Star Wars vs Star Trek

every single time anything in sw shoots anything its NEVER anything more then a light defence gun or something.

has anything in sw ever even SHOT there medium or heavy TLs?


and i know im not the only one to notice this,anytime anything in sw shots,its always the bare minimum smallest possible weapon,but any time anything in st shoots at anything its always the abosolute maximum damage that weapon could ever possible hope to achieve.

i call bullshit on your pathetic bias.

 

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Did you notice the part where it was refuted by higher canon? Duh.

 

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what was refuted? the fact nothing in sw has ever bothered to fire anything more then a light defence gun according to you,or you asinine ramblings about 400gjs?


cause the only thing refuted was the 400gj bullshit.


when an omnioptant being makes a ship apear and blasts you with world devestating freaky powers,your sensors probably dont work so well.not to mention they were being hit with pure antimatter from an imaginary ship created by an omnipotant being,and it didnt drop the shields,it disassembled them.

theres a diffrence.taking something apart is NOT the same as breaking it.


that same 400gjs would have done the same thing to a SD,only they wouldnt have been smart enough to leave them alone.

 

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The ridiculously weak weapon fired on the Yavin moon.

Actually it is supported by every other piece of canon in Star Trek. Don't think so? Then examine your shows better.

What difference? Dropped-Disassembled seemed about the same effect. And it was 400 gw of jacketed antimatter. 400 gw is 400 gw and nobody seemed to blink that it would mess with shields, in fact the captain was expecting damage. That the ship was created by the alien beings powers of matter and energy does nothing to change the reality of it. If anything it was shown he could only create and destroy his own items at will. He could use them for genocide as well, but hey he was angry.

 

theres a HUGE diffrence between disassembly and destroying.he used 400gjs of energy to take apart the energy/matter of the shielding systems and keep it from recombining into the shield.

see,they never said ''shields are down''they said'' i cant reassemble the shields''.

and he didnt want them dead,he wanted them to leave.


he could have taken down the shields on ANY ship,including SDs just so you know,the sensor readings mean dick when they come from an omnipotant being.

 

Sure seems like he said shields down. And Worf was at tactical he was getting the feedback of what was hitting the shields. In other words though created by 'unknown powers' the threat was real.

 

doesnt matter

the diffrence between something being disassembled or being destroyed is taking something apart with a wrench or smashing it with a hammer.

in this case the shields were taken apart and he wouldnt let them reform to form a shield.which is not the same as bashing the shields with pure energy until they drop as youd like to think.

this would have happened with ANY ship,a SD would have been incapacitated in the same way.

this guy killed a whole planet with his thoughts,hes essentialy a god,and by the way,you claim a photon is 33KTs,while at the same time claimg GSC shields are less then 400gjs.

so,which is it? a GSC can withstand multiple photons and disrupter blasts,but you claim 400gjs will drop its shields?

so which is it,either antimatter warheads are less then a few sticks of dynamite,or a GCS has well beyond 400gjs of shielding.

 

Did you completely ignore what was posted? The shelds were down, Worf was having trouble bringing the back ups online. Meaning it was hit so hard the capacitors went "holy crap!" and froze up. We saw nothing to indicate the alien did anything but direct at the ship a bolt of energy that did horrendous damage.

No he killed a race, he didn't say how, for all we know he created huge explosive devices on each world, killing them. He was far from a god, just part of a race with sufficently high levels of technology.

Actually i claim a Photon torpedoes is 18.5 kt to 20 kt. No more. And I claim a GCS shields are less than 400 gigawatts. Now take note that I do think Quantum torpedoes fall in the megaton range.

Actually it is both. I gave my reasons earlier. You never see a photon explode on shields. They merely impact and are destroyed. It is my contention that Star Trek shields are sophisticated point defense systems using sensors and graviton emitters. It would explain many things like how they reinforce them. Why light gets through but not lasers. Why they seem to let some damage through without dropping first. In all actuallity it is a brilliant form of defense becuase if an attack is not happening you do not expend much power. It also explains why transporters are hindered, becuase they can't get a good pattern lock through all the EM noise. Finally it would explain how you make shield piercing weapons. If the sensors think the incoming device is harmless and or a return scan it will let it through.

 

I beleive ST shields project a hollow sphere of retarding force that flickers on and off at a certain frequency. This is why photons can penetrate a shield once a ship's frequency is discovered (Fire at same frequency and 180 degrees out off phase).

 

That has been postulated but why would you need sensors working with the shields, and if it was a bubble of force why not just turn off the flicker when you meet borg and run for the hills?

 

Actually, it's on the same level as the quote I put it next to.

And everything you listed? If they absorbed a significant amount of energy, they'd show it.

Not 500m... 700m. Not 15 TLs... it actually has a total of 60 TL mounts, including the assorted cannon mounts. It has 15 full turbolaser batteries included in those 60 mounts.

The ISD-I mounts 60 TL battery + 60 IC. About 4 times as much. The ISD-II, perhaps a bit more firepower with the heavies.

