as many americans know japan was a religious fueled economy until the end of WW2,america was able to completely turn that country into a republic and a world class economy.

america tries the same thing in iraq and fails.

why?

as many americans know japan was a religious fueled economy until the end of WW2,america was able to completely turn that country into a republic and a world class economy.
If I take a wooden table, smash it to smithereens and build a chair from the remains, can I still eat my dinner off it?

america tries the same thing in iraq and fails. Why?

Well, first of all, we haven't failed yet ...unless I'm mistaken, the war is still going on.

Second, in World War II we had the support of the news media and the congress which didn't continually degrade and tear down any and all efforts at winning the war.

Third, our Army is not permitted to fight a war ...they have to pussy-foot around and try to please everyone all the time in anything that they do.

If we'd fought Japan and Germany in the same way that we're having to fight in Iraq and Afgahnistan, we'd have lost that war after the Normandy invasion and after Pearl Harbor.

Baron Max

If I take a wooden table, smash it to smithereens and build a chair from the remains, can I still eat my dinner off it?

No, because it wouldn't be the same table.

Baron Max

Pre-cisely. ;)

Pre-cisely.

Ahh, but Japan was still Japan, and the Japanese were still Japanese. We didn't change that at all. Your "table anology" sucks giant donkey dicks.

Baron Max

Ahh, but Japan was still Japan, and the Japanese were still Japanese. We didn't change that at all. Your "table anology" sucks giant donkey dicks.

Baron Max

You only took away their military. How do you think the US would behave if the world took away all its weapons?

Ahh, but Japan was still Japan, and the Japanese were still Japanese. We didn't change that at all. Your "table anology" sucks giant donkey dicks.
Oh, I'm not so sure. It started well but sort of trailed off into absurdity at the end.

Mind you, that was deliberate, as it's an absurd question. And, besides, it still confused you - which, to me, is all that matters.

It would be interesting to see if Americans would welcome the idea of someone bringing democracy to them (since they are not a democracy), in the same way as they brought it to others. After all, if they did it, it must be a good thing, right? If not having a military was good for Japan, surely it would be good for the US? :)

...{At} end of WW2,america was able to completely turn that country {Japan} into a republic and a world class economy.
america tries the same thing in iraq and fails. why?I have told why in several prior posts, but briefly again:

First:
Ignorance of the fact that Iraqi marry their second cousins. This makes large family clans - their first loyalty.
Second:
Unlike typical Americans, religion is a daily thing, very important to their behavior. - Their second loyalty (to their variation of it.)
Third:
Lawrence of Arabia / British Foreign Office intentionally created a country called "Iraq" from three mutually hostile clan/religious tribes, (so Iraqi oil would be easier to control).
Result:
Iraqis have ZERO loyalty (unless on the US pay role) to the "nation" called "Iraq" by foreigners and by locals taking money to serve in its "elected" government. IRAQ HAS NEVER BEEN A NATION, and never will be until the several thousand-year-old pattern of marrying one of your hundreds, if not thousands, of second cousins ends.

Only a country as ignorant and arrogant as the US would try to make it a real country from any thousands of years old, tribal / religious, region.

In contrast, Japan has been a country for thousands of years. - That is the fundamental difference.

Billy T,

the fact that Iraqi marry their second cousins

Does that make Iraq the biggest bunch of rednecks in the world?

Well, first of all, we haven't failed yet ...unless I'm mistaken, the war is still going on.
we've failed baron.
the iraqi government is rife with religous influence.

Second, in World War II we had the support of the news media and the congress which didn't continually degrade and tear down any and all efforts at winning the war.
so, what is stopping the US from doing the same in iraq?

Third, our Army is not permitted to fight a war ...they have to pussy-foot around and try to please everyone all the time in anything that they do.
i'll agree. plus the insurgents fight an unfair war. they have no honor.


I have told why in several prior posts, but briefly again:
what prior posts?
this is the first thread i've seen on this subject.

First:
Ignorance of the fact that Iraqi marry their second cousins. This makes large family clans - their first loyalty.
this doesn't say much about iraqi morality does it?
Second:
Unlike typical Americans, religion is a daily thing, very important to their behavior. - Their second loyalty (to their variation of it.)
so it was with the japanese.
Third:
Lawrence of Arabia / British Foreign Office intentionally created a country called "Iraq" from three mutually hostile clan/religious tribes, (so Iraqi oil would be easier to control).
Result:
Iraqis have ZERO loyalty (unless on the US pay role) to the "nation" called Iraq by foreigners and locals taking money to serve in its "elected" government. IRAQ HAS NEVER BEEN A NATION, and never will be until the several thousand-year-old pattern of marrying one of your hundreds, if not thousands, of second cousins ends.
but yet we cannot make the iraqis see that. why?

Only a country as ignorant and arrogant as the US would try to make it a real country from the tribal / religious region it has been for thousands of years.
although japan had "urban" centers the general populace was tribal.
the culture of japan was infused with religion.
even their emperor was a direct descendant of god.

