i was at the v-day peace match in melborne

250 000 matched for peace

for the victorians here, there is a list of other events HERE (http://www.vicpeace.org/)

i know there are a lot of threads about this but please dont merge it goofy cause i have some stuff i collected that i want to post up here latter today (when i can get on dads computer)

If the war starts
Rally on that day at 5 pm at State Library, city

Protesting is fun (at least without a police state)! And regardless, never boring!

yes, Hype. That's a part of the reason why you'll see a lot of students there. getting students to protest about anything is about as difficult as getting a dog to eat.

and getting the elderly?

doctors?

the teaches union?

SCHOOL students? (not uni students)

no one seems to have put anything up about the NZers so i will

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,5988017%255E421,00.html

Around 7,000 people filled out the lawn in front of Parliament in Wellington in a mostly good natured protest, local radio reported, while a similar number marched along central Queen Street in Auckland.

14 000 isnt to bad (i dont know the population of that city so im not sure what % that is)

PRIME Minister John Howard must take notice of the Australian public's strong opposition to a US-led war with Iraq, Australian Democrats leader Andrew Bartlett said today.

Mr Bartlett said Mr Howard should not ignore the strong turnout to anti-war rallies around Australia this weekend.

Between 100,000 and 200,000 people attended an evening rally for peace in Melbourne's CBD yesterday.

Mr Bartlett said he expected similar numbers at other peace protests being held around Australia this weekend.

"The trouble with the approach John Howard is taking is it's almost beyond what John Howard thinks, now he's ceded Australia's authority to (US) President Bush," Mr Bartlett said.

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PM 'should not ignore public opinion'
February 15, 2003

PRIME Minister John Howard must take notice of the Australian public's strong opposition to a US-led war with Iraq, Australian Democrats leader Andrew Bartlett said today.

Mr Bartlett said Mr Howard should not ignore the strong turnout to anti-war rallies around Australia this weekend.

Between 100,000 and 200,000 people attended an evening rally for peace in Melbourne's CBD yesterday.

Mr Bartlett said he expected similar numbers at other peace protests being held around Australia this weekend.

"The trouble with the approach John Howard is taking is it's almost beyond what John Howard thinks, now he's ceded Australia's authority to (US) President Bush," Mr Bartlett said.

"That is what is so unforgivable about how he has approached this - he has basically disempowered the entire country."



(i wish i could find ONE sorce of numbers, we need someone whos job it is to count these people, so far i have herd everything from 100 000 to 1/4 of a million)

i will be interested to see how many we get once we add up all the protests around the country and the world

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,5988098%255E1702,00.html

Thousands march in Canberra
February 15, 2003

A CROWD estimated at between 3,000 and 5,000 people began marching through the central Canberra suburb of Civic this afternoon to protest against Australian involvement in an impending war in Iraq.

An ACT police spokesman estimated the crowd at 3,000 but organisers said it was the largest protest crowd ever seen in Canberra and was at least 5,000 in number.

The rally heard from speakers such as Federal Labor MP and former Western Australian premier Carmen Lawrence and Catholic Bishop Pat Power.

Organiser and Australian National University Emeritus Professor Bob Douglas said he had never seen a crowd so big at a Canberra rally.

"It's wall-to-wall people," he said.



so it continues:D

(to put it into perspective cambra is VERY small, its basically just parliment, the embassys and other goverment buildings)

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,5987933%255E1702,00.html

Anti-war sentiment mounting
February 15, 2003

THE Greens unfurled a banner on a prominent Sydney building today as protest action against a war on Iraq increased across NSW.

Two activists scaled an awning of Sydney's MLC building this morning to unfurl the banner, which read "No US Oil War - The Greens".

The MLC Centre is the location of the US Consulate General.

Despite the efforts of three burly security guards, both activsts managed to avoid being caught.

Greens NSW upper house MP Lee Rhiannon called the action a great success.



(the protests there are on sunday i think)

Carmen Lawrence. Carmen Lawrence??? ok. If you take her as any sort of authority on anything.

