When you bring up the topic of the Holocaust (of 6,000,000 jews) to neo-Nazis, they usually respond in 1 of 4 ways.
1. They deny it ever happened.
2. They say it was an "exaggeration" or a conspiracy theory.
3. They try turning the tables or changing the subject.
4. They say nothing at all.

The pure and simple fact is, they're evil people.

But what about neo-Communists ? (and many other leftists)
When you bring up the topic of nearly 100,000,000 civilians torchered and killed under Communist governments in the 20th century (not including deaths from wars, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism), they react in the same way as the 4 catagories above.
Another excuse leftists make for this attrocity is that they were not "true perfect" Communist societies; well you could say that Germany wasn't a "true fascist" State too..... :rolleyes:

Public schools barely touch (if even mention) the Communist mass killings, and Hollywood has put out how many films about this ? 1 ? 2 ? :shrug:
And yet, the Communists killed several times more of their own civilians than the Nazis did !

Think it's fair to say leftists that fit those 4 catagories are as evil as neo-Nazis ?

What happens when you bring up the near genocide of the Native Americans by the Early Americans/Europeans to modern day Americans? Some have estimated that upwards to 300 million people died. How do they usually respond?

Also, are there something like 1 in 3 African American men in prisons in the USA at the moment? That's shocking.

How do Turks respond to mention of the Armenian genocide?

How do Muslims respond to their invasion of Persia and Byzantium? (I think they look at this as a high water-mark in their history - of course that's because no one was harmed but a lot of candy given out)

What do Mongolians think about their sacking of the ME, Russia, India, China, Europe....?

What happens when you bring up the near genocide of the Native Americans by the Early Americans/Europeans to modern day Americans? Some have estimated that upwards to 300 million people died. How do they usually respond?300 million! The population of the US has only very recently reached that level. There's no way in hell that there were anywhere near that number of Indians in what is now America.

Also, are there something like 1 in 3 African American men in prisons in the USA at the moment? That's shocking.What's so shocking? They commit crimes, they go to prison.

300 million! The population of the US has only very recently reached that level. There's no way in hell that there were anywhere near that number of Indians in what is now America.

Maybe not all at once, but it took Europeans 300 years to win the west. It likely also included Central America, which had cities as densely populated as any European ones at the time.

Maybe not all at once, but it took Europeans 300 years to win the west. It likely also included Central America, which had cities as densely populated as any European ones at the time.I still doubt the number was anywhere near 300 million. And anyway, most of those deaths were unintentional, due to disease. The rest, well, it sucks to bring a bow and arrow to a gun fight. By modern standards, it was a savage time, and we were the superior savages.

300 million! The population of the US has only very recently reached that level. There's no way in hell that there were anywhere near that number of Indians in what is now America.
What's so shocking? They commit crimes, they go to prison.It was the whole of the Americas and continued for centuries.

But anyway:
Scholars now believe that, among the various contributing factors, epidemic disease was the overwhelming cause of the population decline of the American natives. After first contacts with Europeans and Africans, some believe that the death of 90 to 95% of the native population of the New World was caused by Old World diseases such as smallpox and measles.


maybe it wasn't 300 million but it was a horrendous amount - and it was a near extermination.

Anyway, my point was more to get at the point of the OP. Which is HOW do Americans respond. Well: it was a savage time, and we were the superior savages. that's one way.

Cazzo, I'm curious: how many 'neo-Communists' have you discussed this with?

And while you're at it: what exactly is a 'neo-Communist'?

Nazi Germany was a totalitarian regime.
The Soviet Union was a totalitarian regime.
Anyone with any sense condemns both, utterly.
What's your point?

What happens when you bring up the near genocide of the Native Americans by the Early Americans/Europeans to modern day Americans? Some have estimated that upwards to 300 million people died. How do they usually respond?

With apologies. We admit to what we have done and regret that our ancestors did such wrongs. (Mine didn't but I'm talking in general.) We also point out that most of the indians killed were ina state of war with the US at the time. Yes there were plans successfully used to do much harm to the Native Americans, but one can argue that 99% of the East Coast had no clue what was going on during those periods, hell many Settlers had no clue. The smallpox laden blankets killed many settlers in the west as Indians traded with them. Nobody can claim that people were ignorant of the genocide in Germany.

Also, are there something like 1 in 3 African American men in prisons in the USA at the moment? That's shocking.

Actually, if if they didn't commit the crime they would not be in there. Not that I am say they are all 100% guilty. There are rare cases where an innoccent man is convicted of a crime wrongfully. But those are rare, noteworthy but exceedingly rare.

What happens when you bring up the near genocide of the Native Americans by the Early Americans/Europeans to modern day Americans? Some have estimated that upwards to 300 million people died. How do they usually respond?

Also, are there something like 1 in 3 African American men in prisons in the USA at the moment? That's shocking.

How do Turks respond to mention of the Armenian genocide?

How do Muslims respond to their invasion of Persia and Byzantium? (I think they look at this as a high water-mark in their history - of course that's because no one was harmed but a lot of candy given out)

What do Mongolians think about their sacking of the ME, Russia, India, China, Europe....?

I think we can pretty firmly put you in catagory "3" that I mentioned :
3. They try turning the tables or changing the subject.

Just think of it, nearly 100,000,000 innocent people deliberately starved to death, torchered, worked to death, and murdered by Communists less than 100 years ago.

Yet, Hollywood makes virtually no films about it........
History "teachers" say little if nothing about it..........
Leftists act like Neo-Nazi's when the subject is brought up...........

Just think of it, nearly 100,000,000 innocent people deliberately starved to death, torchered, worked to death, and murdered by Communists less than 100 years ago.

