http://www.nis.gov.jo/rcja/Special/aqsa.html

Good link , especially as it deals with Solomons temple . Its known that it is wanted for rebuild , although it tends toward toomuch of a conspiracy thing , but no doubt there is motivation and they have interest in misrepresenting Al Aqsa .

PS : Interesting how they adore Solomon , yets the people he formed with Queen Sheba of Ethiopia that are todays Falasha Jews , arent that welcome in the wonderfull Yeretz Yisrael .

Yes thats correct , Hebrew Israelites are discriminated against in Zionist Israel . They have to convert to the european religious cults of Ashkenazim or Sephardim otherwise they are not considered Jewish and have no business there according to the wonderfull Zionist state of mr Arik Scheinerman a true and original Hebrew Israelite ....
:rolleyes:

Actually that's not true, AM. Once again, you present false, exaggerated information in the hopes of validating your argument. The Ethiopian Jews are very welcome by Israels standards. Remember Entebee? Heck, the ark of the covenenant is supposedly burried somewhere in Ethiopa. They are an admired people...Or so I've seen.

Some of the 'holochot' Jews discriminate against the Falasha, but it's plain stupidity. They are biblical Jews. And a side of Judaism that I really admire.

Allahs math:

PS : Interesting how they adore Solomon , yets the people he formed with Queen Sheba of Ethiopia that are todays Falasha


yup, sadly I think it boils down to that most primitive of discrimination, ie: against blacks. Remember Hazrat Billal?

i am not sure i understand. what "false and exaggerated " info has allah presented?

he said....."arent that welcome in the wonderfull Yeretz Yisrael."

this means reservations existed despite the welcome (they were black after all. i do not find it hard to believe). he asserts discrimination exists. so do you

They are an admired people...Or so I've seen.

or so i seen? you are not sure huh?

Trouble in Paradise

The effort that had begun in 1984 was finally completed in mid-1991. Nearly the entire Falasha community of Ethiopia now had a new home in Israel. But there was trouble in paradise. While from a distance many Israelis regarded the Falashas as a romanticized ancient tribe, up close they seemed to see only the color of their skin. Discrimination against the black Jews became widespread, tainting even government policies toward the new immigrants. They were settled in isolated “development towns” in the Negev desert and Galilee, and soon became afflicted by unemployment, drug problems and crime. One American Jewish activist in Israel noted: “The fact is that there is a color problem, in the sense that a lot of Israelis don’t really identify with these people.”11

A 1995 government education study reported that many Ethiopian elementary schoolchildren were needlessly channeled into classes for the learning-disabled, and teenage Ethiopians were largely schooled in subjects that prepared them for Israel’s least rewarding jobs. A majority of the Ethiopians remained housed in the grim trailer parks in the distant development towns, where some of them had been living since the mid-1980s. Moreover, their religious leaders still were not recognized by Israel’s government-sponsored rabbinate, implying that theirs was a less pure form of Judaism than that of other Israelis.12

Pent-up resentment in the Falasha community finally erupted in fury on Jan. 24, 1996, when it was learned that Falasha donations to Israel’s national blood bank were routinely thrown away. They were not pacified by the excuse given. Zvi Ben Yishai, chairman of the National AIDS Committee, said it was because the Falashas had fifty times the incidence of AIDS as other Israelis. He said the practice was “justified for the protection of the public.”

However, Yoram Lass, a member of parliament and former director general of the health ministry, described the policy as “racist and unfounded scientifically.” He said Americans had a much higher AIDS rate but Israel would never consider banning blood donations byAmerican Jews.

The revelation horrified the Falashas, who now number around 50,000. Adiso Masala, head of the Organization of Ethiopian Immigrants, said: “This is pure racism. We are blood brothers with the Israelis but our blood is thrown in the garbage because we are black.” Benny Mekonnen, 30, a reserve army major, said he was so mad that he was going to leave Israel: “I gave blood every year, once a year. They took our blood and threw it in the garbage…I am very, very angry.”13

On Jan. 28, some 10,000 Falashas protested at the prime minister’s office in Jerusalem and were brutally met by riot police who used batons, rubber bullets, water cannon and tear gas against them. The Falashas carried placards reading “Apartheid in Israel” and “Our blood is as red as yours and we are just as Jewish as you are.”14 Prime Minister Shimon Peres promised to investigate their complaints. But on the basis of their experience during more than a decade in Israel, the Falashas seem doomed to a fate of suffering the same isolation in Israel that they fled in Ethiopia.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0596/9605036.htm

The Black Jews, known as Falasha, suffer racism and discrimination: the Chief Rabbinate does not fully recognise them as having Jewish status.

why?(full jewish status)

..nice.

Elbaz

Once again, you present false, exaggerated information


1)U shouldnt use such rhetorical terms as "once again" when you are only arguing this specific point
2)U shold prove why it is accurat NOW*


in the hopes of validating your argument.


What argument are we talking about ? No worries the Falasha question has little to do with the main issues of Israel . It merely crossed my mind as I read about Salomons temple , it reminded me of Sheba and of the Falasha .


The Ethiopian Jews are very welcome by Israels standards


*Israels standards are the problem here .

Processing in Israel for the aliyah of the lower Quara Jews has been extremely slow, prompting charges of bureaucratic obstruction and discrimination by Israeli authorities against Ethiopians

The Falas Mora are recognized by many Jewish religious authorities as Jews, but the Israeli government denies their claims and opposes their immigration to Israel. However, in 1997 and 1998, the Israelis relented by permitting the immigration of almost 5,000 Falas Mora, most of whom had been left behind - literally left standing at the Israeli Embassy gate - when the Operation Solomon airlift concluded. We were told that almost 40 percent of these people qualified to go to Israel under the Law of Return.

There are now an additional estimated 15,000 Falas Mora, primarily in the cities of Addis Ababa and Gonder, who desire immigration to Israel. Many of them allege they have been forced from their village homes by persecution and fled to the cities. The government of Israel denies any responsibility for these Falas Mora, although many of them have close relatives living in Israel and might qualify for aliyah to Israel under the Law of Return. Israel has also discouraged Jewish humanitarian organizations from providing aid to the Falas Mora and the Quarans.


http://www.studentstruggle.org/present.html

http://israelimages.com/small/14538.gif
Ethiopian Jews Demonstrating For Falashmura Family Reunion Immigration Permits In 1992

Elbaz , I suggest you do some research before you accuse me of something , this : They are an admired people...Or so I've seen. , doesnt indicate such .


they were black after all. i do not find it hard to believe


On a political level nothing is , but even as far as the peoples go , as plenty Jews in Israel come from Eastern Euro , a region with a relative low contact with darker-skinned peoples other than gypsies , its not surprising that interaction wont be that smooth just because they are of Jewish faith .

Remember Hazrat Billal?

Nope, never heard of it. For that reason, Entebee is not lessened in my mind.

Spookz
i am not sure i understand. what "false and exaggerated " info has allah presented?

All Jews are welcome in Israel. No buts. The Ethiopian's are far more religious than most Russian Jews. And so, dispersed cases of rascism are false or exaggerated claims.

or so i seen? you are not sure huh?

No, I'm confident that more sure than anybody posting in this thread. You've all read stories on the internet. I've been to Israel (twice) and have seen it with my own eyes - as well as read various stories. These claims are often exagerated, falsified and magnified by the media.

the Chief Rabbinate does not fully recognise them as having Jewish status.

