muslims - SciForums.com

EmptyForceOfChi

06-08-07, 06:52 PM

So nice to have someone understand my burdens. *sighs contemplatively*

Anyway, why does one hear more about one than the other? That's the thing. Khomeni himself used to say that islam was about force, and that those who said otherwise were kidding themselves. I assume he just meant the political side; yet the attitudes filter down anyway. I agree anything could be violent - one might be a TinkyTarian, for all I know - but the extant cases don't involve the TeleTubbies.

you live in the west right? in a christian country? so who do you think is going to be bias towards who?

if you lived in a muslim country you might hear the opposite.

peace.

EmptyForceOfChi

06-08-07, 06:55 PM

Can you judge them by mutually supporting nationwide opinion polls?

Look, all muslims are certainly not aggressive, but there seems to be a core of fundamentalism there a mile wide and ten deep.

i come from east london, there are parts of east london with huge muslim communities. liek whitechappel and forest gate, i know plenty of muslims, there are extreamest and moderates, and the moderates outnumber the extream ten fold,

do you have personal contact with many muslims? or are you speaking from what you hear in the media?

peace.

GeoffP

06-08-07, 06:59 PM

you live in the west right? in a christian country? so who do you think is going to be bias towards who?

if you lived in a muslim country you might hear the opposite.

What; about the Manichaens and the Copts and other huddled religious minorities there? You must be kidding. What precisely are they going to do in a system where they're considered official second-class citizens, "protected" only so long as they keep quiet?

EmptyForceOfChi

06-08-07, 07:01 PM

there are thousands of muslims living in london, you cant judge them all for the actions of a few people.

you wouldent tolerate it if somebody was bieng racist towards all white people for the actions of george bush,

peace.

GeoffP

06-08-07, 07:01 PM

i come from east london, there are parts of east london with huge muslim communities. liek whitechappel and forest gate, i know plenty of muslims, there are extreamest and moderates, and the moderates outnumber the extream ten fold,

OK. And what is the general opinion there about an apostate? About the justification of religious violence? I don't know about "tenfold", although it might be true.

do you have personal contact with many muslims? or are you speaking from what you hear in the media?

I used to know a few; their fathers were fairly unimpressed with my atheism, though not all. As for the media: yes, I derive a lot of weight from it. If you want to generally discredit it, fine: then we ought to discredit all of it, and not just the parts we don't want to hear.

GeoffP

06-08-07, 07:03 PM

there are thousands of muslims living in london, you cant judge them all for the actions of a few people.

Again: I don't. But I do suspect that supremacist attitudes are fairly widespread in the islamic community. This could change. Or not.

you wouldent tolerate it if somebody was bieng racist towards all white people for the actions of george bush,

peace.

It depends: what are the attitudes of those who back them? What is their origin? I try to be as fair as I can given the facts and the arguments of my lessers. ;)

EmptyForceOfChi

06-08-07, 07:08 PM

OK. And what is the general opinion there about an apostate? About the justification of religious violence? I don't know about "tenfold", although it might be true.

I used to know a few; their fathers were fairly unimpressed with my atheism, though not all. As for the media: yes, I derive a lot of weight from it. If you want to generally discredit it, fine: then we ought to discredit all of it, and not just the parts we don't want to hear.

the general muslim opinion about religious violence upon innocent people is not tolerated by the moderate muslims. but jihad in self defence of an aggressor is tolerated by most, and i tolerate that view myself and im not muslim,

i agree that if you are bieng oppressed you should fight back, never let people oppress you or you are a slave,

the general muslim community is very open to debate about everything, you get some bad apples though who want to kill innocent people, and you cant blame a whole group for those bad seeds, we have bad seeds in the western world, but if we were all judged the same as them then it would not be good would it,

i was wrong before to imply or half imply that you should not listen to the media. but the western media supports the west, there are always 2 sides to every story, like when i read the newspaper i see double spreads describing 1 english or us trooper that died in iraq, then in small print it will say at the bottom of a page, 517 iraqi civilians died today,

peace.

GeoffP

06-08-07, 07:09 PM

Actually, I don't even like the title of this thread: it's too generalizing. Kind of grates to post in here.

That's as risky an argument as I make to Varda, cherishing my unburied head as I do.

EmptyForceOfChi

06-08-07, 07:11 PM

Again: I don't. But I do suspect that supremacist attitudes are fairly widespread in the islamic community. This could change. Or not.

It depends: what are the attitudes of those who back them? What is their origin? I try to be as fair as I can given the facts and the arguments of my lessers. ;)

the majotiyu of muslims living in the western world do not have that attitude though,

and i dont think it depends on anything, if somebody is bieng racist and judging a whole race for the actions of a few it is wrong. to generalise against a whole nation is not wise, because as you know each man woman and child is an individual, not a collective mind.

peace.

EmptyForceOfChi

06-08-07, 07:12 PM

Actually, I don't even like the title of this thread: it's too generalizing. Kind of grates to post in here.

That's as risky an argument as I make to Varda, cherishing my unburied head as I do.

the thread title is to catch your attention.

peace.

