the credit for this list must go to the unbeliever.

this is the first ten there are another four hundred.

contradictions

Theological contradictions



1. Is there only one God?
Yes
Dt 4:35
Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
39
Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
[note:] see especially 2 Cor. 4:4, below]
6:4
Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD:
32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no God with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Isa 43:10-11
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
I, even I, am the LORD, and beside me there is no saviour.
44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have I not told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
45:5-7
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.
Mk12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
32
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Jn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 Cor 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

No
Gen 1:26
Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...
3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...
11:7
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Ex 12:12
For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgement: I am the LORD.
15:11
Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? Who is like unto thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
18:11
Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.
22:28
Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
Num 33:4
For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the LORD had smitten among them: upon their gods also the LORD executed judgements.
1 Sam 6:5
Wherefore ye shall make images of your emerods, and images of your mice that mar the land; and ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods, and from off your land.
28:13
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
Ps 82:1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
6
I have said, Ye are gods; all of you are children of the most High.
96:4
For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
97:7
Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.
136:2
O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth forever.
Jer 10:11
Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
Zeph 2:11
The LORD will be terrible unto them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the heathen.
Jn 10:33-34
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?
2 Cor 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the eyes of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


2. Is only God holy?
Yes
Rev 15:4
Who shall not fear thee, O LORD, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgements are made manifest.

No
Ps 86:2
Preserve my soul, for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.


3. Can God do anything?
Yes
Jer 32:17
Ah LORD God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
27
Behold, I am the LORDthe God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
Mt 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mk 10:27
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Lk 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

No
Jdg 1:19
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Mk 6:5
And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
Heb 6:18
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:


4. Does God know and see everything?
Yes
Ps 44:21
Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.
139:7-8
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Pr 15:3
The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
Jer 16:17
For mine eyes are upon all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from mine eyes.
Acts 1:24
And they prayed, and said, Thou, LORD, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

No
Gen 3:8-9
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
11:5
And the LORD God came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
18:20-21
And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Num 22:9
And God came unto Balaam, and said, What men are these with thee?
Dt 8:2
And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
2 Chr 32:31
Howbeit in the business of the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, who sent unto him to inquire of the wonder that was done in the land, God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart.
Job 1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan,Whence comest thou?Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
2:2
And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Isaiah 65:16
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Hos 8:4
They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.


5. Is God merciful?
Yes
2 Sam 24:14
And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.
1 Chron 16:34
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth forever.
Ps 86:5
For thou, LORD, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.
100:5
For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
103:8
For the LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
106:1
Praise ye the LORD, O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth forever.
107:1
Give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth forever.
118:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because his mercy endureth forever.
136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth forever.
145:9
Quote:
The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
Jer 3:12
Go and proclaim these words towards the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD, and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger forever.
33:11
The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good: for his mercy endureth forever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. for I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD.
Joel 2:13
And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Mic 7:18
Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger forever, because he delighteth in mercy.
Jas 5:11
Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the LORD; that the LORD is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

No
Num 25:4
And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.
Dt 7:16
And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee.
1 Sam 6:19
And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and three score and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.
15:2-3
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Jer 13:14
And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
16:3-4
For thus saith the LORD concerning the sons and concerning the daughters that are born in this place, and concerning their mothers that bare them, and concerning their fathers that begat them in this land;
They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcasses shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.
Lam 2:2
The LORD hath swallowed up all the habitations of Jacob, and hath not pitied: he hath thrown down in his wrath the strong holds of the daughter of Judah; he hath brought them down to the ground: he hath polluted the kingdom and the princes thereof.
17
The LORD hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down and hath not pitied: and he hath causedthine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries.
3:43
Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast salin thou hast not pitied.
Ezk 7:4
And mine eye shall not spare thee, neither will I have pity: but I will recompense thy ways upon thee, and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
9
And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will recompense thhe according to thy ways and thine abominations that are in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am the LORD that smiteth.
Mic 1:12
For the inhabitants of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.
2:3
Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family I do devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.


6. Is God the author of confusion?
Yes
Gen 11:7
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

No
1 Cor. 14:33
For God os not the author of confusion, but of peace.


7. Can God be found by those who seek him?
Yes
Pr 8:17
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Mt 7:7-8
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Lk 11:9-10
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

No
Ps 18:41
They cried, but there was none to save them: even unto the LORD, but he answered them not
Pr 1:28
Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
Lam 3:8
Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer.
44
Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.
Lk 13:24
Strive to enter in at the straight gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.


