Which god? Spinoza's god, perhaps? Or, your god? "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropomorphic concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near to those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem — the most important of all human problems." “I cannot accept any concept of God based on the fear of life or the fear of death or blind faith. I cannot prove to you that there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him I would be a liar.” "As to what one could believe in, the answer was simple enough. I believe in the brotherhood of man and the uniqueness of the individual." Einsteins Religion "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive With our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible Universe, forms my idea of God. I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms." — Quoted in the New York Times obituary April 19, 1955 "The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that there is." - Speech by Albert Einstein to the German League of Human Rights, Berlin. “It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.” - Albert Einstein in 'Albert Einstein: The Human Side' Religion is a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destinies. With that we can add belief in an afterlife, worshipping and fearing a god. We can question as to whether or not these criteria are met in the quotes above. Is there anywhere written Einstein claims to have had a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that controls human destinies? Other than his reference to a "illimitable superior spirit" revealed when one is able to perceive "With our frail and feeble minds", there is no mention of anything commonly believed by theists in regards to supernatural powers or human control. He refers that phrase to the observable details, that which can be perceived, not which can be imagined. He uses the phrase "forms my idea of God" but then starts out by stating that this idea consists as a "humble admiration". Do theists see their gods as mere humble admirations? Is there anywhere written Einstein claims to believe in an afterlife; a heaven or hell? Does he claim to live his life accordingly so as to secure himself a place in heaven and avoid those behaviours that might send him to hell? No, in fact he goes on to say that if there was anything in him that might be considered religious, it is the "unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." I see no evidence whatsoever to suggest Einstein was even remotely religious.
If there is a GOD... then there is only one GOD.. and he is the GOD of all men.. of all man kind.. human kind. And it is only man who is confussed, not GOD, logically. This one GOD would also be the GOD of all other life in the universe. This one GOD would, then, logically, be the source of energy in creation itself. Therefore.. if there is an inherent design... nature.. to the universe.. then it is possible that GOD, could from a distance in heaven, apply energy to cause creation, and that the nature of the development was pre-destined by the very design of the fabic of space and matter. So GOD, would have no need to do extra work to form earths and humans... he could sit back, and wait... and watch them form... form.. thrive... and eventually die... ONE AFTER ANOTHER.. ALL ACROSS SPACE. It is the 'die' part which is the important issue. It is something we can aviod. -MT
And there we have it, Einstein saying there is no God, then what's a theist to do? And to think, all this time I believed. I guess the debate is over. Okay, enough for the sarcasm. Einstein was a somewhat brilliant man but I disagree with him if he did believe that we are born from nothing. That there is no cause to the effect. That creation wasn't created. That we are intelligent but are products of nothing more intelligent than us or that it is nothing of no intelligence that didn't create us. That we're mere products of nothing. Nothing out of something, like magic, and no scientific explanation for what caused us. And if Einstein did fall in that trap of saying something caused us, he would have to admit the cause would be our God. A God is a creator, a birther, an inducer, a giver of life. He is one of my heros but even an intelligent man doesn't think logically all the time and has some emotion to influence his opinion.
I found some quotes from god, regarding his belief in Einstein. I am convinced that He (Einstein) does not play dice. I want to know Einstein's thoughts; the rest are details. Before Einstein we are all equally wise, and equally foolish. Reality is merely an illusion, albert is a very persistent one. Science with religion is stupid, religion without science is stupid. Einstein may be subtle, but He isn't plain mean. The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing - God
Congratulations (Q) on the inspired idea of starting a specific "Einstein" thread! Pavlosmarcos quotes from God about Einstein are priceless! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Definitions: WordNet defines Religious as: ...and Theism as: ...and Spiritual as: Reasoning: I hope we can agree that: a) Einstein did NOT believe in a personal God. b) Einstein did NOT believe in life after death. c) Einstein did NOT believe in the doctrines of any church or religious sect. d) Einstein DID believe in God as the "presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible Universe". Thus (a) probably rules him out as a "theist" and (c) probably excludes him from meanings #1 & #2 of "religious". However in (d) he does fit meaning #3 of religious. Religious:"having or showing belief in and reverence for a deity" He also fits the definitions (2) and (4) of "spiritual". Conclusion: So, can we agree: Einstein was NOT a theist, but WAS religious and WAS spiritual. (Phew! Can we talk about something else now?) :bugeye:
4? Einstein stated he did not believe either in a soul or spirit. And I doubt very much he believed in the supernatural. I can't find the quote that I read in which he stated this, but this does a good job of disproving your assertion. "The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion. Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seems to me to be empty and devoid of meaning." I agree Using your broad definition of religion, that makes me religious too. Whoda thought it? Philisophical thoughts hardly quantify being 'spiritual'. He was very consisten with his thoughts on these matters, and if one understands the way in which he uses the words 'religion' and 'God', it is clear he is Agnostic.
Nonsense, that is a lie, he claimed no such thing, that is entirely your fantasy. Again, that is your fantasy. He claimed no such thing. No, you fantasized and really, really want to believe in your fantasy. You've shown nothing else.