...this {Marrying second cousin} doesn't say much about iraqi morality does it?It says nothing about their morality. To the extent they practice what they say they believe, (perhaps a good definition of "moral behavior")* they are much more moral than the typical western, especially Americans, is.
...even their emperor was a direct descendant of god.Yes, and such a powerful force for keeping the Japanese united as one real nation that at end of WWII it was consider by all wise to keep the emperor on the throne.

Again: the fundamental difference between the so called nation of "Iraq" and Japan is:

Iraq has never been a real nation - only a region of mutually hostile religious tribes (and within these tribes often are mutually hostile blood clans.)

Thanks to the existence of the Emperor and one, relatively-unique, also unifying religion, Japan has been a nation for more than 2000 years.
-------------------------
*If you do not like this definition - offer yours - I would like to see what is the basis for calling marrying your second cousin "immoral."

you need to look into the general japanese attitude towards religion.completely different to iraqi.

Billy T, Does that {marrying second cousin} make Iraq the biggest bunch of rednecks in the world? It is a good start, but totally insufficient to qualify as a real "redneck." -
A real readneck must at least drink several beers a day. (Iraqi won't drink even one /year!). Also fundamental to being a real readneck is to have another group to despise and abuse, yet good enough to: cook your dinner; clean your house; sleep with, if young and shapely; etc.

Not completely a firm requirement, but almost so, is to drive a old pickup truck, (with gun rack in the back window of course), and at least two dogs* in the truck's back bed that "will hunt" (or sleeping in the sun on your porch when home).


I grew up in the deep South long ago - trust me - I know of what I speak!:cool:
------------------------------
*You really earn "redneck points" if one sleeping dog can fart without waking up. :D

Japan was never completely destroyed.

Japan was unified under one leader.

Billy T

It is a good start, but totally insufficient to qualify as a real "redneck." -
A real readneck must at least several drink beers a day (Iraqi won't drink even one /year!). Also fundamental to being a real readneck is to have another group to dispise and abuse, yet good enough to: cook your dinner; clean your house; sleep with, if young and shapely; etc.

Not complely a frim requirement, but almost so, is to drive a old pickup truck, (with gun rack in the back window of course), and at least two dogs* that "will hunt" in the back bed (or sleeping in the sun on your porch when home).

From what I have seen and read in the news, and from discussions with friends that have multiple tours in Iraq, you have a good description of the normal Iraqi, in his natural habitat, (the beer being the exception, and usually its a A-47 in the back of the truck and autos), But then I consider myself a Jack Pine Savage, and North Country Wood Wood Tic, and I don't drink several beers day, hell I don't even drink, and with your Ivory Tower Snobbery, you may have lived in the south but you don't know hell about a redneck. and it is R-E-D-N-E-C-K , hell I don't even know what a readneck is.

Billy T, The Iraqis are just like the Baptist Bible Belters in one very important respect, when they get the chance, they drink out behind the outhouse to.

Thanks to the existence of the Emperor and one, relatively-unique, also unifying religion, Japan has been a nation for more than 2000 years.

japan has more that one religion, it has two.

religion plays almost no role in modern japanese life.

but none of this explains why japane is a shining example of american involvement while iraq founders.

spurious.
japan was thoroughly decimated.
her economy was laid waste, her government destroyed, the japanese culture ceased to exist.

japan was thoroughly decimated.
her economy was laid waste, her government destroyed, the japanese culture ceased to exist.

Really? Japanese culture ceased to exist? How come it continued as it was?

Economy laid to waste? That doesn't really matter if the economic infrastructure was hardly affected. Do you know why Germany bounced right back despite the intensive bombing campaigns? Because hardly any of the industrial capacity was destroyed by the bombing campaigns.

Government destroyed? Just the head honchos. The infrastructure of the lower government was intact and used for the new government.

Really? Japanese culture ceased to exist? How come it continued as it was?
compare pre and post WW2 cultures.

Economy laid to waste? That doesn't really matter if the economic infrastructure was hardly affected.
agreed.
Do you know why Germany bounced right back despite the intensive bombing campaigns? Because hardly any of the industrial capacity was destroyed by the bombing campaigns.
operation paperclip might have helped.
also, wasn't most manufactering carried out in the ruhr?

Government destroyed? Just the head honchos. The infrastructure of the lower government was intact and used for the new government.
every member of post WW2 japanese government had to be approved by the US.

...you don't know hell about a redneck. ...I will admit I have changed and only went coon* hunting once, but hunted squirrels often in my youth. Hunting them and eating my kill was such a habit that I keep a pump air gun even as a graduate student at JHU, which I could use in the city parks.

When I married (a Norwegian) we began to live, rent free, in apartment that, years earlier, had housed the estate's servants. (I worked for owner Saturday afternoons in yard to "pay the rent").

We had only been married and living there for about week. I had been hunting and had two squirrel’s hind legs** in the skillet when she returned from the store. When she learned what I was cooking for our lunch, she was horrified and got sick. Then is when I learned that for Norwegians, there is no difference between idea of eating squirrel or eating rat.