GeoffP

06-08-07, 07:13 PM

the general muslim opinion about religious violence upon innocent people is not tolerated by the moderate muslims. but jihad in self defence of an aggressor is tolerated by most, and i tolerate that view myself and im not muslim,

The question then becomes "what is aggression"? The Taliban describes it one way; the Turks another. All systems go by the same rules, but it gets pushed to extremes in the name of this religion in particular. Comics are aggression. Art is aggression. Freed women are aggression. Why so aggressive?

i agree that if you are bieng oppressed you should fight back, never let people oppress you or you are a slave,

But that's dhimmitude. That's sharia. And yet support for it is high. Mohammed said: "Oppression is worse than slaughter". And what does he mandate for unbelievers? Oppression. Is there a disjunct there?

the general muslim community is very open to debate about everything, you get some bad apples though who want to kill innocent people, and you cant blame a whole group for those bad seeds, we have bad seeds in the western world, but if we were all judged the same as them then it would not be good would it,

Maybe. Maybe not. It depends what one is culpable for, and what one has the capacity to change. There is no need whatsoever to oppress unbelievers; yet, there is support for it.

EmptyForceOfChi

06-08-07, 07:20 PM

aggression is attacking a muslim country and invading it.

support for the law is high yes, but as i said before not the main moderate muslim community wants muslim law in the west.

there is support from certain groups for oppression yes, but the moderate muslims again do not want to oppress everyone. you seem to be confusing moderate muslim opinion with that of extreamists alot.

peace.

Dark520

06-08-07, 07:57 PM

It depends on the individual. Some take insults to Christianity very seriously and some kill for it. The same goes for Islam. Fanaticism exists in both and elsewhere. You just hear about one more than the other.

You never hear about radical atheists though, do you? Fancy that...lol.

Anyway, about the video: I actually enjoyed it because it expressed what I think quite well.

About the stereotype: Anyone who is Muslim subscribes to the stereotype just because they believe in a book that says it's okay to kill innocent people, I don't care whether they're radical or not.

S.A.M.

06-08-07, 07:59 PM

About the stereotype: Anyone who is Muslim subscribes to the stereotype just because they believe in a book that says it's okay to kill innocent people, I don't care whether they're radical or not.

Fortunately your opinion is completely irrelevant.

Dark520

06-08-07, 08:02 PM

And so is yours, your point?

S.A.M.

06-08-07, 08:04 PM

And so is yours, your point?

Don't be silly, I'm a Muslim, my opinion counts.:D

Ghost_007

06-08-07, 08:12 PM

The guy is a raging lunatic. The video is just a big rant.

No substance – Generalisations, stupidity, either ignorant or deliberately misleading.

fishtail

06-08-07, 08:23 PM

Ghost_007

06-08-07, 08:44 PM

Not sure i would trust one yet, you know when i went to visit my (friend)
all the women had to go in the kitchen.
And i had a mate that went out with a muslim girl, she was staying near him
for collage, her home was 90 miles away in London, any way they got together, you know her family sent a gang to come get her back, they traced
her some how.

I'm a Muslim. :)

In Muslim homes and Asians in general, there is segregation between men and women.

And i had a mate that went out with a muslim girl, she was staying near him
for collage, her home was 90 miles away in London, any way they got together, you know her family sent a gang to come get her back, they traced
her some how.

That again is not just a Muslim thing. It happens in other religious communities as well. And it happens amongst Muslims too, a Muslim mate of mines was with another Muslim girl, her parents didn't want to know and he had a few close calls, he could have easily died. In my area one Muslim guy married a Sikh girl, her family sent a gang around his house, they nearly cut his head open.

It’s fucked up and very nasty. But to say its because of 'Islam' is just misleading. It’s got everything to do with pride and honour. You see these incidents happening in non-Islamic communities within Muslim countries, there was that recent case of that Yezidi woman being stoned to death.

S.A.M.

06-08-07, 08:45 PM

They happen in India too, all the time.

fishtail

06-08-07, 09:23 PM

I'm a Muslim. :)

In Muslim homes and Asians in general, there is segregation between men and women.

That again is not just a Muslim thing. It happens in other religious communities as well. And it happens amongst Muslims too, a Muslim mate of mines was with another Muslim girl, her parents didn't want to know and he had a few close calls, he could have easily died. In my area one Muslim guy married a Sikh girl, her family sent a gang around his house, they nearly cut his head open.

It’s fucked up and very nasty. But to say its because of 'Islam' is just misleading. It’s got everything to do with pride and honour. You see these incidents happening in non-Islamic communities within Muslim countries, there was that recent case of that Yezidi woman being stoned to death.

It seems a right mixed up mess, i am sure i can not see a way around all
the differences, but i am sure you would have to stop this stoning women
to death, that is just so alien to me.

John99

06-08-07, 09:53 PM

All this means is that we will never be able to walk around naked...

No i dont think we should but thats not the point, the point is that we cant. How smart are we:shrug: you tell me.

BenTheMan

06-08-07, 10:02 PM

I especially like the google ads beneath the video---I get ``Islam Ringtones''.

John99

06-08-07, 10:08 PM

I especially like the google ads beneath the video---I get ``Islam Ringtones''.

are they any good? i would get some but i'm afriad of my phone going off at the air port.

GeoffP

06-08-07, 10:15 PM

aggression is attacking a muslim country and invading it.

Aggression is also rigorous, ongoing xenophobia, to the point that religious freedom becomes a felony offense.

support for the law is high yes, but as i said before not the main moderate muslim community wants muslim law in the west.

No, merely a significant minority.

there is support from certain groups for oppression yes, but the moderate muslims again do not want to oppress everyone. you seem to be confusing moderate muslim opinion with that of extreamists alot.

Nope. Rather, I point out the extremists can use islamic jurisprudence to argue their points. Do the moderates? If not, fine; but it must be argued on other grounds.

Dark520

06-08-07, 10:16 PM

It’s fucked up and very nasty. But to say its because of 'Islam' is just misleading. It’s got everything to do with pride and honour. You see these incidents happening in non-Islamic communities within Muslim countries, there was that recent case of that Yezidi woman being stoned to death.

Well, although that may be true, but I think you would be hard-pressed to find another group that goes and blows themselves up, even though they kill many times their own people than the intended targets.

S.A.M.

06-08-07, 10:35 PM

Well, although that may be true, but I think you would be hard-pressed to find another group that goes and blows themselves up, even though they kill many times their own people than the intended targets.

Try the LTTE.:rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Tigers

Dark520

06-08-07, 10:43 PM

John99

06-08-07, 10:44 PM

And please, this time say something not so obscure.

Then this would no longer be PsyForums/

S.A.M.

06-09-07, 06:08 AM

Okay, fine, let me refine what I said above: I think you would be hard pressed to find another group, motivated by religion, that conducts terror attacks worldwide, which mainly involves blowing themselves up, and that just happens to have open hostilities with the US and many other countries. And please, this time say something not so obscure.

You're right, but not for the reasons you imagine.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jul2005/nf2005076_7420_db056.htm

http://www.amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html

Over the past two years, I have collected the first complete database of every suicide-terrorist attack around the world from 1980 to early 2004. This research is conducted not only in English but also in native-language sources—Arabic, Hebrew, Russian, and Tamil, and others—so that we can gather information not only from newspapers but also from products from the terrorist community. The terrorists are often quite proud of what they do in their local communities, and they produce albums and all kinds of other information that can be very helpful to understand suicide-terrorist attacks.

The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide-terrorist campaign—over 95 percent of all the incidents—has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw.

GeoffP

06-09-07, 10:29 AM

pinkiss

06-10-07, 05:00 PM

Muslims are okay if they stay in their land,but now fck them as they spread theyr shit ideas by killing everyone because of their religion.
Once i saw on TV a report about muslim who went to other country and suicided with bomb by killing over 10 civilians.And they showed his father who was crying from happines and saying that alah helped him to bypass security and make an attack.
After seeing this i would like that americans dropped atomic bomb for them,because if they dont care for others why we should care for them.

S.A.M.

06-10-07, 05:02 PM

Sam, how can one call the difference political when islamic extremism is, by charter, married to politics? To what do suicide terrorists - and other terrorists attacks - call when they carry out their attacks? "An equal parliamentary representation and fair land claims!"? No.

Read the book.

"The Logic of Suicide Terrorism" by Robert Pape

Its called assessing the enemy's weakness:

"After decades of struggle the Palestinians are convinced that they have finally discovered Israel's Achilles' heel. Ismail Haniya, another Hamas leader, was quoted in March of last year in The Washington Post as saying that Jews "love life more than any other people, and they prefer not to die." In contrast, suicide terrorists are often said to have gone to their deaths smiling. An Israeli policeman told me, "A suicide bomber goes on a bus and finds himself face-to-face with victims and he smiles and he activates the bomb—but we learned that only by asking people afterwards who survived." This is what is known in the Shia Islamic tradition as the bassamat al-farah, or "smile of joy"—prompted by one's impending martyrdom. It is just as prevalent among Sunni terrorists. (Indeed, the last will and testament of Mohammed Atta, the ringleader of the September 11 hijackers, and his "primer" for martyrs, The Sky Smiles, My Young Son, clearly evidence a belief in the joy of death.)

This perceived weakness of an ostensibly powerful society has given rise to what is known in the Middle East as the "spider-web theory," which originated within Hizbollah, the Lebanese Shia organization, following a struggle that ultimately compelled the Israel Defense Forces to withdraw from southern Lebanon in May of 2000. The term is said to have been coined by Hizbollah's secretary general, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, who described Israel as a still formidable military power whose civil society had become materialistic and lazy, its citizens self-satisfied, comfortable, and pampered to the point where they had gone soft. IDF Chief of Staff Moshe "Boogie" Ya'alon paraphrased Nasrallah for the Israeli public in an interview published in the newspaper Ha'aretz last August.

"The Israeli army is strong, Israel has technological superiority and is said to have strategic capabilities, but its citizens are unwilling any longer to sacrifice lives in order to defend their national interests and national goals. Therefore, Israel is a spider-web society: it looks strong from the outside, but touch it and it will fall apart."

Al Qaeda, of course, has made a similar assessment of America's vulnerability."

nietzschefan

06-10-07, 06:56 PM

Well that sure as fuck ain't working. 'mericans are all over the middle east right now...

S.A.M.

06-10-07, 06:58 PM

Well that sure as fuck ain't working. 'mericans are all over the middle east right now...

Sure but they are in the country where al-Qaeda did not have a base before.

nietzschefan

06-10-07, 07:00 PM

so?

Actually all of NATO is where their base was...

S.A.M.

06-10-07, 07:04 PM

so?

Actually all of NATO is where their base was...

Was? You mean the Afghans are now supporting NATO?
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=49&ItemID=13034

Afghanistan’s two foreign military missions: Nato's International Security Assistance Force (Isaf), with its 37,000 troops and the US-led Coalition: Operation Enduring Freedom are affectively losing their pseudo control over the country. Taliban is gaining strength and is regenerating, not because of their remarkable theological alternative to democracy, but precisely because all of the rosy promises made late 2001 and early 2002 yielded a most repressive regime, marred with corruption, insecurity, warlords, and incessant Coalition attacks on civilian localities throughout the country. When Afghans turn back into supporting the Taliban, one can only imagine how desperate they’ve become.

Varda

06-10-07, 07:26 PM

lol @ justifying murder because other people do it too

S.A.M.

06-10-07, 07:29 PM

lol @ justifying murder because other people do it too

Thats called the War on Terror.:p

nietzschefan

06-10-07, 07:30 PM

Was? You mean the Afghans are now supporting NATO?
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=49&ItemID=13034

Ok so where am I wrong? 9/11 Terrorism happened and they have westerners all over their "base".

Muslims are now persecuted all over the world more than ever and believe it or not some otherwise "i don't give a shit what happens, i'm asleep making money over here" westerners are very politically "aware" and watching the "jihad".

I think they need to go "opps" try something else to get everyone to worship Allah.

GeoffP

06-10-07, 09:45 PM

Read the book.

"The Logic of Suicide Terrorism" by Robert Pape

Its called assessing the enemy's weakness:

"After decades of struggle the Palestinians are convinced that they have finally discovered Israel's Achilles' heel. Ismail Haniya, another Hamas leader, was quoted in March of last year in The Washington Post as saying that Jews "love life more than any other people, and they prefer not to die." In contrast, suicide terrorists are often said to have gone to their deaths smiling. An Israeli policeman told me, "A suicide bomber goes on a bus and finds himself face-to-face with victims and he smiles and he activates the bomb—but we learned that only by asking people afterwards who survived." This is what is known in the Shia Islamic tradition as the bassamat al-farah, or "smile of joy"—prompted by one's impending martyrdom. It is just as prevalent among Sunni terrorists. (Indeed, the last will and testament of Mohammed Atta, the ringleader of the September 11 hijackers, and his "primer" for martyrs, The Sky Smiles, My Young Son, clearly evidence a belief in the joy of death.)

This perceived weakness of an ostensibly powerful society has given rise to what is known in the Middle East as the "spider-web theory," which originated within Hizbollah, the Lebanese Shia organization, following a struggle that ultimately compelled the Israel Defense Forces to withdraw from southern Lebanon in May of 2000. The term is said to have been coined by Hizbollah's secretary general, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, who described Israel as a still formidable military power whose civil society had become materialistic and lazy, its citizens self-satisfied, comfortable, and pampered to the point where they had gone soft. IDF Chief of Staff Moshe "Boogie" Ya'alon paraphrased Nasrallah for the Israeli public in an interview published in the newspaper Ha'aretz last August.

"The Israeli army is strong, Israel has technological superiority and is said to have strategic capabilities, but its citizens are unwilling any longer to sacrifice lives in order to defend their national interests and national goals. Therefore, Israel is a spider-web society: it looks strong from the outside, but touch it and it will fall apart."

Al Qaeda, of course, has made a similar assessment of America's vulnerability."

Okay, but this is confirming what I said previously: the movements described are religiously based. Bassamat al-farah, shaheed - these are the marks of religion.

GeoffP

06-10-07, 09:48 PM

Thats called the War on Terror.:p

It's one thing to feel mistakes have been made - and a man on my side, or at least in my direction, made one of the worst - Clinton and his fucking embargo - but do you feel that one cannot fight terror? What is the best response to terrorism? Compromise merely encourages radicals; critics claim fighting does too.

S.A.M.

06-10-07, 09:48 PM

15ofthe19

06-10-07, 09:59 PM

I don't agree with his taunting, but most of what he said is not up for debate.

Islam is pervaded by a sense of male insecurity.

Islam is a young religion, still struggling to find its place in the world.

Islam does justify violence.

Islam was created by an arab pedophile who was most likely mentally ill.

But other than that, I'm sure it's a good way to go.

S.A.M.

06-10-07, 10:01 PM

It's one thing to feel mistakes have been made - and a man on my side, or at least in my direction, made one of the worst - Clinton and his fucking embargo - but do you feel that one cannot fight terror? What is the best response to terrorism? Compromise merely encourages radicals; critics claim fighting does too.

The way the British do it is just fine; treat it for what it is- a crime. Thats how we do it in India too.

GeoffP

06-10-07, 10:10 PM

Only in your fantasy. Shahdat(martyrdom) is a loosely used term and is also used for patriots and soldiers, like Shahid Bhagat Singh (an atheist, btw). Bassamat-al-farah is merely Arabic for smile of joy. I believe it is associated with a tradition of martyrdom in their history (Shias)

That still supports what I'm saying; that it's beyond mere politics.

And as for treating islamofascism as a crime: yet, it's a movement. Was the IRA campaign merely a collection of criminals, or a movement? Does a movement deserve more attention than a mere crime? What about a system that encourages such behaviour?

S.A.M.

06-10-07, 10:16 PM

That still supports what I'm saying; that it's beyond mere politics.

And as for treating islamofascism as a crime: yet, it's a movement. Was the IRA campaign merely a collection of criminals, or a movement? Does a movement deserve more attention than a mere crime? What about a system that encourages such behaviour?

Sorry doesn't fly, you'd have to show a case where there was no political involvement for that to hold.

All the rest is just paranoia.

GeoffP

06-10-07, 10:17 PM

Sorry doesn't fly, you'd have to show a case where there was no political involvement for that to hold.

All the rest is just paranoia.

That's your imagination talking. There is no disjunct between the religious and the political in islam, as you know full well.

GeoffP

06-10-07, 10:19 PM

Anyway, to follow up: what are the specifics of the British vs. American prosecution of the "war on terror" or whatever you;d like to call it?

S.A.M.

06-10-07, 10:20 PM

That's your imagination talking. There is no disjunct between the religious and the political in islam, as you know full well.

Show me a case where there is no political involvement and I'll consider it, OR, show me a difference in the Muslim cases from the non-Muslim cases, as per Pape's data collected.

S.A.M.

06-10-07, 10:22 PM

Anyway, to follow up: what are the specifics of the British vs. American prosecution of the "war on terror" or whatever you;d like to call it?

The British investigate and catch the terrorists; the Americans are involved in it up to their eyes and make up stories to keep their interests going, every few months they foil an unfeasible terror attack to keep everyone satisfied that they are doing something about it. In terms of concrete REAL results, they have yet to show a SINGLE achievement. Don't you find it surprising that with all their involvement with the mujahideen (through 3 presidential terms), the CIA have NO clue where Osama is?:rolleyes:

GeoffP

06-10-07, 10:26 PM

Show me a case where there is no political involvement and I'll consider it, OR, show me a difference in the Muslim cases from the non-Muslim cases, as per Pape's data collected.

Well, there's killing apostates, of course, and the oppression of religious minorities. Doesn't fall directly under the suicide bombing area, but of course in dar-al-islam there ain't no need to go shaheed if you're just pushing around the natives. No international politics to it - which is what you're asking about - and yet whoop! there it is.

S.A.M.

06-10-07, 10:28 PM

Well, there's killing apostates, of course, and the oppression of religious minorities. Doesn't fall directly under the suicide bombing area, but of course in dar-al-islam there ain't no need to go shaheed if you're just pushing around the natives. No international politics to it - which is what you're asking about - and yet whoop! there it is.

You'll find that in India too with the killing of Dalits etc, so no I still disagree with you. One could also liken Israeli oppression of the Palestinians and American oppression of "illegal" immigrants (minimum wage, no health benefits, vigilante groups taking pot shots at the border, etc)

GeoffP

06-10-07, 10:29 PM

The British investigate and catch the terrorists; the Americans are involved in it up to their eyes and make up stories to keep their interests going, every few months they foil an unfeasible terror attack to keep everyone satisfied that they are doing something about it. In terms of concrete REAL results, they have yet to show a SINGLE achievement. Don't you find it surprising that with all their involvement with the mujahideen (through 3 presidential terms), the CIA have NO clue where Osama is?:rolleyes:

...this is all kind of hand-waving. Do you have anything a bit more concrete? I don't see a world of difference between the American and British approaches. How do you know the Americans are making up stories? Which ones? About what? How are the attacks unfeasible, when the plotters are so committed? I don't really find it surprising the Yanks can't find Osama; even spy satellites aren't magic, you know, no matter how many spy romance novels you read. I assume from the last you figure the Yanks and OBL are in cahoots, of course. Oy. :rolleyes:

S.A.M.

06-10-07, 10:31 PM

...this is all kind of hand-waving. Do you have anything a bit more concrete? I don't see a world of difference between the American and British approaches. How do you know the Americans are making up stories? Which ones? About what? How are the attacks unfeasible, when the plotters are so committed? I don't really find it surprising the Yanks can't find Osama; even spy satellites aren't magic, you know, no matter how many spy romance novels you read. I assume from the last you figure the Yanks and OBL are in cahoots, of course. Oy. :rolleyes:

I have yet to see any evidence that Osama was even responsible for 9/11. And the pattern is visible if you want to see it.

Here:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nora-ephron/how-to-foil-a-terrorist-p_b_50474.html

GeoffP

06-10-07, 10:36 PM

You'll find that in India too with the killing of Dalits etc, so no I still disagree with you. One could also liken Israeli oppression of the Palestinians and American oppression of "illegal" immigrants (minimum wage, no health benefits, vigilante groups taking pot shots at the border, etc)

Is there a religious Hindu principle that demands the death of apostates? Why would the case of the Dalits matter, vis-a-vis political islam? I don't recall saying that islam was necessarily an isolated case, or that it would matter if it were or weren't.

The Palestinian oppression, of course, has a mixture of political and religious roots; yet Jews aren't commanded to kill all non-Jews (or, if they are, they seem very remiss in doing so). The American thing again isn't founded in any religious principle, so your argument fails there too. What has either case to do with the killing of apostates and the oppression of religious minorities in otherwise demographically contiguous islamic states?

GeoffP

06-10-07, 10:39 PM

I have yet to see any evidence that Osama was even responsible for 9/11. And the pattern is visible if you want to see it.

Here:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nora-ephron/how-to-foil-a-terrorist-p_b_50474.html

Ahhhh, I was wondering about that one. I take it correctly then that you'd disagree with me no matter what I pointed out. :D

Honestly, Samwise: that would be one hell of a conspiracy. Best one yet; even better than the Israelis-stealing-Palestinian-kids'-eyes one.

S.A.M.

06-10-07, 10:47 PM

Ahhhh, I was wondering about that one. I take it correctly then that you'd disagree with me no matter what I pointed out. :D

Honestly, Samwise: that would be one hell of a conspiracy. Best one yet; even better than the Israelis-stealing-Palestinian-kids'-eyes one.

It does not have to be a conspiracy, merely bumbling and taking the easy way out. Like I said, seeing the big picture, I fail to see any evidence of a SINGLE accomplishment. Especially seen in the light of the British almost routine convictions sans Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo

S.A.M.

06-10-07, 10:53 PM

Is there a religious Hindu principle that demands the death of apostates? Why would the case of the Dalits matter, vis-a-vis political islam? I don't recall saying that islam was necessarily an isolated case, or that it would matter if it were or weren't.

The Palestinian oppression, of course, has a mixture of political and religious roots; yet Jews aren't commanded to kill all non-Jews (or, if they are, they seem very remiss in doing so). The American thing again isn't founded in any religious principle, so your argument fails there too. What has either case to do with the killing of apostates and the oppression of religious minorities in otherwise demographically contiguous islamic states?

So you don't see the Israel Palestine issue as a Jew vs Muslim (at least on the part of the Jews) or the American-illegal immigrant as a Protestant/Born Again vs Catholic, but the Muslims (in areas occupied or affected by Western intervention) MUST be driven by religion?

Sometimes I think you are too far in your own fantasy to even realise it yourself.

GeoffP

06-11-07, 12:29 AM

So you don't see the Israel Palestine issue as a Jew vs Muslim (at least on the part of the Jews)

I don't recall anything about Jewish theology that commands one to oppress or kill or convert outsiders. They are not, inherently, a prosetylizing or expansionistic group; or have not been so for 2000 years or so. There is nothing in the Torah about corruption and evil in islam, or even in Christianity; it would be hard to do, given that both come well after Judaism's foundation. If there were, again: they seem reluctant to pursue it. In the event they did, of course, or if they were now, I would consider it.

In contrast, islamic theology repeats again and again that the other "People of the Book" - those to whom they would be "protectors" (see Q 3: 28, 8: 73), in order that those People of the Book might "feel themselves oppressed" (Q 9: 29), which is actually "worse than slaughter" (Q 2: 191) - are unbelievers and worthy of hatred. Sura 9 indicates that such people should be offered the threefold choice: death, conversion, or "oppression" (punitive taxation and relegation to second-class citizen status), as above.

or the American-illegal immigrant as a Protestant/Born Again vs Catholic

Well, if you feel it is, then it should be no problem to isolate a widespread opposition to immigrating South/Central Americans on the basis of their being hideous, hideous papists. Using your famed "I was there so I should know" argumentative perspective, I am regularly in Southern California on business (flyovers, hate 'em) and I have never encountered opposition to the immigration issue on this perspective. Do the Minutemen carry the Flag of Orange? I must have missed that one.

but the Muslims (in areas occupied or affected by Western intervention) MUST be driven by religion?

No; only when they say they are. I would have thought this very fair, taking them at their word when they say they're there to enforce islamic law. Perhaps when something walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and admits itself a duck, it is NOT a duck.

Talk about fantasising.

GeoffP

06-11-07, 12:39 AM

Seriously: Protestant vs Catholic? You're aware that something like 25% of all Americans are Catholic? I thought you said you'd spent some time in the States.

vslayer

06-11-07, 02:11 AM

i doubt she spent all of that time in a church. of the 6 christians i know, i only know what branch of it that 2 of them belong to.

GeoffP

06-11-07, 02:15 AM

Probably not; but you'd have to be a bit dissociated to imagine that the War of Orange or something is going on in the States.

On a side-note, can we change threads? The title is a bit off-putting for me; sounds accusatory, not that I'm attacking anyone about that.

Peace.

Zakariya04

06-11-07, 04:45 AM

Dear Varda,

Thank you for starting this thread and dploying that video by that extremely funny man.

I have a few piojnts but to be honest we have debated them to death here so there is no point in re-posting, also i am slowly losing the will to live and am bored to tears with it all.

Muslims are okay if they stay in their land,but now fck them as they spread theyr shit ideas by killing everyone because of their religion.
Once i saw on TV a report about muslim who went to other country and suicided with bomb by killing over 10 civilians.And they showed his father who was crying from happines and saying that alah helped him to bypass security and make an attack.
After seeing this i would like that americans dropped atomic bomb for them,because if they dont care for others why we should care for them.

PinkArse - thank you for what you have posted above, what TV report did that come from? Any more specific details?

~~~~~~~~~~
Take it ez
zak

S.A.M.

06-11-07, 05:26 AM

No; only when they say they are. I would have thought this very fair, taking them at their word when they say they're there to enforce islamic law. Perhaps when something walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and admits itself a duck, it is NOT a duck.

Talk about fantasising.

As compared to... Western law?:rolleyes:

The same people who are hypocritical about their intentions and the death they inflict on their people. Now lets see why could that be?:confused:

reluctant to pursue it?

Is this what you call reluctance?

http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/israel-palestine%20map.jpg

And as for the illegal immigrants, why that has nothing to do with their being Catholic, since it is the non religious people who are taking pot shots at them.

Fraggle Rocker

06-11-07, 09:59 AM

And as for the illegal immigrants, why that has nothing to do with their being Catholic, since it is the non religious people who are taking pot shots at them.If you're talking about the USA, you're wrong. The leaders of the mine-the-border movement are fundamentalist, evangelical Protestants. Southern Baptists, Pentacostals, etc.

S.A.M.

06-11-07, 10:00 AM

If you're talking about the USA, you're wrong. The leaders of the mine-the-border movement are Religious Redneck Retards: fundamentalist, evangelical Protestants.

Sorry I forgot to put :D

I know they are Protestants.

The modern Minuteman is a racist white male living in the border states who hates everyone who is not a heterosexual, protestant, Caucasian male. Scientists call this incurable illness " Fear of a brown planet".

http://www.minutemanproject.com/

edit: its not even a new phenomenon

http://www.americanheritage.com/events/articles/web/20061104-know-nothing-nativism-american-party-immigration-catholicism.shtml

pinkiss

06-11-07, 10:47 AM

Google is your friend if you want to find what im speaking about :)
The fact is that muslim religion is fckd up.

S.A.M.

06-11-07, 10:49 AM

Google is your friend if you want to find what im speaking about :)
The fact is that muslim religion is fckd up.

An education is your friend if you want to know what I'm talking about.:)

GeoffP

06-11-07, 11:20 AM

As compared to... Western law?:rolleyes:

You'll forgive me: I assumed we were talking about the politics of islam here. I missed the cue that this was the time for tu quoque.

The same people who are hypocritical about their intentions and the death they inflict on their people. Now lets see why could that be?:confused:

Alright, without generalising, which intentions and which death is this?

reluctant to pursue it?

Is this what you call reluctance?

http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/israel-palestine%20map.jpg

Is it for religious reasons that this is done? Or actually political ones? For example, what would have happened there had the war in 1948 not been pursued? Or the one in 1967? 1973? Or the violence prior to all that, in 1919, and 1920, and 1921 and, heck, every year up to 1948?

And as for the illegal immigrants, why that has nothing to do with their being Catholic, since it is the non religious people who are taking pot shots at them.

Thankyou for acknowledging this; I agree that the issue is not religious.

Not all such conflicts are free from religious influences, of course:

http://www.abcmoney.co.uk/news/11200785567.htm

Anyway, as a sideline to the religious-vs-political nature of islamic terrorism, I'm sure CAIR will be right along to denounce this individual for his desecration of the Quran...sometime. Maybe when their own trial for support of terrorism is concluded. Is the impact of damning statements lessened if they're submitted from jail?

S.A.M.

06-11-07, 11:31 AM

You'll forgive me: I assumed we were talking about the politics of islam here. I missed the cue that this was the time for tu quoque.

Hiding behind words, Geoff?

Alright, without generalising, which intentions and which death is this?

Which terrorist are you referring to ?

There is hardly only one US/Western intervention here.

Is it for religious reasons that this is done? Or actually political ones? For example, what would have happened there had the war in 1948 not been pursued? Or the one in 1967? 1973? Or the violence prior to all that, in 1919, and 1920, and 1921 and, heck, every year up to 1948?

You mean the Jews were transported to Israel because there was no place in the West? Damn, and I thought the entire ethnic cleansing of Palestine was a religious issue. If it were the other way around, I'm sure you would have no difficulty seeing that.

Thankyou for acknowledging this; I agree that the issue is not religious.

Not all such conflicts are free from religious influences, of course:

http://www.abcmoney.co.uk/news/11200785567.htm

As I told Fraggle I forgot the sarcasm tags.

Anyway, as a sideline to the religious-vs-political nature of islamic terrorism, I'm sure CAIR will be right along to denounce this individual for his desecration of the Quran...sometime. Maybe when their own trial for support of terrorism is concluded. Is the impact of damning statements lessened if they're submitted from jail?

Don't be silly they are fighting the war on terror against the anti-Muslims, everyone has their own interpretations and goals.

GeoffP

06-11-07, 11:38 AM

Hiding behind words, Geoff?

? :confused: No. I was merely asking which debate it is we're supposed to be doing. If you can't do the one and would rather do the other, be my guest, but at least tell me what your preference is.

Which terrorist are you referring to ?

There is hardly only one US/Western intervention here.

All right, you're going to have to specify what it is you're talking about, because I have no idea what the above is supposed to refer to.

You mean the Jews were transported to Israel because there was no place in the West? Damn, and I thought the entire ethnic cleansing of Palestine was a religious issue. If it were the other way around, I'm sure you would have no difficulty seeing that.

What I see is that some Jews moved to the Middle East, didn't want to be treated as second-class citizens (and, incidentally, how are you going to reconcile that with your eminent desire to join the three Abrahamic religions, anyway? do some get to join the collective as slaves, then?), and refused to accept it.

As I told Fraggle I forgot the sarcasm tags.

I didn't. :D They weren't really needed.

Don't be silly they are fighting the war on terror against the US, everyone has their own interpretations.

I see. Is oppressing the other Abrahamic types a necessary part of this war, then?

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070610/NEWS07/706100608/1007/NEWS05

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\06\11\story_11-6-2007_pg13_4

http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=lead&lang=en&length=long&idelement=4902&backpage=

I was under the impression that, having submitted (Q 9:29), religious minorities were basically "good to go" with their "protectors". Yet it doesn't seem so. So what's motivating this last bit of homicidal "resentment" or "outrage" on the part of their conationals? The way they part their hair? No beards? Obstinate refusal to accept...something or other? Can't remember. Anyway, I'm certain it couldn't be religious.

GeoffP

06-11-07, 11:38 AM

Oops.

I forgot my "sarc" tags. My bad.

S.A.M.

06-11-07, 11:40 AM

? :confused: No. I was merely asking which debate it is we're supposed to be doing. If you can't do the one and would rather do the other, be my guest, but at least tell me what your preference is.

All right, you're going to have to specify what it is you're talking about, because I have no idea what the above is supposed to refer to.

Sorry I'm not spoon feeding you; go back and read the posts.

What I see is that some Jews moved to the Middle East, didn't want to be treated as second-class citizens (and, incidentally, how are you going to reconcile that with your eminent desire to join the three Abrahamic religions, anyway? do some get to join the collective as slaves, then?), and refused to accept it.

I would hardly call carving up a separate country as some Jews moved to the Middle East. You're being deliberately obtuse.

I didn't. :D They weren't really needed.

Apparently, since you only look at what fits into your entrenched views.

I see. Is oppressing the other Abrahamic types a necessary part of this war, then?

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070610/NEWS07/706100608/1007/NEWS05

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\06\11\story_11-6-2007_pg13_4

http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=lead&lang=en&length=long&idelement=4902&backpage=

I was under the impression that, having submitted (Q 9:29), religious minorities were basically "good to go" with their "protectors". Yet it doesn't seem so. So what's motivating this last bit of homicidal "resentment" or "outrage" on the part of their conationals? The way they part their hair? No beards? Obstinate refusal to accept...something or other? Can't remember. Anyway, I'm certain it couldn't be religious.

Uh please, Americans crap over electronic cartoon ads.
And I would like to see the reaction to Muslims in the country if there was a couple more suicide attacks if you can compare that to a wholesale invasion of a country (like Iraq).

GeoffP

06-11-07, 11:48 AM

Sorry I'm not spoon feeding you; go back and read the posts.

Hey, your argument. I'm just trying to help.

I would hardly call carving up a separate country as some Jews moved to the Middle East. You're being deliberately obtuse.

Not at all. Some Jews went there, and bought land. They were frequently restricted from going, and the populations of both Arabs and Jews increased while they were there. Now maybe the rules were that Jews weren't supposed to own land - I know they can't in Jordan, for instance; a few other places in the area as well, I imagine - and maybe they were supposed to just accept being second-class citizens, as mountainhare has opined. Maybe they should have known better. But who exactly were they hurting by buying land? What were they harming by being there? The Arab character of the place? Come on. Yet they were attacked and harassed on the basis, seemingly, of a religious culture that places its own supremacy over everywhere its foot treads. Maybe that's a misinterpretation too, but then again maybe someone should have told the Grand Mufti that.

Apparently, since you only look at what fits into your entrenched views.

Oh, Sam: enough with the anger. Come on. I can't argue with you without being biased? Enough. I look at your evidence, so enough with that.

Uh please, Americans crap over electronic cartoon ads.

Then immediately go out and attack embassies from islamic countries. And muslims, right in the street.

...wait. They don't? Well that's odd. Are they reading the same Quran as everyone else?

S.A.M.

06-11-07, 11:52 AM

Hey, your argument. I'm just trying to help.

Not at all. Some Jews went there, and bought land. They were frequently restricted from going, and the populations of both Arabs and Jews increased while they were there. Now maybe the rules were that Jews weren't supposed to own land - I know they can't in Jordan, for instance; a few other places in the area as well, I imagine - and maybe they were supposed to just accept being second-class citizens, as mountainhare has opined. Maybe they should have known better. But who exactly were they hurting by buying land? What were they harming by being there? The Arab character of the place? Come on. Yet they were attacked and harassed on the basis, seemingly, of a religious culture that places its own supremacy over everywhere its foot treads. Maybe that's a misinterpretation too, but then again maybe someone should have told the Grand Mufti that.

Thats not true. You refuse to read sources based on Israeli war documents and persist in harboring your own version of what happened. I will not debate on this with you anymore. Clearly, facts hold no significance for you.

Oh, Sam: enough with the anger. Come on. I can't argue with you without being biased? Enough. I look at your evidence, so enough with that.

See previous

Then immediately go out and attack embassies from islamic countries. And muslims, right in the street.

...wait. They don't? Well that's odd. Are they reading the same Quran as everyone else?

Where are the wars right now? Who supports the Sauds and Pakistanis? Who put the Mujahideens in place of the communists? How did Hamas come about?
Sad to say, I'm dissapointed in you

GeoffP

06-11-07, 12:05 PM

Thats not true.

Regrets to tell you, but it is. I read other people's sources, and I think people know that.

You refuse to read sources based on Israeli war documents and persist in harboring your own version of what happened. I will not debate on this with you anymore. Clearly, facts hold no significance for you.

Rather, your mind is made up, and nothing anyone says will change it for you. The oppression of religious minorities, of women, of apostates, of everything save what good allah prefers, is nothing to you.

Where are the wars right now? Who supports the Sauds and Pakistanis? Who put the Mujahideens in place of the communists? How did Hamas come about?

Dig deeper, grasshopper, if you dare. I don't support the US's support of the House of Saud, or Pakistan, or much else in the same genre, for reasons of human rights. Yet, it isn't tied to the oppression of minorities in dar-al-islam, or of the religious justification for same.

Sad to say, I'm dissapointed in you

Not sad to say, I couldn't care less.