Star Wars vs Star Trek

Canon Trek: "Star Trek has five complete series worth of canon along with ten motion pictures. Paramount has also stated that the Star Trek novels of Jeri Taylor are considered canon."

Canon Wars:"The movies are absolute canon, but the scripts and novelisations of the movies are also considered a lesser part of the canon. Also considered are the Star Wars radio plays broadcast on National Public Radio, but to a far lesser degree."

Neither technical manual is stated as canon. Matter of fact, Paramount has officially stated that the Trek technical manual is NOT canon, hence SW fans' focus on that 64MT torpedo power flies straight out the torpedo tube. Bye Bye Nasor, 3000 photon torpedos my a$$. Give me an armored, transphasic torpedo armed Voyager against a star destroyer any day (see a previous post).

I can't remember but who asked for this thread to turn canon anyways? It wasn't me, non-canon Trek has so many more fun weapons, lethal characters, super-ships, even if Wars fans still focus on the one 64MT misprint for pho-torp strength that gives them the single solitary advantage.

Banevv: Bug spray was meant to be a joke by the way

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Your source for this?

Transphasic torpedoes were specially designed to pass through Borg shields and defeat their adaptive defensive technologies. You are simply assuming that they would work as well against starwars ships because its convenient to your argument, which is silly and unconvincing – you have absolutely no evidence that transphasic torpedoes would have any special effect on starwars ships. A star destroyer is not a Borg cube.

But ok, lets try to evaluate the weapons technology of the Empire and Federation based on just what's seen in the movies and TV episodes - we can examine the issue using only "cannon" materials.

SW weapons and engineering technology allows the creation of the death star's super laser - a weapon that can blow up entire planets in a single blast. If Alderan was roughly the same size as the earth, the minimum energy necessary to blow it up would have been around 3.7*10^33 joules, or about forty-two thousand billion gigatons. Think about that or a moment - the Empire can build forty-two thousand billion gigaton energy cannons. That's vastly more firepower than anything the federation has ever displayed, and that fact by itself should make it clear to any thinking person that the Empire's weapon technology is far superior.

 

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Transphasic torpedos were designed to pass through ANY shield because they transit out of phase with normal space long enough to be unaffected by the physics therein...ie ANY...ANY...ANY normal space enemy shielding. Therefore when the torpedo returns to normal space and detonates under the backside of the star destroyer's bridge captain...what is he going to do? Use the Force to hold back the explosion that would rip apart the bridge tower?

You assume that because the Death Star has a planet-destroyer weapon means that every destroyer has anywhere near that capability. The Death Star is a very sluggish weapon requiring time to build energy and even MORE time to try to move out of the way of transphasic torpedos, quantum torpedos, phasers, Romulan (cloak capable race) and Klingon (cloak capable race) disruptors, antimatter mines, Borg cutting lasers, Borg adaptive nanite beams, Borg energy draining torpedos, transporter beams etc etc

Like I have said before (maybe somewhere around the double digit pages), you can build as much energy in one gun as you like...it does you no good if you can't get a sitting duck target. Yay...42K Billion GT. And nothing to aim at.

And ONE solitary, little, tiny, miniscule, one-man, 4-gun, unshielded shuttle took out the DS. Don't forget.

 

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Jeez I just realised LucasFilm defined levels of canon to help out you weakly Wars folks. Still I have yet to see any Wars characters even hope to overcome the transphasic torpedo.

At any rate G-Canon for Wars will override all other "canon" such as a technical manual. Therefore the power demonstrated by a Star Destroyer in the Wars movies will override the ridiculous figures Warsies like to quote from C, S class or non-canon sources.

Paramount only allows Paramount released movies and series as canon. The tech manuals are at best semi-canon. My earlier quote was rescinded by Paramount, Jeri Ryan's novels were "de-canonized".

(Oh look up both in Wikipedia)

 

Ah, now I see the problem. You are confusing transphasic torpedoes with the interphasic cloaking device that’s mentioned a few times in TV episodes. They are not the same thing, and it’s stupid for you to assume that they are just because they both have “phasic” in their names. Startrek tacks “phasic” onto all sorts of stupid technobabble words. There’s anaphasic this, metaphasic that, triphasic whatever etc. It’s one of the most common suffixes in the startrek dictionary.