8. Does God ever lie?
Yes
Gen 2:17 and 5:5
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.
And all the days of Adam were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
1 Kng 22:23
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2 Chr 18:22
Now therefoer, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
Jer 20:7
O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.
Ezk 14:9
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD hath deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
2 Ths 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

No
1 Sam 15:29
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
Tit 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.
Heb 6:18
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.


9. Does God always do right?
Yes
Dt 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Job 34:10
Therefore harken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
Ps 145:9
The LORD is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works.

No
Ex. 4:11
And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Jer 18:11
Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Ezk 20:25-26
Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgements whereby they should not live;
And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolute, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.
Amos 3:6
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?


10. Does God want children to die?
Yes
Gen 7:21-23
And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
19:24-25
Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and Gommorah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Ex 12:29-30
And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharoah that sat upon his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
And Pharoah rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
21:15
And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall surely be out to death.
Lev 20:9
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
Dt 20:16
But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth.
21:18-21
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Then shall his father and mother lay hold of him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Jos 10:40
So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed as the LORD God of Israel commanded.
1 Sam 15:2
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they haveand spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
2 Sam 12:15-18
And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wifa bare unto David, and it was very sick.
David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.
And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
2 Kng 2:23-24
And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
Ps 137:9
Happy shall he be, who taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Jer 13:13-14
Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkeness.
And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
19:9
And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherein their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.
Ezk 5:10
Quote:
Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgements in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds.
Hos 9:16
Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall be the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Zech 13:3
And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

No
Mt 18:14
Even so it is not the will of your father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

I'll post some more later,I dont wish replies from you theists, just the knowledge that you may soon actually read your bibles.

Will you accept posts from agnostics, demolishing the claimed contradictions?

Demolish away, I'd like to see.

Right. I'll need to read them first. And it's well past midnight here. I'll attend to the first two tomorrow, or rather later today.

Ehhh...... this is no wrecking ball. I mean, obviously a lot of it is taken out of context and not to be taken literally. It reeks of weakness.

In persuasive writing, your style of communication should be honed to a particular audience -- the bible is no exception. It was honed to believers and non-critics. And therefore, the prose appeals to the pathos, which makes it easy to to pick apart by strawman-making heathens.

Have you read what happened to Bart Ehrman?

**Once he was a seminarian and graduate of the Moody Bible Institute, a pillar of conservative Christianity. Its doctrine states that the Bible "is a divine revelation, the original autographs of which were verbally inspired by the Holy Spirit."

But after three decades of research into that divine revelation, Ehrman became an agnostic. What he found in the ancient papyri of the scriptorium was not the greatest story ever told, but the crumbling dust of his own faith.**Find the resthere (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/04/AR2006030401369.html)

So in essence yes, please keep studying the bible, you'll be atheist or agnostic sooner than you think! ;)

Godless

The truth is still the truth, even if unspoken or uncommented. Those may be the true words of the Bible so I can't dispute them. All I can do is hope they're not taken to do or justify evil thoughts or actions.

Is there only one God?

In the "No" sense, God is speaking of the gods of most of the people, not Himself.

Is only God holy?

I don't get the contradiction in that one.

Can God do anything?

He can if He so wishes. If He does not, then He does not wish to. And as a God, He is no hypocrite to not go by His own rules.

Does God know and see everything?

Of course He does. As in, "..and I knew not" is probably meant as he was not told, or no one confessed to Him the action.

Is God merciful?

Just because one displays unsatisfaction doesn't mean it's unmerciful. Mercy isn't a concrete action. It is viewed different by everyone.

Is God the author of confusion?

Again, I'm a new Christian and don't understand this one. I must be missing something. I am confuzzed myself.

Can God be found by those who seek him?

And so be it, those that turn their back on God, so shall He at some point turn His back on them. You have to have a turning point. Someone can't just do as they please and hurt people all the time and expect God to send them to Heaven.

Does God ever lie?

God isn't proved to lie. And when the false prophet is sent, you can argue God is also sending a lie. It is a method to test the faithful. A test is no lie. It is a concept to test if man can separate the truth from a lie.

Does God always do right?

