Star Wars vs Star Trek

You mean "the Empire".

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No I said what I meant since this a joint Empire Remnant and New Republic task force I imagine the races freed from the opressive communist state of the Federation would be given a choice of which side to belong to. Betazeds are too chaotic for the Empire. Vulcan's I can see choosing either way however.

 

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If the time frame is what was originally set up (all possible forces of all times, though no duplicated single entities) I must say that Thrawn would be the best choice to lead, simply because he was the best. Everything else sounds fine, except Skywalker-he wasn't that good of a pilot, and he needs to be operating as a Jedi anyway.

 

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Such gravitational sensors as are usually deployed on ships don't have the fine discrimination necessary to resolve something as small as, say, an SSD with an accompanying fleet of ISDs.

Or, for that matter, a nearby Death Star, as demonstrated in the movies.

 

Aye, Wedge Antilles was a lot better, and he wasn't a jedi.

 

Actually you forget that Luke really was that good. Probably the third best living pilot in the Galaxy without the force, with it he completely unbeatable in the cockpit. How do you mess with someone who can sense what you are gonna do before you ever think of doing.

Oh, I would have Thrawn as Strategic planner, but Ackbar and Palleon are better at taking a plan and making a winning battle. I mean face it at Endor Ackbar was outnumbered and outgunned, but practically had the battle won before the Death Star was destroyed. That is a leader.

 

Odd when it can pick up 50 meter diameter asteroids. The Millenium Falcons sensors picked up the Death Star, it's gravity just matched a small moon.

 

why do you think cloaks dont cloak gravity in ST?

 

It didn't pick up the Death Star by gravitational signal; it picked it up visually. "Hey, what's that small moon doing there?" "Wait a gosh-darn minute, that's not a small moon after all. HALP!"

And they noticed it only substantially after coming out of hyperspace. The whole "mass shadow" thing pretty clearly only applies to pretty strong fields - and even then, Han didn't notice Alderaan wasn't there until after they came out of hyperspace 1 planetary diameter from where it should have been.

Picking up cloaked ships by gravity sensors? That requires a sensitivity of sensors not seen in SW outside of the EU, and pretty rarely even then.

The EU, in fact, sets forth the standard that cloaked ships the size of a SSD are impossible to detect using standard SW sensor suites gravitationally; only specialized CGTs can, which - even decades later - were being rarely deployed on capital ships.

And cloaked ships that can maneuver and watch you while they do it? Really freaky as far as any SW tactician is concerned. That's the sort of thing that monkey-wrenches Thrawn's schemes when it comes up by surprise.

 

Actually I think they do but the artificial gravity wells of the Interdicotrs would make the cloaked ships appear as blank spots. Then they are SOL. Meanwhile the gravity will muck up ST sensors.

 

FIrst of all SW cloaking devices are to ST cloaking devices what ST cloaking devices are to the Stealth Bomber. It's a whole new level. The cloak is perfect has no visual distortions. You can even fire out from it without revealing if you are a fighter or SSD. If you have the Old Republic ones you are not blinded and can even fire while cloaked. The new ones are not as useful but imagine a Jedi using one, able to sense where the enemy is the whole time. ST cloaking devices are a joke, massive distortions, energy emissions, and ridiculous vulnerbitlity. No better than the sensors which are confused by gravity distortions and natural electromagnetic fields


As for the Millenium Falcon, yes he spotted it visuall and even checked some readings. Who excpects a modified frieghter to carry military grade sensors. Even if they did it wouldn't be the sophisticated system you would see in ISDs. To even think you are talking the same sensor systems is idiocy.

 

We've had countless cloaks that you can "fire out of without revealing yourself."

That doesn't work too well, as you can always track back. Zero emissions? Not really any more than ST cloaks. Heat has to go somewhere.

And the sensitive graviton pickup of ST sensors should tell you something about gravitational sensors being able to pick up ST cloaks... or not, as the case proves to be.

SW cloaks operate on exactly one thing: Ambient EM emissions. Light, in other words. It's quite possible (even likely) that active subspatial scans, tachyon beams, etc etc, will pick up cloaked SW ships. The SW cloak is, in fact, a relatively simple first-generation system, used in by one major power against another for the first time well after ROTJ in the EU.

While likely to be as useful as various ST cloaks are on first encounter, they're unlikely to be very significant, and the severe limitations of SW cloaks seen in the "modern" EU era make them not particularly useful.

The Falcon, incidentally, was undetectable to those same "military grade" sensors when out of sight.