Who cares about the Rabbinate? Really. Like I said, many of the 'holochot' Jews discriminate against other Jews, but this is contradictory to the religion, and therefore invalid. Lots of Israeli's accept the Falasha with open arms. Self-criticism is a past time in Israel. And you should know that many policies of the rabbinate are challenged are schmoozed over till the wee hours of the morning. Rabbi's, believe it or not, have more intense and heated arguments than you or I on these issues :confused:

AM,

1)U shouldnt use such rhetorical terms as "once again" when you are only arguing this specific point
2)U shold prove why it is accurat NOW*

Why shouldn't I? You echo the same anti-Semetic, (or zionist as you so conveniently call it..:rolleyes:, ) contrived arguments about how bad America is, etc.I think you know what I speak of. When somebody posts with the redundancy of your argument, I am entitled to using rhetorical terms. It's for this reason that I rarely post in WE&P, anymore. It's the same old thing, over and over again. And the brunt of the argument is usually carried out arguing over small, insignificant details like we are right now.

Yes thats correct , Hebrew Israelites are discriminated against in Zionist Israel . They have to convert to the european religious cults of Ashkenazim or Sephardim otherwise they are not considered Jewish and have no business there according to the wonderfull Zionist state of mr Arik Scheinerman a true and original Hebrew Israelite ....

You see...
It's a different topic all together. Yet you still manage to poop out bitter sentiments against the Israeli's. Of course, I am not saying any nation is or can be perfect* Expecting someones argument to be perfect, or otherwise invalid against your argument says more about your arrogance than the legitamicy of an Israeli state.

Though, it probably makes your argument easier since the other person has to spend precious minutes typing out why you are wrong. Or, for that matter, anything else regarding the importance of small, yet useless tidbits of information. It all boils down to the fact that the whole of your argument is based around 'anti-'. You're not willing to admit that anything about Israel is alright - making you an outright hypocrite.

I did not bring up this falasha argument. But it's interesting, I've been to Adis Abbaba 4 or 5 times. Very nice people. Just like any other place in Israel. Would it surprise me if they wanted to bring in more of their own? Probably not...

All I know is that things are a lot worse back in Ethiopa, and that Israel, as well as Canada and any other free nations has policies surrounding who can and cannot enter. THings like disease. Remember - cholera may be Jewish, but he is not welcome in my bed. Israeli's have an obligation to not endanger themselves.

Elbaz , I suggest you do some research before you accuse me of something , this : They are an admired people...Or so I've seen. , doesnt indicate such .

Would you still say the same thing? I think my own eyes are a better source than most propoganda...:m: Besides, I've read a lot material that anyone else has. And I trust my judgement.

On a political level nothing is , but even as far as the peoples go , as plenty Jews in Israel come from Eastern Euro , a region with a relative low contact with darker-skinned peoples other than gypsies , its not surprising that interaction wont be that smooth just because they are of Jewish faith .

Hehe...
Get a few Israeli's and here and see what they have to say. There are LOTS of black people in Israel. Especially compared to a place like Calgary when discrimination against Africans is practically unheard of. European Jews are more diverse than you'd like to think.

I won't deny that racism exists. It does everywhere. Saying that it is a major problem is grossly exaggerating the truth. My hope is that an actual Israeli resident will drop in to clarify this for the both of us.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember Hazrat Billal?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Nope, never heard of it. For that reason, Entebee is not lessened in my mind.

first off, I wasn't talking to you,...ok?

secondly, not it buthim Hazrat Billal was a person...ok?

OK, mein captain!

I thought you were making direct reference to this statement:

Remember Entebee?

I'll take better care before possibly angering you next time...

Very informative thread, good to see Elbaz doing a more eleborating motivational post than throwing one-liner punches at AM as well!


If I am to believe this site:

http://www.adl.org/Israel/Conversion/testing-principles.asp

The trouble centers around the argument between Reformed jews and Orthodox jews, the latter not willing to accept others as jews if they do not practice the orthodox version of judaism. The orthodox jews still today are an important factor in Israel and since they are very strict about their bible interpretations (wich contains a roadmap that does not include palestines) , I suspect that the conflict will continu until more liberal and less fundamentalist religious jews/arabs finally get the upperhand.

And about racism, well that seems to be a universal thing, human nature. But I bet the orthodox parties strive very hard to have their footholds in institutes like immigration services , blood-donation banks and court of laws, cause they can all be used to keep the country ultrakosher.

yup, gotta hand it to the kid, takes guts to take on AM:D

Originally posted by Vortexx
Very informative thread, good to see Elbaz doing a more eleborating motivational post than throwing one-liner punches at AM as well!

i"ll echo that! excellent post. perhaps you need to hang around and take care of allah's ass!

:D

edit: wow, he is a kid

Elbaz :

Why shouldn't I?


They obviously do not work if the other person is aware of it .


You echo the same anti-Semetic, (or zionist as you so conveniently call it.., )contrived arguments about how bad America is, etc.


My arguments are not anti-semitic considering America nor any other place on the globe , not by your hijacked definition nor by its true meaning . If you call me an anti-semite (as you mean anti-jew) , please provide an argument on how I discriminate against Jews . The deal is "anti-semitic" is thrown around at convenience of the interest of peoples' . A Mizrahim Jew spoke the Arabic language and did not even know this lame and retarded German expression of intellectual Jews to ridicule themselves into Israel , before the colonists from Europe came along , I bet they dont even have a word for it in Hebrew .......


And the brunt of the argument is usually carried out arguing over small, insignificant details like we are right now.


Im sorry it is not me who calls a person X , complains about this or that , and not backing anything up : All you do is trade "
Once again, you present false, exaggerated information in the hopes of validating your argument. for the above quoted , where you call me anti-semite blabla . Not one argument is refuted , you go ad hominem without even explaining why , merely trading one accusation for another .


Of course, I am not saying any nation is or can be perfect* Expecting someones argument to be perfect, or otherwise invalid against your argument says more about your arrogance than the legitamicy of an Israeli state.


Are we discussing legitimacy of an Israeli state ? Excuse me but on the Israeli state there are not even half perfectly good arguments , the only one would be They are all there already , while all others are refuted 100% because they are based on false premisses and increbily illogic processes . Can you present one ?


Though, it probably makes your argument easier since the other person has to spend precious minutes typing out why you are wrong.


What ? Are you calling my arguments based on a great ammount of errors so that nobody wants to point them out ? Please refute the content for a change instead of theorizing how my arguments are formed and what they're strength is etc etc etc .


Or, for that matter, anything else regarding the importance of small, yet useless tidbits of information.


What do you think we're discussing here man , jokes ? Useless tidbits of information ? I dont think the question of the Falsha is a tidbits information and I think they will agree with me , toobad we HAVE NO falasha's in here , while there are plenty of Israeli on the net .....hmmmmmm
:bugeye:

Afcourse you are equalizing again everything I post bringing matters back to ad hominem , sure man everything I object against is tidbits info ......
:rolleyes:


It all boils down to the fact that the whole of your argument is based around 'anti-'. You're not willing to admit that anything about Israel is alright - making you an outright hypocrite.


And what would that be ? Tell me what is good about it and to whom and how that relates to the rest of the world and I will judge it as un-biased as possible . you should know the validity of arguments do not depend on weither they are anti or pro .


I did not bring up this falasha argument. But it's interesting, I've been to Adis Abbaba 4 or 5 times. Very nice people. Just like any other place in Israel. Would it surprise me if they wanted to bring in more of their own? Probably not...


You've been to Adis Ababa ? Just like any other place in ISRAEL ? Are you aware Adis Ababa is in Ethiopia ? Please tell me you are speaking of a lil' Adis Ababa somewhere in Tel Aviv I dont know about , or get outta here ..... PS : 4 or 5 ? U dont even know ?


All I know is that things are a lot worse back in Ethiopa, and that Israel, as well as Canada and any other free nations has policies surrounding who can and cannot enter.


What ? Israel is CREATED for the return of the Jews is it not ? I dont think Canada is , I dont think any other nation in this world is .... If they are of the faith of the Hebrew Israelites they are entitled to israel according to the arguments used by the Ashkenazim Zionists following Davie ......


