Objects Of Unknown Origin And Moon Dust

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by btimsah, Jul 12, 2006.

  1. btimsah Registered Senior Member

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    J-Dawg, thanks for your response;

    You're funny statement about these "sketpics meeting in places" to discuss how their going to debunk UFO crackpots brought a reminder of just such a meeting. Ever heard of Michael Shermer? I think I spelled that right. He and a lot of "scientists, turned skeptics" had just this sort of meeting. In the meeting one gentleman stood up and suggested scientists should refer to the theory of evolution, as the fact of evolution. Many people applauded, and agreed with him. This guy represents the problem with this new subsect of science. An almost dogmatic approach which offends the true scientists. This guy was is so caught up in debate I guess he forgot the theory of evolution, is still just a theory.

    As for these other cases with evidence; I suppose one good one would be the Betty and Vicky Cash story. 3 people in Texas are driving when a UFO with intense heat intersects the road their on. They stop and Betty get's out to see what this thing is. They see a diamond shaped craft being followed by numerous army helicopters. All 3 suffer from radiation poisening, and Betty was the one who got the closest to the object and suffered from extremely high doses of radiation from this object - had welts and severe burns to her face and arms. Other witnesses in the rural area verify the object was seen AND followed by numerous helicopters. The burn spot on the road was verified before the patch of road was pulled up and replaced.

    Anyways, the army said no we were not in the area. No helicopters were in the area and we don't know what this object was. I think we women are now deceased.

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  3. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Well, while it is theory, evolution has tons of supporting evidence. Yes, it may remain a theory forever, simply because there might not be a real way to absolutely prove it, but that doesnt' change the fact that it's the single best explanation. This man obviously is passionate about his belief, and has unfortunately forgotten that science doesn't work that way; there are still a few holes in the theory, and they might be there forever. You can't just decide to make it a science fact, you have to prove it.

    But don't worry. Just because these guys were scientists doesn't put them in any position of power. Evolution is still a theory; they haven't changed anything. They're probably considered whackos by their peers, just like UFO believers are considered whackos by everyone else...and with good reason.

    OK, interesting story. I did some research, and I'll be honest: I don't know what the hell that thing was supposed to be. There seems to be some independant eyewitness testimony which supports the claims of both the UFO and the helicopters, but still...

    Here's my problem, btimsah: The immediate jump from the object being a UFO to being an alien spacecraft. How do you get there? How do you get from "What the hell was that thing?" to "That was an alien spaceship!"? How do you get there, man?

    How do you know the thing wasn't a secret US aircraft? How do you know it wasn't a secret foreign aircraft, for that matter?

    I'm willing to say that if this story is true (which there is nothing to say that it is for sure) there still remains nothing to make the conclusion that this UFO was extraterrestrial. No matter what happens--if the cover ups are true, if disinformation does happen, if Area 51 did in fact deal with secret technology--it doesn't change the fact that there is a very reasonable, if yet-unknown, explanation for all of this.

    Roswell was a weather balloon. Kecksburg was a Russian satellite. This case? Who knows? But I'm willing to bet that it wasn't an alien spacecraft.

    It's as easy as that.

    JD
     
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  5. btimsah Registered Senior Member

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    If Roswell was the Mogul weather balloon then why all the secrecy and fake stories? Don't say because it was top secret - because days earlier the Mogul balloon was photographed and written about in a local newspaper and nobody really cared about it. Furthermore, the debris field was much too large for a balloon. Many people were told not to talk about it, and threatened one station with it's license by the FCC - afterward, went with the "weather balloon story". Military witnesses involved in the cover-up still say it was ET's that were recovered. I could go on and on, because the balloon story is just bunk and has been completely de-bunked. As for the Betty Cash story - The 3 tried to charge the government (to get money for their medical bills primarily) because they still thought it was our object. The airforce has always said that they were no in the area that night and that the helicopters reported by them and other witnesses were not ours. Their doctor has said he knows they suffered radiation poisening and he needed to know what kind of radiation they were exposed too, but that's something that will never happen.