Of course, God made evil and difference. With no evil, there is no test. It's all planned. Satan himself works for God. Maybe he was kicked to hell or just told to go and do a job but Satan is here for a reason. He is the drill sergeant seeing what you got. If you can pass the test or not. He lies, decieves, etc. No tricks are withheld.

Does God want children to die?

If God orders death upon someone or something, it is meant to. It means they are done with the test. Or if they haven't finished, they will resume later or not be held accountable. They won't be sent to hell for not being able to recieve a chance to test or complete it. They will be in the same peace as they were before they were created. Face it, we are here for a purpose. And it may seem sad when a child dies, but we can all hopefully learn something from it, if not, the child's life and death is in vain and we learn nothing. Just as a child can neither be rewarded for not knowing the parent or the rules, so shall it neither be punished also.

I'll post some more later,I dont wish replies from you theists, just the knowledge that you may soon actually read your bibles.

Please do not :eek: . My fingers are getting sore from typing. Again, I'm probably not the best to reply to this since I'm a n00b xstian. I only know a little of the bible and it's not really a book I read a lot. I just tune into what God gave me mostly to judge what's moral or not.

does'nt it make you laugh, how the religious mind reacts, when faced with a biblical challenge.
"it is taken out of context and not to be taken literally" " can god do anything-He can if He so wishes. If He does not, then He does not wish to, He is no hypocrite to not go by His own rules."lol."Does God know and see everything-Of course He does. As in, "..and I knew not" is probably meant as he was not told, or no one confessed to Him the action."lol again" Is God merciful-Just because one displays unsatisfaction doesn't mean it's unmerciful. Mercy isn't a concrete action. It is viewed different by everyone." the religous are just hilarious" Does God ever lie-God isn't proved to lie. And when the false prophet is sent, you can argue God is also sending a lie. It is a method to test the faithful. A test is no lie. It is a concept to test if man can separate the truth from a lie."my keyboard is covered with coffee,I'm going to have to stop reading, it's choking me.
I had to read more, this is the clincher " Does God want children to die-If God orders death upon someone or something, it is meant to. It means they are done with the test. Or if they haven't finished, they will resume later or not be held accountable. They won't be sent to hell for not being able to recieve a chance to test or complete it. They will be in the same peace as they were before they were created. Face it, we are here for a purpose. And it may seem sad when a child dies, but we can all hopefully learn something from it, if not, the child's life and death is in vain and we learn nothing. Just as a child can neither be rewarded for not knowing the parent or the rules, so shall it neither be punished also." everything at my desk is now covered in coffee, the religious mind set should be label and kept for posterity as the funniest thing know to man.
still rolling on the floor laughing my head off, oh the pain stop your killing me, lol lol lol

These arn't quite contradictions, they're tooken out of context as others have said. I will break these apart tommorow, it's 4:30 am where I am, and i am very tired. Besides, is god killing the children in most of those, or is it demonic figures, or were they commited to evil people?

The whole argument is very mild, and hare-brained.

Have you read what happened to Bart Ehrman?

**Once he was a seminarian and graduate of the Moody Bible Institute, a pillar of conservative Christianity. Its doctrine states that the Bible "is a divine revelation, the original autographs of which were verbally inspired by the Holy Spirit."

But after three decades of research into that divine revelation, Ehrman became an agnostic. What he found in the ancient papyri of the scriptorium was not the greatest story ever told, but the crumbling dust of his own faith.**Find the resthere (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/04/AR2006030401369.html)

So in essence yes, please keep studying the bible, you'll be atheist or agnostic sooner than you think! ;) Godless

Wow, one guy jumped off a bridge.....that means we all will...?
Surely, you can do better.

No jackass, one guy and many other who study the bible for many years have come to the conclusion that the bible is full of it. It's contradictory, full of errors, and can't be taken seriously!.

BTW have you studied the bible for 30+ years? I'd be willing to bet, that your not even 30 years old.

Godless

still rolling on the floor laughing my head off, oh the pain stop your killing me, lol lol lol

I'm still laughing at those that believe we somehow *poof*ed here and nothing created us. Just as some people say you can't prove a negative, only a positive. In another sense, those that believe are scorned for believing in something while the ones who believe in nothing, what can be scorned about their beliefs?

What is your beliefs mis-t-highs? Let's make known your beliefs so we can scorn them and ridicule them in a public forum like 5 year olds. And we will laugh and ridicule them without a scientific basis for disagreement. Him that has an ear, let them hear it mis-t-highs.