If you want proof that transphasic torpedoes don’t pass through solid materials to detonate inside ships, notice the fact that in the Voyager episode where they were used against the Borg the torpedoes always detonated against the outside of the hull when they struck the Borg cubes.

The idea that they will penetrate “ANY…ANY…ANY” enemy shield is nothing but your own fantasy and is not supported by any evidence whatsoever. In fact, in the episode where they first appear it’s explicitly stated that it “appears to have been designed to defend against the Borg”.

I love how you say that only the information presented in the “cannon” material should be considered and then immediately start making wild assumptions – a weapon that was explicitly stated to have been designed to defeat the borg is suddenly able to penetrate ANY enemy shield and explode INSIDE enemy ships, even though it’s clearly shown not doing that in the episode where it appears. All this simply because it has “phasic” in the name.

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No - I said that the Empire's ability to build a forty-two thousand billion gigaton energy cannon is proof that their weapons technology is far, far superior to the Federations. Please be sure to respond to the arguments that I make, rather than arguments that you would like to imagine me making.

Obviously a star destroyer would not have weapons anywhere near as powerful as the deathstar's; but since the deathstar demonstrates that the Empire can build colossally powerful weapons that absolutely shame anything that the federation has been seen to produce, it makes sense that the weapons on their capitol ships would be proportionally more powerful.

 

Yes they detonated on the hull, because Tuvok set them to pass the shields. What would stop them from passing through the hull? And yes they were said to have been designed to attack the Borg...but that's because Admiral Janeway never met your Empire lackies. Against the Empire, they'd just set the torpedo to hold out of phase longer. And your trying to make me appear "stupid" by paralleling the suffix "phasic" is a poor and outdated debating strategy at appearing superior (which I notice you use regularly).

Just because Tuvok allowed them to detonate against the hull does not preclude the fact that a transphasic torpedo can move further than hull plates. Further to that, who cares if the transphasic torpedo can't go further than hull plates? With no shielding, at that level of power (that ONE torpedo destroys a Cube EACH side 3000m long) I'm pretty sure that a 2500m long Star Destroyer won't be able to withstand a spread of 10...(PS a 'spread' of torpedos is 10) even if I grant higher hull strength than a Cube (which I wouldn't).

I'm not one to confuse any phase, including the phase you're going thru that Wars is better. Don't worry young ensign, you too will see the light.

Building ONE big gun that takes as long as it took the Jedi to return from hiding, and is slow, unmaneuverable and defeatable by a one-man ship does NOT prove anything about weapons technology. Worse again that the DS was even vulnerable to that single shuttle it denounces everything Warsies like to say about war experience and tech.

What building that ONE gun proves is that they can collate existing weapons technology. It says nothing about either the power of the weapons OF the capitol ships OR superior tech overall. Even Kirk's Enterprise has demonstrated destructive power against a planet and that rickety Enterprise could literally run rings around the DS.

(I'm betting you that you're going to say I haven't proved that trans-torps can't pass through SD shields. That's your belief in magic rather than accepting the facts. YOU should try to prove that a SD CAN defend against a phase-shifting torpedo.) :bugeye:

 

Umm...maybe the fact that the hull is a solid object and there's no reason to believe they are capable of passing through solid objects. You have yet to provide any evidence whatsoever that they are able to do this. They are not shown to do it in the episode and nothing in the episode even hints that they can do this.

Lets be clear here: at no point does anyone in Voyager say anything like "these transphasic torpedoes can pass through any type of shield" or "these torpedoes can pass though solid objects to detonate inside ships." All that they say is that the torpedoes were designed to fight the Borg and are able to defeat the Borg's adaptive defenses. Everything beyond that is just your assumption, and you still have not provided one shed of evidence to back your silly assumptions up. Please either provide some evidence to back up your claims that transphasic torpedoes can pass through any shield and/or pass through solid material, or stop claiming it.

Before I worry about trying to prove that a SD's shields could stop an interphasic torpedo, you would have to provide some sort of reason to believe that an interphasic torpedo could actually threaten a SD's shields more than any other weapon. Your entire argument up to this point is basically "Interphasic torpedoes can penetrate borg shields, therefore then can penetrate any shields!" which is ridiculous and illogical.

You do realize, don't you, that making claims with no evidence and then shouting "but prove me wrong!" is the hallmark of crackpots everywhere? I know that there are mole people living under the earth's crust and using mind control to influence us! If you disagree, just try to prove that there aren't!