    So, if this object was ours and almost killed these 3 people then it's an even worse story for our so-called democracy. I have no idea what this object was. I don't know if it was an ET driving it - however I can theorize. I'm using this case to illustrate the method of the coverup, as well as the typical circumstances that always seem to follow them.

    I'm glad we brought up evolution. Maybe I should refer to my belief as the Theory of ETI?

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  7. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Well, I don't deny that it might possibly have not been a weather balloon. It might have been something else, perhaps a top-secret somethingorother that the Air Force didn't want us to know about.

    I don't claim to know what happened. I wasn't there. The official release was that it was a flying saucer, but within an hour, that changed. Perhaps some miscommunication took place. Maybe they got it wrong. Whatever the case is, the fact that the US Air Force first reported that it was a flying saucer speaks to me that they aren't trying to hide a damned thing.

    My best guess is that they looked at the debris, and listened to Brazell's statement, and said "Yeah, sure, it's a flying saucer." They reported it, and the press release went out. Even if they had collected it, there is nothing to say that anyone on the scene would have a clue as to what either of the objects (a secret technology/flying saucer) would really look like up close. You have to remember that this was 1947, not 2006. Today, if a saucer landed in our backyard, we'd know what it was, simply because we've been flooded with a million possibilities as to what an alien craft might look like. Back then, nobody had any idea. It would have been easier to confuse a flying saucer with a balloon or something else back then than today.

    And for the record...if an F-117 Nighthawk, or a B-2 Spirit landed in your yard 10 years ago, you might think it was an alien spacecraft. There were how many UFO reports based on the F-117?

    Bogus. The reported size of the "flying saucer" was about 25 feet in diameter, as was the size of the balloon. I have yet to read an argument that states that fact, including from Mac Brazell himself. All he said was that it didn't look like a weather balloon, not that there was too much debris for it to be one.

    Did you ever consider that perhaps once the RAAF realized that it was not a flying saucer that they tried to stop the wrong story from spreading? I mean, if they figured out that they had something else rather than an alien craft, why would it not be in everyone's best interest to nip the gossip in the bud? Wouldn't that make sense?

    Wrong. Jessie Marcel spilled a story to the National Enquirer in 1980, two years after the publication realized that there was a renewed interest in the story. His testimony is the only one that bears any credibility--seeing as he was there, and all--but this was also 33 years after the fact, and, dude, it was the National Friggin' Enquirer. They've claimed Elvis and his alien wife birthed a set of hybrid triplets. I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. It's a rag paper and just because they managed to get an old Jessie Marcel to say something to the effect of "I think there was a cover-up" does not mean it was true. Also, seeing as Marcel was the head of the Counterintelligence Corps, don't you think he might have had an inside track on information such as this? But the best he can offer is an opinion, an old, senile opinion 33 years removed from the incident. I'm sorry, but if Marcel had any credibility to his story, he would have had some solid facts.

    That is a lie. The Mogul story is the result of a 1995 investigation, and has not been "debunked" in any way shape or form. The believers will just toss it aside, saying that Brazell didn't think it was a balloon, but that's their entire basis for dismissal.

    You need to face facts: The government made an error, then the corrected it, and they even investigated it later and made two reports on the incident. Unless that fucking report had "Yes, it was a UFO with five aliens in it" you were NOT going to believe it, and simply say "No, they're just covering it up."

    NOTHING that the government says will please you. You will ignore every evidence, every official press release, every single fact of the case so long as it contradicts the idea that an UFO crashed in Roswell in 1947. That makes you a close-minded idiot, my friend. You are blind to any possibility other than your own personal belief. That is very sad, and entirely annoying.

    This UFO thing is your religion, pal. You're no better than someone who follows God blindly.

    Yeah, I know what you're doing. And it still doesn't work. You just immediately assume that every cover up is with malicious intent, and deals with ET. It's fucking laughable. You don't ever look at the real world, pal. You don't cosider political climate, or other factors for which the government would keep something a secret, if they're doing it at all. National Security is a real issue, and if the government doesn't want something getting out, then I trust them, and it doesn't mean it has a damned thing to do with UFOs! There are REAL threats, and were real threats in those days. Mogul was a top-secret program--there was no front page story and picture about it days before, get that shit out of your head--and if they didn't want one of their enemies to hear about it, they had to hide it. That could be where the weather balloon came from. Hell, maybe they said "Yeah, let's go with the flying saucer story" as their cover up for the real thing!