It's a wonder their heads don't explode.

But there is a perfectly reasonable explanation, which is that the bible had many authors of differing motivations, beliefs, assumptions, and audience.

I'm still laughing at those that believe we somehow *poof*ed here and nothing created us.

Funny aint it? just as funny as the bunch of idiots believing that some deity just "poofed" itself to existence. :rolleyes:

Godless

I'm still laughing at those that believe we somehow *poof*ed here and nothing created us.

This is stupid. YOU are the one that believes we were just "*poof*ed " here, doofus. The rest of us believe in a natural occurrance of molecular chemistry followed by a long and arduous journey up the evolutionary ladder. All of which has plenty of ongoing scientific support, compared to your theory which has ZERO.

The rest of us believe in a natural occurrance of molecular chemistry followed by a long and arduous journey up the evolutionary ladder

...And who's to say I don't. Except I believe it was started by God, not a guy-like deity that is portrayed as shaping or molding the evolution of the universe with his hands, but I see the way most atheists see but think it was designed with a purpose or function. And what's with the namecalling? Next time you want to debate like adults, act like one.

Funny aint it? just as funny as the bunch of idiots believing that some deity just "poofed" itself to existence.

No, it may have been a natural occurence how He got here just as most atheists believe it's a natural occurence how we got here.

Who's to say I don't think like an atheist, since I am a former atheist and have been all my life until the past year. I try to place myself in your shoes so I certainly understand the atheist point of view.

Who's to say I don't think like an atheist, since I am a former atheist and have been all my life until the past year. I try to place myself in your shoes so I certainly understand the atheist point of view.please dont go dont that road as it is an impossiblity.
no you were'nt, agnostic may be and thats stretching it a lot.

I've never met one, really. By that I mean people I have known to be real atheists with a coherent set of beliefs who later swallow the religious message. I've never met one and I have never come across any evidence of the phenomenon in print. Of course there are countless examples of religious authors (authors who sell to religion on the basis of being aggressively religious) who claim they once were atheists or even had set out to prove religion wrong, but they mysteriously have left not one word in the public domain from that mythical time of their own atheism. The best that can be seen is a bit of early journalism that doesn't betray much evidence of belief one way or another. There are precisely zero famously atheist people who are now famously religious.

I know many atheists. The majority of them are very clear about their beliefs and have a clear and coherent philosophy which does not include any room for superstition or belief in religion. None of these people has become a religious. Of course there are millions of people who are atheists who don't make a big deal of it, don't write about their beliefs and don't expose them to scrutiny. This is the well out of which the “ex-atheists” emerge. When they proclaim their new religion, whatever it is, they want to make their conversion story sound good so they tell a big tale about being an atheist, why should we doubt their former doubt? Well, there are many different ways a person can be an atheist and nobody worries too much about orthodoxy or heresy. I've corresponded with very many people who claim to be atheists but who have a very mixed up set of ideas, if a few of them “get Jesus” I'm not going to be in the slightest bit affected, they never were coherent atheists, they never expressed an understanding of why there is no god, just an idea that they didn't believe the religions they knew about.

The mention that somebody who is now famous only for being the author of a book or books bought by the religious claims he used to be an atheist is not in the least bit impressive to me. They would say that, wouldn't they? “I'm religious, I've always been a religious and here's my book about what I believe” — it's not very impressive is it? Neither is it very impressive to say I used to call myself an atheist sometimes, but really I was just not that bothered with religion and more recently I've been converted to religion and started to read up about it, and my publisher thought it would be a good angle to say I'm an ex-atheist and the book is the explanation for my change of heart...

If Richard Dawkins wrote a book about why he had converted to religion then I'd be shocked and I would want to know the details. Richard Dawkins is a famous atheist. There are no famous atheists who are now religious. None. There are a few dozen famous religious people who were not famous when they claim they were atheists. Big bloody deal.

Don't give me any more accounts of these people who claim they used to be atheists. I know lots of atheists. They stay atheist.

thanks AU

What is your beliefs mis-t-highs?I have no beliefs, I'm an atheist, or was'nt that obvious enough, in my last post.
Let's make known your beliefs so we can scorn themif your still not sure, you could always go through some of my threads (http://www.sciforums.com/search.php?searchid=624023) to assertain my possition on religion and god. and ridicule them in a public forum like 5 year olds. And we will laugh and ridicule them without a scientific basis for disagreement.wow, did you get of you box, and take it personally, if you reread my post it's quite clear it a generalisation of religious people, yours and Makeshifts, statements were the ones at hand, to make my point, you only have to look here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=52700) to see how simular you religious lot are. Him that has an ear, let them hear it mis-t-highs. go ahead we are all open to scrutiny, but make sure you show one micro instant of evidence, for you assertions, to prove mine wrong.