I am sure you never spent a night half-drunk coon hunting and bet you never even ate a squirrel.
----------------------------
*the four, not two, legged type. :D
**There is very little meat on the rest of the squirrel, so I usually only ate the hind legs.

japan has more that one religion, it has two. ...religion plays almost no role in modern japanese life. ...I knew that, but thought one was much more common, or at least more openly practiced, at the end of WWII, which we were speaking of. If you count the really minor ones, like all modern countiries, Japan has many.

Now who is been a prejudicial redneck here, I was raised on a farm, I have eaten, coon, rabbit squirrel, partridge, pheasant, deer, bear, buffalo, elk, a rattle snake, rocky mountain oysters, chickens feet, pig tails, doves, and other things to various to mention in total. I have hunted with a gun since I was big enough to keep the barrel level and keep a sight picture, My family wasn't exactly poor, but we were a far piece for being rich, and any thing I could bring home to the table saved money, so if you really want to hunt come on over, and I will take you, but if you drink one drop of alcohol during the hunt in prosecution of a fire arm, I will kick your ass, and take your gun away, alcohol and guns don't mix, I have never hunted with anyone that drank alcohol while hunting, now after the hunt if you want a drink I will buy you the Best sippin whiskey known to man and serve you the first one my self, but you will have to excuse me, as I drink only Pepsi.

...I have never hunted with anyone that drank alcohol while hunting, now after the hunt if you want a drink I will buy you the Best sippin whiskey known to man and serve you the first one my self,...Thanks for the offer. You are "right on" about guns and alcohol - Why I only went "coon hunting" once. - One man in the group was "fully drunk" - scared the sh.. out of me. - I never went again. What I did drink, that time, was to control my fear. - I was too young and not smart enough to just say I was sick and going home.

PS - my father was an Md - a real "country doctor." I.e.paid in jars of pickles etc. more often than cash. We were poor, but never hungry. He would not let me hunt rabbit - something about "rabbit fever" (proper name is "tuliremia" or something that phonetically sounds like that.)

A lot of things on your list, I have never eaten. only thing I have, not there, is "pickeled pigs feet" They were free in the local bar. -Almost sure they were not cooked - just chopped off and tossed into a barrel of strong brine etc for a month or so, but perhaps they were boiled first. There is practically no meat - only bone and grissel.

Billy T

A lot of things on your list, I have never eaten. only thing I have, not there, is "pickeled pigs feet" They were free in the local bar.

Ya, those were on the menu to, but I didn't like them, and yes they are still served in the local establishments around here, and I to remember the country Doc, around here it was Doc. Lane, he delivered me for Half a side of beef, and removed my tonsils for half a hog. The thing is that I do miss those days, the food was good, the world was wide open for a bunch of boys to be boys, and I never felt poor, wish I could say the same for now.

Thanks for the offer. You are "right on" about guns and alcohol - Why I only went "coon hunting" once. - One man in the group was "fully drunk" - scared the sh.. out of me. - I never went again. What I did drink, that time, was to control my fear. - I was too young and not smart enough to just say I was sick and going home.


Thanks for the offer. You are "right on" about guns and alcohol - Why I only went "coon hunting" once. - One man in the group was "fully drunk" - scared the sh.. out of me. - I never went again. What I did drink, that time, was to control my fear. - I was too young and not smart enough to just say I was sick and going home.

In the group of people I hunted with, alcohol and guns didn't mix and if you wanted a hunting partner, you just didn't mix to two, in my younger days I drank my fair share, but I grew up and found religion, basically got a whole lot smarter.

...Doc. Lane, he delivered me for Half a side of beef, and removed my tonsils for half a hog. ...We got so much venision that we always had a rented cold locker full of meat - but dad neve fkilled a deer. (Renting cold storage lockers was a business back when few could afford a freezer.)

I knew that, but thought one was much more common, or at least more openly practiced, at the end of WWII, which we were speaking of. If you count the really minor ones, like all modern countiries, Japan has many.
okay. for the sake of argument i'll cede the point.

but this still doesn't explain why america was successful in japan and not in iraq.

The notion of just war explains it; that Japan initiated hostilities explains it; that American reasons for going to war with Japan were never discredited explains it; the fact that the American public was behind the war effort from start to finish explains it. There are so many fundamental differences, I don't see many deep insights to be gained from dwelling on the comparison.

Billy T, we canned it, I can remember the though of supper when mom said she was going to have canned venison on the menu, yum-yum.

...why america was successful in japan and not in iraq.Read post 10 again. - the difference / reason is clearly explained there.

You, like GWB, do not seem to appreciated that several thousand years of a culture with second cousin marriage prevents any form of "nation." - democratic, or communistic. - That produces only large family clans and tribes, struggling for power. GWB is simply ignorant of these facts but you now know. Think. Read post 10 until you understand.

Again: IRAQ HAS NEVER BEEN A NATION AND NEVER WILL BE ONE until the second cousin marriage ceases to be the nearly universal norm.