Yet, Hollywood makes virtually no films about it........
History "teachers" say little if nothing about it..........
Leftists act like Neo-Nazi's when the subject is brought up...........

um most of my family is left wing and none of them deny what the commies did was bad

Hitler wasn't a Communist.
Hitler was a Nazi.
Nazi's are responsible for the Holocaust.
Communists are not responsible for the Holocaust.

Hitler wasn't a Communist.
Hitler was a Nazi.
Nazi's are responsible for the Holocaust.
Communists are not responsible for the Holocaust.

Where did anyone say Hitler was a Communist ?
Where did anyone say Communists are responsible for the Holocaust ??

You seem to have completely misread what was stated. :rolleyes:

um most of my family is left wing and none of them deny what the commies did was bad

"Bad" is an understatment to say the least.

So why do you think Hollywood's pumped out hundreds of films about the Nazi Holocaust of 6,000,000 jews and minorities; yet they've made virtually no films about the even greater mass killings of the Communists ?

Why is it history "teachers" in public schools beat kids over the head about the Nazi Holocaust, but say little if anything about the even greater human loss under Communist governments ?

For those of you that think "it's because the Nazi Holocaust is more talked about". Well no duh ! left-wing Hollywood and historians made it that way.

Where did anyone say Hitler was a Communist ?
Where did anyone say Communists are responsible for the Holocaust ??

You seem to have completely misread what was stated. :rolleyes:

Oh.. then what were you referring to when you said:

Just think of it, nearly 100,000,000 innocent people deliberately starved to death, torchered, worked to death, and murdered by Communists less than 100 years ago.

:rolleyes:

Oh.. then what were you referring to when you said:

Nobody, that was a statement, not referring to anyone but the Communists.

So Communists starved, tortured, over worked, and murdered just 100 million people? Randomly?

Your mistake lies in thinking of 'the Communists' as an homogenous group with a unified ideology and a single goal. This is dangerous, totalitarian thinking. What you're actually referring to mainly, of course, is Stalinism. You'd do well to remember that amongst those dispatched under his regime were 1000s of Party members who opposed him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Personality_Cult_and_its_Consequences

In any case, take any ideology - be it Fascism, Communism, capitalism or whatever - and the deaths attributable to it will always run into millions (how many deaths through imperialism, slavery and exploitation of the 'Third World' could we lay at the doors of Western societies, I wonder? Get your calculator out). People just like killing people, it's a fact.

Another excuse leftists make for this attrocity is that they were not "true perfect" Communist societies; well you could say that Germany wasn't a "true fascist" State too.....
No you couldn't.

maybe it wasn't 300 million but it was a horrendous amount - and it was a near extermination.

Maybe so, but you're missing the very obvious: The intent to wipe out a race of people through industrialized prison camps is very different than inadvertently giving someone a cold or a disease.

The Soviet Union was a totalitarian regime.

It was also communist.

Your mistake lies in thinking of 'the Communists' as an homogenous group with a unified ideology and a single goal. This is dangerous, totalitarian thinking. What you're actually referring to mainly, of course, is Stalinism. You'd do well to remember that amongst those dispatched under his regime were 1000s of Party members who opposed him.

So there were "good" communist leaders, and by "good" we're supposed to assume you mean leaders less "bad" than Stalin?

I mean, Stalin may have been a sick man who carefully crafted a cult of personality that was more brutal than the men who came after him, but don't pretend for a moment that men like Kruschev are somehow laudable when set against Stalin's dark shadow, because they aren't.

Or look at "communism" in practice elsewhere. Mao killed millions, so did the Khymer Rouge in Cambodia. The Vietnamese systamatically purged their country after the US left. And then, of course, we have the bizarre, quasi-religious communism of Kim Jong Il in North Korea, another paradise. So yeah, communism has a great record. If we all just give it one more go, I'm sure it would work this time...

Just think of it, nearly 100,000,000 innocent people deliberately starved to death, torchered, worked to death, and murdered by Communists less than 100 years ago.

Yet, Hollywood makes virtually no films about it........
History "teachers" say little if nothing about it..........
Leftists act like Neo-Nazi's when the subject is brought up...........

I really hope I've got the wrong end of the stick here and this thread isnt one of those tiresome "The Jews own everything and manipulate media and the world by making us feel sorry for them - and liberals are like rilly rilly bad too hmmkay!" type of rants.

If it is I have a real big roll of tinfoil and a hat shaped mould you can borrow - gratis!

I guess I really am missing it? China is a Communist country, are they responsible for this 100 million person genocide that I'm still missing.

What about Capitalism? What about any form of government? I agree with redarmy11.

So there were "good" communist leaders, and by "good" we're supposed to assume you mean leaders less "bad" than Stalin?
If by "good" we mean, as you define it, less "bad" than Stalin then yes, there were "good" Communist leaders. They all still sucked though, as do the leaders of any system - be it fascist, 'communist' or capitalist - where the main aim is to accrue power and benefits to the ruling elite, at the expense of the huddled masses.

I don't like any isms.

But what about neo-Communists ? (and many other leftists)
When you bring up the topic of nearly 100,000,000 civilians torchered and killed under Communist governments in the 20th century (not including deaths from wars, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism), they react in the same way as the 4 catagories above.I don;'t like the word "evil".

I'm sure there are many Iraqis that think Americans are "evil" but from an American's point of view we're the "good guys". I not trying to change the subject but just pointing out that the word evil doesn't fit the situation. Most Nazis were not evil people. Most Communists were not evil people. As a matter of fact for the most part people are people. If you were raised post-WWI in Germany you may ended up a Nazi. If you were raised post-WWII in Russia would may have ended up a Communist.

What we need to do is find out why ordinary people can act savagely in certain situations. That was really my point in my post. To show that, when taking a long view of History, both Communism and Fascism are not anything out of the ordinary in terms of war and killing people.