 

Hence why you keep prompting me to prove you wrong that SDs are your invulnerable god ships.


I'm working late today, I'll get back to you tomorrow on transphasic torpedos after I collect some cash

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Sorry, I didn't know. I've met Trekkies that thought that since they saw the Millenium Falcon in First Contact that it somehow proves that SW is weak. That's why I take most thing Trekkies say in a debate as serious.

 

first off,there have been TWO weapons in trek that can destroy a planet in one shot.

the xindi super weapon,and the 8472 combined bio ship

SW does NOT have the monopoly on planetary destruction,in fact,we have SEEN more planets and planitoids destroyed in trek then in SW.


second,in ALL 6 movies NO weapon OR ship explosion is ever shown to expell more then MT range energy[except the DS]


watch insurection again and tell me how you plan on defeating subspace weaponry,or watch DS9 and tell me how you plan on getting around self replicating cloaked minefields,or how you plan on stopping subspace transporters from beaming all the crew into space from lightyears away ,or how you plan on stopping a solar system wide borg nanite cloud from a multikenetic nuetronic mine.

heres a tip for all you warsies,the feds are only 3% of the galaxy,and most other races dont play fair like the feds.youll have to contend with dozens of near omnipotent beings along with extradimensional beings,and a myriad of technology that pales wars tech in comparison.

maybe we could paint all the trek ships to look like the broad side of a barn?[count the hits and misses of trek vs wars,your batting around.002 while trek is batting around.800]

 

Actually there what is called story canon and technical canon. If you check the StarTrek.com site and see what they have to say about technical manuals then you will see that three of them are considered official. It is a classic case of wannable Trekkies taking just the part of the statement that benefits them and ignoring the stuff that works against them.

64 megatons is standard for a fully charged Photon Torpedo it is the bench mark of Star Trek weaponry, some stuff is more powerful and other stuff like Phasers are far weaker.

I pray that one day you wannabe Trekkies realize that you are doing great disservice to real Trekkies everywhere.

 

Only two? Wow that's much less than SW's arsenal of super weapons. We have the Death Star, Death Star II, Suncrusher, Centerpoint Station, Galaxy Gun,Darksaber. And there are other super weapons that are not as powerfl or are not considered super weapons at all. Like the Star Forge, which has the power to create whole fleets with minimal time and resources.

 

How can you expect to have a discussion when you can't even keep track of what other people say? I never told you to "prove me wrong." I simply asked you to provide some evidence to back up your claims about transphasic torpedoes. You made the claim that transphasic torpedoes can go through ANY shield and phase through solid matter to detonate inside ships, so now you had better give some cannon evidence to back it up.

 

The Startrek Technical Manuals (which, despite what desperate trekies would like you to believe, is an official publication that was approved by Paramount) says that photon torpedoes are 64 megatons. This low yield for photon torpedoes is backed up by the ST:TNG episode "Pegasus" in which Riker says that it would take the entire photon torpedo load of the Enterprise to destroy a single hollow asteroid that's only a few km across.

The Starwars Incredible Cross-sections technical manual (again, an official publication that was approved by Lucas Arts) says that heavy turbolasers hit with 200 GT. But is that high firepower value believable? Lets see:

We know that the deathstar has a weapon that hit with a minimum of 3.7*10^33 joules, or about forty-two thousand billion gigatons. So it's definitely easily within the Empire's technical abilities to make a 200 GT cannon - in fact, it's been demonstrated that they can build cannons billions of times more powerful than that. But of course a star destroyer is much smaller than the deathstar. The deathstar was a sphere with a diameter of 160 km, giving it an internal volume of 2150000 cubic kilometers. A star destroyer is a little over 1 km long, with an internal volume of perhaps 0.04 cubic km. If we scale the firepower of the deathstar down to the volume of a star destroyer, you end up with a firepower of 10^28 joules. But then the death star was basically a giant cannon, so maybe we should assume that a star destroyer only has 0.01% of the death star's firepower per unit volume. That knocks the star destroyer's firepower down to only 10^24 joules...which is still over two hundred thousand gigatons. In fact if a star destroyer's turbolasers are, as Lucas Arts claims, 200 GT weapons, than a star destroyer only has something on the order of 0.000000001% of the firepower per unit volume of the deathstar.