"IRAQ HAS NEVER BEEN A NATION AND NEVER WILL BE ONE until the second cousin marriage ceases to be the nearly universal norm."

Please provide evidence for your claim that most Iraqis are inbreeding as you describe, Billy T.

"IRAQ HAS NEVER BEEN A NATION AND NEVER WILL BE ONE until the second cousin marriage ceases to be the nearly universal norm."

Please provide evidence for your claim that most Iraqis are inbreeding as you describe, Billy T.

Interestingly, I read about the same thing in this morning's "Dallas Morning News". And, yes, it seems to be true.

But then again, think about it, .....the women go around all covered up so no one can see how butt-fuckin'-ugly they are, so arranged marriages are important. As the families are pretty close-knit, the cousin is a good match and easy to arrange, and it keeps "it" in the family, too.

Baron Max

The notion of just war explains it; that Japan initiated hostilities explains it; that American reasons for going to war with Japan were never discredited explains it; the fact that the American public was behind the war effort from start to finish explains it. There are so many fundamental differences, I don't see many deep insights to be gained from dwelling on the comparison.
these are all good points hype and on first thought they seem to be correct.
but reflecting on the matter leads me to believe that the japanese people wanted the change.
do you agree?

Yes. The Japanese were traumatically chastened from militarism. Iraqis as a nation have not been: The Japanese embraced their defeat through a peculiar cultural sense of honor in accepting shame that Iraqis lack in their own traditions.

See Embracing Defeat (http://www.amazon.com/Embracing-Defeat-Japan-Wake-World/dp/0393320278)

In the present situation it will be Americans who must embrace an inevitable defeat that is an irreversible product of our own ignorance and hubris.

Baron Max: "the women go around all covered up so no one can see how butt-fuckin'-ugly they are"

You are ignorantly and insultingly confusing Iraq with less secular societies. Yes, fundamentalism is on the rise in the wake of the American intervention. But that's just not the way it's been in Iraq, which has been for the better part of 2 generations a primarily urban, multicultural, Westward-looking, and secular population.

..., but that's just not the way it's been in Iraq, which has been for at least 2 generations a mostly urban and secularized country.

Yeah, under the madman Sadman Hussy, they've been forced to most anything that Sadman wanted them to do or be ...and you liked that????

Baron Max

there is something about iraq that just doesn't jive, it doesn't fit.
apparently the iraqi people do not want change.

no, i believe it is something else.
my opinion is that there is a group of people that do not want iraq to be a democracy and they are the most vocal about it.

Baron Max: "under the madman Sadman Hussy, they've been forced to most anything that Sadman wanted them to do or be ...and you liked that?"

Iraqis suffered less then. But no, I didn't like it. Still it was for Iraqis themselves to change their society, as I'm sure you would agree when it comes to the perverse idea of foreign intervention in order to produce change your own country.

leopold99: "apparently the iraqi people do not want change."

Iraqis are desperate for change. Life in Iraq sucks today.

"there is a group of people that do not want iraq to be a democracy"

What business is that of ours?

Iraqis are desperate for change. Life in Iraq sucks today.

What business is that of ours?
oh man, you can't be serious hype.

so, the iraqis want change and it's none of our business?

the same arguement could have been used with japan.
it really wasn't our job to clean up the mess.
we were under no obligation to rebuild japan.

i still maintain that there is a group of people that do not want american involvement in the middle east. what is that reason hype, seriously?

i fail to believe that people do not want to govern themselves.

as many americans know japan was a religious fueled economy until the end of WW2,america was able to completely turn that country into a republic and a world class economy.

america tries the same thing in iraq and fails.

why?A) Japan was not a "religious fueled economy" any more than England, who also had an emperor appointed by God, were/is.

B) The Japanese, like the Germans, English and Americans are a very hard working people.

Are you suggesting that Iraqis are not hard-working? I've seen no evidence of that.

I have told why in several prior posts, but briefly again:

First:
Ignorance of the fact that Iraqi marry their second cousins. This makes large family clans - their first loyalty.
Second:
Unlike typical Americans, religion is a daily thing, very important to their behavior. - Their second loyalty (to their variation of it.)
Third:
Lawrence of Arabia / British Foreign Office intentionally created a country called "Iraq" from three mutually hostile clan/religious tribes, (so Iraqi oil would be easier to control).
Result:
Iraqis have ZERO loyalty (unless on the US pay role) to the "nation" called "Iraq" by foreigners and by locals taking money to serve in its "elected" government. IRAQ HAS NEVER BEEN A NATION, and never will be until the several thousand-year-old pattern of marrying one of your hundreds, if not thousands, of second cousins ends.

Only a country as ignorant and arrogant as the US would try to make it a real country from any thousands of years old, tribal / religious, region.

In contrast, Japan has been a country for thousands of years. - That is the fundamental difference.

Can you say America is not a country because it is mixed with latinos and whites and blacks and asians, etc., all rivaling each other?