Hmmm.. OK, for the sake of a quiet life I concede that one Kenny. My interpretation of "spirit" is as in his quote: "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive With our frail and feeble minds." Not my definitions... those provided by WordNet (via Answers.com). You might surprise yourself as to what you are capable of being! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! You have seen my reasoning. We are not going to agree on this one! Does that really matter? Having said that: I don't think Einstein accurately fits any of those definitions. He was clear he believed in a God who he admired as the rationality and beauty behind the universe ((d) in my last post). However, it's up to you what you want to call him! You wouldn't get far in an intellectual debate Q. It requires logic and cleverly constructed rational arguments. Unfounded accusations of lying are usually taken as a sign of sour grapes! In fact you yourself quoted him as saying: What would you call that if it's not "having or showing belief in and reverence for a deity"? In fact, I don't really care what you think Q. I'm convinced, you may not be - so what?! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I'm not sure why people care that much what Einstein believed or didn't. It seems, in the minds of some people, that Einstein epitomizes science, hence rational thought, therefore he must have been closer to the truth on any subject. Which is strange, considering Einstein made two famous blunders in the very field in which he had the most expertise. (namely, the cosmological constant and his diatribes with quantum mechanics) In the particular case of God or religion, Einstein is often (mis-)quoted by theists as evidence that scientists, even smart ones, can definitely believe in God. I think it's time this misconception is cleared - Einstein did not believe in God at all, he simply did not understand what the word "God" means. Or "religion", for that matter. Take what is probably the most famous quote on the subject: "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind". Stated as it is, the sentence is meaningless. Which religion? Would science be not lame if scientists embraced Wiccan beliefs? Scientology, perhaps? Just as Einstein did not understand what the word "God" means (and it definitely doesn't mean anything like "the order of the universe as understood by science"), he did not understand what "religion" means, which was only natural since he didn't practice any. The trouble with his famous phrase is that it only makes sense to people who profess a religion, and those are inevitably lead to interpret Einstein's statement as meaning something like "science without Christianity is lame..." or "science without Judaism is lame...". I seriously doubt Einstein would agree with such an interpretation, in which case we cannot help but interpret his utterance as completely devoid of any practical meaning. This whole Einstein and religion thing is silliness. First, because religion doesn't need Einstein's or anybody else's approval, it should stand or fall on its own merits. Second, because Einstein may have been a brilliant physicist, but that doesn't make his opinions on any other subject more valuable than the opinions of anybody else.
forget einstein, newton believed in god and the bible. he even thought the earth was only 6000 years old.
So, where is your constructed rational argument? You're convinced of a great many things that have no basis in reality, so what?
There's one just below that line... Do you need help with reading Q? Well, I'll only be convinced otherwise by good arguments... you could experiment with using some! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Sorry DD, I see no argument whatsoever. You tossed in some more definitions of religion and then asserted Einstein fit those definitions. That's all I see. So, I ask again, where are your arguments? Since it is apparent you didn't read my opening post, then you didn't read my arguments. I put forth quotes, even some in which theists appear to be under the impression they are admittances to beliefs, which they are not as anyone can plainly see. I made comparisons to theists claims of belief in supernatural powers that control human destinies, nowhere did Einstein make such claims. He also made no claims to an afterlife, divine moralities or any other such claims commonly addressed by theists. You simply have no case and no argument, which is exactly what you provided.
Why would that matter to you what he believed? No one can approach God through knowledge only. That's why so many other things arise. He had a unbounded admiration for the structure of the world, but didn't stretch this to include God that had made all those wonderful things. Since he say "unbounded admiration" it almost sounds like the universe or the structure of it was like a god for him. Maybe he just didn't aknowledge this and realise that it must be God that you should praise. I guess even IQ>200 can make mistakes...perhaps Einstein needed something to build on, or his intelligence would make no matter. I think so. I really appreciate the sense of understanding that he had about the universe and the structure of it, but I guess he couldn't stretch his mind to understand God. He could have been afraid of the scientists reactions if said he believed in God.
Oh dear, I sense you are stung Q. This is the argument I put forward.... If you really need more explanation.... 1) "God" = a deity 2) Having a "deeply emotional conviction" = showing belief in 3) Writing of a "superior reasoning power which is revealed in the incomprehensible Universe" = a display of reverence for So, in conclusion, put together the words Einstein uses in the above quote (which you quoted) and you can demonstrate that he "had or showed belief in and reverence for a deity". QED I got the above quote from your opening post, and indeed complimented you on it in my first post (see above) so I must have read it! (How's that for a solid rational argument). My irritation is not with your first post, (though it would have been better if you hadn't used your own definition of "religion"). It is, (following my carefully reasoned argument quoting dictionary definitions), with your subsequent one. I quote your post: Now, count the number of logical reasons (e.g. because...), arguments (if x was y etc.), alternative citations (he stated in...), quotations ("I am therefore I think....") etc. as to why you disagree. I make it - yes - you guessed it - <drum roll> - none: zilch: nietz: zero. Nil points. Bugger all. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! You give no rationalisation as to WHY you think it is my fantasy or WHY you conclude I have lied. It just conveys to me you have no arguments left and are pissed off having lost the argument. I just think Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! bad loser! See my point? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
All you've managed is to focus on a single quote that does not in any way admit to a belief in a god, you made that up in your mind because you really want to believe it. Your simply confused, so I'll try to explain it to you. He never said the "deeply emotional conviction" was his conviction, only that the conviction existed - he was probably referring to theists convictions. He went on to say that the conviction is revealed in an incomprehensible universe and that this is what forms his idea of a god. In other words, the convictions of theists forms an idea of a god, which he accepts. Guess what? Atheists accept that too. Do you understand now? And to top if off, you conveniently ignored all the other quotes in which he denies believing in a god.
The point is not if Einstein believed in gods or not, which he didn't. The point is dispelling yet another ridiculous myth created by theists.
