god. The simple fact that he had to learn obedience etc through suffering and prayer shows beyond any doubt that this being is not god.

    Over to you...
     
  15. AmerEagle Registered Senior Member

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    Reply

    Thanks for the welcome. And to whoever said Did the Bible predict Hiroshima, well, even "many other things" Jesus did are not recorded because the Book would be so big earth couldn't contain it, if absolutely everything was included. Someone here will know exactly where that's found, I'm sure. I should have done a copy/paste of your post or printed it out in order to remember all the points to try to answer. Maybe I'll try again.
     
  16. AmerEagle Registered Senior Member

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    65
    Bitterness?

    If I gave examples of prophecies I've seen fulfilled in my 71 yrs, it'd almost take a book, and if you can't respect Bible, you wouldn't respect what I'd write either, would just say I'm delusional.

    Just in case any of us could help about whatever has made some of you so bitter, would you care to briefly explain it? True believers are kind-hearted and want to help as long as you will be fair too. We're taught to do unto others as we'd want done unto us if we were in others' shoes, empathy. And believe it or not, it makes us pretty happy, being helpful, even when it may not be immediately appreciated. It's predicted that we sometimes will be misunderstood and even persecuted, which we're supposed to take as an honor. We're not permitted to say things like "Thou fool", which I guess includes "You idiot". You gotta admit that alone would make us better people.

    Do you feel the same way about other religions that don't have Christ in them? Christianity is the only one where someone died for us. One of the TV preachers, an African-American "motivational" speaker who's very uplifting says Adam loved his wife enough to die with her, but Christ loved His bride, the church, enough to die FOR her. None of the mere men who started other religions would even think about doing anything like that.
     
  17. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    4,197
    Yes!

    (A person with delusional disorder can be quite functional and does not tend to show any odd or bizarre behaviour except as a direct result of the delusional belief.) Wiki...

    Thus you can act normal in all aspects of your life, but when it comes to your believes in god, fairies, devils, prophecies, etc... You are by default delusional. Cause non of the above beliefs can be shown to be valid!
     
  18. AmerEagle Registered Senior Member

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    Certainly Can Be Proven, Can't Be Disproven!

    Again, don't ask me to list all the proofs, which is a SPECIALTY of some of the pastors, and I think you'd be rude enough to call everyone dillusional, rather than take an honest look at whether you aren't in fact dillusional, the pot calling the kettle black. "What goes around comes around," and however you judge others you will be judged.

    So it's useless attacking what actually makes us all better people when we all need all the help we can get.

    Once you become a believer in Christ, there's still a few problems, which you can allow to bother you or not, churches all being run by humans who may never get it all perfectly correct, even the few separatist groups who may claim they know it all and are better than all the others. There's not much to be done about it so we may as well compartmentalize it and go thru the motions of living our lives and being happy and secure in the knowledge Somebody Up There Loves Us. If that could be disproven, which it can't be, and I will not continue to argue about it, no harm will have been done by believing it. The belief will have made us better persons.

    That's that.

    A final false prophet will be covertly trying to take over the world, maybe corrupted Nixon, and like that, just filling in blanks with plausible guesses, in the time of flying and a series of kings or presidents, probably since JFK. He was to be known if they'd known Revelation 12 when the series, and apparent conspiracies with the leaders in Re 17, one of them wounded probably Reagan, and one who does exactly as he pleases. None of us probably have ever heard of this scenario, meaning supposed to be sealed until the time of the end of time, as ancient prophet Daniel was told, chapter 12. It may be a few more years before he's revealed and dealt with, a traitor, Isaiah 14, Lucifer one of the many names for him, having somehow destroyed his own nation. (Morally?) Nobody can keep any secrets from him, somewhere in Ezekiel, maybe chapter 37 but I don't remember for sure, so he may be abusing technology, enabled by these presidents, until his time is up.

    Obviously, Don't go "preaching" this, or people will think YOU are delusional. I just thought it might be interesting to dig in. You have to read the Bible for yourself to find and jot down cross references which can be put together for such a story if you're interested and want to watch for it. I'm not listing them. Don't ask. Too much work and I'm just human. Good luck.
     