I'm sure Iraqis work at some level of productivity. Maybe they think it's hard work too? But I don't think that Iraqis work at the sustained level it takes to initiate and maintain an economy such as Japan or America.
Do you think that's Iraqi culture???
Do Iraqis by-and-large regularly get up at 5AM and work until 12-midnight? Maybe they do - but I didn't think so. But that's what Japanese, Koreans, Singaporeans, Honkonese and Chinese did and many still do. That's why they have successful economies.

Anecdotally, I've read over and over that in general Iraqis are lazy or at least not very hard working people. I've read that sort of comment from interviews with US grunts, from Japanese reporters, from BBC reporters, some English service men stated that emphatically "Iraqis don't like to work" and I even watched a SBS where some Shia tribal leader were complaining that it's Americans responsibility to do the work. All these fat f*ckers sitting around a blanket stuffing their faces with olives, cheeses and other nice food while telling the SBS reporter: "Why should we do the work? We didn't blow the buildings up why should we work all day to rebuild them? Americans should pay for and rebuild Iraq."

Can you imagine if the Japanese had taken a similar attitude!?!?


Do Iraqis get up at 5Am and work 18 hour days with no time off week after week, month after month, year after year, generation after generation?


"Now is the time to bear the unbearable..."

Ever hear of the word "karoushi"? It means to volenterally inadvertently work oneself to death.

So no, I don't think Iraqis are lazy but I also do not think they have the work ethic to create nor maintain an economy such as the Japanese have.

Michael

"Hard-working" is indeed a relative term. I could never abide as hard-working a lifestyle as the achtype Japanese. I doubt that typical Iraqis would choose to do so either. So I can accept this comparison as another non-judgemental reason why this heartless American experiment on Iraqis has failed. But it's a less profound reason than the unprovoked violation of Iraqi sovereignty, and the unprovoked, ignorant, and irreversible shattering of a nation.

So I can accept this comparison as another non-judgemental reason why this heartless American experiment on Iraqis has failed. But it's a less profound reason than the unprovoked violation of Iraqi sovereignty, and the unprovoked, ignorant, and irreversible shattering of a nation.
but WHY has it failed?
that is the question i would like to have answered in this thread.

Most simply, because the entire enterprise was built upon lies that have now been widely exposed. People are reticent to continue sacrificing their families and futures in the name of lies ignonimously exposed. In this thread there is already a long list of other valid reasons.

i can't accept that.
the iraqi people want change, and i assume to be in charge of their own destiny.
america tries to bring that to them.
and you say they don't want it because it's based on lies? :confused:

i seriously believe that the iraqi people are being fed a load of propaganda by the very people that do not want america there.

there is of course another possibility.
and that is the region is being kept in turmoil for the oil.
this implies the cooperation of several players, namely america, britain, japan, russia, and germany. all of these countries, especially japan, have a vested interest in iraqi oil.

so, which is it?

It's the lies.

as many americans know japan was a religious fueled economy until the end of WW2,america was able to completely turn that country into a republic and a world class economy.

america tries the same thing in iraq and fails.

why?

Preposterous! Everyone knows it happened soon after the American Civil war when Tom Cruise, posessed by alien souls that were angry from being exploded in a volcano, traveled back in time to become a samurai, and....

I mean, evidence, please.

"Hard-working" is indeed a relative term. I could never abide as hard-working a lifestyle as the achtype Japanese. I doubt that typical Iraqis would choose to do so either. So I can accept this comparison as another non-judgemental reason why this heartless American experiment on Iraqis has failed. But it's a less profound reason than the unprovoked violation of Iraqi sovereignty, and the unprovoked, ignorant, and irreversible shattering of a nation.
I totally agree 100%. I think that aggressive war is never justified.

I don't know if the American-Iraq war was totally without heart. I think the Americans thought they could turn Iraq into a democracy and then, with an American friendly Iraqi government in place, get cheap oil. Of course the Americans would pay for the oil - just not too much. This would have hamstrung KSA and Iran.

So it was probably for many Christian Republicans a "win-win".

Also, the American-Afghan war I do condone in that we were attacked. To bad Jr mismanaged that as he has everything he has ever been given to manage. I wonder how Clinton would have handeled that war?


Anyway, back to the work ethos, I don't expect Iraqis to work as Japanese do, as such they will never have that level of commercial enterprise. It just is not going to happen. But, that doesn't mean Iraq can not function. Just that, even assuming total cooperation of Iraqis, they still could never build a Japanese-like economy.

Perhaps unfortunately for Iraqis, or not, their culture will probably not allow for a functioning secular and free democracy nor for an efficient modern economy. Without a Saddam to crack the whip I really don't see Iraq even remaining as a single country. As such, I'm all for pulling US troops out or at least up to support Kurdishstan, if they wanted such support.

Michael

i can't accept that.
the iraqi people want change, and i assume to be in charge of their own destiny.

Did you ever ask what they want?

