Since there was obviously a deep desire to argue labor unions (and hopefully there still is) I'll start a thread on it. the argument was said that labor unions have outlived their usefullness, a common argument my dad gives btw; crazy conservatives (ahem JOE ahemPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) My sentiments are that Unions are one of hte last rights of the working man. Under capitalism, with the bottom line being numero uno, it is obviously in the best interest of management to pay workers as little as possible. Workers have no protection against this besides striking. If you take away the rights of the workers to form a union and strike then you take away their ability to decide fair working conditions and living wages. Take third world countries for instance, the average age a womans career is over in the 'sweatshops' (a conservative curse word apparently) at 25 thanks to the horrible conditions (its worse in some places and better in others). In many instances these woman (who make up the huge majority of the workforce in oversees factories thanks to their nimble fingers and willingness to sit and stare through a micrscope for hours on end, I'll explain that later if need be) have formed together, even decided that they REALLY DIDNT NEED management in some cases. They would strike or straight up take over the factory, but guess what. The state sanctioned police violence begins, and the rights of these people are brought down in a hail of gunfire - sensationalist, yes...true, yes: in damn near every instance, see the maquiladora factories in Mexico for a great example of all of these 'tales'. I think the only way to create a fair global trade system is to have global unions. These unions would work together to establish living condition wages. I won't get into the details on this, as its not really the point of the thread. The only aspect of 'outlived' usefullness is corruption and government intervention in the market creating labor laws. my problem with this is, corruption exists in all institutions, the good outweighs the bad of unions. labor laws are subject to the same criminal behavior of our politicians as everything else, only worse so. All that money and lobbying the big companies carry(and all the republicans they fund) is a great danger to any laws that limit their power. In short: unions kick ass and are an incredibly important and NECESSARY part of a free trade society.
Your dad is right. I don't want to repeat anything I already said in another thread because I am lazy. It is obviously the best interest of each workers to get paid as much as possible, even if they don't deserve it. I never heard engineers strike. That is why smart people are engineers. The best protection for workers are free trade, a robust economy with low unemployment rate, and competance. Some workers need protection from union because they lack the latter. With low unemployment rate, the workers already have the upper hand, since companies need good workers to compete. Companies want to take market shares from rival companies by hiring best workers available. Companies do not want unhappy employees. Most companies would rather pay extra to gain employee satisfaction and boost their morale. If you are underpaid, leave. Here is another thing from your macroeconomics: Higher wages destroy number of jobs. Lower wages create jobs. I don't understand all the details and problems in third world country. Neither do you. The problems are probably more complicated than that. I am only going to talk about US. That is a huge strentch. A massive global economy fixing beaucracy will sure put an end to modern civilization as we know it. I can see paralyzing global economy with double digit inflation. The name of the chairman of the the global union is probably going to be Mabus. I fixed your post
So you never heard of engineers going on strike, hmmm... http://detnews.com/2000/business/0002/10/02100034.htm "SEATTLE -- Thousands of Boeing Co. engineers went on strike Wednesday, some waving placards reading "No Brains, No Planes," after contract talks broke down over wages and cost cuts. The walkout is only the second in the 56-year history of a union that represents 22,000 engineers and technical workers at the world's biggest planemaker. Its members handle tasks ranging from designing and inspecting aircraft in production to helping airline customers with mechanical problems." Always happy to help.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The economy should dictate wages. Our economy has boomed over the past 50 years, and price inflation has skyrocketed. Yet the working man's wages aren't hardly enough to support a family anymore.
Interesting....airlines are olygopoly so I am not surprised. So is minimum wage law and immigration. There is a boom from 50-65. The economy stayed as flat as pancake until about 83. That is about 30 out of 50 years. The inflation damage is mostly done during Carter administration. Taxes.
unions are VERY important my brother got a job at a BP servo he worked for 10 hrs straight with no breaks, by himself on his first day that is against the labor laws now when my father rang up to "ask" about it the guy said "sorry, we are a small bussiness and can't aford to abide by the award" now the award is not a union agreement its the LAW the basic conditions set down by the goverment that all businesses MUST abide by the next time my brother went into work he was fired (in breach of unfair dissmisal laws) THAT is what unions are there to protect against we have a "libral" goverment (equivalent to the US republicans) the minister for industrial relations wants to abolish unfair dissmissal laws for small business so that people like my brother can more easerly be exployted he aslo came out and said that workers should be thankfull of any job they have unions are still VERY important
Labor unions don't make laws. Congress make laws. You don't need labor union to make class action lawsuits.
tell me exactly who PAYS for it? thats the purpose of union fees to pay for lawyers if you need one and with lots of people putting in a little they can aford it how could i go up against coles myer? they would just keep me in court till i lost everything
That is why unions are so bad. They hire lawyers to shoot themselves in the foot plus they have to pay for it.
yea more power to ritch fucks and if you don't have the money then you don't deserve any protection do you joeman? tony abot is right if you arn't ritch you take whatever you can get and suffer NO thats why unions exist to stop that sort of atitude and the fact that you say they should be abolised means they still have a lot of work to do
I smell classism. Okay. Whatever you say. Yup. All rich people should die. Nobody should ever start your own business. Otherwise you are rich. There are better ways to fuck over the rich I am sure. Let's just take over their property and divide it up. What attitude? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Like what? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Unions are a good way to represent workers, cause the union can't be sacked. Unions (over here at least) got a lot of basic rights for workers: 8 hour working day, no child labour, minimum wages, health insurance,... I don't like placing the rich against the poor, cause that is not too realistic in this matter. Over here, employers are united in an organisation, so are the workers. It makes it easier to reach agreements than talking with each person as an individual. Over here, there's social peace. Both parties respect each oter, there's a balance. They will check every major decision with each other. I think this is a mature way of dealing with each other.