  19. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    AmerEagle this is a science forum, with a sub-forum on religion, if I were to comment I have a purple dinosaur as a pet in my garage, you would ask me to provide evidence of my claim, saying that many bible prophesies have come to past is no different, evidence must be presented in order to make such a claim as valid.

    I beg to differ that beliefs in fairy tales makes us all better people, look at the history of the world, and you come to realize that most conflicts of world scale have been from one form of religious ideology against another, when a clan of misfits try to manipulate by force, this does not make us all better. And indoctrination by threat of hell is a form of psychological force! All religious beliefs carry basically the same message, "believe or else"

    You are assuming here, that I've never been a religious person, the truth however is far from that. I was indoctrinated as a child in religion, however when I grew up, I gave up such childish beliefs! Beliefs in fairy tale are delusional, if there was one true religion, and the whole world would have never been in conflict with theological differences, it would still be delusional belief unless evidence of claims made by ancient texts can be validated, other then that it requires faith in such claims to be truth, and faith is not truth but beliefs with out evidence!
     
  20. AmerEagle Registered Senior Member

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    Wrong, I Wasn't. You Can't Validate That. No Evidence.

    Quote: "You are assuming here, that I've never been a religious person, the truth however is far from that.

    I was indoctrinated as a child in religion, however when I grew up, I gave up such childish beliefs! Beliefs in fairy tale are delusional, if there was one true religion, and the whole world would have never been in conflict with theological differences, it would still be delusional belief unless evidence of claims made by ancient texts can be validated, other then that it requires faith in such claims to be truth, and faith is not truth but beliefs with out evidence!"

    Actually, on my way to the grocery store after posting this morning I did think about you a little, and wondered what had happened, somebody died that you'd asked God to save, or SOMETHING, beyond just prolonged teenage rebellion, and I'm even wondering if you were brought up in a separatist group which is against instrumental music, about which there are some online forums/support groups for ex-members. Yes, some of them may indeed have a terrorist attitude, as you say, of "Believe our way or else," and for all I know, they may indeed bedevil people, what the Bible refers to as "wicked ways". Surprise, surprise. If you're an escapee, that could explain you. Notice I already said there's no perfect group because until the Second Coming mere humans won't perfectly understand everything.

    BTW, before the world's worst hypocrit is exposed as a traitor to his own nation, I guess there will be more attacks on Israel. I've studied clues about him but not much about Israel because others are doing that. A man on religious TV last night was saying they will choose this imposter who's only pretending to be religious, to bring them a peace arrangement, but it will not last long. I don't claim to have studied that.

    When these things do come to pass, I hope you'll not be too embarrassed having gone too far out on a limb, which may be a symptom of some kind of post traumatic stress, if you've had some, which I sympathetically suspect.

    Sorry about whatever may have happened in your life, and that you may feel a need to "take it out on" God or religious people who can be stupid just like the rest of us at times. Would you feel any better if you tell us what happened? If not, "sorry 'bout that", like I said. Things happen to us all.
    An extremist group may even try to break up families, they're so sure they're right and the rest of the world, the rest of the denominations, are wrong.

    God says through ancient Isaiah, something about they'll finally begin to learn true doctrine, I forget exactly where in Isaiah, and something about "no more pricking briar". If you're old enough to remember the PTL breakdown, you may remember the media quoting "If my people which are CALLED BY MY NAME...will humble THEMSELVES....." emphasis mine, obviously, "and repent of their wicked ways"...then will I hear from heaven and heal their LAND. I just have a hunch they may have been the ones corrupting Nixon, nothing to base it on, I believe I told you, that I'm guessing, based on the series of kings or presidents in Revelation 17 sort of matching a series we've had. I realize you didn't much notice that, and didn't really expect you to, knew it was a mouthful nobody would get all in one take. When and if my scenario unfolds, just remember somebody guessed it in advance from doing their own investigation into prophecy to see if anything would match.

    I never said I could prove this tentative theory, just showing how interesting Bible can be if you investigate on your own instead of taking anyone else's word for it. I meant to look up a couple of words before talking to you again, and, sorry, I forgot.