Even the reconstruction is not going as planned. Nothing is. The USA can not do this alone and I don't think that they can do it with the Iraqis either. I hate to say it but perhaps there is a reason why the ME has the sort of administration systems they have.


Iraqi reconstruction (http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/04/30/iraq.reconstruction/index.html?eref=rss_topstories)

Barracks renovated for enlisted soldiers were already in disrepair just a year after being handed over to the Iraqi Army, the inspector general said.

"Electrical wiring is pieced together to accommodate retrofitted lights and appliances that were not in the original design," the report said. "Newly installed fixtures, hardware, and appliances have been pilfered or abused. A number of electrical generation systems were not adequately maintained and were inoperable at the time of the SIGIR's inspections."

"The inspection found that leaks from the upstairs floor had damaged floor tiles and ceilings on the ground floors. An inadequate design, combined with low-quality fixtures and poor workmanship, made the facilities too fragile for the volume of use they experienced. The problem was compounded by poor maintenance and abuse by the tenants."


In my mind's eye I'm picturing the sort of mentality existent in ones typical housing slum in the USA (or AU for that matter).

Compare this to Japan. I've been to housing slums in Japan. They are not "pretty" as in picturesque but for people out of work these places are very well looked after. People keep their houses running smoothly and they keep them clean and their yards very clean. Very tidy. Almost surreal-tidy :) Even during the Age of Discovery Japanese were renown for being efficient and clean (for example Edo was immaculate, even the roads were watered daily to reduce dust - whereas as the same date unnamed Londoners were just as likely to be sold or tossed in an alley and left for the dogs as they were to make it into a grave). The Europeans considered the Japanese the most civilized people, other than themselves, they had ever encountered (the Japanese had this barbaric ritual of bathing daily! Something that confounded Europeans). The Japanese would buy a telescope from the dutch, take it apart, learn how to make it, improve it and then sell telescopes back to the dutch. Classic Japanese mentality. They were already forming a secular parliamentary-type government. I believe that the underlying tenets of capitalism were not liked by people in Edo but very much a part of Osaka-people.

Just some other things to consider when making the attempt to graft the results of post-WWII Japan onto Iraqi people.

Michael


When the Erbil Maternity and Pediatric Hospital was completed and turned over to the Iraqi government last May it had a new medical waste incinerator. When U.S. inspectors visited the facility recently, they found the sewer system was now clogged with medical waste, which threatened patient health and the local water system. The report said "the people initially trained to operate it were no longer employed at the hospital" so staff instead flushed medical waste into the toilets.

"In another example of chosen non-use, a new sophisticated oxygen generator and distribution system was used only as a backup system while hospital staff continued to use oxygen tanks that were not properly protected and secured," the report said.

The only project deemed to be functional and sustainable was a police station in Mosul.

The report said nearly all of the $37.4 billion appropriated by Congress for Iraqi reconstruction has now been spent.



sad really so sad.......


I'd like to know how much of that 37.4 BILLION lined the pockets of Cheney's buddies over there at Halliburton. Ooo they must be rolling in it. Didn't they move to UAE? They're not idiots I'll tell you that - getting the f*ck out of the USA while the gett-en is good.

Did you ever ask what they want?
isn't that the job of the iraqi government?

it's a no brainer that the iraqi government should be free of religious influence.
as it stands that isn't the case.

isn't that the job of the iraqi government?


Did you ever ask the iraqi people what they want? Answer, it is the job of the Iraqi government. Saddam clearly stated his opinion that he didn't want to be invaded by the USA.

Did you ever ask them: would you like to continue under the saddam regime before the economic sanctions or live in a civil war which will displace 2 million people, kill countless and destroy the nation?


it's a no brainer that the iraqi government should be free of religious influence.
as it stands that isn't the case.

Ironically Bush constantly refers to God in his speeches where he acts as the personified symbol of the government. Do we demand the Iraqi government to be free from religion while your own isn't?

Did you ever ask the iraqi people what they want? Answer, it is the job of the Iraqi government. Saddam clearly stated his opinion that he didn't want to be invaded by the USA.
saddam was a dictator spurious.

Did you ever ask them: would you like to continue under the saddam regime before the economic sanctions or live in a civil war which will displace 2 million people, kill countless and destroy the nation?
are you saying that the iraqi people do not want to have a government that represents them?

Ironically Bush constantly refers to God in his speeches where he acts as the personified symbol of the government. Do we demand the Iraqi government to be free from religion while your own isn't?
wouldn't know. i don't watch television.

this isn't a "bash america" thread spurious, it's a thread to determine why the situation in iraq is going the way it is.

saddam was a dictator spurious.

The saudi monarchy consists also of dictators. Pinochet was a dictator. It's rather an empty statement. The US has supported so many dictators in the past and still does it.


are you saying that the iraqi people do not want to have a government that represents them?
Have you ever asked them? Do they have a government that represents them?



wouldn't know. i don't watch television.

can you read?
Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html
All of America was touched on the evening of the tragedy to see Republicans and Democrats joined together on the steps of this Capitol, singing "God Bless America."

this isn't a "bash america" thread spurious, it's a thread to determine why the situation in iraq is going the way it is.