    Back then, UFOs weren't as hot a topic as they are today. The Mogul thing might have crashed, and with the recent reports of flying saucers, perhaps they saw it as a viable means to keep their project a secret. Once the pentagon got flooded with calls, the government was caught with their pants down, because they didn't REALLY have a crashed flying disk, so they changed the story. Why is something like THAT so hard to believe, but the idea of an intelligent race flying from another galaxy (only to somehow crash...) is just fine by you? C'mon, man...join us in the real world.
     
  8. btimsah Registered Senior Member

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    Wrong: The testimony from multiple witnesses involved in the Roswell case directly report the military trying to push the weather balloon story. I find it fascinating how you seem to be saying, the Mogul balloon was so top secret, they hid that - YET HERE THEY WERE CHANGING THE STORY TO A WEATHER BALLOON.

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    Wtf? And you say I'm the one not in reality?

    You seem to be suggesting they could have been incorrect when they said it was a flying disk. Perhaps, but at this point it's hard to know what the REAL truth is, because whatever that real truth is - it's being covered up.

    He said the debris covered too much area to be a weather balloon. Further analysis done (Check Stanton Friendmans website) has proven that the Mogul balloon could not have accounted for the amount of debris recovered. Because - well basically because it had nothing to do with mogul.

    You have it backwards, given all the fact's and testimony from the case, the balloon story does not make any sense. It's fascinating how in both the Kecksburg and now the Roswell case, the explanation is both instances is stupidity. Just a dumb mistake, for in some cases, high ranking officials.

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    The idea that Marcel could not have identified this as a weather balloon or something of our own is not likely. Therefore, DEBUNKED.

    Everything you wrote above is not a lie, it's ignorant and ignorantly mallicious against Marcell. I know he does not help your case, so your just attacking him but that only makes your argument weaker. It shows you have no substance, other than to selectively tear down the witnesses as opposed to his story. He's told numerous other magazines, reporters and researchers the same story, yet you go and pick out the most "laughable" one you can find and then pounce as though you found something? This is pathetic..

    I will toss it aside, because it does not match the facts and testimony we've gotten from the case. Which, if you think Brazell is the only witness I could see why you find it laughable.

    I like how you just made this fact up on your on. Where's your proof or documentation? Are you sure your not a ufologist?

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    lol - okay. I guess I'm as nuts as Marcel. (haha)

    JDawg, you are a terrible sketpic. But to be fair, I was wrong. The NATIONAL PRESS RELEASE involving a story on the mogul weather balloon was done DAYS AFTER the Roswell crash. - That's from one of the foremost DEBUNKERS ON THE MJ-12 Documents, Kevin Randall.

    Boy, that thing was so top secret.. As for "what I'm doing". I'm pissing you off because you have not really studied this entire case. You've only tried to "debunk the case" so you only have that knowlege in your head, so you can't really debate it.
     
  9. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Finish reading my post before you blast me. I'm just giving theories here.

    It's funny you say that, because you claim to already know the real truth. And secondly, how the fuck do you know it's covered up? Man, always jumping to conclusions. Just because they took back the original statement, you figure it's a big conspiricy to hide the existance of aliens from us. Yep, their hiding it, which is why we're spending billions of dollars a year at NASA searching for extraterrestrial life...but yeah, we're totally hiding it.

    Yep. I'm sure he's a real expert in the field. He had collected two weather balloons previously, and now all of a sudden he's a pro. Couldn't have been a DIFFERENT KIND of weather balloon. Nope. It HAS to be an alien spacecraft.

    Why not? There were decades between these two events, with different people involved. Is there no chance for error? Oh, no, that's right, our governmental officials are robots built for the sole purpose of making shit up. Yep. Lieing machines.

    HAHAHAHAHAHA! So "not likely" equals "debunked"? So in that case, the idea that the Roswell incident included an extraterrestrial spacecraft is also debunked, using your logic. Because it is unlikely that an alien spacecraft crashed. Wow. That was easy.