To put it bluntly... you aren't.[/quote]I based this off the isoton connundrum. As at one point Voyager scans a vessel and made apparant that it can carry millions of isotons of anitmatter waste, despite being about the same size as the enterprise. So I postulating the hypothesis that Isoton is 1,000,000 killograms.[/quote]Something the size of the Enterprise (actually, the blocky waste disposal vessel had substantially more than the cubage) can carry millions of tons of cargo.

This actually suggests that isoton=ton of antimatter, in this particular case. Probably being used as a unit of weight, rather than a unit of yield; a logical unit for that would be isoton = 1 ton of H=>He.

... none of those require gigaton bombs. High-yield photorps are gigaton bombs.

Actually... faintly possible.

No, it blew up a 5m chunk of asteroid with a single direct hit. Look more carefully.

The TM isn't a canon source... nor is a shuttle within two orders of magnitude of the E-D.

...

TWScott, you've now taken the cake. You're now claiming that the NX-01 could take the E-D in a few shots.

None of which are remotely comparable with a photonic torpedo, in terms of accuracy or power.

 

Your reply makes no sense, but matter little as your source is not one of the recognized canon even if it was not trumped by Empire Strike Back.

My bad I was counting only the Turbolasers and not the lights Nebulan B also carry. Also for the record a Nebulon-B was supposed to be superior to the Dreadnaught class so I would assume we are talking similiar firepower. Even then the ships are not even a four for one match for ISD-1 or 2 becuast the ISD have superior shields and armor allowing them to shrug off much more damage. It take 6 or more Nebulon-B frigates or a Mon Calamari cruiser to go toe to toe with a Star Destroyer.

Sorry I should have clarified it had as much cubage as the GCS Enterprise. Which I might add weighs 400+ million tons according to canon. Now considering that the Anitmatter is shown to be heavier than air, that places a lot of heavy antimatter waste, which it presumably is, in the same size area or larger. This would tend to support isotons being 1,000,000 kgs. Of course if we were truly anal we could make Trekkies stick to the current scientific Isoton, which we should probably do.

And I suppose you have a degree in Astrophysics? No. Then you wouldn't know would you. Actully you could use gigaton bombs for these as aa away of making damn sure.

I did and from what my father AS in Glacialgeomorphology says not only were some the asteroid shattered larger than 10 meters that they appeared to be of minerals he would not want to try doing that with. So my statement stands.

This fact was handed to me by a Die-hard trekkie and backed by the Star Trek Encyclopedia and Paramount. And type 6 phasers are only 4 steps away from Type 10 which the big ships use. And RUnabaout phasers have been shown to be almost half as powerful as Capaital ship phasers, so kiss it.

Actually i didn't make the claim about the weapons power, in fact i was very disbelieving of your claims. I was hoping youy could shed some light on this disparity. How one of the first armed exploration craft made by Earth could but out 25% more energy than the craft that crippled the defensive and offensive potential of the Eneterprise-D in three shots. Obviously you can't so are now trying to claim that I am making such an upsurd claim. You have proven yourself a liar and scoundrel without me even needing to point it out.

 

Long time away, and I see you've been busy. Can anyone fill me in? I imagine we haven't really gotten anywhere since Mars is still here, but I expected as much. Looks like we are stil arguing about the power output of SW weapons? Tsk tsk. Simple physics just never seems to do, does it? Oh well. Consider this, then.
The slagging of a planet's surface requires a certainb amount of heat energy applied to the entire surface of a planet within a certain amount of time, or else you will not get an even, golden-brown crisp with a flaky and delicate texture that melts in your mouth... The temperature that needs to be reached depends on the material of the planet, but it needs to be just under the evaporation point for the main material of the planet. Taking Taris for example, as a planetwide city, its primary material is Durasteel.
Durasteel is an alloy made of lommite, meleenium, neutronium, and zersium, all fictional ores created in SW. It is used for everything from ship and building construction to use in heavy toys and smelting pots. It was designed to be paramount in resistance of heat, cold, and physical stress. Therefore, while a boiling point cannot be directly derived, we know it is far superior to anything we have on Earth in real life. Meanwhile, back on Taris, a single ship managed to slag the planet with ease, destroying all life and infrastructure on the upper levels (concievably several miles, like Coruscant or Nar Shadaa). Keep in mind as well that this ship is ancient in the Star Wars universe, several thousand years old, and it really doesn't show comparably how powerful the modern weapons of the galaxy are.