I'm not bashing america. I am explaining to you why the situation in Iraq is going the way it is.

The main problem seems to be that the US and Americans follow their interests, not those of the Iraqi people. Sometimes they meet, mostly they don't.

And Americans ignore this when it is pointed out to them.

can you read?
Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html
this is from 6 years ago.


I'm not bashing america. I am explaining to you why the situation in Iraq is going the way it is.

The main problem seems to be that the US and Americans follow their interests, not those of the Iraqi people.
it isn't americas job to follow the interests of the iraqi people spurious.
that belongs to the iraqi government.

that is what this thread is about, why can't the iraqi government bring about the will of the iraqi people.

this is from 6 years ago.



it isn't americas job to follow the interests of the iraqi people spurious.
that belongs to the iraqi government.

that is what this thread is about, why can't the iraqi government bring about the will of the iraqi people.

ah ja...and if the Iraqi president states he doesn't want a wall, the wall gets build.

ah ja...and if the Iraqi president states he doesn't want a wall, the wall gets build.
if you are refering to saddam he was a dictator. spell it spurious, D - I - C - T - A - T - O - R.

so, any ideas as to why the US was able to turn japan around 180 degrees and not iraq?

"any ideas as to why the US was able to turn japan around 180 degrees and not iraq?"

Note to readers joining this discussion here: leopold99 has received several direct answers to his excellent question, but is ignoring them, preferring to repeat the question without considering the answers offered.

"any ideas as to why the US was able to turn japan around 180 degrees and not iraq?"
Note to readers joining this discussion here: leopold99 has received several direct answers to his excellent question, but is ignoring them, preferring to repeat the question without considering the answers offered.Yes that is true. I have clearly (MHO) explained why in two of three different posts.

He has almost 9000 posts and never before have I noticed him being so obviously dense. In his last post, #61, it appears that he does not realize Saddam is dead. I am worried about/for him. - Perhaps, he has had a stroke and is now brain impaired? - His "by line" is: "Registered SENIOR user."

"any ideas as to why the US was able to turn japan around 180 degrees and not iraq?"

Note to readers joining this discussion here: leopold99 has received several direct answers to his excellent question, but is ignoring them, preferring to repeat the question without considering the answers offered.
that should read " received several different opinions . . ."
besides, the question was directed to spurious.


He has almost 9000 posts and never before have I noticed him being so obviously dense.
thank you, i'll take that as a compliment.

One big difference is the culture. The Japanese have a long tradition of submitting to the will of the powers in charge, call it conformity, or a respect for order. Our rule of Japan post WWII was fair and not overly harsh, we didn't have to deal with insurgencies, or foriegners coming over to fight jihad. The Japanese realized with humility that the west was technologically superior in many respects, and they sought to learn from us.

Probably the most significant difference is that Japan rebuilt Japan with our help. We didn't give out all the rebuilding money to US companies, so the Japanese felt invested in their future.

Another difference is that Japan was occupied by 350,000 US troops, more than twice that in Iraq now.

also japan is SMALL.the actual country is large but only 10% of it is habitable.
very easy to keep under control.

leopold99: "that should read " received several different opinions . . ."

That is inaccurate. I'll leave Billy T to re-iterate his answers if he chooses.

I did provide you with fact, and not mere opinion: That is, that the invasion and occupation of Iraq were initiated through Bush Administration lies to the American people and to the world. That the Bush Administration misled the nation is now an accepted fact in the public, in the intelligence community, and in Congress. This deliberate deception irreversibly sealed a moral defeat for the United States from the very outset. Both the American and Iraqi people have clearly expressed their abandonment of support for an unprovoked war of botched opportunism.

There's no fixing that, and that's a highly telling difference between the present quagmire and our decisive victory over Japan: The war against Japan was justified from the beginning, and the Iraq War was not. All cultural comparisons pale in significance to that key difference.

True, some places are geographically better suited to insurgency. Any theoretical Japanese insurgents would have to get supplies over the sea, but Iraqi insurgents can drive across the borders.

...Probably the most significant difference is that Japan rebuilt Japan with our help. We didn't give out all the rebuilding money to US companies, so the Japanese felt invested in their future....A very important part of that "help" was the fact that their US written constution prohibits a conventional military (and that huge cost).

I'll leave Billy T to re-iterate his answers if he chooses....As I have already done so once (see post 17, which re-iterates post 11) I will not do so again. Why should not L99 reply /comment on either (or both) to show his brain is still functional?

leopold99: "that should read " received several different opinions . . ."

That is inaccurate. I'll leave Billy T to re-iterate his answers if he chooses.

I did provide you with fact, and not mere opinion: That is, that the invasion and occupation of Iraq were initiated through Bush Administration lies to the American people and to the world. That the Bush Administration misled the nation is now an accepted fact in the public, in the intelligence community, and in Congress. This deliberate deception irreversibly sealed a moral defeat for the United States from the very outset. Both the American and Iraqi people have clearly expressed their abandonment of support for an unprovoked war of botched opportunism.

yes this is indeed a fact.
it answering the thread topic is opinion.