There's basically no reason to assume that SW sensors can pick up even the first generation cloaks seen in TOS with the slight "visual distortion" of background light.

As far as the artificial gravity wells of the Interdictors doing anything... they'd just make the ships more visible... while failing to prevent warp drives from engaging. Another very nasty surprise for a SW fleet.

 

Two and both times the ships were destroyed

Yes you can track back but the object could have stayed still or be moving .5 c. It could have fired and then jumped to Hyperspace. They are truly zero emissions and actually actively make it look like sensors scan right through the ship.

Gravity distortions do not help ST sensors, but blind them completely. Same with natural magnetics. Twice ships have hid in the poles of a plabnet and been undetectable to a GCS.

This is what happens when you don't read the books more closely. The Hybridium cloaking device was introduced mid main trilogy. It was an undesirable version of the original Stygium crystal devices that were used back before the Sith Empires. The crystals eventually ran out and the replacement was flawed in exactly one way, it blinded all but the most sophisticated gravity sensors, both ways.

Captain Han Solo's ship evaded detection by first using a blind spot, then attaching to hull and completely powering down. Not to mention the Millenium Flacon had a very sophisticate sensopr mask.

Actually if we were talking just Fighters, Freighters and Corvette's yes I would agree, but we are talking Star Destroyers, SSD's and a Sovereign. Plus the sheer number of ships.

My fleet is not coming in cloaked this is a show of force, less than a percent of the military might coming in and just plowing through even the strongest Federations ships like they were tissue paper. As for the Artificial gravity the nast surprise is not the Federation becuase it will make warp maneuver tricky. One fluctuation in the gravity and the nacelles could rip right off as you try to do warp acrobatics.

 

So?

Actually, it couldn't be. A truly zero-emissions SW craft can't use its ion engines to accelerate (gas leaving the cloak can be tracked by ST sensors), and the current velocity is apparent from the weapons fire.

Twice ships have tried to hide in the poles, and been detected, actually.

Try looking at the actual episodes. It only takes a couple presses of a button to compensate for any notable strength of magnetic field.

Actually, I'm very familiar with the introduction of both kinds of cloaking devices.

The explanation you've cited is what's known as a retcon to try and reconcile contradictory information about cloaks.

While powered down?

No, it didn't. It just powered down. SW sensors can't pick up a powered down ship except visually.

Which improves your sensing how? Not at all.

Sure, once you've been attacked a couple times, you'll be trying to find the elusive visual distortions and occasional thermal leaks associated with first-generation cloaks.

Actually, the only "plowing through like tissue paper" will be torpedos and phasers shredding poorly armored Wars hulls.

As far as gravity fluctuation and warp drives... I don't know if you've noticed, but warp engines work pretty well around gravitational shear, such as found near a black hole. The only thing the artificial gravity wells will do is keep SW ships from engaging hyperdrive; warp drive is much better adapted to high gravity.

 

This shows a uniqueness in cloaks you can fire through. Every other ship we have seen has had to unclaok and wait a second or three to fire. So it is shown canon that cloaking devices are merely for sneaking around.

Actually it is described as zero emission. Since that is what is stated that is what counts, it doesn't mattter if it defies science at all.

Actually, only two of three ships were detected like that and oddly they were smaller than the ship that succeeded. Commander Riker managed to hide a ful size warship in the magnetic pole of a planet and the ship was just barely patched together. The Eneterprise didn't know it was there until fired upon.

It doesn't matter since it is canon, quit bringing outside reasoning to this. This is a clearly inside debate. Ignore the writers faux pas and concentrate on what is said, shown, and done.

Well, since most sensor masks are nonpowered and merely absorb incoming sensor sweeps, meaning they are much like today blackball armor. As for the not detecting ship unless they are powered, how do they scan moons, asteroids, derelict ships?

Hey, multiple sensor platforms helps, plus unlike most ST ships weapons are not completely computertized there is a sensor officer and gunner for each weapon as well as independant power supply. Thousands of eyes watching not just a few pairs.

I love how sites with poor math and poor understanding of how things are done are quoted as references. FIrst the site gets the scale of the rock all wrong. Second it's speed does not take inot account that Star Destroyer doing 2 km per second. It fails to relaize that if the armor was really that week the rock would have plowed through and not exploded on the surface. EU also states that particular Star Destroyer wasn't pulled from duty until after the battle with the space slug.