Joe, the biggest majority of union workers are white collar now. The biggest union is a teachers union. All blue collar unions have been busted by corporations looking out for their own best interest. If you don't have skills in the this day and age, that does not mean you should have not have a right to a living wage (if you are willing to work hard (and I'd like you to argue that you work harder than most factory workers) then you deserve good pay). I agree that the market SHOULD dictate wages, but that obviously won't work, as the rich have grown by (god I forget the exact number sorry) at least 30% since the mid 70s, while the lowest class has dropped in earnings by about 10% since the mid 70's ( I was being conservative with those numbers, the real numbers are even more drastic, I don't have time to look this up as I'm about to get on a plane Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) engineers don't need to strike because they are in such great demand right now, and have such a strong important skill. I definitely understand that 'they have the skill they deserve the pay' philosophy, but what are you gonna turn to when one day your business starts to fuck you over, certainly you think thats possible. Then you are gonna wish you were unionized. Sorry I'm in a big hurry, going to Boca raton for a week or so, meet up with some nice rich white snobs (second riches county in the world)! WOO WOO! hehe ps. joe please restate your previous arguments (perhaps cut and paste) from the thread that wasn't supposed to be about unions just so we can have some kind of cohesive argument! thanks.
Unions don't sign new labor laws. Congress does. Unions negotiate higher compensations against employers, but they never consider the consequences. It is not always their best interest to get highest pay possible. High wages always result in loss of jobs. Getting more pay then you deserves contributes to inflation, so whichever union has better bargaining power eventually screwing over others. I know some flag wavers in California in road construction sites are paid $25 / hour. That is ridiculous. There is not better a bargaining tool than an economy with low unemployment rate. By negotiating higher pay, it results higher unemployment rate. Countries in FarEast Asia have very weak unions but they have all those benefit. Minimum wages are never need in US. Alan Greenspan is against minimum wage. The thing about benefit is no one gets anything for free. Companies have limited budget allocated to workers. The benefit itself is actually part of the compensation. Each employer on average spend $16,000 per year on benefits per employees. In theory, if there is no such thing as benefit that amount will add to your pay. However, not everyone will get $16,000. People with higher salary will get more. So "benefit" really is like socialism within a company. Workers with higher salary get more money taken away to contribute to that benefit than workers with lower salary. I rather get that $16,000 in cash myself and get my own benefit. Employers cannot unite in US. That is violation of anti-trust policy. That is the wrong way. The best way is to let free market decide.
Teachers have unions but our government has monopoly. The solution is privatization for schools. Wages has more to do with productivity than skills. Nothing afffects productivity more than capital investment. A lot of people simply just want to eradicate the rich. Without capital investment there is no productivity growth. The gap has increased but I believe the poor is any poorer. That is why I say there is no better bargaining tool than low unemployment rate. The unemployment rate for EE's has traditionally been between the 1's and 2's. It's not the skill but the supply vs the demand. There are more unskilled workers, but there are also more jobs available. BTW, EE's are no longer in great demand since unemployment rate has soared to 4.6%. Our government has passed a law to import any skilled workers into US a few years ago when we really needed it. Any good engineerings in any countries can get a job in US. So you are not only competing against people in US, but people from over all the world. IEEE's want that laws repealed but that won't happen. Companies love that. In that case strikes won't do anything.
You say 'low' which means that it is not zero. Without social security everyone between zero and low will have an awful life. Belgium and many other countries have invested time and money to make sure the life of the people between zero and low is livable. I can asure you that it wasn't about hundred years ago. In my opinion, which is of course formed by the values of society, leaving no one out is the only decent thing to do. Our labour laws are pretty much fixed, but the unions and the employers (the social partners) form agreements on all sorts of practical stuff, and this is made binding for all parties. Even if this is true, social security will catch the unemployed. If the rates get too high, there are mechanisms for the government to increase the level of economic activity, so unemployment rate goes down again. All this without the necessity of human misery. The only thing all people deserve, without looking at what they do or do not do, is the right to live a decent life. This means for starters not having to live on the streets.
It seems to me labour unions are necessary. However, in Australia our Maritime Union is a clear exmaple of what happens when a few idiotic union officials hijack the organisation for their own agenda. Those few are paid around AU$400,000 per year, and occasionally start strikes which cost the country hundreds of millions of dollars. If workers do not strike, those idiots use their union swing to screw them over. I recommend that a federal law be introduced which forbids any union from striking for more than twice the average wage.
Intresting... I work for a company and have for the last 21 years. I have never had a great thing for unions. Yes, I have worked unionzed jobs where they had it sewed up to where if you want to work you pay union dues. Most of the time you get dang little for your dues. Everything you need to do your job is a hassel to get from management. However, the job I work now is suffering from small mindedness on the management side. The things they are cutting to increase profit margins are chump change. No one really wants a union here but I see attitudes changing. It is a direct result of this small mindedness that has inspired this change in attitude within the work force. I hate to see it come but come it will. I shall this time vote in favor of a union. There is no other protection. Joeman, the time will come when you face this same situtation. Right now your companies attitude is good for you. It will not remain. Good luck...
If the government is willing to do its job of protecting its citizens, there is no need for an Union - since that makes it a sub government that controls the activity of a free person. On the otherhand if the government looks the otherway when companies circumvent laws and rules - then a localized union may be helpful. Unions in US are very powerful because of money they have collected (trillions) and the percieved voting power. They are the mini-kings of today. National unions are basically a country within a country. Imagine the teachers union where the members work for the government. Then why have a government?
I agree with that completely wet1. Businesses are not inherently evil...tis true. But they definitely are not out for the workers best interests. There will be times when one needs protection against the great power they wield, and there really is no other defense besides unions. Well thats how I see it anyways.