THings like disease. Remember - cholera may be Jewish, but he is not welcome in my bed. Israeli's have an obligation to not endanger themselves.


So if they are sick they are no longer Jewish ? This country is MADE for them if they are ill they should be treated in hospitals not left for dead in Adis begging for food . Thats sickening , you refuse your "brothers" because they are troubled ?

And how about that blood donation incident ? Aids huh ? I say racism rather .......


Would you still say the same thing? I think my own eyes are a better source than most propoganda... Besides, I've read a lot material that anyone else has. And I trust my judgement.


I say that low quality import weed u have in canada has messed up your memory and eyevision . You have read alot of material ? Refer to it then , you bring in absolutely zero on the judgement of falasha discrimination other than "you've seen it" , but u dont even remember where and how many times ? lol

Please......refer to texts based on an argument so we can back on to point .


Hehe...
Get a few Israeli's and here and see what they have to say. There are LOTS of black people in Israel


WHAT ? How many black people are there in Israel according to your imagination then ? I dont need Israeli's in here , I need statistics about their ethnic divisions within Israel , on how you are making up LOTS of black peoples .

For those who care to read some time :
http://www.spaef.com/GPS_PUB/1_3_2_thranhardt.pdf
http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/juice/2000/israeli_society/is6.html


Especially compared to a place like Calgary when discrimination against Africans is practically unheard of. European Jews are more diverse than you'd like to think.


European Jews are quite diverse as Europeans are diverse , whats your point ? How can you complain Calgary to places like Odessa or Chisinau , man have you ever been to Eastern Europe ?


My hope is that an actual Israeli resident will drop in to clarify this for the both of us.


So you consider your information of lower value than for instance what Gill W from Haifa might have to say on it ? If you feel people have authority because of who they are , then I suggest an actual FALASHA would provide clarity , not just some Israeli .....

In the meanwhile stop repeating bullshit like :
All Jews are welcome in Israel. No buts.

Its great this is your own opinion , but thats not reality my man .

They obviously do not work if the other person is aware of it .

What do you mean? So you are aware that you're arguments are redudant and petty?

My arguments are not anti-semitic considering America nor any other place on the globe , not by your hijacked definition nor by its true meaning . If you call me an anti-semite (as you mean anti-jew) , please provide an argument on how I discriminate against Jews . The deal is "anti-semitic" is thrown around at convenience of the interest of peoples' . A Mizrahim Jew spoke the Arabic language and did not even know this lame and retarded German expression of intellectual Jews to ridicule themselves into Israel , before the colonists from Europe came along , I bet they dont even have a word for it in Hebrew .......

Hmm.. I don't think you completely caught what I was trying to say. All of your posts have an anti-semitic undertone, especially when dealing with something 'American'. But that's just an example.

Want some evidence?

Lately you've been toting the name 'Arik Sheinerman' in a derogatory logic. -In an anti-semitic dialect against Jews. Especially the European breed. And don't give me that argument about how 'Europeans aren't 'semites''. English ain't perfect. We both know that.

I could never prove your anti-semitism. You're good enough at debating to know that that putting forth incriminating information is NOT in your best interests. Maybe it's been psychologically embedded in your head. I don't know. But there's that constant undertone, always trying to undermine the intregrity of anything Jewish. Especially when attributed to Zionism. Case in point -

-If a Jew is anti-zionist, then it's doubly good for my purposes-

You may not realize it, but something taken in this sense, a verrry verryy common practice has anti-semitic undertone. I'll draw your attention to another good example -

-The Jews (scientists or otherwise) that assisted Hitler and the Nazi's-

Again, you're questioning the integrity of Jews as whole, and then superimposing it on zionism. In all places, especially European media, that kind of thing has led to an anti-Jewish mentality. As in, it's OK to make these references, as long as I do not directly insult a group of individuals. Check out Austrian, or even Italian web pages. I guess it's true, though. If everybody does do it, it becomes less of a problem...:rolleyes:

Im sorry it is not me who calls a person X , complains about this or that , and not backing anything up : All you do is trade "
Once again, you present false, exaggerated information in the hopes of validating your argument. for the above quoted , where you call me anti-semite blabla . Not one argument is refuted , you go ad hominem without even explaining why , merely trading one accusation for another .


No need to apologize. I actually did bring vital information int to the argument. Especially in using this as an opportunity to spike you for some of the things you've been guilty of saying. Yes, I did go ad hominem in response to this:

1)U shouldnt use such rhetorical terms as "once again" when you are only arguing this specific point

which was in response to this:
Once again, you present false, exaggerated information in the hopes of validating your argument.
-A true statement. It wasn't something that questioned your motivations. I simply slammed you for something you've been guilty of time and time again.

Are we discussing legitimacy of an Israeli state ? Excuse me but on the Israeli state there are not even half perfectly good arguments , the only one would be They are all there already , while all others are refuted 100% because they are based on false premisses and increbily illogic processes . Can you present one ?

Apparantly we are discussing the legitimacy (especially veracity) of an Israeli state. It started when you said this:

PS : Interesting how they adore Solomon , yets the people he formed with Queen Sheba of Ethiopia that are todays Falasha Jews , arent that welcome in the wonderfull Yeretz Yisrael .

Excuse me but on the Israeli state there are not even half perfectly good arguments , the only one would be They are all there already ,

Excuse me? By whoose standards are they not even 'half perfectly good arguments', (I'm tempted to put 'en al abook right here :))?

false premisses and increbily illogic processes . Can you present one ?

Can you? If they really did follow the train of though you describe, methinks there'd not be such a massive controversy?

What ? Are you calling my arguments based on a great ammount of errors so that nobody wants to point them out ? Please refute the content for a change instead of theorizing how my arguments are formed and what they're strength is etc etc etc .

Yes. It's a tiresome. Some of Sciforums best avoid this place now due to the reducancy of the arguments, and the sheer time it's take to plow through mountains of detail giving details.

I think I could accept the challenge to refute the content of all of your posts, but my better judgement tells me not to. Instinct, ya know? Instead, I'm hoping that you'll be at least 1/4 willing to climb up center with the rest of us to a higher level of argument.

What do you think we're discussing here man , jokes ? Useless tidbits of information ? I dont think the question of the Falsha is a tidbits information and I think they will agree with me , toobad we HAVE NO falasha's in here , while there are plenty of Israeli on the net .....hmmmmmm

I hardly think of the mideast conflict as a 'JOKE.' Or are we arguing over the Falasha's again? I'm not even sure.

If we're talking about the Falasha's, I don't consider it a Joke either. But their importance to the mideast conflict is laughable at best. If you're trying to play down the Israelis' position in the mideast - as you pointed out with this <- Falasha Jews , arent that welcome in the wonderfull Yeretz Yisrael . >then you know my feelings.

EDIT:::
I made a portion a quoted example invisible...using HTML I had never know?? Apparantly>< these brackets in opposite set make their contents dissapear...

And what would that be ? Tell me what is good about it and to whom and how that relates to the rest of the world and I will judge it as un-biased as possible . you should know the validity of arguments do not depend on weither they are anti or pro .

I don't think I should have to tell you? I recognize that the Israeli's are in a predicament, and I recognize that the Palestinians are too. And on the middle ground lives extremists that want to kill. Each side has their merits. I'm saying that you would do better to accept the merits of Israel, -even if you're not pro-zion, or pro-Israel, or anything at all. They DO have merits, and I shouldn't have to prime examples for you to see them.
>

And as a matter of fact, AM, being pro or anti does have huge implications on your argument. If you come off sounding as 'destroy-the-infidels' as our good friend Moussaoui, or even Kadafi, people are going to look at you that way. Not making any references....;)

You've been to Adis Ababa ? Just like any other place in ISRAEL ? Are you aware Adis Ababa is in Ethiopia ? Please tell me you are speaking of a lil' Adis Ababa somewhere in Tel Aviv I dont know about , or get outta here ..... PS : 4 or 5 ? U dont even know ?