As for poorly armored we know how powerful the weapons are and ISD are capable of surviving dozens of hits without their shields before they are destroyed.

By the way for those wondering the absolute minimum it would take for the vaporized a few of the EU asteroids of 100+ meters in diameter is 2,964,691,466,667,540 joules or 2,371,75317,30 tons of TNT or roughly 2.37 gigatons. Even with the claim of 1.5 kilograms of Anitmater and the resultat 64 megatons of Photon Torpedo claims by some rabid trekkers we have one Turbolaser being equal to 37 photon torpedoes. Given the numbers provided by Paramount the same blast is also worth 285,066,487.2 shots from a Type X phaser the type carried by the Sovereign. If you take my very generous 1000% percent efficency that is still 28,506,648.72 full power phaser shots. Still think you can compete.

It works wellk around a constant shear, but what about one that can flicker randomly, or suddenly turn on mid-warp. I doubt you'll be so good then. And beside I won't need to retreat, I have power, numbers, and technology on my side. Not to mention tactical genius and strategic brilliance.

 

Actually, most are revealed at the exact moment of firing, and can recloak within 1-3 seconds.

The whole "firing while still cloaked" deal is overrated, really.

Actually, it does.

And here's the thing; we already know that their "zero emission" description doesn't include gravity. It's not all inclusive, and it probably doesn't include thruster exhaust either. You emit (even cold) gas to move yourself around while a ST ship is there, you will be detected consequently; in order to move with ion thrusters, you need to emit something.

Are you talking about the wargame in which Riker cheated by messing with the Enterprise's sensor data?

Or the tactic in general, credited to Riker in "Peak Performance," and described fully, involves shutting down all systems and hiding in the pole... which, as we've seen, doesn't work too well in Trek, although just shutting down all systems is sufficient to confuse SW sensors.

I.e., that the kind you can see through is not available in the Imperial and later eras.

Not very well.

Which would help you... against first generation cloaks, after the first attack run. But not, of course, against later-generation cloaks, which don't display the visual bobbles.

The scaling for the relative speed of rock-that-destroyed-bridge-tower and ISD are seen here. Note that it is irrelevant (and impossible to tell from the camera) how much of the relative motion is due to the ISD and how much the asteroid. The scalings for the other asteroid seem to be identical to those found on Stardestroyer.net... and the formulas used calculate precisely what strength of armor is needed to deflect the asteroid seen.

Actually, no. One or two hits in the right place, and they blow to kingdom come.

Which, considering these are less powerful weapons than phasers and photon torpedos, isn't too impressive.

You're now talking completely off the wall and out of your ass. "EU asteroids" that are completely vaporized, of any scale? One, the movies override that. Two, you're not even citing a source.

Those figures - which come out of the non-canon TM - are known to be too low.

And those numbers? Also non-canon, and also too low.

Actually, given the scale of Interdictor mass shadows (~1 m/s/s) and the scale of gravitational fields that ST ships regularly go to warp in (~300 m/s/s), it's safe to say the entire thing is completely ignorable.

 

Actually no I think you will find it is 1 to 3 seconds.

No, it doesn't otherwise we would have to apply science to phasers and then, well your toast.

Actually, you'd be surprised how much maneuvering is done by gravity repulsor manipulation. Selectively making yourself have the opposite reaction to local gravity. You can rely on momentum for the rest. As for the crystal grav traps they work by detecting minute fluctuations in gravity and gravity patterns. Basically like using dust to find an invisible object.

The cheat by Riker was by making a visual simulation as the sensors were still fine. Thus the reason they figured it was a fake. As for the tactic it is valid, just anticipated by Data.

Actually, it worked against a bounty hunter ship and the blind spot of a ISD, one no Federation capital ship could fit in.

Actually new sources of stygium were found by the Emperor during the Trilogy, but his obsession with building the Death Star clouded his judgement and he failed to fully exploit the discovery.

Only one cloak has displayed no bobbles and that was in Nemesis. Even then it bobbled when the ship fired.

Actually we know how fast Star Destroyers move and in the Radio dramas they were described as "....hurtling through the asteroid belt at best possible speed." So that brings us to knowing a speed 2133 meters per second and the asteroid seemed to being at least twice that. Angle of impact is uncertain, but hardly matters. The asteroid didn't plow in like jem'hadar fighters do on a galaxy class star ship, it exploded on the surface like the rocks thrown by Andre the Giant in Princess Bride.

Same is true of Federation ships, however the weapon has to be substantially more powerful against ISD's than what is carried by Federation vessel's or even Breen or Borg.