True, some places are geographically better suited to insurgency. Any theoretical Japanese insurgents would have to get supplies over the sea, but Iraqi insurgents can drive across the borders.
good answer.
as a matter of fact it is probably the primary reason.

as many americans know japan was a religious fueled economy until the end of WW2,america was able to completely turn that country into a republic and a world class economy.

america tries the same thing in iraq and fails.

why?

One word...

Stra-tuh-gee

Ever play RISK?

Every try playing extremely drunk/stoned?

That's why. :D

One word...

Stra-tuh-gee

Ever play RISK?
yes


Every try playing extremely drunk?

yes

The key to winning in RISK is owning AU. Once you own AU, or if you start on AU you will win :)

Interesting article comparing post-war Japan and Iraq.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2005/rebuilding-iraq-0316.html

1) Legitimacy of occupation. A formal war was followed by a decisive defeat and unconditional surrender. U.S. allies also saw the occupation as legitimate. Serious planning for the occupation of Japan began in 1942.

2) Consistency. Japan had an intact government. Emperor Hirohito declared war, surrendered and continued as head of state until 1971.

3) Cohesion. While politically diverse, Japan was socially cohesive, without Iraq's religious, ethnic and cultural conflicts.

4) Security. Japan, an island, faced no domestic security issues. "The hardships were staggering," Dower said. "But there was no terror."

5) Civil institutions. Japan had a "deep tradition of democracy and civil society," All the structures essential for reform were in place. Not so in Iraq, he noted.

6) Exhaustion. Japan was at war from 1931 to 1945, leaving 3 million dead, 10-15 million people homeless, rampant unemployment, malnutrition and disease. Defeat brought "liberation from death. Suddenly, the air raids stopped. They could start over," Dower said. "It was a psychological relief."

7) Clear goals for the occupation. "The Americans wanted demilitarization and democratization. They were clear about what this would involve--changing the civil code, land reform, etc.," he said.

8) Privacy. "Japan fell out of the public eye in 1945, as attention turned to the Cold War in Europe. They got breathing space. General MacArthur and his staff did not get involved in U.S. electoral politics."

9) External enemies. After 1947, the United States used the threat of Communism to persuade the Japanese government to support an extended occupation. Today, even after the end of the Cold War, 40,000 troops remain stationed there.

10) Economic conditions and policies. The Japanese economy was crushed after the war. Economic sabotage by Japanese took some toll, but there was no profiteering by Americans. Liberal economic policies inspired by the New Deal gave the Japanese government a larger role in the economy. This is not the "sweeping privatization" expected in Iraq.

Great summary.

I noted "but there was no profiteering by Americans." (ie: Halliburton)

Preposterous! Everyone knows it happened soon after the American Civil war when Tom Cruise, posessed by alien souls that were angry from being exploded in a volcano, traveled back in time to become a samurai, and....

I mean, evidence, please.

Come now, leopold, are you going to present evidence for your assertion?
Because I here have bundles about how Japan initiated its own industrial revolution in the 19th century.

What do you think happened to the Samurai and feudal system? Japan had a little civil war over the shift of power from argicultural to industrial. Japan would have been unable to participate in the war, if it hadn't developed an industrialized pre-war economy. Which they did, because they kicked the shit out of China (who stayed very, very backwards up until the 1980s or so), Australia, New Zealand, and the colonies in the East Indies, as well as forcing the US to drop two nukes.

So um, your basic premise here is completely unfounded.
Maybe if you used the Phillipines as an example, though they're currently mired in about a half century of debt....

Come now, leopold, are you going to present evidence for your assertion?
...
assertion of what?
you ain't gonna make me slog all the way through this thread are ya?

assertion of what?
you ain't gonna make me slog all the way through this thread are ya?

Sorry.
Your very first post about America's positive role in industrializing and revitalizing Japan's post-war economy by waging war on them.

as many americans know japan was a religious fueled economy until the end of WW2,america was able to completely turn that country into a republic and a world class economy.

america tries the same thing in iraq and fails.

why?
you mean this post here?
this one?
the one you see qouted above?

Yes.

i was questioning why, given the similarities, that we couldn't accomplish in iraq what we have in japan.

What we have in Japan? You mean what the Japanese accomplished in Japan.

You may as well be using Germany as an analogue "Gee, that asskicking we have them back in WWI & II really saved their economy!!"

Uhhh, not quite, no.

What we have in Japan? You mean what the Japanese accomplished in Japan.

You may as well be using Germany as an analogue "Gee, that asskicking we have them back in WWI & II really saved their economy!!"

Uhhh, not quite, no.
okay roman, go back to sleep now you're tired.

I agree. What we?
Japan was already united.
Japan was putting a democratic parliamentary government in place.
Japan was already an industrialized world player.

Iraq is not united.
Iraq has never been democratic.
What exactly does Iraq manufacture?