By the way, Canberra. While being the seat of the Australian government, consists of a little more than "basically just parliament, the embassies and other goverment buildings". If you have any queries about it, just ask the people whose homes were recently threatened by the bushfires. They might disagree.

i have family LIVING in the ACT thank you very much and CANBRA IS just basically goverment buildings

Canberra with a population of nearly 300 000 is Australia's capital and only major inland city. It is unique in having every detail of it's construction planned from the beginning, then being built halfway between Sydney and Melbourne after a dispute over which would become the nations capital.
The nerve centre of Australian national government, is just a three hour drive or a 45-minute flight south-west of Sydney. Set in a broad valley in the southern tablelands of New South Wales, Canberra is a well-planned lakeside city of parklands, impressive restaurants, beautiful bushland and leafy suburbs. Many of the public buildings display some of Australia's most innovative architecture including those housing our major, and most impressive, national attractions.



not exactly a big population

There's no one living in those leafy suburbs... They're all government buildings. Is that right?

Despite the efforts of three burly security guards, both activsts managed to avoid being caught.

*laughs* Oh... Asguard.... you are, if nothing else, good for a laugh.

Think about this sentence. Think about it very, very hard.

If what you want comes to pass, these very same people are going to be doing your own "news" reporting.

um yes i love how you cant read anything

as i said the syndny protests are on SUNDAY

So much for our American Freedom! The mayor of New York blocked many manifestations on grounds that they had no permit and those that had permit, they were allowed to Manifest but not to march, they could just seat or stand around like encaged sheep’s.
Can some one fucken explain that to me? We, the American better stop opening our big mouths, and realized what kind of secret-service military type government we have!
:rolleyes:

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,5992736%255E2,00.html


February 16, 2003

SEVERAL million people waving banners and chanting anti-war slogans have jammed streets across the world to oppose US plans to invade Iraq in one of the biggest global peace protests in history.

Rallies fired up in cities across Europe, the Middle East and Asia, with organisers claiming turnout of three million in Rome, and at least half a million each in Britain, France and Germany.

"Bush: hands off Iraq" read one banner in Moscow. "Don't attack Iraq on MY behalf" read another in Belgrade, while in the streets of Islamabad protesters set US flags ablaze.

Microzoft - I have new hope since those demonstrations. Although the US govt is entering a destructive and paranoid period, I don't believe fascism can reach critical mass anymore. The Nazis never had to pen up protesters- no groups of Germans ever came out to protest before the Anschluss.

We did, and we will. They'll have to shoot me (and at least 1,000,000 others) on the street to escape being disgraced and discredited in the end. They know that after the first hundred dead, citizens would likely start shooting back.

I know it sounds corny, but I always get so charged up at protests-

"We Shall Overcome" :cool:

Originally posted by hypewaders
Microzoft - I have new hope since those demonstrations. Although the US govt is entering a destructive and paranoid period, I don't believe fascism can reach critical mass anymore. The Nazis never had to pen up protesters- no groups of Germans ever came out to protest before the Anschluss.

We did, and we will. They'll have to shoot me (and at least 1,000,000 others) on the street to escape being disgraced and discredited in the end. They know that after the first hundred dead, citizens would likely start shooting back.

I know it sounds corny, but I always get so charged up at protests-

"We Shall Overcome" :cool: I really don’t have much hope, particularly when we analyze our own culture. We don’t seem to care because even if our government makes a mistake, it always finds a way to cover it up and turn it into good. We are underestimating current events.

Yes, we should overcome one way or another. If the war gets started, at least the good out of it will be deterioration inside our own government systems and finally the international community will realized was the US all about. This will be the result of having a nation that had profited from all conflicts in the last couple of hundred years, and converted all that cash in military power. Now, with that military power, (we invest in military more then all Europe put together), there’s no need to be diplomatically intelligent, there is no need to show wisdom.
European hasn’t spend on armament and now enjoy a better medical and social security system. Where did we go wrong?

Fascism may not reach critical levels, but really what you call a government that can bully the world, use profane language, and insult other countries on simple suspicion?
Change the law at will by twisting arms in congress, and capitalize in a tragedy that either he new about it or even was accomplice to it. Closed down investigations, and sets as secret anything he wants. So, we are not in a fascism but we are certainly walking the path. The German retired their Justice Minister for saying that Bush capitalized on citizens sentiments in similar manner as Hitler did. Our government compares Germany as totalitarian governments like Syria and Cuba and no ones need to apologize. See the difference?