Maybe so, but you're missing the very obvious: The intent to wipe out a race of people through industrialized prison camps is very different than inadvertently giving someone a cold or a disease.Trail of Tears?

Jews are not a race anyway - it's a religious beleif.

I don;'t think Fascism or Communism are unique. The Japanese about exterminated the Ainu. The Han Chinese are in the process of assimilating the Tibetans and Uyghurs. Most Egyptians think that they are "Arabic".

Why were the Jews in Alexandria so hated by their fellow citizens? Why where the Jews in Europe so hated? Why were the Jews in the Arabian peninsula killed off? Even the ancient Persian king mentions something about him being a good guy because he protected them while another Babylonia king persecuted them. I think it has more to do with one people segregating from mainstream society. Fascism and Communism must be looked at in this respect.

:
Scholars now believe that, among the various contributing factors, epidemic disease was the overwhelming cause of the population decline of the American natives. After first contacts with Europeans and Africans, some believe that the death of 90 to 95% of the native population of the New World was caused by Old World diseases such as smallpox and measles.

maybe it wasn't 300 million but it was a horrendous amount - and it was a near extermination.
Well, you've just pointed out that it wasn't an extermination, it was mostly just a population succumbing to disease.

I don;'t like the word "evil".

I'm sure there are many Iraqis that think Americans are "evil" but from an American's point of view we're the "good guys".

If you don't consider the killing of tens of millions of people evil, and on top of that, people that don't want anyone to know about it because they're empathetic to the mass extermination....wtf :confused:

And then you use moral relativism of the Iraq war... :rolleyes: pleasssssse

Communism never killed 100,000,000 people. That came from ONLY a few bias and unreliable sources. It is just like the conspiracy that said the government had planned the 9/11 attacks. It really makes no sense. It also came from outrageous and strange claims: As including the civilians in the USSR that were killed by the invading Germans.

Secondly, Communism is an economy!! Say it with me now!!! "E-C-O-N-O-M-Y!" It has to do with the realized system of human activities related to the production, distribution, exchange, and consumption of goods and services of a country or other area. It is the government/military that orders the killing of people.

Now on to fascism. Fascism is a combination of the characteristics of a government and an economy, so it is safe to make the claim that fascism is designed to kill people. Some of these characteristics of fascism are: cult of tradition, rejection of modernism, cult of action for action's sake, life is lived for struggle, fear of difference, rejection of disagreement, contempt for the weak, cult of masculinity and machismo, qualitative populism, appeal to a frustrated majority, obsession with a plot, illicitly wealthy enemies, and education to become a hero.

Communism is far better by democracy but the sad fact is communism has bad leaders. E.G two of the few oldest civilisations in the world India and China have been competing back to back for nearly 5000years since the Indus Valley civ and the Yellow Emperor. India did not participate in WW2 or any of the big mistakes of China such as Cultural revolution or Korean war yet today India is not only
-More corrupt then China
-More Violent deaths
-Hundreds of millions below the poverty line unlike China
-Ethnic divisions such as Bengal...Maoist...Kashmiri's....Sikhs....killing tens of thousands of civilians and threatening to break up India.
-Very very Poor
-Tribalism very common and people are often stoned to death and attacked with acid.
-And all this while they have not only had the support of both USA and Soviet union and without fighting in any huge wars.
-Rich folks can have slaves

China under communist rule is generations ahead in India's democracy rule. Not only is China far richer and more advanced, the equality factor is also held in high regards. As we have seen on the news last year a group of gangsters held mentally retarded people as slaves to work in brick factories and when they were caught they were executed. In India they would get away with it easy.

Now i compare India with China because India and China not only have simillar population levels but also have been rivals for nearly five thousand years, long before Gods of Greece or the Emperors of Rome or even before the Kings of persia.

What's so shocking? They commit crimes, they go to prison.

Ever hear of Tulia?

Tulia gained notoriety following a drug sting in July 1999 that rounded up 46 people, forty of whom were African Americans. The remaining detainees were white people known to have ties within the black community, and in fact lived in the black part of town. Nearly one in three of Tulia's black males were arrested, about 15% of the town's black population ....

.... During the roundup, no large sums of money, illegal drugs, drug paraphernalia, or illegal weapons were found. The accused drug dealers showed no signs of having any income associated with selling drugs. The drugs Coleman claimed to have bought from the accused did not have the fingerprints of the accused on them or their baggies. No independent witnesses could corroborate Coleman's claims. In his testimony, Coleman gave inaccurate descriptions of the "dealers" he had allegedly bought cocaine from. One suspect had his charges dropped when he was able to prove he had been at work during the times he had supposedly sold Coleman cocaine. Another produced bank and phone records indicating she was in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma at the time of her alleged crime. Many of the accused, however, seeing the long sentences dealt out by all-white juries in the earliest cases, pled guilty in return for lesser sentences, despite their proclaimed innocence. The remaining defendants were convicted solely on the basis of Coleman's testimony. The state attorney general, John Cornyn, awarded Coleman a prize for being "Lawman of the Year."

(Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulia,_Texas))

There's a punch line, of course. Who doesn't know what it is?

• CNN: "Gov. Perry pardons 35 Tulia defendants" (http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/22/tulia.pardons/index.html)
• CSDP: "Drug War or Race War?" (http://www.csdp.org/news/news/tulia.htm)
• NOW: Truth & Lies - Tulia Case Timeline (http://www.pbs.org/now/society/tuliatimeline.html)
• NAACP LDF: "Judge Ron Chapman Grants Bail And Releases 12 Tulia Defendants From Prison" (http://www.naacpldf.org/content.aspx?article=61)
• Law.com: "Jeff Blackburn: Tulia Defender" (http://www.truthinjustice.org/blackburn.htm)

Dear ignoramus,

Communism never killed 100,000,000 people. That came from ONLY a few bias and unreliable sources. It is just like the conspiracy that said the government had planned the 9/11 attacks. It really makes no sense. It also came from outrageous and strange claims: As including the civilians in the USSR that were killed by the invading Germans.

Secondly, Communism is an economy!! Say it with me now!!! "E-C-O-N-O-M-Y!" It has to do with the realized system of human activities related to the production, distribution, exchange, and consumption of goods and services of a country or other area. It is the government/military that orders the killing of people.

Now on to fascism. Fascism is a combination of the characteristics of a government and an economy, so it is safe to make the claim that fascism is designed to kill people. Some of these characteristics of fascism are: cult of tradition, rejection of modernism, cult of action for action's sake, life is lived for struggle, fear of difference, rejection of disagreement, contempt for the weak, cult of masculinity and machismo, qualitative populism, appeal to a frustrated majority, obsession with a plot, illicitly wealthy enemies, and education to become a hero.

And yet another person to prove my point that like neo-Nazis, left wing radicals and other idiots deny or downplay the truth.
I said nearly 100,000,000 innocent civilians, NOT 100,000,000.
And like I said, that estimate is deaths caused by Communist governments, NOT deaths due to war. You try to downplay and water it down by incorrectly stating they're also deaths caused by war...that is false.
If you don't believe that tens of millions (perhaps up to 100,000,000) innocent civilians were deliberately, knowingly, torchered and killed under Communist governments, here is a few references :

http://www.amazon.com/Communist-Genocide/lm/3DDUYHCHRYO1V
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gulag_camps
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left.html
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE2.HTM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mengistu_Haile_Mariam

It's intresting bringing up the topic of the great Communist 20th century mass murder, because you can find out just how radical many leftists are.
Like neo-Nazis, they try downplaying it, or denying it, or turning the tables.

Hitler wasn't a Communist.
Hitler was a Nazi.
Nazi's are responsible for the Holocaust.
Communists are not responsible for the Holocaust.

No the Communist are responsible for the Katyn Forest, and hundred of other massacres. Communism is responsible for a Holocaust that makes the German Holocaust look like a Sunday School picnic.

What I find interesting is that the Communist blamed the Germans Nazis for many of the crimes, they committed.

"Stalin's order to shoot the Polish POWs in 1940"
Stalin's order for the KATYN FOREST MASSACRE. Top Secret. 5 March 1940. USSR People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs. Moscow. To Comrade Stalin ...
http://www.geocities.com/athens/troy/1791/beria.html


communist massacres and atrocities of the second world
Communist Massacres and Atrocities of the Second World War. ABOVE: Latvian victims of the NKVD: THE BALTIC EXECUTIONS - Within two weeks of the Soviet ...
http://hometown.aol.com/rfoor76/

THE HORROR OF VINNITSA
Shortly after the occupation of the town of Vinnitsa in July, 1941, the German troops discovered a mass grave in the courtyard of the town's prison. The grave, twenty metres long by six metres wide, contained the bodies of 96 Ukrainian political prisoners.They were killed when it was found impossible to evacuate them prior to the arrival of the German troops. Behind the prison, in another courtyard, a second mass grave was found but the bodies were not exhumed. However, persistent rumours among the civilian population of Vinnitsa resulted in the discovery of more graves at three different locations. In a pear orchard, 2kms outside the town, 38 mass graves were found, in the old cemetery 40 graves were discovered and in the People's Park another 35. Digging began on May 25, 1943 and it was soon established that the victims had died some five years before. The digging was interrupted some time later by adverse weather conditions. It was never resumed because the Red Army re-occupied the area soon after. By the time the Soviets entered the town, a total of 9,439 corpses had already been counted. All had a bullet wound in the neck. Ukrainian witnesses testified that since 1938 until the arrival of the German troops in 1941, trucks kept coming and going day and night bringing dead bodies to the burial ground from the NKVD prisons in the area. Most of the victims were farmers and field workers (Kulaks) who were classed as 'enemies of the people' and who had resisted Stalin's collectivization policies.

CHARTSYSK MASSACRE
(Sept. 18, 1941) During the Soviet army retreat in the direction of Yeletsk, the retreating soldiers came upon a small ravine between Chartsysk and Snizhy stations about sixty kilometres from the city of Stalino. The horrible sight that befell their eyes was the dead bodies of many children aged from 14 to 16 years that partly filled the ravine. They were dressed in the black uniform of the F.S.U. Trade and Craft School in Staline. It was discovered that the children were being evacuated from as the German army neared the city. After walking nearly 60 kilometres they became utterly exhausted and had begged for transport. Their guardians promised to send trucks but instead a detachment of Russian political police (NKVD) arrived. Carrying machine-guns, they starting shooting the children in cold blood and throwing the bodies into the ravine. The Soviet soldiers counted the bodies of 370 slain children

THE PRISON MASSACRES
(June 22-29, 1941) During the week of 22/29 June, 1941, thousands of Ukrainian and Polish political prisoners were murdered in their cells by the Soviet NKVD (KGB). Soon after the German attack on the Soviet Union, the retreating Soviets had no time to care for their prisoners locked up in prisons in the Ukraine, so they were simply killed. In some cities the whole prison was set on fire and the helpless prisoners burned to death. In Lutsk, 2,800 out of the 4000 inmates in prison, were murdered. When the German 49th Army Corps occupied the Polish-Ukrainian city of Lvov, now Limberg, around 2,400 dead bodies were found by German troops in the NKVD prison. Some were killed by hand-grenades thrown into their cells, most were killed by a shot in the neck. In the cellars of the Brygidky prison, 423 bodies were recovered. Hundreds more were piled up in the courtyard. In the military prison at Samarstinov, which had been set on fire, 460 charred bodies were found, many showing signs of brutal torture. In the cellars, bodies were piled up layer upon layer almost to the ceiling. Owing to the stench of the decomposing corpses, the German commander of Lvov ordered all doors to the cellars bricked up after the bodies were covered with lime. Altogether, in the Ukraine, around 10,000 Ukrainian and Polish political prisoners were killed in their prisons. It is a sad fact that many members of the NKVD execution squads in the Ukraine, were Jewish collaborators. (A memorial plaque at the former headquarters of the NKVD/KGB in Simferpol, Ukraine, is engraved with the names of thirty NKVD agents who gave their lives in the Great Patriotic War (the Soviet name for World War II). The amazing thing is that all thirty names are Jewish! About half a million Jews served in the Red Army and approximately 200,000 were killed. A total of 160,000 Jewish soldiers were decorated with Soviet awards, 145 recieving the highest Soviet award, the 'Hero of the Soviet Union'. Two Jewish women were also awarded this honour. Many Soviet soldiers, after capture, joined the Waffen SS, ie. the 30th SS Division was composed of such troops.

Ever hear of Tulia?
There's a punch line, of course. Who doesn't know what it is?
No, I've never heard of Tulia. From my brief research, it seems there was a gross miscarriage of justice there. But one case, however extreme, does not mean that such incidents are common. Quite the contrary. If they were, you wouldn't have heard of Tulia either. And, from what I've read, everyone arrested that day has since been released.


Secondly, Communism is an economy!! Say it with me now!!! "E-C-O-N-O-M-Y!" It has to do with the realized system of human activities related to the production, distribution, exchange, and consumption of goods and services of a country or other area. It is the government/military that orders the killing of people.
Yes, communism is an economic system. BUT, it's an economic system that enslaves the entire population. It can work on a small scale where everyone agrees to live live peasants. But the only way it can work on a large scale is with the government forcing it down everyone's throats at the point of a gun and killing anyone not willing to go along. That's why it leads, inevitably, to horrendous atrocities.

Yes, communism is an economic system.

IF everyone worked for the same amounts and lived in the same types of homes, ate the same foods and generally lived as a single thinking society and no one DEVIATED from that then it would be a place where equality could have a chance. HOWEVER that isn't how Communism works or ever worked. The few people in charge make all the money and take advantages over everyone else. There are the greedy bastards that tell everyone to work hard for their Communist Party and great rewards will await them. That's the Party line, do as your told and don't ask questions. :(:rolleyes:

IF everyone worked for the same amounts and lived in the same types of homes, ate the same foods and generally lived as a single thinking society and no one DEVIATED from that then it would be a place where equality could have a chance. HOWEVER that isn't how Communism works or ever worked. The few people in charge make all the money and take advantages over everyone else. There are the greedy bastards that tell everyone to work hard for their Communist Party and great rewards will await them. That's the Party line, do as your told and don't ask questions. :(:rolleyes:
The problem is, we're all pretty much greedy bastards. That's why communism requires a totalitarian dictatorship to enforce the "equality". Yet, as you point out, the equality never seems to extend to the governing class. Some are more equal than others, you know?

Some are more equal than others, you know?

Yes, Congress in America has a double standard as well. They give themselves the best health care and great raises but allow for les than adequate help for the rest of the citizens.

Yes, Congress in America has a double standard as well. They give themselves the best health care and great raises but allow for les than adequate help for the rest of the citizens.

Yet another leftist proving my original point.
Like neo-Nazis, many radical leftists will try turning the tables (or switching subjects) when the subject of Communist mass human extermination is brought up.....

Makes you wonder how many radical leftists would be willing to turn their heads, or participate in another mass human extermination under Communist rule.

Makes you wonder how many radical leftists would be willing to turn their heads, or participate in another mass human extermination under Communist rule.
Not these (http://www.swp.org.uk/article_swp.php?article_id=535) raving commies for starters. You're tilting at windmills somewhat. You appear to be dangerously black and white in your thinking on this. Only raving maniacs condone oppression and slaughter. Where are all the pro-Soviet apologists you speak of? They appear to exist only in your head.

Not these (http://www.swp.org.uk/article_swp.php?article_id=535) raving commies for starters. You're tilting at windmills somewhat. You appear to be dangerously black and white in your thinking on this. Only raving maniacs condone oppression and slaughter. Where are all the pro-Soviet apologists you speak of? They appear to exist only in your head.

And just where was I "talking about pro-Soviet apologists" ? I wasn't talking about your link either, you pulled that one out of the hat.
This whole thread's been about the similarities between neo-Nazis and neo-Communists; both groups usually fit the 4 catagories I mentioned :
1. They deny it ever happened.
2. They say it was an "exaggeration" or a conspiracy theory.
3. They try turning the tables or changing the subject.
4. They say nothing at all.

And yet another that tries turning the tables (3).....


If most left-wingers had their way, the Communist mass murders of tens of millions of innocent civilians would never be heard of again.

Those who are ignorant of history, are condemned to repeat it......
Interesting how most public schools history courses DELIBERATELY leave out, or barely cover, the tens of millions of civilians torchered and killed under Communist governments. Yet they bash kids over the head about Nazi's holocaust. Brainwashing of children by public schools; don't want to teach them about Communist's even GREATER bloody past......

Let's go back to Step 0: define 'neo-Communist'. I'm not at all sure what it means.

Let's go back to Step 0: define 'neo-Communist'. I'm not at all sure what it means.

This article describes them pretty well :
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=AD729DCC-EF8C-4BEC-A8B0-B459457A615D

imo, neo-Communists are the "far left" mirror image of the "far right" neo-Nazis.

But my arguement applies to more than just neo-Communists, as some others on the political-left also fit the 4 catagories mentioned, dealing with their reaction to the Communist mass murders.