I think these links may be helpful to some, were helpful to me

http://skepdic.com/atheism.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

Meanhwhile I found this too:

Theism is the belief in one or more gods or goddesses. More specifically, it may also mean the belief in God, a god, or gods, who is/are actively involved in maintaining the Universe. This secondary meaning is shown in context to other beliefs concerning the divine below.

The term is attested in English from 1678, and was probably coined to contrast with atheism attested from ca. 1587 (see the etymology section of atheism for details).

Views about the existence of God are commonly divided into these categories:

Atheism: It has two distinct, commonly used meanings:
Strong atheism: The doctrine or belief that there is no God or gods.
Weak atheism: An absence of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Agnosticism: The belief that the existence of God or gods is unknown and/or inherently unknowable.
Strong agnosticism: The view that the question of the existence of deities is inherently unknowable or meaningless.
Weak agnosticism: The view that the question of the existence of deities is currently unknown, but not inherently unknowable.
Deism: The doctrine that God created the world but does not interact with it. This view emphasizes the deity's transcendence.
Theism (second definition): The doctrine God(s) is immanent in the world, yet transcends it:
Polytheism: The belief that there is more than one god.
Monolatry: The belief that there is more than one god, but only one should be worshipped.
Henotheism: The belief that there is more than one god, but one is supreme.
Kathenotheism: The belief that there is more than one god, but only one god at a time should be worshipped. Each is supreme in turn.
Monotheism: The belief in one god.
Monism: The belief that everything is of one essential essence or energy. (see Hinduism)
Dualism: The belief that everything is of two essential essences or energies, or that everything has a complement, such as light and dark (see Daoism, also see Hinduism).
Pluralism: The belief that everything is of many essential essences or energies.
Panentheism: The belief that the world is entirely contained within God, while at the same time God is something greater than just the world.
Pantheism: The belief that the world is identical to God.

Within Polytheism there are “Hard” and “Soft” varieties. Hard polytheism views the gods as being distinct and separate beings, while soft polytheism views the gods as being subsumed into a greater whole. An example of soft polytheism is Hinduism.

Within monotheism there are exclusive and inclusive forms. Exclusive monotheism can be monistic (Judaism, Islam), dualistic (Parsis/Zoroastrian) and pluralistic (Christianity). Some forms of Hinduism and Neopaganism could be considered Inclusive monotheism.

Finally, the distinction can be made between belief in the existence of gods, and assertions about their benevolence or morality, or the belief in God as the summum bonum: see eutheism and dystheism.

I am not now sure what label fits my belief system, although I suspect none as my belief is not based on anything taught to me. Although no doubt there were outside influences acting on my unconscious mind.

My belief is 100% personal and not based on any logic, from reading the above I would guess the only logical stance is the agnostic one if we take that to mean...'Agnosticism: The belief that the existence of God or gods is unknown and/or inherently unknowable.'

I however for purely personal and without any logic, choose to beleive in a 'God'. For me though religion is man made and has little to do with God at all. I have no agenda for my stating my belief of making a post. If the entire population of the world believed something diffrent, it is of no interest to me.

What is of interest to me is why IS it so important to the religious and the Non, to demand that others share their view?

Unless it is to exert control of some kind over the masses?

I however for purely personal and without any logic, choose to beleive in a 'God'. For me though religion is man made and has little to do with God at all.

Then you are a Deist. Like my mother, she believes in a supreme being who started it all, but then does not partake in human affairs, and religions are just man made to manipulate.

Godless

Unless it is to exert control of some kind over the masses?