    Roswell DEBUNKED.

    No. What I am doing is stating a fact. Marcel was more than 3 decades removed from the incident, and more than 3 decades older. Age does things to the human mind in many cases, but let's not even make that the reasoning here...let's just look at the fact that Jessie Marcel was a human being. Human beings lie. They make stuff up. They do it for reasons that sometimes don't even make sense, thanks to the process of abstract thought which provided us an advantage over Neanderthals. Money, fame, who knows? Old age? Sure. There are a million reasons why Jessie Marcel could have made the story up. And to me it sounds fishy that he chose the absolute biggest piece of bullshit magazine in American culture to report it to. The National Enquirer is a tabloid that reports utter nonsense, and what do you know? That's where Marcel's story broke.

    I don't believe him for a second. 33 years later he decides to talk? No way. Why not immediately? Or following his retirement?

    And again, not to sound repetetive, but he didn't provide any other remarkable information other than "I think there was a cover-up." You have to stop looking at the trees, and start looking at the forrest to understand, I guess: Marcel was the Counterintelligence Corps leader. He was the man in that department, so to speak. How did he not have anything else to offer, or at least something solid besides an opinion? Why could he have not said "We had this, I know it, and we had that, I know it, and the meeting went like this...(because you know any meeting involving the matter would have included him)..." but he didnt'. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it. Too much time between the incident and the story, and too many reasons for him to lie.

    The facts? You ignore the facts. The fact is that the RAAF pulled their story and gave us the real story. You just won't believe that becuase you have some preconcieved notion that they're lying. The problem lies within you, not the government; you have built a mistrust thanks to sensationalistic reporting on television, which is really only done for ratings, not for scientific value. Thanks to that, you refuse to believe.

    Didn't make it up. Just another theory. And a REASONABLE theory, unlike the idea that a fucking UFO crashed in Roswell.

    Not saying he's nuts, but don't you ever consider that it's a possibility? I mean, could he not have lost a little mental capacity over the years? No? Senility is another governmental hoax? I see...

    OK, so here's what happens: They report erroniously, then correct it once they figure the damned thing out. To ease the minds of the people, they even release a story about the actual cause of the uproar. They lay it out for the American people; "Here you go guys, sorry about the misunderstanding". And you know what? It was OK with the people! The story was all but forgotten for 30 friggin' years, until some ratings-grabbing television show decided to bring it up again, probably during sweeps week. Then, all of a sudden, when the iron was hot, Marcel's story comes out.

    Years later, under political pressure, there is yet ANOTHER investigation.

    We'll pause the tape here.

    Now, let's just say that the fucking this was a UFO from Venus or something...now, the government in place during the time of the incident is all either dead or retired, and here is this great opportunity to tell the truth. Here is the chance for the truth to come out and all the minds to be eased. There would be no political consequence, no power moves to hold down the people blowing the lid off this huge cover up. Here is our moment, humanity's moment to finally learn what the hell happened at Roswell.

    But again, the result of the investigation comes up with normal explanations for the incident.

    Are we satsified? No way! Why? Because it goes against everything these whackjobs and screwballs have been told to believe by the sensationalistic media and the internet! So normal people--the people who use reason and common sense, and empirical fact and evidence to make their claims--are finally satisfied. But not you guys. NOTHING EXCEPT HEARING THAT ALIENS CRASHED ON EARTH will satisfy you. Face it, admit it, own it. There would be nothing that the government could provide you that would make you believe otherwise. Nothing.

    Now, being this "terrible skeptic" that you claim I am, if the government came out tomarrow and said "Yeah, well, we were full of shit," then you know what? I'd belive them. I'd say "well, damned if I wasn't dead wrong this whole time" and be done with it.

    And the last point is, why would they cover it up? We spend billions of dollars on our space program, and we could milk the American people for billions more if we could show proof of alien visitation. Could you imagine the money the government would rake in? Even the crooked fucks could cash in! They could start bogus programs, bogus fundraising, whatever! And I still think it is absolutely insane to think that the American government would cover up the very thing they're spending billions of dollars a year looking for!