I don’t think congress will allow Bush and his war cabinet to get away with this historical suicidal endeavor, but in a way I hope the do let him getaway with it, because sometimes people Here in the US and overseas need to pay a dear price to finally fucken wake up.
:m:

So where are you geting your info from?Have you got better contacts than MI5 MI6 CIA ect ect to base your ideas on??
Or are you just pissing in the wind?

MI5, MI6, CIA, ect are the ones who are falling behind current events, Odin.

MI5, MI6, CIA, ect are the ones who are falling behind current events, Odin.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you must know what info they have,to make this statment.
Please inlighten me!
& not with bullshit!

They have politically-driven, labrinthine bureaucracies that can't keep up with the pace of change in the world. Information-hoarders are rapidly losing their grip and relevance.

Do you think the unprecedented, and ever-increasing number of leaks from these agencies means nothing? They are no longer a reliable source for their masters to figure out what is going on, and they are no longer a secure repository for said spotty and life-limited information.

Governments are becoming disappointed with their traditional spook corporations. The spooks are furiously tap-dancing to provide a facsimile of rare knowledge. As privacy shrinks for individuals, and information grows new digital legs every second, governments and their most Ottoman-style agencies are losing their figleafs.

hypewaders
I did say no bullshit,I should have said no generalisation bullshit!

Originally posted by odin
hypewaders
I did say no bullshit,I should have said no generalisation bullshit! I really wonder what it’s exactly bullshit to you, and if it is ever worth it for anyone to invest the time to get you out of your own bullshit concept.:rolleyes:

FEDERAL COURT BANS PEACE MARCH IN NEW YORK CITY
NEW YORK CITY

A federal judge ruled on Feb. 10 that anti-war demonstrators may not march past the United Nations complex on Saturday, or anywhere else in Manhattan. The judge agreed with NY City officials that a large, moving rally of 100,000 people or more raised serious security risks. The judge said the organizer would have to settle for a stationary rally five blocks north of the U.N.

In refusing the march, the city does not violate the demonstrators' First Amendment right, claimed Federal District Court of Manhattan Judge Barbara S. Jones, since their free-speech rights were adequately protected by the city's counteroffer of a rally for 10,000 people at Dag Hammarskjold Plaza with overflow space as far north on First Avenue as needed.

Judge Jones said the city had compelling reasons for restricting the march saying it would not be able to guarantee the safety of marchers or of the United Nations building.

Police officials said that march organizers had not been able to give a firm estimate on how many people would be attending the march, so they feared they could not provide sufficient security.

First Amendment experts consider the ruling wrong. Victor A. Kovner, leading First Amendment laywer and a former corporation counsel under Mayor David Dinkins, said it marked a "low moment in New York City's history."

"Large marches are being held in cities throughout the nation and the world, Kovner said, "and it is incomprehensible that the finest police force in the world cannot accommodate a tradition peaceful protest. Given the wealth of precedents for peaceful marches, it is a highly disturbing precedent."

Source: The New York Times, Feb. 11, 2003
:rolleyes:

odin: "Please inlighten me! & not with bullshit!

My apologies, but I looked for some time for a source you may feel comfortable with. Not an easy task. I found that honesty from TNR on intel requires backing up to Bubba days. If you're not afraid I'm BSing you, you can just read the excerpts:
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1282/n14_v50/21102283/p4/article.jhtml?term=
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...if the U.S. in all its power cannot sense that one of the world's most transparent and penetrable countries is about to change the global nuclear equation forever, there is a problem. How will we ever learn about the intentions of Iran, North Korea, Libya, Syria, or Iraq? How can we possibly be prepared for China's rise, a Saudi secession crisis, a refugee crisis somewhere in Africa that dwarfs those of the recent past, or a war over oil in the Caucasus? Recognizing that we must learn the hard way about why people do what they do to each other would be a start. Otherwise, we are headed for a continued (and very expensive) intelligence blackout."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about an easy-to-confirm timeline af CIA "achievements" in Iraq?
from http://www.zundelsite.org/english/zgrams/zg1998/zg9802/980220.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1958: Britain's Iraqi puppets, King Faisal and Nuri as-Said, are overthrown by the bloodthirsty Col. Kassim. The U.S. uses Kassim to attack Nasser. Kassim is murdered by Col. Aref in a CIA-mounted coup. Then Aref's helicopter is blown up. A few murders later, the CIA helps engineer into power a promising, young, Baath Party enforcer, Saddam Hussein.