I know, it can be taken badly. Everyone, even after 60 odd years now, has still got the Hitler syndrome. Scared someone's going to talk them or the masses into something they shouldn't be doing. It works both ways. The evil have an agenda on spreading their evil thoughts on others for destructive purposes. While the truly good people that think they have something to share that might be helpful to others, try to spread their ideas on others in hoping it will lead them to better lives. And the ones who don't believe or have an agenda, they are just there. Doing nothing. No purpose whatsoever. So what's wrong in people spreading their beliefs if they think it will lead them to a better life? It is up to the discretion of the listener to discern if the word is harmful that is spoken or good. Not a by-stander. I come to the forums to have my thoughts maturely judged and analyzed and for someone to prove I am wrong. I like being challenged. When I was an atheist (BTW, judging by the info provided, I'd say I was a weak atheist), I loved challenging Christians with answers they couldn't provide and it was so easy because so many just blindly, without questioning, follow their beliefs. Now I look for others to scrutinize my beliefs but in a mature, scientific fashion so I can ultimately say to myself, "hey, maybe they do have a point", or "I'm kind of doubting my religion now", which hasn't happened yet.

I have no beliefs, I'm an atheist, or was'nt that obvious enough, in my last post.

So you have no beliefs, none to scorn? Even an atheist has beliefs, or grounds for it unless they're just too lazy to try to comprehend if a God exists or for that matter, can't comprehend it. You have to have some basis for your argument. Are you the type to judge, say, someone who steps out and tries to save someone in trouble while you aren't sure and just sit on your butt judging others for actually stepping up and doing something? It's easy to judge those which do while those which don't know they haven't done or believed in something which can be judged. I don't mind having my opinions judged unless it's just scornful, childish ridicule which is a waste of a post to me.

go ahead we are all open to scrutiny, but make sure you show one micro instant of evidence, for you assertions, to prove mine wrong.

No, I won't try to scrutinize your posts and I do not take it personally. The internet's such an impersonal medium and I don't take anything personally unless someone personally knows me. Sorry, as a whole, I can't prove you wrong because the God you think others see, isn't seen to you. And the God I assume is there, can't be seen, so therefore, I can't be proved wrong. So when you discuss the topic of God's existance, it's usually a stalemate. But often times, the greatest minds can go beyond known science and theorize, not just say, "well, I can't see it, so it's not there". If Einstein had that attitude, he wouldn't have gotten far. Conclusions are came to, they're not where you are, you can't see them unless you search for them. If the lazy mind sees and equation and says there is no answer, it is true, because there is no answer, it, by default, has no answer unless sought. But the truly great mind will see an equation and take it on, and in the end, will discover the answer to the equation and therefore, the answer exists. Maybe I'm drabbling on but you can't be lazy at these things and say, "screw it, I haven't looked so there is none". Maybe you get my point, I hope.

Don't give me any more accounts of these people who claim they used to be atheists. I know lots of atheists. They stay atheist.

Well I must be one in a million.

Then you are a Deist. Like my mother, she believes in a supreme being who started it all, but then does not partake in human affairs, and religions are just man made to manipulate.

Godless

No, I am not a deist cos this is NOT what I believe, not remotely! Don't stick your wannabe labels on me.

I never said I believed in a supreme being or that God didn't interfere in lives of indiviuduals or that religion was created to manipulate. You read so much into so little.

is'nt it about time you read your bible
1. Don't have one.
2. There are more coherent bits of fiction out there with much better storylines.

I however for purely personal and without any logic, choose to beleive in a 'God'. For me though religion is man made and has little to do with God at all.

VS

No, I am not a deist cos this is NOT what I beleive, not remotely! Don't stick your wannabe labels on me.

Hey!! dip shit, i've not made a fucking label dumb ass, what you state above is a defenition of a deist!. Dumb ass! :rolleyes:

Godless

VS



Hey!! dip shit, i've not made a fucking label dumb ass, what you state above is a defenition of a deist!. Dumb ass! :rolleyes:

Godless

[I]Deism:
"Deism: The doctrine that God created the world but does not interact with it. This view emphasizes the deity's transcendence."