There is a place in Israel called Adis Ababa, or something along those lines (very close in name) with a very large population of ethiopians, as well as Arabs. If I remeber, it's near the carmel forest. Some of the nicest landscape in Israel.

What ? Israel is CREATED for the return of the Jews is it not ? I dont think Canada is , I dont think any other nation in this world is .... If they are of the faith of the Hebrew Israelites they are entitled to israel according to the arguments used by the Ashkenazim Zionists following Davie ......


No..last time I checked, Canada had nothing to do with the return of the Jews. In fact, it was just part of the new world. THe point is, Israel is a free nation, and the people inside of it have rights. Protected, real ones. It is a democracy. Do not throw the old 'well they kill the Pals!' It is a damn good place. Wonder why so many Arab Israeli's prefer living in Israel? It's a fact

And btw, I'm sure you know that non-Jewish people with special reasons can reside in Israel, right?

So if they are sick they are no longer Jewish ? This country is MADE for them if they are ill they should be treated in hospitals not left for dead in Adis begging for food . Thats sickening , you refuse your "brothers" because they are troubled ?

Don't mess with what I said. It is common practice EVERYWHERE to protect national interests, especially when it comes to the health of it's citizens. Infecting a preventably large population of Israeli's (or anybody else) with a deadly disease is not noble. If they carry treatable, less dangerous diseases, they are entitled to the best of medical care. If they carry highly infectious, deadly diseases, no country will ever accept them. I seriously don't understand how you could dispute something like this?

There are other reasons a person might not be accepted into a country. Read up on immigration policies.


The trouble centers around the argument between Reformed jews and Orthodox jews, the latter not willing to accept others as jews if they do not practice the orthodox version of judaism. The orthodox jews still today are an important factor in Israel and since they are very strict about their bible interpretations (wich contains a roadmap that does not include palestines) , I suspect that the conflict will continu until more liberal and less fundamentalist religious jews/arabs finally get the upperhand.

I say that low quality import weed u have in canada has messed up your memory and eyevision . You have read alot of material ? Refer to it then , you bring in absolutely zero on the judgement of falasha discrimination other than "you've seen it" , but u dont even remember where and how many times ? lol

Haha...ours is widely considered some of the best in the world!

Besides, we both know that most falasha pages are the same, and would only go to validate your argument. Kudos.

Actually, I've seen it for sure, and am pretty peachy on the specifics. Infact, a Falasha family lived in the Apartment complex I was staying in. I actually had the opportunity to meet them personally. The daughter had the hotts for me... :D

WHAT ? How many black people are there in Israel according to your imagination then ? I dont need Israeli's in here , I need statistics about their ethnic divisions within Israel , on how you are making up LOTS of black peoples .

There are waay more blacks in Israel than there are in Calgary. Mind you, alot of them are darker Arabs, Sephardim, and your average Falasha. What you consider lots is probably a lot different from me.

European Jews are quite diverse as Europeans are diverse , whats your point ?


That was my point. I thought you were disputing it...

So you consider your information of lower value than for instance what Gill W from Haifa might have to say on it ? If you feel people have authority because of who they are , then I suggest an actual FALASHA would provide clarity , not just some Israeli .....

In the meanwhile stop repeating bullshit like :
All Jews are welcome in Israel. No buts.

Its great this is your own opinion , but thats not reality my man .

Yup, Gil would be a primary source. I agree, though, a Falasha in the flesh would be better. But what are the odds of one of those popping by to say hello?

I realize that shit happens. I cannot control the shit that does. But I can stand by my convictions along with all of the other people that argue with the 'holochot' Jews out there who want to discriminate against falashim. We can only hope :m:

The trouble centers around the argument between Reformed jews and Orthodox jews, the latter not willing to accept others as jews if they do not practice the orthodox version of judaism. The orthodox jews still today are an important factor in Israel and since they are very strict about their bible interpretations (wich contains a roadmap that does not include palestines) , I suspect that the conflict will continu until more liberal and less fundamentalist religious jews/arabs finally get the upperhand.

It appears as though they have in Israel. Israeli's are waaaay different than they were inthe 80's. I'd even go as far as to say that Israel has been one of the most dynamic places in the world over then past 2 decades. No kidding. One day, cars are a luxury...the next everybody has three.

In Palestinian regions, though, fundamentalism seems to be taking deeper roots than ever before. It's becoming a real problem and is no practical solution to their problems.



Anyways, it's nice to hear you people rooting me. I appreciate it, really - but I'm 17. Almost an adult. Or an adult by Jewish standards, anyways... :cool:


(Incase you're all wondering...I had to post these seperate pieces due to limitations on response size)

I just returned to Sciforums because I was bored. I read a few threads in this forum. Quite a few.

Now, I am disappointed and impressed at the same time.

I am disappointed in Elbaz because his arguments and refutations-- formerly nearly on par with my standards-- have dropped as far below as you can go (except maybe Whatsupyall...).

I am impressed by how Allahs Mathematics' arguments and refutations and debate skills have improved at least twofold. He has dropped the anti-semetic undertone (contrary to popular... err... Elbaz opinion), dropped almost all ad-hominiem, and is expressing himself much more clearly than before (spelling and punctuation aside, of course, because English isn't his first language)

Now, a short critique of Elbaz: Unlike the old Elbaz, the Elbaz I see now almost NEVER refutes points and avoids them completely, focusing on minor insignificances of the post to which he is replying. He resorts to ad-hominiem quite a bit more. He likes to tell people that their arguments are insignificant for reason X. He responds to valid requests for refutations with casual responses that he doesn't have time, or that it isn't worth it.

Elbaz: Big thumbs-down for you.

And if you think I'm discriminating, there are Zionists here on or above par with AM, and anti-Zionists nearly as bad as Elbaz.

I'm having a rush of thoughts which I can't explain with words, so let me use smilies (and words):

You're acting way too :cool: (NOT "cool", but rather the smiley!) and :rolleyes:, and not enough valid refutations (as opposed to :bugeye:<!--llqql-->).

Good to see you again, GB. I thought you had left for good. I will enjoy seeing you frag me as well as others in the near future. :)

As for your critique...I'm not sure what you mean. For one, I am the same old Elbaz as always. If you were to categorize me as a 'newer' Elbaz, then the majority seems to like that person better. Only time will tell. You'll have to stick around. I now have a 24 hour broadband connection and 3 months of freedom...

Either way, I bow to the authority that is GB-Gil


:) :m:

BTW, I think you may enjoy aquanting yourself with a fellow named Jerrek. He will serve as my right (faaar right) hand to occupy you in times when I am busy with somebody else.

Elbaz :

I don't think I should have to tell you?


My friend it is you who accuses me of not wanting to give any credit for Israel's wonderfullness . If you are not even capable or willing to point me out to the goods , so I can judge them and form my opinion , then why are you accusing me of not willing in the first place ?

It is you who call me a hypocrite , yet you do not offer any space or material for me to refute that , isnt that just silly ? Show me the good of Israel , and maybe Ill agree . If you dont wanna , dont accuse me .


Each side has their merits. I'm saying that you would do better to accept the merits of Israel, -even if you're not pro-zion, or pro-Israel, or anything at all. They DO have merits, and I shouldn't have to prime examples for you to see them.


Yes you should because I dont see them , maybe Im blind that could be , or maybe I never looked at it in that way , but if you do not offer anyhthing that is where it remains . The only good things I can think of come along with things 100X worse ........