1969: The U.S. elbows Britain out of Libya to gain control of its high-grade oil. The CIA overthrows the British puppet, King Idris, and in one of its most brilliant moves - helps into power a young, reformist colonel, Moammar Khadafy. When Khadafy subsequently complains the Arabs are being robbed of their oil by the West, and raises prices, he goes onto America's hit list.

1976: The U.S., Iran and Israel secretly arm Iraq's Kurds and promote their rebelion to destabilize Iraq. A Kurdish revolt plays a major role in igniting the Iran-Iraq war (1980-1988) in which one million died. The U.S. abandons the Kurds and gets chummy with Baghdad.

1980: Saddam Hussein becomes America's most important Mideast ally in trying to crush Iran's Islamic revolution. Urged on, armed and financed by the U.S., Saddam invades Iran in 1980. The CIA and Pentagon supply military advice and intelligence on Iran. U.S. and British Intelligence help Iraq obtain its chemical and biological warfare capabilities.

1996: The Bay of Camels is the CIA's biggest flop since Cuba. Urged on by President Clinton, the CIA mounts an elaborate coup against Saddam Hussein. Iraqi exiles are armed and trained by the CIA to march on Baghdadf from U.S./British-ruled Kurdistan. The CIA organizes a cabal of generals to assassinate Saddam. Public places in Baghdad are bombed, many civilians killed, in order to "destabilize" Iraq (this while the U.S. is busy denouncing terrorism).

But Saddam's spies have infiltrated the plot. The whole operation collapses. The CIA's agent network in Iraq is rolled up. Many Kurds back Saddam, turn on pro-U.S. Kurds. CIA agents in Kurdistan run for their lives, abandoning allies and tons of documents. Saddam is strengthened. The CIA's inept director, John Deutsch, is fired for this Mother of All Fiascos.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Odin you have no need to feel lonely defending America's "intelligence" services:
http://www.expertwitnessradio.org/essays/e10.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You and the so-called American "Press" are eager to pile on excusing "complacency, and a congress that refused to take action in spite of well documented knowledge of the extraordinary, decades-long ineptitude of both FBI and CIA."

It's no BS, Odin that the CIA struggles not only with reality, but also in presenting their findings to administrations that often do not want to hear them. An immense frustration in the intel community and especially with more subjective humint is that agents are routinely pressured to substantiate current US govt preconceptions and policies, rather than discover uncorrupted facts on the ground.

Thanks hypewaders now thats more interesting!

Happy to oblige:cool:

Originally posted by hypewaders
Happy to oblige:cool: For your missionary patience and for helping the lazy I think I’m gona
call you doctor, yeah!
Dr. Hypewaders
;)

Oops we hafta be careful- I was just congratulating you in another thread.

I think we probably should gain college credit here. I'm still an undergrad, though:)

Dr.Hypewaders wrote:
''1976: The U.S., Iran and Israel secretly arm Iraq's Kurds and promote their rebelion to destabilize Iraq. A Kurdish revolt plays a major role in igniting the Iran-Iraq war (1980-1988) in which one million died. The U.S. abandons the Kurds and gets chummy with Baghdad. ''

i was mentioning Turkey's kurdish problem in our discussion about the 'bad stuff' topic which coldrake found funny..

its not related to your discussion, but since hypewaders mentioned about the similar pattern i wanted to say couple things about it,sorry guys..
after world war-I, establishing a kurdish republic in the borders of Turkey-a country which has a very important strategic location-was the second project of germany and england at the beginning...(the first project was armenian)...with the changing imperyalist power, america took this second project from them.. they armed and made them believe they had to have their own country..the same story..then terror started, then army put more pressure on them..you know, terrorist hunting is something can easily be very ugly..

and about the topic, i was at SF rally yesterday.. meeting americans who can see uncle sam's real face was hopefull.. police arrested 50 teenagers thought..:m: