mutilated cattle anyone?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by Xevious, Aug 7, 2002.

  1. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

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    964
    FBI Declassified Documents: Cattle Mutilations

    On September 4th 1974, the FBI began reciveved a request for an FBI investigation from senator, Senator Carl T. Curtis from Nebraska. His request was one of many requests sent to the FBI since early in the 1970's from throught the nation, reguarding a new and disturbing phenomenon: Cattle Mutilations. Althought the FBI at first resisted the idea of investigating the phenomenon, reports of farmers arming themselves, and whispered rumors that these cattle mutilations may only be a forerunner to the mutilations of human beings spurred the FBI's attention. Eventually, the FBI agreed to open an investigation of the matter when 15 mutilations were discovered in New Mexico's Indian Country.

    "I must say that the material sent me indicates the existance of one of the strangest phenomena in my memory."
    - Griffen B. Bell, FBI Director

    On June 13, 1976 at approximetly 8PM, a cattle rancher named Manuel Gomez contacted Officer Gabriel Valdez of the New Mexico State Police about a cattle mutilation on his ranch, 13 miles West of Dulco. Valdez agreed to visit Gomez's ranch at 5AM the next morning to investigate. When he arrived, he noticed that the only vehicle tracks leading to the cow's remains were those of Mr. Gomez's vehicle. The remains were those of a three year old cow, which was white faced and laying on it's right side. It's left ear, toung, utter, and rectum had been removed with almost surgical precision, and their was no blood to be found anywhere around or inside the corpse. Evidence an aircraft of some unknown type had landed twice near the corpse was found in the form of tripodal landing marks.

    A yellow substance was found underneath the cow's tail, and and a sample was sent to the State Police Laboratory for analysis. That analysis was unable to determine the composition of the material. A second sample was sent to a private laboratory. The laboratory reported that the sample disappeared or disentigrated and no analysis could be done.

    Perhaps more striking, was that Mr. Gomez's tracks from the previous evenings visit had been disturbed by the aircraft landing marks, indicating that the object returned after Gomez discovered the corpse. The left ear had been present when he had originally called Valdez, and apparently been removed upon the 2nd visit of the aircraft. In addition, the Cow which had died had a 3 month old calf, which had not been seen since the cow was discovered.

    This incident is one of several which were chronicled in a number of FBI documents about the phenomenon, which were declassified on January 12, 1998. These documents are avilable from the FBI's Freedom of Information Act Server, at the following URL:

    http://foia.fbi.gov/

    This server contains documents not only on Cattle Mutilations, but on UFO's, and a number of other paranormal phenomenon. In addition to the FBI server, I have made these documents available on Limewire, or by requesting them from me on ICQ.
     
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  3. thed IT Gopher Registered Senior Member

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    Re: FBI Declassified Documents: Cattle Mutilations

    I have to ask, why is the absence of blood evidence that aircraft was involved?

    This also bolsters my deeply held belief that Bovines are the dominant life form on the planet. Why else would tripodally arranged Aliens have such an interest in a Cows anatomy. They could of course just buy a Vet's text book.

    Gary Larson was right.

    An utterl banal scientific statement and proof of nothing.

    So it had to be an alien spacecraft, right?

    What's with the ears? They are only nice after ten pints of beer and well salted.

    Wow, a missing calf absolutely verifies that some nefarious extra-terrestial plot is involved.

    And if they where investigated there must be some truth in it, right?
     
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  5. Mr. G reality.sys Valued Senior Member

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    5,191
    Didn't they make a movie about this incident?

    Yep. Plan 9 From Udder Space
     
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  7. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

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    964
    What makes it interesting it that the phenomenon keeps reoccuring, and nobody after 25 years who isn't a conspiracy theorist has a definitive answer for the phenomenon. This does not mean the conspiracy theorists and UFO enthusiasts are right about their belief, but they are the only people who offer any kind of explanation.

    "It's left ear, toung(sic), utter(sic), and rectum had been removed with almost surgical precision, and their was no blood to be found anywhere around or inside the corpse."

    "I have to ask, why is the absence of blood evidence that aircraft was involved?"

    The statement of the blood being removed had nothing to do with an aircraft being involved. I did not SAY it had anything to do it an aicraft being involved, it had to do with the cattle being mutilated. Clearly you didn't read my post, which shows your intention to post was to flame instead of discuss. I am unimpressed.

    "Why else would tripodally arranged Aliens have such an interest in a Cows anatomy. They could of course just buy a Vet's text book."

    It was the aicraft which had tripodal landing marks, not whatever people were involved. No mention was made of any tracks other than vehicle tracks. Once again you prove you didn't read my post.

    "And if they where investigated there must be some truth in it, right?"

    Your inability to distinguish were from where is not a promising sign, to say nothing about the fact that we are talking about an FBI report. The FBI did not report this incident as bogus, but as a real event, and a formal investigation carried out by the New Mexico State Police. This isn't some crackpot UFO enthusiast fabricating Majestic 12 documents, this is a documented incident. It's funny, for someone who has shown a real lack of credibility in this discussion that he would question the credibility of a New Mexico State Trooper and the FBI.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2002
  8. karen59 Registered Member

    Messages:
    4
    cattle mutilations

    Xevious,
    Why do you think that the cattle mutilaters have shifted their main location to Argentina instead of Colorado? Was the trail getting too hot?
     
  9. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    964
    It could have been something like that, Karen. I personally leave the question of alien involvement open, because their has yet to be DIRECT imperical data on that connection, and I don't want to rule anything out. However, based on what we know about the phenomenon, I can give you a few good guess leads:

    We use a good number of antibiotics and vaccinations on our cows, while South America may not be so regulated. It is possible that some new treatment for the US cows rendered them useless for whatever biological research is the purpose of the mutilations. A good question is to see what new Government regulations were passed reguarding treatments for cows. We should check with the USDA, and whatever farmer associations would be involved on the subject. You would have to backtrack to see what time frame the mutilations dropped off at, and then see what regulations were implemented during that period of time and see if their is a correlation.

    It is also entirely true the researchers of the phenomenon have been getting more and more data with each new mutilation. The trail getting "too hot" cannot be ruled out. But, I will say that that reason does not entirely jive with me: the phenomenon has been in existance for over 25 years, and it seems strange that they would stop so suddenly. Before we go down the conspiracy angle of "trail too hot", we need to ask "Has the cattle become unfit for whatever purpose the mutilations serve?"

    Consider too the lack of regulation in South America's cows. Even if American cows are not unfit at all, South American cows are a lot less pumped full of hormones and the like. Mayhaps they are "better fit".
     
  10. karen59 Registered Member

    Messages:
    4
    Xevious,
    That is a very good theory and one that I had not considered. I wonder what Christopher O'Brien would think about it. By the way, I don't believe that the mutilations have completely stopped in the 4 corners region but they have sharply fallen off in number. Sometimes I overdose on reading about this stuff. Have you been keeping up with the Argentina stories?
     
  11. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    964
    I've only recently gotten into the paranormal. It was a fascenation when I was younger, and now that I've gotten older and worked in Astronomy for some good amount of time I find my scientific training paying off in beginning to question things in new ways.

    I would appriciate some time to talk outside of the forums. I have ICQ, and I have E-Mail. Do send me a note, I'm not nearly as up on this as I used to be. Either way, discovering why our cows have been turned down in favor of South American cows will yield clues to the purpose of the mutilations.
     
  12. karen59 Registered Member

    Messages:
    4
    cattle mutilations

    Xevious,
    I like the bulletin board format the best but thanks for the invitation. "Mysterious Valley" and "Enter the Valley" are books written by Christopher O'Brien about the weird things that happen in the San Luis Valley of Colorado and surrounding areas. They are good books if you have the time. Is astronomy a hobby for you besides being something that you teach?
     
  13. Giskard brainious maximus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    198
    Cattle mutilations

    Since domestic cattle herds are a major source of the methane gas, the mutilations might be aliens trying to figure out how they produce it is such abundance or enviornmentalists trying to stop global warming.
     
  14. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    964
    Enviornmentalists are not a suspect for a major reason: If enviornmentalits were making a point, they would have at some point in the last 25 years made some kind of public notice of their intentions. Think of it: everybody who believes that strongly in their ideology to resort to such extreme tactics always gives a reason why. The Unibomber wrote his manifesto. When more extreme members of PETA vandolize fast food joints, they blatently leave their names and even take pictures of themselves at the scene of a crime to make public on their websites. The whole idea behing such extreme measures is to attact attention to one's cause.

    Whoever is responsible for the cattle mutilations does not want to be found, and their intentions to not be known. Animals tracks are very rare at cattle mutilations, as is any other kind of physical evidence for that matter. Their are no notes, no spraypainted names, no one comming foward to take responsibility.
     
  15. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,105
    I'm not going to assume an answer for suppose mutilations as there are only possible answers:

    1: Some poorer countries have a Blood problem, Their Health Services lack the required blood to fill the demand, so Blood could be aquired by people that sell it to bloodbanks from cattle.
    (One possible Cross-species disease source)

    2: There is the possibility that in the future a method of moving matter from one point to another can occur using particular methods of either beaming or shifting. Both methods could be used in Surgery but there would be the possibility of a yellow residue created from the Radio-decay of isatopes, largely ammonia based.

    I can't account for why this technique would be attempted on cattle and not already dead subjects, perhaps answers would be available in the future.

    3: People will always state aliens, but why would any species that would supposedly share the same type of intellect or more advanced intellect resort to mutilation? In our case it won't be so long until we start using computer generations and VR to produce a real looking creature to do virtual tests on.
     
  16. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    I have not dug into this topic in any great detail. So please excuse my ignorance.

    It occurs to me that by process of elimination, we would atleast focus in certain areas and then speculate what they might be. Since we are not producing any peer reviewed paper in Nature or whatever - we dont have to be limited by imagination under our present understanding of science extrapolated to say 50 years ahead.

    Now, if such activities do indeed take place they could be:

    1) Human in origin
    2) Nonhuman in origin

    We need to exhaust a reasonable amount of time on the human origin side including looking for clues from any official investigative body before we should jump into the other possibilities.

    In the nonhuman area, it is a can of worms since they could be simple to the most extraordinary such as, we may be entering a time period where other entities from other dimensions (or whatever) could be technologically evolving faster than we are. No one can guarantee that time flows in other dimensions the same as ours.

    If we find a gateway to another world or to our past say 3000 years, we will be super sneaky too, incase we screw up the timeline or run into some alien creature that shoot us down...or worse find out and follow us to our place....

    This is as plausible as any....
     
  17. MRC_Hans Skeptic Registered Senior Member

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    835
    Perhaps, since so much importance is attributed to the mere fact that the case "was investigated", some might also like to read the report and conclusions that were the results of the investigation:

    http://www.parascope.com/articles/0597/romindex.htm

    Its a rather long story, so for those who dont bother to read, allow me to summarize that the investigation finds no reason to assume any mystical causes of the findings of incomplete cattle carcasses. Predators, scavengers, decomposition, and human fantasy take care of it all.


    Hans
     
  18. Nannygoat Gruff Registered Senior Member

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    31
    How about a scavenging bird or a whole flock of birds?

    Birds go for the soft bits of dead animals (eyes, udder, rectum, tongue).
     
  19. karen59 Registered Member

    Messages:
    4
    So...

    How do birds do such precision cutting on the cattle? How do they totally drain the blood out of the animal? If it's an animal why aren't there any tracks? One case involved a bovine laying on water logged land. No tracks anywhere.
     
  20. MRC_Hans Skeptic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    835
    Read the report, the answers are there. But:

    Scavenger birds have very sharp beaks. Swelling of the carcass and drying of the wound edges make the cuts seem much more "surgical" than they really are.

    They dont. It coagulates within a few hours after death. Post-mortem wounds seldom bleed.

    Most of the carcasses are found on hard dry ground, but even in softer soil, birds and coyotes dont leave that many tracks. Have you seen a site? Do you absolutely trust the people reporting? People tend to see what they expect to see, even police officers.

    Take a walk in nature. On any few square-feet of ground around you, chances are that numerous living creatures, birds, coyotes, rats, cats, dogs, people, etc. etc. have passed within the last few days. How many tracks can you find?

    Hans
     
  21. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    964
    Not all the cattle are found on open ground. One was found 30 feet up in a tree.

    I do not think a scavenger is going to gut a corpse from the chest to the anus in a precise bee-line. A scavenger is not going to specifically take the left ear and not the right if they take any preference at all. A predator isn't going to be able to pick up a cattle and leave it in a tree, and for that matter, a farmer can't either.

    I've spent plenty of time in nature, and found plenty of dead animal corpses at my friends ranch here in Texas. Even in a given small area, tracks are noticeable if you take a good look, and tracks aren't the only signs - trampled vegetation does nicely also as a sign of a predator comming through the area. Most people though just don't have an eye for predator tracks. A State Police officer would, however and if he didn't find any, then their wouldn't be any. It should also be pointed out that some of the corpses have been found in fresh mud - an enviornment very keen to producing animal tracks.

    If it was scavengers, why did this phenomenon begin in the 1970's? Why suddenly? If it was natural, the phenomenon would have existed for some time. This fundamental question is VERY glaring at the face of the conclusion of "Natural Phenomenon". It should also be pointed out that the number of mutilations have dropped off very suddenly in recent years. The time reference is not typical for a natural phenomenon.

    Cattle mutilations cannot possibly be a natural phenomenon. The phenomenon did not begin until a given time. The phenomenon only occurs at night, and no one has been able to chatch any scavengers in the act. I think by now that if scavengers were involved, we would have caught them doing the same thing during the daytime. Of course, we haven't.

    Like in UFO sightings, critics question the sincerety of the cattle ranchers. Sure you can say "How do I know they just want attention?" but you have no evidence to say they are just after attention. If you had read that report you gave me yourself, you would also know that in at least one document event, the rancher was actually the Jicarilla Apache Tribal Chief of Police! Are you going to accuse him of being a dubious witness? The report does question one of the New Mexico State Police's officers. Perhaps he does so justifiably, but he's just one of dozens.