    The bottom line is that you and your kind are single-minded. If the Air Force were to take you on a tour of every secret military base in the nation, showing you every damned thing there was to see regarding the incident, and proved to you that it was a terrestrial object, you'd still come out and say that they just hid the good stuff! That's EXACTLY your problem, and you know it.

    JD
     
  10. btimsah Registered Senior Member

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    Oh, I thought I needed wake up to your "facts"? I guess they were theories after all. Oh well.. You'll have to forgive me. Your long paragraphs and contradictions make it difficult to understand exactly what your point is.

    Well, I gather you think they were hiding something. Right? So, are you also jumping to that same conclusion? Granted, we may think they are hiding something different.. But a "conspiracy" is a conspiracy. Even if it's top secret. The reason I follow the ET hypothesis is because given the evidence in the case, it's the only find that fits. It's the only hypothesis which makes sense of the deep security threat, along with the testimony. The others do not. It's also important to understand that after Kecksburg, WE KNOW our military will lie. So, I find it amazing you trust them more than the eye witnesses. Why do debunking skeptics always trust a military which is prone to secrecy to tell us the truth over witnesses? Yet another strange way of thinking in the mind of a skeptic.

    Well, actually the rancher who recovered the flying disk HAD RECOVERED SEVERAL BALLOONS BEFORE OUT THERE. He was familiar with them. Furthermore, Marcel was also familiar with them.

    Okay, answer me this. What mistake did they make? (In this case, not the other one your trying to debunk).

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    This is where the importance of the Kecksburg case comes in. It illustrates we have hidden "UFO's" before and lied about them. Thus, the alien spacecraft hypothesis is only unlikely because of what could have been potentially covered up.

    It's important too understand that when you investigate, you can't just stop at the military explanation for everything. You can dig further. Especially when you have so many cases which all have a very similar story line and theme. Involving the same cover-up, of the same thing.

    Wow! Jessie Marcel's story is corroberated by his son, among other witnesses. He's been consistant and has not once been called dishonest. His son is still telling the damn story today. Furthermore, I find it AMAZING that you still consider the governments explanation more believable than his. We've just established the fact that the military is dishonest when dealing with UFO's and yet you still think the military is more honest than him. You really must not understand the term "honest". Remember how their prone to secrecy?

    Given the military's tendency to coverup hidden/test objects, why do you trust their story over his?

    I could not really translate any of that above. It would appear you are in the process of convincing yourself he's lying. So you just start typing b.s. That's some high quality evidence you have that he's lying.

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    Those are the governments facts. The witnesses have been proven to be more honest and trustworthy than our military involving this case. Maybe one day you will understand this. Untill then you will always be way out there.

    I don't think anyone in the Roswell case is nuts. At least I've seen nobody suggest that. There's no reason to assume he's crazy. You seem to think I need provide evidence he's not crazy. Give me a lifetime and maybe I'll do that.

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    Wow. Is that what skeptics call proving a negative?

    Okay, nice hypothesis. It's all bullshit, but nonetheless I'd rather move this debate forward. I can admit that the case is still unsolved and will probably always be. Because, we don't know for a fact what the (fuck) crashed out there that night. However, we can both hypothesis and are doing that.

    However, this thread is about project Moon dust, Kecksburg and objects of unknown origin.
     
  11. Balerion Banned Banned

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    No, I'm not saying I think they're hiding something. It's pretty evident that in the Kecksburg case that they did hide something, but there isn't anything solid about the Roswell case that says they are hiding anything.

    Because they got their facts mixed up? That doesn't mean it was a cover up.

    We know our military will lie if it is in the nation's best interest. Witnesses? Who witnessed Roswell? The best we've ever gotten out of anyone was "I don't know what the hell it was, but it wasn't of this world..." which is not a statement that anyone who HAS come forward was qualified to make.

    Again, I'm not saying that at some point the military hasn't covered something up. But why the jump to extraterrestrials? Because a few people said that they were? How would they know? Yet another strange way of thinking in the mind of a believer.

    Brazell had recovered two previously. Two. Not ten, not six, not twenety. Two. And I beg you, what makes you think that it could not have been a different kind of balloon? The balloon the Air Force described was of the same reported size as the object that came crashing down, so what makes it so obscene to think that the thing was just a different kind of balloon? I see no reason to not believe that.