All right, lets review. We have an official ST publication stating that a photon torpedo is 64 megatons, and that number is backed up by Riker's statements in a ST:TNG episode. We also have an official SW publication stating that stardestroyer turbolasers are 200 GT, and the death star's firepower of forty-two thousand billion gigatons shows that this is easily within the technical abilities of the empire - in fact, it's a surprisingly low firepower density compared to the deathstar.

 

Folks, I looked it up, both the Star Trek site and Wikipedia, Paramount's official statement disavows almost any book as canon. 'Official' is not equal to 'canon'. Technical manuals are considered semi-canon at best, and any onscreen evidence that refutes any manual is considered superior. A 64MT photon torpedo would be useless in the many untilizations by Enterprise, Enterprise-D, Voyager, DS9 against other titanium alloy/neutronium/whatever heavy metal ships, Earth-and-greater-massed planets and armored stations (Cardassian, Fed, Klingon, Romulan, all at various events stated to be some level of heavy resistant metal alloy like any in Wars).

ST.COM FAQ: Trek Canon
Wiki Trek Canon


However, LucasFilm allows multiple levels of canon (Holocron), so any outrageous measurements said by George Lucas, or perhaps a "lower level" non-movie canon (like tech manuals) can be used in such comparisons as long as the movies have nothing that overrides the lower level. (The movies of course can disprove 200GT level laser cannons, but I won't go into that old hat, i think that argument was hashed and rehashed on pages 12, 15, 19, 77-82, 100, 108-111 and 121)

Wiki Wars Canon

If LucasFilm helps out its uber-fans like that I think I'll leave this particular discussion alone.

OH and Nasor is technically correct. While the transphasic torpedos are canon, their explanation is NOT, I was mistaken in thinking that Adm. Janeway gave an explanation. My posted explanation is correct in a trek game which is outside of the series and 10 movies. Unfortunately.

Mars, there are many planetary destructive weapons in trek including standard shipmounted phaser banks. They do not blow up a planet in one shot, but they can burn everything to ash given time. Plus the auto-terraforming Genesis technology (Trek II) and mentioned in TNG will wipe out any planet surface and whatever's on it (killing everyone) and catalyze a new planetary eco-system.... Genesis application as a 'weapon' (let's say against Naboo) is obvious.

However, given the LucasFilm advantage of wider canon, I'll bow out of this now, I'm going to continue enjoying BOTH without fighting on which is better. Later gators.

Oh, one thing Wars beats Trek in...Young Darth Vader-b4 the black helmet (Christiansen) is hotter than Wesley Crusher (Wheaton)

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Clearly Star Wars would HAVE to win. Star Trek is just plain gay; literally. Who wears tightly fitted jumpsuits? Not only that, but "phaser", whaterver that is, would be easily defeated by a simple Jedi Padawan. And you also have to take into mind the time difference. Star Wars takes place a LONG TIME AGO, and Star Trek is the fture here, so Star Wars Tech. would easily beat anything Trekians threw at em.

 

And yet, Riker stated that it would take the entire load of the Enterprise's photon torpedoes to destroy a single hollow asteroid that was only a few km across - so there's really no way you can argue that the yield of a photon torpedo is more than a few tens of megatons, unless you want to argue that the asteroid was made of some sort of unknown, super-tough material.

 

It's sad I never watched Star Trek or Star Wars

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I like Spaceballs thoughs. I've seen bits and peices of Star Wars to get the movie though.

 

You've never watched Star Wars? Go rent/buy/borrow all of the movies from somewhere and watch them all. The first two will probably give you the wrong impression. If you even think that the first two are ok, then you'll love the rest of the movies.

 

I think stargate SG-1 and Atlantis deals with alot of experimental science of today unlike the scifi fantasy of starwars!!. Don't get me wrong,.starwars is great its just that the aliens are a bit little overdressed and the whole idea of darth born without a daddy destined to aquire great power sounds a bit like jesus of the bible!!! However In stargate most of their wormhole technology looks pretty much based on current scientific research . Even the evil alien races are similar to that described by ancients civilizations like the dogon's and sumerians on earth..not to mention UFO abduction cases!!!
Star trek on the other hand,..The next generation is my favourite coz its got the whole alien wardrobe thing and technology balanced so it really doesn't look like a messy circus show like farscape!!,..