    The FBI stated on it's website:

    "These records contain accounts of animal mutilations which were discovered in various states during the late 1970's. Over the years, several theories have been expounded to explain the mutilations, including UFOs, satanic cults, pranksters, unknown government agencies, or natural predators. The FBI entered the case when 15 mutilations occurred in New Mexican Indian country. The investigation was negative with respect to identifying the individuals responsible."

    Clearly, the investigation shown here as "Operation Mutilation" is NOT the same investigation conducted by the FBI, which stated it drew no conclusions as to who was responsbile. Yet, the author of "Operation Mutilation" claimed he WAS an FBI investigator in Chapter 3 of the report.

    Either Operation Mutilation was conducted independently of the FBI , OR the FBI conducted two investigations into the phenomenon. The ladder is correct:

    "I was hired shortly afterwards to direct the investigation, which was to begin May 28, 1979, and run through May 27, 1980. The grant specified that the project was to employ a director with at least 20 years of top level investigative experience who was familiar with and had access to the best testing laboratories and who also possessed established communication skills with federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies."

    You evidently did not read into the FBI reports I mentioned, Hans nor were you entirely familiar with the work you were citing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2002
  22. John MacNeil Registered Senior Member

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    345
    The incidents of the cattle that were operated on with such precision and then placed strategically seem to follow a pattern that is becoming familiar. First cows were found singly with an eye or the lips removed and then the occurences graduated to multiple animals each with multiple operations of increasing complexity. It would appear that we are meant to study each occurrence and compile a body of knowledge. It seems more than coincidental that we perceive the same pattern of complex to increasingly complex in the placement and design of the crop circles.

    All through these processes, with the livestock operations and the crop pictographs, the leading scientific institutions on this planet are still clueless as to the most rudimentary of the procedures in either medium. To think that either the livestock operations or the crop pictographs are done as experiments to benefit whoever it is that is doing them is to approach both phenomena with a closed mind.
     
  23. MRC_Hans Skeptic Registered Senior Member

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    835
    Xevious:

    Now, I havent seen any of those animals, and, I assume, neither have you. So all I can do is look at the available documentation. The report I'm citing looks to me to be very thorough and it has the form you would expect from a professional investigation. I have, however, no guarantee that it is is not completely fake. I have simply decided to trust its credentials. And of course, on this basis, only the incidents covered by the report can be discussed.

    According to the report, it wasnt actually. Asked again, the farmer remembered that it was actually at the foot of the tree.

    Actually they weren't gutted in any bee-line. But scavengers go for the soft parts first. A cow lying on its side will be lying on one of its ears. Small scavengers cant lift the head to get at that ear. When some of the cadavers were turned over and left for a few days more, the other ear disappeared also. It seems that for anatomical reasons, bovines mostly lay themselves down on one side. I already mentioned about the tree.

    First of all, in all cases explored in the investigation, there WERE numerous traces of scavengers. It was shown that at least one State Police Officer was very biased; I've always marvelled at the fact that people keep talking about the government covering up, then in hte same breath seem to feel that a police officer must be a completely reliable witness. Mmmm, wasnt it one corpse, and hadnt it been raining?



    It didnt. But after those stories apeared in the media, quite natural findings were suddenly interpreted differently. We have numerous examples of this; we all tend to see want we expect to see. Cattle have dropped dead forever, and birds and coytes have been eating off the softest parts first forever, but once people read about these things in the papers, some start seing it differently. This also explains why it drops off now; the natural explanation has been brought to light, the media are not coevering it anymore. The pattern of cattle deaths being reported as mutilations show a close fit with the media coverage.

    Of course we have. Still according to the report I cite, in many of the cases various scavengers were seen on the carcasses or near them. But most scavengers are quite shy and well flee when people approach.

    On the credibility of farmers: Well, I dont think most of them intentionally reported wrong, they reported what they thought they saw, and made the conclusions in good faith, but being honest is not the same as being right.

    On credibility of sources: I have no better possibility to find out which sources are right than you. They could all be incorrect. I dont know what you mean by saying I have not studied the report I'm citing, but it doesnt matter, read it for yourself and make your own conclusions.

    John:

    I have to assume you are talking about extraterristials. We cannot know how an alien mind functions, but it does seem to be a very strange way to communicate. And certainly not a very successful one.

    I simply dont know what you mean by that. The livestock operations, as you call them have been investigated and attributed to natural causes (see above) and anyway there is nothing technically mysterious about them, we could easily imitate them, if we would.

    The same with crop patterns; there is no scientific mystery about them. It has been demonstrated repeatedly that humans are able to make them. Even hard-core crop circle experts accept that 80% are made by humans.

    If we have a phenomenon that we can explain, why do we need to attribute it to some exotic cause?

    Hans
     

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