    Again, pure hypothosis, but backed by official Air Force releases and several official investigations: They made the mistake of taking the rancher for his word. When he said it was a saucer that crashed, they believed him. Upon closer inspection, it turned out to be a terrestrial object. They made the mistake of reporting the thing to be a saucer when they didn't know for sure.

    Exactly. They could have been covering up something else for all we know. I guess my problem isn't that they covered something up, but the irresponsible belief that it was an alien spacecraft. Our government has proven that they will protect us when the time arises, as was the case in Kecksberg. When a soviet satellite crashed on our soil, instead of putting us at risk by admitting we had a secret technology of the USSR, they lied and said they didn't. Later, they admitted that they did have a soviet satellite, becuase there was no longer a threat.

    It wouldn't surprise me if something similar happened here.

    I understand what you're saying, but it's not true that we have "so many cases" or that they all follow the same theme. If by "theme" you mean the idea that things keep falling out of the sky, then you're right. But things always fall out of the sky. There's a lot of stuff up there!

    There are two major cases in which UFO believers point to; Kecksberg and Roswell. That's it. And the only theme in either of them is mistakes made by the military which caused an uproar. They've both been explained, however. At some point, you have to realize that they're not always trying to hide stuff. Roswell may be a cover up, and Kecksberg was a cover up, but there's no real evidence that says they involved aliens. Nothing.

    Wow! Jesse Marcel's son was a little kid at the time, and only recalled ANYTHING when he was put under hypnosis! Yeah, I'd call that dependable...please... He says of the objects he only remembered once he was hypnotized, and I quote,

    "They were not of this world, trust me. They looked like material, but they were light as a feather."

    Yeah. That sounds very out of this world to me, that's for sure. C'mon, people. This guy IDOLIZES his father. He's even a military man, (Col. Jessie Marcel Jr) and has heard so much of his father's story that it does not surprise me that he would believe anything he was told. Add to that, again, that Marcel Jr didn't recall any of the details until he was put under hypnosis, and I call his entire testimony into question.

    Who, Jr. or Sr.? If you're talking about Maj. Jesse Marcel, I call bullshit on your comment. He's been called into question PLENTY. Here's proof:

    --He claimed to have been a pilot since 1928 with over 3000 logged flight hours, yet the FAA has no record of Jesse Marcel. Also, his Reserve Officer Career Brief, dated Nov 20, 1947, lists his flying experience as "none".

    --He also claims to have shot down five enemy planes, yet there is no record of him even flying a plane, let alone shooting an enemy one down.

    --He claims that he was an aid to Gen. Hap Arnold, and that Arnold made the decision for Marcel to go to intelligence school, but his first assignment in the military was as a student in the Army Air Forces Intelligence School (AAFIS), so the decision to send him there was made before he even became a member of the armed forces.

    --Marcel claimed that he didn't know about his promotion to Lt. Col in the Reserves until after he left the service. This claim was an effort to back his story that the Air Force intentionally kept him "too busy following the Roswell incident to even check his personnel files". Yet, in a letter dated Oct 29, 1947 Marcel actually applied for the promotion. It gets better. In a letter dated Nov 20, 1947, Marcel was informed that the request for the promotion was approved, but it would be canceled unless he signed the acceptance oath "within a reasonable time". And on Dec 1, 1947, Marcel signed the oath, and officially accepted the promotion, totally contradicting his claim.

    --Marcel claimed that he had a bachelor's degree in physics from GW University, and had attended LSU, NYU, and OSU. Yet in personell files, Marcel's claim is that he attended LSU for one year as a non-credit student. Also, LSU has no record of Marcel (But they do of his son). Even better, GWU has no record of him even attending the school, let alone graduating. A second search was conducted of the records, and the same result came up.

    --Marcel claimed that he wrote the report that President Truman read on the air regarding Russia exploding an atomic device, but Truman did not read any report on the air about that incident. Also, declassified records do not include Marcel's name anywhere in regards to the reporting of the Soviet's A-Bomb explosion. The copy of the White House statement also shows no evidence that Marcel had anything to do with it.