This article describes them pretty well :
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=AD729DCC-EF8C-4BEC-A8B0-B459457A615D

imo, neo-Communists are the "far left" mirror image of the "far right" neo-Nazis.

But my arguement applies to more than just neo-Communists, as some others on the political-left also fit the 4 catagories mentioned, dealing with their reaction to the Communist mass murders.
That article's long on rhetoric and short on fact but in it former Marxist Horowitz defines a 'neo-Communist' as:
a political radical and a determined opponent of America and its capitalist democracy.
It's a very vague definition. How, using this definition, are we to distinguish 'neo-Communists' from other radical leftists? I'm still confused. Can you tell me more?

As for these other lefty supporters of the Communist mass murders: can you give me some examples - ie, who has vocalised their support of them?

That article's long on rhetoric and short on fact but in it former Marxist Horowitz defines a 'neo-Communist' as:

It's a very vague definition. How, using this definition, are we to distinguish 'neo-Communists' from other radical leftists? I'm still confused. Can you tell me more?

As for these other lefty supporters of the Communist mass murders: can you give me some examples - ie, who has vocalised their support of them?

This is what the threads about, if it's over your head.... oh well.

When you bring up the topic of the Holocaust (of 6,000,000 jews) to neo-Nazis, they usually respond in 1 of 4 ways.
1. They deny it ever happened.
2. They say it was an "exaggeration" or a conspiracy theory.
3. They try turning the tables or changing the subject.
4. They say nothing at all.

The pure and simple fact is, they're evil people.

But what about neo-Communists ? (and many other leftists)
When you bring up the topic of nearly 100,000,000 civilians torchered and killed under Communist governments in the 20th century (not including deaths from wars, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bla...k_of_Communism), they react in the same way as the 4 catagories above.
Another excuse leftists make for this attrocity is that they were not "true perfect" Communist societies; well you could say that Germany wasn't a "true fascist" State too.....

Public schools barely touch (if even mention) the Communist mass killings, and Hollywood has put out how many films about this ? 1 ? 2 ?
And yet, the Communists killed several times more of their own civilians than the Nazis did !

Think it's fair to say leftists that fit those 4 catagories are as evil as neo-Nazis ?

You're repeating yourself now and you still haven't:

a. Told me what a 'neo-Communist' is to my satisfaction; or
b. Given me any concrete examples of all these lefties who, you say, are running around blithely denying all that murder and torcher. You just keep telling me they do. I want examples, otherwise I'll be forced to conclude that you're just... airing your own particular prejudices, basically.

Examples.

You're repeating yourself now and you still haven't:

a. Told me what a 'neo-Communist' is to my satisfaction; or
b. Given me any concrete examples of all these lefties who, you say, are running around blithely denying all that murder and torcher. You just keep telling me they do. I want examples, otherwise I'll be forced to conclude that you're just... airing your own particular prejudices, basically.

Examples.

I already told you what a neo-Communist is; if it's not good enough for you, oh well. :shrug:

Secondly, my original post already stated portions of our society that deliberately ignore/deny the huge murder counts of Communist governments.
Hollywood for one, which has produced hundreds of films about the Nazi Holocaust, and how many films about the LARGER Communist holocaust ?
Then there's America's public schools; do you know of any that give more weight in teaching about the Communist mass murders over the Nazi Holocaust ??? From k-12, not once did any of my history (or other) teachers talk about the mass murders of civilians under Communist governments; yet I don't know how many times I was informed about the Nazi Holocaust in history, English, and political science courses.
And I'm not the only person to notice this CLEAR bias in our public "education" system.

I have a feeling no matter what evidence that's put in front of you about modern day neo-Communist's denial of the greatest mass murders of the 20th
century will not satisfy you. Perhaps because you sympathize with them.

Like I said, this topic shows how radical some of the modern left are. Like neo-Nazis, they turn their heads, deny, and refute, that the Communists of the 20th century have even bloodier hands than the Nazis.....

Public schools barely touch (if even mention) the Communist mass killings, and Hollywood has put out how many films about this ? 1 ? 2 ? :shrug:
And yet, the Communists killed several times more of their own civilians than the Nazis did !

Think it's fair to say leftists that fit those 4 catagories are as evil as neo-Nazis ?

Do you think Hollywood and public schools deliberate avoid teaching and making films about the tens of millions killed under Communist governments is because they empathize with Communism ?

Do you think Hollywood and public schools deliberate avoid teaching and making films about the tens of millions killed under Communist governments is because they empathize with Communism ?
That's a very interesting question, and I've been giving it some thought, even before you re-asked it.

No, is my feeling. I don't think the silence is politically-inspired. After all, it would only take one right-wing director (there's surely one, yes?) to make that big international blockbuster. There have been several TV series made on Stalin - link (http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=stalin) - but no big Hollywood production as yet. I think this has more to do with aesthetic and practical issues than political ones - namely, we simply don't know enough about murder and repression in 'Communist' regimes to be able to Hollywood-ise it. Unlike Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia was very much closed to Western eyes. China and South Korea today remain so. Do you see the problem? We may know the dry, historical facts about what's taken place but you need more than these to make a successful Hollywood film. You need heart-rending personal stories - think Schindler's List - and, in the case of 'Communist' regimes, its these that are lacking (comparatively speaking - they are available if you look (http://www.memo.ru/eng/index.htm), but its hard to put flesh on even these without any personal acquaintance with the people involved). Similarly, no-one knows what conversations took place behind the closed doors of the Politburo or those of the NKVD as the killings gathered pace, so it's difficult to ascertain the personal motivations of the people responsible. I also think you have to add public indifference, perhaps even hostility, into the mix - how do you get the movie-going public of America to care about the death of a load of 'Commies'? There's broad, natural public sympathy for the victims of the Holocaust - but can anyone guarantee a similar amount of public sympathy for the victims of 'Communist' repression, and convince a movie studio to spend $100m on it? It's a big risk, commercially speaking.