I recognize that the Israeli's are in a predicament, and I recognize that the Palestinians are too. And on the middle ground lives extremists that want to kill


It has nothing to do with extremism my friend , whats extreme when almost everybody is into it ? As far as Palestine goes , the Zionist terror for the last 55 years has chased about HALF of the population into Islamism (and no its not Islamism that motivates suicide-bombings and Al Aqsa Brigades are the proof for it) , while the Zionists themselves were NAZI's from day 1 . Likud won the elections , again , stop blaiming it on extremicies and corners , its is the PEOPLE of Israel that are a/the driving force in about every relevant way . It is the people of Israel that vote , it is the people of Israel that form the IDF , who's the extremist , Sharon ? He is a murderer and has been so since before 82 even , yet he is the PEOPLE's prime minister .


And as a matter of fact, AM, being pro or anti does have huge implications on your argument.


No it does not , what matters is what is surrounding the + or - , the direction itself is highly irellevant for a valid argument . The only implications that are involved are psychological and emotional ones , those have little to do with the validity of the argument


If you come off sounding as 'destroy-the-infidels' as our good friend Moussaoui, or even Kadafi, people are going to look at you that way. Not making any references....


I can even come off as kill all the jews like Hitler and yet make valid arguments , its not inter-dependant . How people look at it is an emotional and psychological issue that has little to do with the subject itself .


There is a place in Israel called Adis Ababa, or something along those lines (very close in name) with a very large population of ethiopians, as well as Arabs. If I remeber, it's near the carmel forest. Some of the nicest landscape in Israel.


I was hoping for such an option , otherwise this entire discussion would become totally retarded wouldnt u say ?


THe point is, Israel is a free nation, and the people inside of it have rights. Protected, real ones. It is a democracy. Do not throw the old 'well they kill the Pals!' It is a damn good place. Wonder why so many Arab Israeli's prefer living in Israel? It's a fact


Its a good place for Jews , Arabs are highly discriminated the reason they live in Israel is because they surrended when attacked , as far as a preferation , even I would rather live in israel than in a refugeecamp my friend , residency doesnt have to depend on idealistic concepts , but on regular things like economy etc .

Now dont tell me you have spoken and seen Arabs in Israel and they're all fine , we all know thats utter bull .

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51b/016.html
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/000722/2000072205.html
http://csmweb2.emcweb.com/durable/2000/09/28/fp7s2-csm.shtml
http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjust/199907/0000.html

Ofcourse the propaganda machine needs some attention as well : Its not that hard to decipher valid info from all that crap
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/Human_Rights/human_rts_in_Israel.html


And btw, I'm sure you know that non-Jewish people with special reasons can reside in Israel, right?


Actually I didnt ? What are those special reasons , as a refugee ? Then I have 6 M Palestinian refugees knocking at your door (of who plenty have jobs already in Israel) . What other "special" reasons ? $ ?


Don't mess with what I said. It is common practice EVERYWHERE to protect national interests, especially when it comes to the health of it's citizens. Infecting a preventably large population of Israeli's (or anybody else) with a deadly disease is not noble. If they carry treatable, less dangerous diseases, they are entitled to the best of medical care. If they carry highly infectious, deadly diseases, no country will ever accept them. I seriously don't understand how you could dispute something like this?


Because its bullshit , nobody has to worry for any infection if people handle things with care and , what would you do if your peoples in Israel themselves would have diseases that are "highly infectious" ? Kick them out ?


There are other reasons a person might not be accepted into a country. Read up on immigration policies.


There are a million reasons , what we need is reasons that are actually correct an relevant . Besides , Israel doesnt quite have the same status as any other country dealing with immigration , now do they ? Israel isnt any other country .....


The trouble centers around the argument between Reformed jews and Orthodox jews, the latter not willing to accept others as jews if they do not practice the orthodox version of judaism. The orthodox jews still today are an important factor in Israel and since they are very strict about their bible interpretations (wich contains a roadmap that does not include palestines) , I suspect that the conflict will continu until more liberal and less fundamentalist religious jews/arabs finally get the upperhand.


Are you seriously throwing the issue at orthodox vs islamists ? Thats a damn joke my friend , its the orthodox that dont accept ISRAEL as a state untill their Messiah comes along , not Davey-Ben .....

Zionism IS secular , Zionism goes against everything that is jewish , here''s a nice Jewish view on the matters :
http://sami119.tripod.com/shemaisrael/id55.html


Haha...ours is widely considered some of the best in the world!


Who told you that joke ? lol
Anyways it sure as hell isnt better than what I have right here
;)


Besides, we both know that most falasha pages are the same, and would only go to validate your argument. Kudos.
Actually, I've seen it for sure, and am pretty peachy on the specifics. Infact, a Falasha family lived in the Apartment complex I was staying in. I actually had the opportunity to meet them personally. The daughter had the hotts for me...


My friend , academic research cant be compared to some falasha girl having the hots for you..........


There are waay more blacks in Israel than there are in Calgary. Mind you, alot of them are darker Arabs, Sephardim, and your average Falasha. What you consider lots is probably a lot different from me.


:rolleyes:


That was my point. I thought you were disputing it...


Why would I want to dispute that ? I only spoke of the Eastern Europeans who havent seen a black head in their lives .


Yup, Gil would be a primary source.


LMAO


I agree, though, a Falasha in the flesh would be better. But what are the odds of one of those popping by to say hello?


And why is that ? Why doesnt ANY falasha have the possibility to interact on the internet while I come across Ashkenazim from Israel on the net all the time ? Sure its statistics , but NONE indicates possibility .

Anyways thanks for not acting ad hominem this time .

gb scares the shit out of me

gb?

gb scares the shit out of me


:rolleyes:

gb as in GB-GIL Trans-global

oh right,....sorry man,...friggin brain's like fried chicken 2day..

(...insert your own witty reposte....);)

Good to see you again, GB. I thought you had left for good. I will enjoy seeing you frag me as well as others in the near future. :)

... no valid response even to my post telling you that you don't give valid responses, not yet at least... hmm... what does this tell me about you? (answer: not whatever you're going to say unless I agree with it too!)

As for your critique...I'm not sure what you mean.

I'm sure you know very, very well what I mean.

For one, I am the same old Elbaz as always.

No, you aren't. You could say I have been the same Mark since the day I was born, and technically it would be true. However, I'm 100% sure you know what I'm talking about.

Exactly the sort of thing I was referring to in my critique. Two thumbs-down, Elbaz. Two thumbs-down. *shakes head sadly*

If you were to categorize me as a 'newer' Elbaz, then the majority seems to like that person better.

Ooh, really? You mean spookz, bhudmaash, Allahs_Mathematics, Vortexx, and company? Or do you mean Jerrek, Jerrek, Jerrek, Joeman, Jerrek, Gil_W, Jerrek, Jerrek, Joeman, Jerrek, Jerrek, Avatar, Jerrek, Jerrek, Avatar, Joeman, Jerrek, Jerrek, Jerrek, Gil_W, Jerrek, Ariel Sharon, Jerrek, Joeman, Jerrek, Jerrek, Jerrek, Jerrek, and Jerrek? :rolleyes:

Only time will tell. You'll have to stick around. I now have a 24 hour broadband connection and 3 months of freedom...

Oh goody. I would just say fvck you, and leave, but I can tell you really need somebody to pop your ego.

Either way, I bow to the authority that is GB-Gil

Hmm, I guess that vB Code tag doesn't exist... so... in that case, I humbly accept your resignation to the fact that you suck and I'm way better than you. ;)

BTW, I think you may enjoy aquanting yourself with a fellow named Jerrek. He will serve as my right (faaar right) hand to occupy you in times when I am busy with somebody else.

That neonazi ba$tard? He can go fvck himself. (btw, I've already been acquainted with him. he's as close to evil as I think you can get since I don't believe in absolute morals)

Originally posted by spookz
gb scares the shit out of me

aww... I thought we were frenz?

no buts? what does the ethiopians religiosity have to do with the discrimination (documented on this page!) they face in israel? what do you mean by "dispersed cases?" geographic? time? you appear to be saying solely due to the fact that a ethiopian is more religious than the russian jew, allegations of racism are false or exaggerated. explain to me the logic here.

I think I have already covered this.
>The 'holochot' Jews are known to discriminate. They face discrimination mostly from that group (rarely from others). Israel is not totally comprised of 'holochot'. Especially some places (EG Eilat.) And so, the discrimination they face is a lot more rare and superficial than you might think. Russian Jews, or at least most of whom I've been around, don't exactly practice Judaism at all. Alot of it has gone to waste since the soviets took power 80 years ago. You'll find many eating pork, driving on saturday or what have you. They face discrimination, too. In Israel, there is constant argument about the level of Judaism that should be maintained. So really - the Falasha's aren't that bad off when you look at the big picture. All the animosity is not directed towards them.

Oh, and By dispersed, I mean to say the opposite of segregated and linear discrimination. It doesn't happen all the time, and when it does, it happens in a random manor.

well tell me what you have seen. how did you understand racism or lack of it on your visits to israel? what are you implying about the internet? that shit found on it is bogus? a professor publishing online, an article documenting his 2yr of research into ethnic discrimination pales in comparison to your two visits. quite the arrogant little fucker aint you? what qualifications do you have?

The first case of racism I saw was in the shook (street market.) It wasn't an assaultive kind of racism. Two of the people (wearing kipot,) looked at them a bit differently. Not really evily, but in a more subdued way. They seemed a bit more uncomfortable than the other people.

Then you have the apartment complex I spoke of earlier. A falasha family lived there. They were nice and got along with everybody. Really tight community. The kids would always play out front (I played with the group twice), with everybody else, just how you'd expect it. I couldn't even detect a hint of ackwardness. Far removed from the market. On one occasion, the mother even walked into our block as she knew my grandparent well, unanswered. Practically part of the family.

Keep in mind, people in our complex weren't very religious. I mean, Jewish, but not fundie in any sense.


What I'm implying about the internet is that you should take what you read with a grain of salt. I'm not trying to defend the actions of anybody - especially racists. I am not one of them. What I see is what I'll speak about. But I'd advise you to watch your mouth the next time you want to call me something dirty. I'm not your mother ;)

if jewishness depends on this fellow and his pronouncements impact people, i would say that it would be wise not to write him off as a two bit player

There is no - NOT ONE - authority in Judaism under God. Judaism depends nothing on their pronouncements. they are advisers, and functions to make the most justifiable decisions. They're NOT perfect. And a lot of people disagree them. You have no idea how much argument goes on in the ranks of rabbi's/

so as long as the theory is ok you dont give a damn about what is actually practised? do you understand what you just said here? you first play down instances of discrimination ("false or exaggerated claims"), then you go on to say " they do ("'holochot' Jews discriminate against other Jews") discriminate. there seems to be no coherence in your thoughts

No. That is assuming that all Israeli's are 'holochot,' and they are not. Let's clarify this right now: Eretz Israel is very diverse in its Jewishness. Shit that does happen is localized and rarer than you might be led to think by professor Sputnik. People have different idea's about Judaism and my personal tendancies sway to be more liberalistic than most 'holochot' Jews. More towards the biblical center. Orthodox are very talmudic.

we are talking about govt policies. who gives a shit if a chick has the hots for an ethiopian?

I don't think it mattered that she did. I just said it as an aside. Can't a guy enjoy debating?

Government policy is very simple:

Any Jew can come to Israel (as long as their not a threat to others. IE disease)

We've already established that just what a Jew is, differs from group to group. 'Holochot' tend to discriminate, and don't really consider Falasha to be Jews, even though they are supposedly an important lost tribe. Conservatives and Reforms are 10 0000x more tolerant and accepting. The only reason government policy sways is because of some orthodox in the higher government pushing. But it's not concrete, and very debateable. Therefore it's not a 'policy'. It's a grey zone that people cannot agree on. You already know my position...

talk is cheap. if nothing is resolved, if problems are not fixed as a result of these discussions, why even bother? "wee hrs of the morning" my ass!

You've obviously never schmoozed. :rolleyes: On a recent convention, a number of the people stayed up the entire night doing Torah study, and arguing over passages while I was trying to rest a few feet away. These are KIDS. Arguments are rarely ever resolved amongst us, and so, the person with the upper hand will usually 'win'. Right now the ultra-orthodox have the upper hand. So they get the bigger say. But the fighting goes on, and the grey area still exists. The problems are in the process of being fixed. Nobody can control the length of time it will take. Just like you can't control laws that may be discriminatory to homo-sexuals in the united states. Why bother arguing if we cant agree? Well I say that hope is still there.

My friend it is you who accuses me of not wanting to give any credit for Israel's wonderfullness . If you are not even capable or willing to point me out to the goods , so I can judge them and form my opinion , then why are you accusing me of not willing in the first place ?

It is you who call me a hypocrite , yet you do not offer any space or material for me to refute that , isnt that just silly ? Show me the good of Israel , and maybe Ill agree . If you dont wanna , dont accuse me .

Okay - I'll give you some good things about Israel. Then you'll give me some good things about your Palestinians.

-Israel is a democracy with real laws and justice for its citizens.

-Any Jew can seek refuge in it.

-Follows a policy of non-aggression - only using force when absolutely necessary.

-Important scientific center -especially in biological research and computer sciences.

-strong community

-values social welfare more than most democracies, esp USA.

-Has always seeked peace and security. Never initiating a war. It has signed treaties with all of its neighbors exept the Palestinians - who would not accept a compromise. Publicly stating this. Such a policy will be the death of peace in the middle east.

I'll gladly defend all of these points for whatever refutations you might want to make.

Yes you should because I dont see them , maybe Im blind that could be , or maybe I never looked at it in that way , but if you do not offer anyhthing that is where it remains . The only good things I can think of come along with things 100X worse ........

Ya know, I wish I could send you to tour Israel so you could see some of the good things for yourself. I think you would really see things differently. I for one sympathize with the (non-extremist) Palestinians, and realize that they have problems; -but just because I am pro-Israel does not mean I'm about to say that they have no good in them. Good intentions are usually the hardest to see.

It has nothing to do with extremism my friend , whats extreme when almost everybody is into it ? As far as Palestine goes , the Zionist terror for the last 55 years has chased about HALF of the population into Islamism (and no its not Islamism that motivates suicide-bombings and Al Aqsa Brigades are the proof for it) , while the Zionists themselves were NAZI's from day 1 . Likud won the elections , again , stop blaiming it on extremicies and corners , its is the PEOPLE of Israel that are a/the driving force in about every relevant way . It is the people of Israel that vote , it is the people of Israel that form the IDF , who's the extremist , Sharon ? He is a murderer and has been so since before 82 even , yet he is the PEOPLE's prime minister .

I guess by that logic, the Nazi's were as ecumenical as you or I? The Khmer Rouge? As compared amongst themselves, they weren't extremist at all of course, but from a global point of view...they were damn extreme.

Zionists are hardly Nazi's. Prove it with some logic and I will gladly argue a statement like that. 'They made terror and suffering for Palestinians' means nothing and does not suffice.

its is the PEOPLE of Israel that are a/the driving force in about every relevant way

What's this I smell? A lie. Why yes it is! I'll remind you that it was the PA who clearly say that are not willing to compromise. I will explain logically:

-Neither side is willing to give up and surrender.
-Israel is willing to compromise for peace
-The Plestinians are not.

Such a policy of 'give us what we want or we'll kill you' will never result in peace. Never. And it's the extremists which chant this day and night. Israel had already offered more than they had to give (which as you remember, got Barak (was it?) out of the Job.) And the PA would still not accept. You're completely wrong in saying that Israel is the driving force behind the conflict. They wont dissapear into the ocean. -I'm sad to say I have little doubt you want the same. Really. It's a shame.

Likud won the election because Israeli's were sick and tired of having their children blown to smitherines, and them some. A war was (and clearly still is) going on, and as long as Israel is forced to deal with virgin hungry suicide bombers, I can't see Likud coming out of power. They are simply a response to terrorism, in the vicious circle where these terrists give themselves reason to kill. The solution is not for Israeli's to sit back and get blown up until Palestinians feel as though they've weakened Israel enough to have some form of physical control. That is absurd.


Oh yeah - Yassir has been more of a murderer than Sharon ever was. Do you need to be reminded of Munich? Howabout all of the terrorist organizations he champions and/or refuses to crack down on? Thats right...

No it does not , what matters is what is surrounding the + or - , the direction itself is highly irellevant for a valid argument . The only implications that are involved are psychological and emotional ones , those have little to do with the validity of the argument I can even come off as kill all the jews like Hitler and yet make valid arguments , its not inter-dependant . How people look at it is an emotional and psychological issue that has little to do with the subject itself .

Nuh, uh. I've become well aquainted with the art of 'position papers'. The implications are that you either come off as an ardent terrorist, or a convicted activist. Even though they seem synonymous, they are very different people. The + or - direction is simply an indicator of their attitude.

And sure - you could make a coherent argument. Anybody that speaks a cognitive human language can. but are you trying to dispute the fact that it would change the way people look at you, and therefore the impact and outcome (psychologically)? If people look at you like a Hitler, they'll treat you like one, and give less merit to your argument. Only the zealeots would tag along.

I was hoping for such an option , otherwise this entire discussion would become totally retarded wouldnt u say ?

It certainly would. But I detect a hint of sarcasm so I'll be clear in saying: That place does exist in Israel. I've been there.

Its a good place for Jews , Arabs are highly discriminated the reason they live in Israel is because they surrended when attacked , as far as a preferation , even I would rather live in israel than in a refugeecamp my friend , residency doesnt have to depend on idealistic concepts , but on regular things like economy etc .

I don't deny that racism does happen, AM. It happens everywhere. Even in Calgary. But let's face it, people in Israel(including Jews and Arabs) have way more more rights than in any arab nation or camp. The fact that they surrendered the vicious war their brothers had started, to stay merely validates the point that they are decent human beings who care more about peace and prosperity as opposed to holocaust.

Ask gilW, -in many places they do get along side by side. Very nicely. They are not extremists, and in my experiences, almost indistinguishable from some of the Jews. Some places they don't. What does that say? That some people are dicks. That's what. And I know it happens a lot. The rights still exist. It's up to the good people to defend them.

Don't tell me that it so bad that they cannot live there. That is equal in shitness to saying that they don't face any problems at all. I have no reason to dispute this sad fact of life.

Actually I didnt ? What are those special reasons , as a refugee ? Then I have 6 M Palestinian refugees knocking at your door (of who plenty have jobs already in Israel) . What other "special" reasons ? $ ?

Religious, or business reasons, mostly. Academics are also a big chunk of the number who enter the country on citizenship. Especially that involving science.

Asking to allow 6 million refugees in is hardly reasonable. I hope you realize there are quota's?

Because its bullshit , nobody has to worry for any infection if people handle things with care and , what would you do if your peoples in Israel themselves would have diseases that are "highly infectious" ? Kick them out ?

Actually it's not bullshit. Canada is very reluctant right not to let in many African immigrants right now just because of the prevalance of disease. It's a huge problem and is not discrimination.

If somebody in Israel had a highly infectious disease, they would be put in quarantine. Not kicked out. But remember, this is still dangerous and costs a LOT of $$$. Accept a highly diseased and dying person into your country and you will suffer the consequences. There's a line between goodness and naivity...

There are a million reasons , what we need is reasons that are actually correct an relevant . Besides , Israel doesnt quite have the same status as any other country dealing with immigration , now do they ? Israel isnt any other country .....

Ummm...yeah. But when it comes to immigration policies, and guarding the best national interests, it is the same everywhere you go. Including Israel. It's common logic. An infected Jew isn't very different from an infected goy. And on the same note I'm not denying that some people are unjustly turned down. THat's the way the world turns

Are you seriously throwing the issue at orthodox vs islamists ? Thats a damn joke my friend , its the orthodox that dont accept ISRAEL as a state untill their Messiah comes along , not Davey-Ben .....

Where did the issue of Islamists come in? Orthodoxy versus other forms of Judaism. Especially the more liberalistic kinds. That's what I'm talking about.

I happen to go to an orthodox synogogue and we are much in support of Israel. Zionist indeed. I think you are reffering to Hassidism which is a more orthodox type of Judaism, removed from the classical 'orthodoxy'. I don't know quite how to put it. And yes - I have read the hassidic argument against Israel. It's not something I agree with.

Anyways it sure as hell isnt better than what I have right here

Really? The board seems to unanimously agree that BC hydro is the best. Ask anybody here. hehe.....You aint seen nothing. Or so I've heard...I've never actually done that kind of thing. Just heresay :cool:

My friend , academic research cant be compared to some falasha girl having the hots for you..........

Or can it....
*stokes imaginary goatee*

Why would I want to dispute that ? I only spoke of the Eastern Europeans who havent seen a black head in their lives .

Okay, glad we got that one cleared up. But I still have enough faith in the intelligence of your average eastern european to say that they should not be expected to act so xenophobically. Yeah, they stick out like a sore thumb. But people ain't all that bad :)


And why is that ? Why doesnt ANY falasha have the possibility to interact on the internet while I come across Ashkenazim from Israel on the net all the time ? Sure its statistics , but NONE indicates possibility .

Well, statistically, there are a lot more Ashkenazi's on the internet than your average Falashim. Remember, they are relatively rare. That is not sufficient to prove anything at all. I won't, however, dispute the fact that your average falasha earns less than a normal Ashkenaz Jew. It's a statiscal. -I will maintain that this is a LOT different than the in your face, you can't pee there, you're not cool enough racism.

It's much more similiar to hispanics or black people living in the present United States.

gb scares the shit out of me

Oh, come on now. He's actually quite nice when he takes his medicine ;)

Good to see you again, GB. I thought you had left for good. I will enjoy seeing you frag me as well as others in the near future.

... no valid response even to my post telling you that you don't give valid responses, not yet at least... hmm... what does this tell me about you? (answer: not whatever you're going to say unless I agree with it too!)

As for your critique...I'm not sure what you mean.

I'm sure you know very, very well what I mean.

For one, I am the same old Elbaz as always.

No, you aren't. You could say I have been the same Mark since the day I was born, and technically it would be true. However, I'm 100% sure you know what I'm talking about.

Exactly the sort of thing I was referring to in my critique. Two thumbs-down, Elbaz. Two thumbs-down. *shakes head sadly*

If you were to categorize me as a 'newer' Elbaz, then the majority seems to like that person better.

Ooh, really? You mean spookz, bhudmaash, Allahs_Mathematics, Vortexx, and company? Or do you mean Jerrek, Jerrek, Jerrek, Joeman, Jerrek, Gil_W, Jerrek, Jerrek, Joeman, Jerrek, Jerrek, Avatar, Jerrek, Jerrek, Avatar, Joeman, Jerrek, Jerrek, Jerrek, Gil_W, Jerrek, Ariel Sharon, Jerrek, Joeman, Jerrek, Jerrek, Jerrek, Jerrek, and Jerrek?

Only time will tell. You'll have to stick around. I now have a 24 hour broadband connection and 3 months of freedom...

Oh goody. I would just say fvck you, and leave, but I can tell you really need somebody to pop your ego.

Either way, I bow to the authority that is GB-Gil

Hmm, I guess that vB Code tag doesn't exist... so... in that case, I humbly accept your resignation to the fact that you suck and I'm way better than you.

BTW, I think you may enjoy aquanting yourself with a fellow named Jerrek. He will serve as my right (faaar right) hand to occupy you in times when I am busy with somebody else.

That neonazi ba$tard? He can go fvck himself. (btw, I've already been acquainted with him. he's as close to evil as I think you can get since I don't believe in absolute morals)

Ummm...okay'rolleyes' Whenever you want to play with the rest of the children, you just let me know.

Oh...BTW...You're right about Jerrek hehe

Israel is a democracy with real laws and justice for its citizens.

-Any Jew can seek refuge in it.

-Follows a policy of non-aggression - only using force when absolutely necessary.

-Important scientific center -especially in biological research and computer sciences.

-strong community

-values social welfare more than most democracies, esp USA.

-Has always seeked peace and security. Never initiating a war. It has signed treaties with all of its neighbors exept the Palestinians - who would not accept a compromise. Publicly stating this. Such a policy will be the death of peace in the middle east.

and all this came about how? dispossessing and expelling people off their land?

i am actually not really versed in all things israeli and have no real desire to be so before i bow out of this debate, i gotta ask you.... what is holochot? it sounds similar to a certain word but i rather you tell me

;)

* i dont know why gb ragged on you so hard. you reason fairly well i think
* rabbis discussing stuff is cliched. used in movies. i know about it. i actually think it is excellent. if more people did the same..............

Elbaz :


-Israel is a democracy with real laws and justice for its citizens.


1)Well I obviously dont agree on the justice for its citizens , and I have mentioned my arguments .
2)I care little for democracy if it chooses child-murderers as prime ministers
3)real laws are decided to be real by authority , I dont consider Israel authority as I dont recognize its zionist state .
4)lets not even mention the wonderfull "justice" it has brought to the innocent natives of Palestine over 55 years .
Tov, toda !!!!!!!


Any Jew can seek refuge in it.


Obviously this isnt true .......


Follows a policy of non-aggression - only using force when absolutely necessary.


You're kidding me right ? It invaded in 48 and still colonizes and if it wasnt enough to dstroy villages they come after you in refugee camp .


Important scientific center -especially in biological research and computer sciences.


Producer of fables like the Jewish gen , am i correct ? Thats a joke


-strong community


Thats very positive for YOU yes


-values social welfare more than most democracies, esp USA.


social welfare for those who they consider human ..........


-Has always seeked peace and security. Never initiating a war. It has signed treaties with all of its neighbors exept the Palestinians


First of all those dictators it deals with are not relevant now are they ? And if they would be , Arab regimes still dont recognize the souvereignity of Israel . Secondly , the Palestinians are the only ones that matter , and Israel has behaved as NAZI's agains these peoples ......


I guess by that logic, the Nazi's were as ecumenical as you or I? The Khmer Rouge? As compared amongst themselves, they weren't extremist at all of course, but from a global point of view...they were damn extreme.


What ? Who cares about them compared to eachother , and if you wish to bring in the nazi's please bring in Avraham Stern and Vladimir Jabotinsky as well .


Zionists are hardly Nazi's. Prove it with some logic and I will gladly argue a statement like that. 'They made terror and suffering for Palestinians' means nothing and does not suffice.


Lehi and Irgun have cooperated with Nazi's , Zionism sympathised with anti-semitism and by logical social survival in the German Endlosung system the strongest Jews (the Zionists) lead certain operations for self-survival , also there were transfer agreements (there has been a thread about this in here) .

And that was just history , they comitted assaults amongs their own peoples to get them into Israel , they have chased 700.000 Palestinians out of their villages in 48 , and they are brutally occupying whatever there is left of a Palestine witch is Gaza and WB , killing 3 times as many as the Palestinian "terrorist" do .


What's this I smell? A lie. Why yes it is! I'll remind you that it was the PA who clearly say that are not willing to compromise. I will explain logically:

-Neither side is willing to give up and surrender.
-Israel is willing to compromise for peace
-The Plestinians are not.

Such a policy of 'give us what we want or we'll kill you' will never result in peace. Never. And it's the extremists which chant this day and night. Israel had already offered more than they had to give (which as you remember, got Barak (was it?) out of the Job.) And the PA would still not accept. You're completely wrong in saying that Israel is the driving force behind the conflict. They wont dissapear into the ocean. -I'm sad to say I have little doubt you want the same. Really. It's a shame.


Even Hamas would settle if Israel would drop arms against its peoples , what is a compromize , surrender ? Surrendering is not an option , do you honestly think Barak was the big change , dont make me laugh , Likud is running business as it emerged from the Stern (Lehi) gang and it hit the jackpot with Shamir as its prime minister , having murderers as minister is traditional in Israel Sharon isnt the first . Shamir has led both Lehi as Irgun .
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1096/9610087.htm


Likud won the election because Israeli's were sick and tired of having their children blown to smitherines, and them some. A war was (and clearly still is) going on, and as long as Israel is forced to deal with virgin hungry suicide bombers, I can't see Likud coming out of power. They are simply a response to terrorism, in the vicious circle where these terrists give themselves reason to kill. The solution is not for Israeli's to sit back and get blown up until Palestinians feel as though they've weakened Israel enough to have some form of physical control. That is absurd.


And by choosing Likud the PEOPLE of Israel have chosen war , they could have had Mitzna and there would be a tiny hope , but they chose Satan from Sabra and Shatilla ...... A respons to terrorism ? Hamas is since 84 , since when is Likud ? Likud has emerged from Heirut who comes from Lehi , thats your terrorism right there ......


Oh yeah - Yassir has been more of a murderer than Sharon ever was. Do you need to be reminded of Munich? Howabout all of the terrorist organizations he champions and/or refuses to crack down on? Thats right...


What ? The Olympics ? Is that worse than Sabra and Shatilla ?
And that was Black September by the way ..........


but are you trying to dispute the fact that it would change the way people look at you


no I am not as I said peoples have attitudes because of emotional and psychological motives , not because of validity of an argument .


That place does exist in Israel. I've been there.


I believe you already :D


I don't deny that racism does happen, AM. It happens everywhere. Even in Calgary. But let's face it, people in Israel(including Jews and Arabs) have way more more rights than in any arab nation or camp.


Better in israel than in a camp ? Come on man , this is ridiculing the dignity of a people .


The fact that they surrendered the vicious war their brothers had started, to stay merely validates the point that they are decent human beings who care more about peace and prosperity as opposed to holocaust.


What ? This thinking is ridiculous , more decent human beings because they surrendered ? I cant even comment on this one any more ........ If they are then so are the Jews that were nice enough to hand over adresses to the SS , ow wait , that was in trade for a ticket to Palestine .....


Ask gilW, -


lol


What does that say? That some people are dicks


How many more deaths untill this disneyland bubble bursts ?


Asking to allow 6 million refugees in is hardly reasonable. I hope you realize there are quota's?


Quota's ? For a peoples to GO HOME ?


Actually it's not bullshit. Canada is very reluctant right not to let in many African immigrants right now just because of the prevalance of disease. It's a huge problem and is not discrimination.


I think it is , and as far as I hold western Imperialism resposible for whatever deseases they may have .


$$$


There we have the true motive


There's a line between goodness and naivity...


Goodness ? Man....... we should wage world war on your goodness .


THat's the way the world turns


There's disneyland again ..........BLAM!!!!
wake up


Orthodoxy versus other forms of Judaism. Especially the more liberalistic kinds. That's what I'm talking about.

I happen to go to an orthodox synogogue and we are much in support of Israel. Zionist indeed. I think you are reffering to Hassidism which is a more orthodox type of Judaism, removed from the classical 'orthodoxy'. I don't know quite how to put it. And yes - I have read the hassidic argument against Israel. It's not something I agree with.


And you dont agree with it because ? Is Benny the Messiah ? The rules are quite simple my friend , or are we bending matters into our own interests ......