god!! all the lines in Episode 1 sucked especially Anikans "This is Tense!" "Now this is Podracing!" "Are you an angel?"
Cris, I think the point is that those without sins are the only ones who can PUNISH those who have sinned. Those who have sinned are free to judge, they just should forgive the human weakness they have experienced themselves. Otherwise no one can judge other peoples actions and without critique and contemplation of others actions how can we learn from society's mistakes?
Scilosopher, No that is incorrect. If you believe you have the right to punish then you will have also judged. You cannot distinguish between punishment and judgment; one is dependent on the other. The essential issue here, and that intended in the biblical sense is one of hypocrisy. No again I believe that is incorrect. No man has the right to judge another. All one can do is attempt to understand others. Judgment is not needed for learning. We learn through understanding and not judging. Judging implies that we are somehow superior when in fact we are usually just as weak as everyone else. In the bible story Jesus does not judge neither does he forgive. He neither condones nor condemns. He simply suggests that the offender does not commit the offense again. IOW he demonstrates understanding. In modern day law a Judge does not judge others but interprets the law that is independent of any individual, and which can be considered superior to everyone. Cris
Cris: Then morality and justice fail, because what is the administration of justice but judging? Are we to live in some moral void where murder is (morally) just the same as suicide, where rape is just the same as consensual sex, where robbing a bank is just the same as earning your money? I prefer Ayn Rand's "Judge, and prepare to be judged"
Cris, Wow, someone else quoted me on the Quotes thread! And I thought I never said anything worth repeating ... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I think you can distinguish between judgement and punishment. You certainly can judge w/o punishing. You can also punish someone out of jealousy or some other motivation than justice. I also don't think you have to consider yourself superior to judge. Maybe equal intellectually, but not necessarily superior. As for the right to judge? I don't think the concept of rights makes so much sense. You can do what you can do and under some kind of agreement each party is assigned rights. I know of no agreement that limits my right to judge others. Your interpretation sounds generally reasonable to me, but it certainly isn't mine. If Jesus suggests someone not do something again he is certainly making a judgement if you ask me. He is suggesting a better way of doing things. Xev, I agree we shouldn't ever depend on others to protect us and think for us (though pragmatically we need to as kids). We probably shouldn't debate this on a quotes thread though.
Xev, You are confusing judgment by individuals as opposed to judgment through law. Laws are defined by either consensus of a group or by a majority, with the implication that everyone is prepared to follow these laws. Judgment then comes down to interpretation of the law making it unnecessary for any individual to make a judgment. At least this is how it should work in a democracy. Most things of a serious morality issue are also embedded in modern law, e.g. murder, rape, theft, etc. In a democracy I want to look to the majority view of people who have demonstrated wisdom to create good laws. Laws and morality should be defined to be of benefit to the group or the species. I am not interested in judging others but I would be interested in achieving consensus for my ideas that would be of benefit to many, and in such a way that behavior is changed for the better. Police for example do not (should not) judge they merely enforce the law. Lawyers do not judge, they merely interpret the law. Judges do not judge they merely interpret the law. Executioners do not judge they are merely following the judgment of the law. I don’t see a big problem with that scheme. In religion it is the deity who allegedly defines the laws, otherwise the principles are the same as I have described above. Cris PS. We should take this discussion elsewhere.
Scilosopher, No. In every case you will have made a judgment before you administer punishment. Superficially you might perceive you can judge without punishing. But what is the implication of your judgment? Will you then not treat that individual differently because of your judgment, and in effect you will be administering a self proclaimed punishment. No I think not. To judge means you have detected a behavior that is somehow in error and unworthy based on your personal criteria. The implication is that you would not perform that error and you are therefore judging the offender is inferior to you for not being able to exercise restraint. Contrast that with sympathetic understanding for the individual because you have made the error in the past. And I guess you are partially correct, although in the USA the constitution states that all men are equal. But the perceived freedom to judge others leads to the inevitable extensive racial, sexual, and religious, discriminations, and general lack of tolerance. And all because people feel their judgment criteria is somehow superior to others. As soon as you judge others then you run the danger of practicing unfair discrimination. Yes but the point here is that he was allegedly perfect and so had the right to make a judgment, but he chose neither judge nor punish but to teach through understanding. What we need is a universal standard, perhaps. If you go your own way then you are in real danger of generating conflict. Hitler, judged that his race was superior to others. The others disagreed and we had WWII. Cris PS. Yes we are in the wrong forum.
"I´ve seen things you people wouldn´t believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain. Time to die. -- Roy Blade Runner Rescourses exist to be consumed and consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright? None I say! Let us take what is ours, chew and eat our fill. -- CEO Nwabudike Morgan "The Ethics of Greed" To map the very stuff of life; to look into the genetic mirror and watch a million generations march past. That, friends, is both our curse and our proudest achievement. For it is in reaching to our beginnings that we begin to learn who we truly are. -- Academician Prokhor Zakharov "Adress to the Faculty"
"The Force is everywhere around you. Feel it and you will be free." "The Jedi don't attack with the Force, he defends himself with It." Yoda PS: I don't remember the exact quotes... sorry... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! PS2: "Force"=Love (in my Philosophy) Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Love, Nelson
"I've looked through his eyes, I've listened through his ears, and I'm telling you now he is the one." -Orson Scott Card, Enders Game.
"Concentrated power is silence. Diffused power is noise... When you read, the place of silence in mind, you have reached the place of power, the place where all is one." Baird Spalding "Man cannot discover new oceans until he has courage to lose sight of the shore." Unknown Love, Nelson
So work, not for joy but towards it; not for reward, but from the inner need to help; not for gratitude, but from the urge that comes from having seen the vision and realisation of the part you have to play in bringing that vision down to earth. Alice A. Bailey
"The bigger boys stopped laughing and joking then. The third game went in total silence. Ender won it quickly and efficiently." Orson Scott Card
"Yet mark his perfect self-contentment, and hence learn his lesson, that to be self-contented is to be vile and ignorant, and that to aspire is better than to be blindly and impotently happy." -- Edwin A. Abbott, Flatland
"We know what we are, but know not what we may be." Shakespeare "Everyone should carefully observe which way his Heart draws him, and then choose that way with all his strength." Hasidic Saying