 

im going to explain something to you.


why is a six foot anti-matter warhead,less powerful then the first atomic bomb?

wouldnt they just use a small nuke,or even a conventional warhead instead?

your telling me that the same group of people who have perfected energy/matter interchangability,cant figure out how to make an antimatter warhead with more bang then the first abomb?

its ANTIMATTER,dumbass,its the highest form of reactive matter you can get,NOTHING can produce more power then it,it would be hard to make an antimatter bomb with that low of a yield.


they can frag a 300M asteroid to dust,they can produce a 300KM wide explosion on a planets surface,only an idiot would try to claim them to weaker then the first atomic bomb.the romulans can implode a 2km solid iron asteriod with a plasma torp ,a SINGLE klingon bird of prey can destroy an entire planets surface until theres not even DNA evidence.




http://www.starfleetjedi.net/m3.html

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/k3.html

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/n3.html

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/o3.html


yep,all these examples are well beyond a mere 18Kts,most are well over GT,in fact,youd be hard pressed to find an example of a a 18kt explosion.




and by the way,the slave one can blow up a 5 meter asteroid? a hand phaser can vaporize 3 cubic meters of solid rock.

 

Actually Star Trek does use Thermonuclear warheads as well, but regardless. The Photon torpedo is a relatively clean device. It has very little residual harmful radiation and from what I have seen very little fallout. It's like some one made a global phaser emitter, basically.

Actually hypermatter and protomatter produce much more power. As for making a such a small warhead, it would be easier as truly small amounts like grams would be used. Plus with only grams you need to shield you do not have to worry if ships power fals as the torpedo could possess a long life capacitor for containment.

Okay first, a specially prepared photon torpedo had trouble busting up a 100m asteroid into chucks the size of people head and torso. Second a romulan plasma torpedo is an entirely different animal. Third that klingon bird of prey did that trick by igniting the atmospheres volatile gases. Kid with a match could have done that last feat.


[

By these guys incredibly flawed math, maybe so. The explosion in Skin of Evil is no bigger than the blast you'd have seen from Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Do you not understand that the bright flash is much bigger than the destructive wave. Second the phaser strikes on a comet are totally off as they assumed that the ice has the same density as water. The spaceship that is blown up from orbit is smaller than an acre, hell it's smaller than my house. Data's hand phaser probably used all of it's power doing that stunt. Nothing on that page is conclusive, and all the pictures are too small to see anything of value. Not only that but you do not once see the equations they use. Which means they might as well pull numbers out of the air.

Yeah once, maybe twice but it has too short a range and it's powersupply is extremely finite. Plus it was blowing apart ones larger than 10 meters as well.


Mars13 you are wasting your time either do the math yourself or quite posting.

 

sorry,an 18kt explosion does NOT produce a 300km flash,not even close.youd have trouble seeing it from 14kms,hell a 50MT hydrogen bomb doesnt make a flash that big.

a 300km+ wide explsoion take a shitload of energy,well over 50MTs.

 

The flash of bright light form a 20 kiloton explosion is bright enough to see over 150 miles away and last I checked that was close enough to 300km for anyone. Especially from a device where the damageing part of it's explosion is supposedly photons.

 

The first atomic bomb detonated on July 16, 1945 near Los Alamos could be seen 200 miles away. The first fusion h-bomb detonated wiped out the island it was tested on completely. To say you couldn't see it from that far away is simply bull.

 

What? Nebulon-B's an Escort Frigate. How the fuck can the frigate be as powerful as a battlecruiser like an Imperial Dreadnaught? I know DNs are old ships, but still...

 

So you now consider only the movies and authorized adaptations canon? Because remember, there's absolutely nothing distinguishing Darksaber from the assorted other materials published under the Star Wars labels in terms of canonicity, such as everything you're referencing in regard to the BDZ concept.

And? That still doesn't support the BDZ figures you're claiming.

There is no "current scientific Isoton." And 1,000,000 kg of antimatter per "isoton" doesn't give us lower yields.

Be careful what you wish for, TW Scott. I prefer to remain impersonal. You wouldn't believe me if I did start talking about my degrees... so don't even ask what subjects belong to my registered domains of expertise.

You can accept that I know exactly what I'm talking about when I say that a gigaton bomb has pretty much no practical use in these terms... or you can come up with a good use for one. For deflecting errant asteroids, you're better of sticking a drive system onto them.

And? I doubt he scaled carefully from watching the film. The Jedi starfighter is a very small craft - smaller than most people realize on cursorily watching the film.

However, you might ask him this question: If he were to try blasting it, would a truckload of TNT probably manage to break it into chunks (as seen in the film), or would he need a suitcase nuke? The former is a couple gigajoules; the latter is what you're claiming.

If you don't want to bother your dad about that, read here: to get a general idea of what that amount of explosive is like:

The Star Trek Encyclopedia is no more canon than the Technical Manuals - in fact, it mostly just reiterates TM material on technical topics.

How?

We've already discussed how. If you don't want to start throwing away all the dialogue about weapon power - in which case you don't have any claims left - you get to remember that it's a godlike being who can be very clever about applying energy in exactly the right form.

Meanwhile, if you want to get picky, the 5 TJ per shot figure is confirmed by visual evidence. They test-fire at an asteroid. The captain wants to shave off a few meters of the asteroid; they end up blasting off a mountaintop's worth or so.

Actually, if anything, the visual effects suggest that the 5 TJ figure is (as I mentioned it seemed next to the other figures) too low.