    --Marcel claims that he never spoke the reporters in General Ramey's office, even though he wanted to tell them about it. He also claims that when Ramey entered the room, he told Marcel "not to say anything," and that "he'd handle it", which is funny, because J. Bond Johnson, the reporter representing the Fort Worth Morning Star that day, reported that Marcel was the one doing the talking. Sources state that the article written by Johnson contains information which would have had to have come from Marcel, but I'm not exactly sure if that's true or not.

    --Marcel claims that the photos of him holding debris were not doctored, and were of the actual wreckage brought back from the site. He also claims that the real wreckage was taken away, and replaced with false materials, and more pictures were taken, but Marcel "was not in those photos". It's funny that this is said, because the photo of Marcel shows him holding a radar target. So, according to Jesse Marcel's own testimony, the photo in which he is holding the radar target is a real picture of the real wreckage from the site!

    So YES, Jesse Marcel has been called dishonest, and has contradicted many of his own statements. He has lied about his qualifications, about his education, and about the events surrounding the Roswell incident.

    I find it AMAZING that you believe Marcel without having even done a shred of research. But that's typical of the believer; they simply take the witnesses at their word, and don't question anything about them. In fact, when someone calls a witness into question, the believer is quick to jump down the skeptic's thraot! Why? Because the truth about the witness's true lack of credibility cannot come out, lest we learn that cases like Roswell aren't as spectacular as they thought.

    And we've just established the fact that Jesse Marcel also lies. So why believe him so easily?

    Given Marcel's tendancy to totally make shit up regarding himself, why do you trust his story?

    I really want you to re-read this comment now that I've shown you that about Marcel, and I want you to comment on it. I want to hear how you're going to talk your way out of this one, really, I do. "Proven to be honest and trustworthy"? First of all, you don't know a damned thing about the witnesses, obviously, and second of all, I just proved that the leading witness to the Roswell case, Jesse Marcel, was NOT honest OR trustworthy.

    How do you know it's bullshit?

    Yes, and I've shown you about a dozen different logical theories to your ONE illogical theory that aliens crashed on Earth. My theories are based on evidence, yours are based on speculation.

    JD
     
  12. Novacane Registered Senior Member

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    I speculate that a group of super advanced aliens from another solar system landed on Earth about 100 million years ago and were invited to dinner by a group of hungry T-Rexes........Only problem was, they (the aliens) were the main course.

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  13. btimsah Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    665
    They got their facts mixed up. Because some UFO recoveries are not revealed. Given the Kecksburg case, we know this is true.

    They hid a UFO. PERIOD.
     
  14. btimsah Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    665
    Futhermore, I can play your bullshit debunking games too;

    - The government lies to coverup secrets.

    - The government has lied to coverup secrets.

    - In Kecksburg the government has lied.

    - Th government lies to coverup secrets.

    So, your "skepticism" seems to only apply to Marcel - never the military, which reveals YOUR bias. Furhtermore, Marcel has people who corroberate his story.
     
  15. craterchains (Norval What will you know tomorrow? Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,044
    Btimsah

    Have you read Charles Fort's book, The Book Of The Damned ?

    I think you will find it most interesting.

    Norval
     
  16. Balerion Banned Banned

    Messages:
    8,596
    Wow. Norval replied to this thread, and yet btimsah is the one who sounds insane between them. Hmm. Well, thanks for the convo.

    JD
     
  17. btimsah Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    665
    No, never have. But I did find this at amazon:

    Book Description:

    A reprint of a work originally published in 1919, which challenges what its author sees as "dogmatic" science by cataloguing examples of phenomena seemingly unexplainable in scientific terms. Fort (1874-1923) asserts that scientists often argue according to their own beliefs rather than the rules of evidence and ignore, discredit, or suppress facts that conflict with their preferred theories. He wrote several books on his philosophy and is also noteworthy for having coined the word promoted early theories of the universe as an organism, and systematically studied reported sightings of UFOs.

    lol - yeah that works for me. I might go at lunch to see if Barnes and Noble has it... I doubt it.

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  18. btimsah Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    665
    Yeah, I'm insane.

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