Well, maybe the weapons on the air speeder were less powerful than ST phasers. maybe....

Okay first Radio documentaries and Novelization as well as EU history stats that the Star Destroyers followed the ion trail of the Millenium Falcon to the planetoid Vaporizing out every asteroid in the way. Some of those asteroids were well over ten times the length of the Millenium Falcon. Later EU history stated that the Turbolaser was able to vaporize large asteroids in one shot. Finally the Republic era troop transport carried 8 turbolaser cannon that could create a volley that was in excess of 200 gigatons.

Second you will find no movie canon that refutes this as it does not exist, period. You can try all you want, but I've seen all six movies and it just doesn't exist. Nice try though.

Finally Paramount owns Star Trek and they decide what is canon, there is of course higher canon called the shows, but if they supply figures it is right. 10.4 gigawatt phaser arrays and 64 megaton photon torpedoes. Suck it up. not to mention in show 400 gigawat limitation on GCS shields.

Hmmm, wonder how the ships go to warp is gravity several times earth, but prefer not to use warp in solar system due to gravitation stresses. And i wonder how the Interdictor produce less gravity than earth standard when they produce one coruscant standard or 1.1G.

 

To recloak after firing, yes.

No, actually, you're toast, because that's what the phasers are firing at.

Only - as the ANH novelization notes - within close vicinity of a planet.

Yes. Large, complex, sensitive affairs... which may or may not detect certain varieties of Trek cloaks.

He overlaid a simulation on the sensors.

The tactic is valid (hides you from passive EM sensors) but of limited use (you show up the moment they take a serious scan) except in SW (in which case you don't even need a magnetic pole).

A blind spot no Federation capital ship has.

The evidence firmly indicates that SW sensors detect active EM emissions, and nothing else. (Including, but not entirely limited to, visible light.)

Which is why Thrawn used stygium cloaks when trying to rebuild the empire.

Oh, wait... he didn't. Never mind.

No bobbles?

Actually, bobbles are the exception rather than the rule. In most instances of cloak use, no bobbles are noticed.

Less than half that relative to the ISD. As the visuals explicitly indicate.

Actually, it really, really, REALLY matters. That's why tanks are shaped the way they are - to present high slope to incoming enemy tank shells.

One exploded on the surface, one exploded the entire bridge tower.

Same is true of Federation ships, provided their shields are down and you have a weapon substantially more powerful than any non-Death Star weapon used in any movie.

The bolts seen blowing up ISDs do not come from airspeeders, although not too greatly larger.

For reference, airspeeder cannons ~ type I phasers at typical use settings.

Nowhere is this stated. One asteroid is described as large in that it is closely comparable to the Falcon.

Cite a source. Which is overridden by TESB anyway.

Contradicted by the movies in innumerable ways.

The novelizations and movies contradict completely those claims.

Paramount has decided that the TMs are not canon.

And we've been over this a hundred times about the absurdity of your 400 GW claims.

"Prefer" not to, but do with alarming frequency.

Oh dear me. They're racking up the wear and tear on their nacelles. Might have to replace them after twenty years, instead of fifty.

No, they produce a mass shadow sufficient to inhibit hypertravel within a small radius, which is 0.1g.

 

actualy,a st ship only needs to have 15% of the magnetic containment of the antimatter running,everything else can be powered down.

and that was 400GWs of jacketed energy that was tuned to disassemble the shields,theres a diffrence between taking something apart or smashing it with a hammer,this was an omnipotant being taking the shields apart under the guise of a hunsock ship.he could have wiped out the entire sector with just a thought.


the only thing that episode shows is that 400gws of jacketed protons/antiprotons manifested by an omnipotent being can dissasemble the coherant energy of a GSC shields .

are TLs jacketed protons/antiprotons manifested by an omnipotent being?




Worf : "Shields are down. Captain, they hit us with four hundred
gigawatts of particle energy!"
Picard : "Damage?"
Worf : "Superficial[keywords here]. But I am having trouble reassembling the shields."
[Vessel fires again]
Worf : "Shields down. There is thermal damage to the hull."
Data : "The warship is capable of striking us with far more powerful
bursts."


superficial damage, and the energy uxbridge was firing made it so the shields could NOT reassemble,this would have happened to any shields on any ship.
400GWs would have taken out a SSD shields,not throu brute force,but from interupting the coherant energy of the shielding,theres a HUGE diffrence between the two.