But, you know, I hope I'm wrong - I'd love to see Spielberg do Stalin, with a script by Solzenitsyn (quickly now - he's not long for this world). I'm just not convinced about how filmable it would be, or about how many others would share my enthusiasm.

(Does anyone else have any thoughts about Hollywood's silence on this?).

Oh, one more thing - there haven't really been that many more films about the Holocaust either - have there? More than there have about events behind the Iron Curtain, sure, and there have certainly been plenty made about the Second World War... but not really that many about about the Nazi genocide specifically. So I don't think the imbalance is as great as you imply.

That's a very interesting question, and I've been giving it some thought, even before you re-asked it.

No, is my feeling. I don't think the silence is politically-inspired. After all, it would only take one right-wing director (there's surely one, yes?) to make that big international blockbuster. There have been several TV series made on Stalin - link (http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=stalin) - but no big Hollywood production as yet. I think this has more to do with aesthetic and practical issues than political ones - namely, we simply don't know enough about murder and repression in 'Communist' regimes to be able to Hollywood-ise it.

I disagree. Yes there is more filmed history from Nazi Germany, but since the 1990's, a lot more detailed information has come out on the crimes of the Communists in Russia. This particular book is the most detailed yet on the crimes committed under Communist goverments of Russia, China, etc. :
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/COUBLA.html
Hollywood can put out all kinds of films demonizing the U.S. military, government, CIA; many fictitious, some based on history, yet they can't put out any films about Communist Russia's genocide which was greater than Germany's ?!?!?
And just look at the Communist genocide in Cambodia in the 1970s under the Khemer Rouge : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot (only 30 years ago!)
Hollywood put out how many films about this ? 1 ! (The Killing Fields)


Sorry, considering how massive the killing, govt. controlled starving, and torcher was under Communist governments of Russia and China in the 20th century; I find it hard to believe they couldn't at least put out a few more films about these attrocities. I think it's because Hollywood and public schools simply don't want the public to know about the evils of Communism.

Whereas I think the greatest dissuading factor is that dead 'Commies' lack the crucial public sympathy vote, hence a large enough target audience.

P. S. Have you seen The Killing Fields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killing_Fields_%28film%29)? You should. Great film.

P. S. See here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/apr/12/olympicgames2008.china) for a Leftist critique of (cough) modern Communism in action.

Whereas I think the greatest dissuading factor is that dead 'Commies' lack the crucial public sympathy vote, hence a large enough target audience.

P. S. Have you seen The Killing Fields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killing_Fields_%28film%29)? You should. Great film.

P. S. See here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/apr/12/olympicgames2008.china) for a Leftist critique of (cough) modern Communism in action.

The reason the public doesn't have much sympathy for the victims of Communism in the 20th century is pretty simple, which I have already stated; movie makers in Hollywood and public school history teachers DELIBERATLY don't talk about it, even though it was far more extensive than Hitler's genocide. As a result, the public hasn't had it pounded in their head like Hitler's genocide. Another words, the public's been brainwashed by the left.

Need a list of some of those Hollywood films about the Nazi Holocaust ?
Here's a list of DOZENS :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Holocaust_films
And heck, this list even has them seperated by decades when the films were made there's so many; there must be over 100 films ! :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Holocaust_films
note of course, not all, but many of these films were made by Hollywood.

Now how many Hollywood films do we have so far depicting the evil Communists for their LARGER genocides in Russia, China, and elsewhere ?
1 ? 2 ?

Pleasssssssse. :rolleyes:
You know as well as anyone else, this is political bias by Hollywood and our public schools.

How many of those films have you heard of? Not many, I'll bet. How many have you seen. Less.

Because I know I haven't heard of many, and have seen less - and I'd say my knowledge of the medium is above average.

Notice how few have articles attached - I'd guess I'm not the only one who's unfamiliar with them.

As for schools - I know we covered Russia under Stalin quite extensively at my school. Maybe you should've gone to a better school?

But anyway: the reason there are more Holocaust films than Communist-themed ones is because material on the Holocaust has been in the public domain for a lot longer than that of Soviet regimes. So the media history of it is a lot longer, yes? And remember what I said about Communist-themed films not flying with Hollywood or the American public? Case in point:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Married_a_Communist_(film)

I Married a Communist is a 1949 film drama produced by RKO Radio Pictures. Due to audiences being turned off by the title, RKO released the film again as The Woman on Pier 13 and Beautiful But Dangerous.

...


RKO chief Howard Hughes offered the I Married a Communist script to directors as a test of their patriotism. Thirteen directors, starting with director Joseph Losey, turned down the film before it was finally made.
See the problem now? Rabid anti-communists like yourself simply won't cough up your hard-earned dollars to watch this kind of thing. There's your problem.

How many of those films have you heard of? Not many, I'll bet. How many have you seen. Less.

Because I know I haven't heard of many, and have seen less - and I'd say my knowledge of the medium is above average.

Notice how few have articles attached - I'd guess I'm not the only one who's unfamiliar with them.

As for schools - I know we covered Russia under Stalin quite extensively at my school. Maybe you should've gone to a better school?

But anyway: the reason there are more Holocaust films than Communist-themed ones is because material on the Holocaust has been in the public domain for a lot longer than that of Soviet regimes. So the media history of it is a lot longer, yes? And remember what I said about Communist-themed films not flying with Hollywood or the American public?
.

Actually, I've seen 8 of those Holocaust films.... I wasn't born in 1940 :rolleyes:
But I made my point, Hollywood has produced >100 films about the Holocaust, and virtually none about the larger mass killings under Communist governments.