    I'm old enough to have forgotten if the study of Evidences is ESCHATOLOGY, and if APOLGETICS is the same thing.

    Went to a church college more than 50 yrs ago. Age is my excuse. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. You'd have to ask someone whose who gets paid to know those things, most of us don't delve into. There may be a good book available also to explain it all. I worked for the college as a pianist, so music was the most important thing to me. Still belong to the Union. You a musician by any chance?
     
  21. Markx Registered Senior Member

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    970
    Actually it is a blunder. A lie. A deliberate confusion, created by the few to keep the Christianity afloat. There is no equation like some one mentioned above, this equation is keep changing according to different people.

    First there was only Christ, Son of Marry.

    Then comes a delusional and mentally instable guy name Saul, commonly known as Paul, he had a "dream" and Christ told him that he is god. From that point on, Christianity changed.

    Bible had been distorted, this religion had been transformed, from a single god entity, that is "Father" himself to triune god. Today's Christian worship three gods, Jesus Christ ( by the way he never said HE is God and Worship Him Only) then the "Father" and lastly some alien being called Holy Ghost, you see that all the time on TV. Lots of Evangelicals happened to have him/her in them and it heals them instantly.

    There is lot more in between and this fictional story of Christ and god and many other things in between. I am sure you all have heard it before. I was just trying to summarized it. I don't think that I did the justice but I tried.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2007
  22. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    4,197
    If you are truly 71 forgive my arrogance, I understand when getting older it's harder to accept reality of no gods, and that perhaps one has been deceived for the entirety of their lives. My turning my back on religion was not out of a drastic occurrence, nothing happened, I only educated myself in psychology and philosophy, those led to studying astronomy, archeology, and a bit of evolutionary sciences, I was introduced to Objectivism, the philosophy of Ayn Rand, and from there on I slowly but surely turned my back on religious rhetoric, and realized it's only a primitive attempt at explaining metaphysics in our ancient past, the bible is only a story of people's life and struggle written by many authors, the bible is an account of many stories of ancient peoples all put on one book.

    That's why many of it's story is somewhat similar to other societies other than the Hebrews, the ten commandments is similar to commandments written on the walls of ancient Egyptians book of the dead, other similar stories are that of Gilgamesh's Epic, just to name but a few!


    Theologians have been interpreting bible prophesies with events of our times, however get a thousand of interpreters of bible prophesies, and you'll get a thousand different set of prophesies, all from the predictions of Napoleon Bonaparte to Hitler, and any great deviant who has brought world wars to our lives, I believe these were called "anti-christs" any how this all just a matte of interpretation. It changes as some changes in our societies do happen, bible scholars are not all sure or in agreement of all supposed predictions, there is a fine line between "reality" and interpreting ancient text, as if the future has been foretold.

    PTL? LOL... The Bakers who made billions of dollars and have even gold faucet in their waterloo? No this only shows how easy it is for these deceivers and usurpers who live off the innocent but ignorant believers, what I've realized is that many of these do still exist, and still they live off those whom they usurp with false promises, and false hopes, religion is big business, it ought to be taxed!

    We had a character here on Sciforums, he called himself SouthStar his by line was "defender of the faith", he would dance circles around some bible scholars with all his knowledge of scripture, he was a very good bible quoter, and seemed to have known and understood the document very well. Though spending a few years here on Sciforums and engaging in many debates, there's one thing we noticed about this fella he was honest, and this brought him to a realization of which he changed his ways, and basically became an atheist. What do you suppose happened? He wrote his post after a long vacation from Sciforums and his bi line read "I want to believe" his post renouncing religion was and is one best threads this forum has seen for quite a while, many people got involved in discussing his despair, and his troubled mind, but this person latter turned out to be a good debater against religion even using the bible as his guide, to refute theistic claims!

    Many atheist here know the bible very well, many were once religious, but we've all come to a conclusion, with out evidence of the claims made in bibles, it all boils down to having faith in unsupported ancient claims.
     
  23. hug-a-tree Live the life Registered Senior Member

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    673
    I am a daughter, sister, and will be an aunt. I am three things but I am still one person.
     

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