You imply it's because the material about the Communist genocides is only recent ?
If that's true, how come they aren't pumping out films now about the Communists mass killings ? :rolleyes:
Look at all the Nazi Holocaust films put out since just the year 2000 :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Holocaust_films#2000s
And yet Hollywood won't put any juicy films about this GREATER "newly discovered" tragedy ? :rolleyes:

You can spin it any way you want, Hollywood, public schools, and many leftists deliberately turn a blind eye to this subject; even defend it at times (cough).....

Actually, I've seen 8 of those Holocaust films.... I wasn't born in 1940 :rolleyes:
But I made my point, Hollywood has produced >100 films about the Holocaust, and virtually none about the larger mass killings under Communist governments.

You imply it's because the material about the Communist genocides is only recent ?
If that's true, how come they aren't pumping out films now about the Communists mass killings ? :rolleyes:
Look at all the Nazi Holocaust films put out since just the year 2000 :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Holocaust_films#2000s
And yet Hollywood won't put any juicy films about this GREATER "newly discovered" tragedy ? :rolleyes:

You can spin it any way you want, Hollywood, public schools, and many leftists deliberately turn a blind eye to this subject; even defend it at times (cough).....

i have never heard of a leftist defend the commie genacides or turn a blind eye to it. you appear to be tilting and windmills.

i have never heard of a leftist defend the commie genacides or turn a blind eye to it. you appear to be tilting and windmills.

Hollywood and many public schools apparently have....


Those who are ignorant of history are condemned to repeat it..........

So why is it Hollywood and many public schools want people to be ignorant of the great mass Communist murders of the 20th century, that dwarfed the Nazi genocide ?

You can spin it any way you want, Hollywood, public schools, and many leftists deliberately turn a blind eye to this subject; even defend it at times (cough).....
Well, in my view Communism, as I understand it, has never existed as anything more than an abstract economic theory, so I'm not sure what there is to defend, but...
how come they aren't pumping out films now about the Communists mass killings ?
I don't know. I've speculated as to what might be the reasons why - relative lack of information; lack of a catchy 'personal' angle; studio and public antipathy; probable difficulty in obtaining funding, etc. These are only my best guesses but they make more sense to me than the idea that Hollywood is teeming with raving Reds. After all, as I've said, it would only take one top director with anti-communist sympathies to make that international anti-Communist blockbuster that we're both dying to see, so I just don't buy your argument.

But let's move on. Do you really not study Soviet Russia in American schools? Like I said, we covered it extensively, so you really should seek an alternative education.

But anyway: left-wing apologists for 'Communist' massacres. Liberal cheerleaders for Stalin and Pol Pot. Do you think you could find me some, please? We can read anything into the deafening silence of Hollywood and America's pro-Communist education system on the subject. They ain't talking, so we can only offer our guesses as to why. So, let's leave them behind - agree to disagree - and turn to the Left in general instead.

How about you find me something from some prominent Lefties who are unequivocally singing the praises of history's greatest 'Communist' tyrants, in order to support your repeated assertions that left-wingers support mass torcher and butchery? Hm? Back up these assertions with the appopriate documentary evidence, and we'll take it from there.

Hollywood and many public schools apparently have....


Those who are ignorant of history are condemned to repeat it..........

So why is it Hollywood and many public schools want people to be ignorant of the great mass Communist murders of the 20th century, that dwarfed the Nazi genocide ?

maybe because there are far more movies dealing with the evils of communism in general that nazism in general

Well, in my view Communism, as I understand it, has never existed as anything more than an abstract economic theory, so I'm not sure what there is to defend, but...


I don't think the Soviet's, Chinese, Cuba, etc... called themselves Communist for shit's and giggles. Nor do I think the rest of the world has called them Communist for a joke. Sure they weren't "perfect" Communist societies, no more than was Germany a "perfect" fascist state......

I could call myself The Last King of Scotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_King_of_Scotland_%28film%29). It doesn't mean that I am, now, does it?

And yet another person to prove my point that like neo-Nazis, left wing radicals and other idiots deny or downplay the truth.
I said nearly 100,000,000 innocent civilians, NOT 100,000,000.
And like I said, that estimate is deaths caused by Communist governments, NOT deaths due to war. You try to downplay and water it down by incorrectly stating they're also deaths caused by war...that is false.
If you don't believe that tens of millions (perhaps up to 100,000,000) innocent civilians were deliberately, knowingly, torchered and killed under Communist governments, here is a few references :

http://www.amazon.com/Communist-Genocide/lm/3DDUYHCHRYO1V
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gulag_camps
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left.html
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE2.HTM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mengistu_Haile_Mariam

It's intresting bringing up the topic of the great Communist 20th century mass murder, because you can find out just how radical many leftists are.
Like neo-Nazis, they try downplaying it, or denying it, or turning the tables.

You probably didn't read one thing I said. I stated that communism is an economy!! Not a form of government. It is the governments and the leaders that kill people, not the economies. It is completly idiotic to say that an economy killed 100,000,000 people. I would even say that the number is nothing more than a gross overestimate.

You probably didn't read one thing I said. I stated that communism is an economy!! Not a form of government. It is the governments and the leaders that kill people, not the economies. It is completly idiotic to say that an economy killed 100,000,000 people. I would even say that the number is nothing more than a gross overestimate.

Another excuse leftists make for this attrocity is that they were not "true perfect" Communist societies; well you could say that Germany wasn't a "true fascist" State too.....

It also sounds like you're trying to downplay it.

You probably didn't read one thing I said. I stated that communism is an economy!! Not a form of government. It is the governments and the leaders that kill people, not the economies. It is completly idiotic to say that an economy killed 100,000,000 people. I would even say that the number is nothing more than a gross overestimate.

socialism is an economic form but communism is a form of government