NOPE THIS IS NOT WHAT I BELIEVE

My beliefs most closely match those associated with spiritualism but not sufficently so for me to call myself a spiritualist. These are the bits I relate to:


Quoted from web:
"REMARKS—As thus defined, Spiritualism is no narrow superstition, but an all-comprehensive System of Truth. It includes all true Philosophy, all true Theology, all true Religion, and lies at the basis of all true Science. It should not be identified (as it often is) with the individual opinions of its adherents or prominent advocates, who are liable to mistakes; nor even with the teachings of disembodied spirits, for these appear to differ as widely in their theories as do spirits in the body. None of them should be received as authoritative teachers, since each can present, at best, only his own views of truth, and these are necessarily limited by his capacities and stand-point of observation. Every individual soul must determine for itself what is truth'

As thus defined, Spiritualism is no narrow superstition, but an all-comprehensive System of Truth. It includes all true Philosophy, all true Theology, all true Religion, and lies at the basis of all true Science.[/COLOR] It should not be identified (as it often is) with the individual opinions of its adherents or prominent advocates, who are liable to mistakes; nor even with the teachings of disembodied spirits, for these appear to differ as widely in their theories as do spirits in the body. None of them should be received as authoritative teachers, since each can present, at best, only his own views of truth, and these are necessarily limited by his capacities and stand-point of observation. Every individual soul must determine for itself what is truth'

That paragraph says, in a nutshell, that what you believe is completely and utterly non-self consistent and worthless since you can never accept any source as reliable, and that you essentially are adrift in a sea of ignorance. Do I understand that correctly?

yes..and no...I view my source as reliable

me being the source

Being adrift in a sea of ignorance would place one in the same cateogry as Socrates who remarked "All that I know is that I know nothing."

Indeed! I have no problem being in same catagory as Socrates!

Socrates turning in his grave as I type!!! ;)

the credit for this list must go to the unbeliever.

this is the first ten there are another four hundred.



I am a bible scholar. A very good one.
I have listened to the KJV bible on tape over and over again for over 25 years. Covered the New Testament hundreds of times, and the old testament possibly close to a hundred times.
I briefly looked at what you typed. I could easily show the errors in what you posted. There aren't any contradictions when you understand it correctly. What you call contradictions are not contradictions. You just don't understand it correctly, mostly because scriptures were pulled out of context, and that is one of the easiest ways to misunderstand the bible.
I don't want to waste my time demolishing your supposed contradictions.
I have come to the conclusion, that if someone wants to go to hell, then let him go there. It is no skin off my back if you burn, atheist.
I know that God exists and that the King James version bible is His inspired Word.
[PS. According to the bible if you don't really love the truth and you have pleasure in unrighteousness, then you will be deceived by strong delusion.
You need God's help even to come to a knowledge of the truth, in this World that is deceived by Satan and his devils, which have telepathic contact to the minds of men, to test them.]

I have come to the conclusion, that if someone wants to go to hell, then let him go there. It is no skin off my back if you burn, atheist

I didn't feel like trying to answer it myself but I do think we should help others understand our beliefs and do think it's what being a Christian is all about. If being Christian makes you satisfied, then why not share that satisfaction or understanding with someone else. If you honestly believe someone will go to hell for not knowing or believing what you know, then why not share with them the knowledge. It is because of Christians like that that turned me off from it and couldn't answer my questions so I remained an atheist until I had to answer my own questions.

You need God's help even to come to a knowledge of the truth, in this World that is deceived by Satan and his devils, which have telepathic contact to the minds of men, to test them.

I believe science and what we observe is the truth. I think it is how much time and effort we put into it rather than our fellow humans which is the deception.

[QUOTE=ghost7584]

I have come to the conclusion, that if someone wants to go to hell, then let him go there. It is no skin off my back if you burn, atheist.
QUOTE]

You are the exactly the type of religious nut that gives other people who beleive in God a bad name...provide proof people burn in hell aif they are not christian?

God loves everyone regardless, religion is a man made thing, the bible was written by 'men' retrospectively blah blah, so what ever you read in it is rather irrelevant, it was NOT written by God. Man was here long time before the bible was, what were we doing then ay? burning in hell for thousands of years, I don't think so.

I am a bible scholar. A very good one.

:rolleyes:

I have listened to the KJV bible on tape over and over again for over 25 years.

This makes you an expert? Listening to the same BS over and over again without study of different sects of the same relgion does not make you an expert, the KJV is not the origional bible, in order to get the historicity of the religion you may also need to study, Latin, Greek, and read these bibles as well, and study them, it also may be helpfull if you learned Hebrew. ;)

I briefly looked at what you typed. I could easily show the errors in what you posted. There aren't any contradictions when you understand it correctly.

Even proffessed, and very well schooled bible scholars today admit there are CONTRADITIONS in the bible. Even the Catholic Church admited recently that not all parts of the bible need be taken "LITERALLY".

I don't want to waste my time demolishing your supposed contradictions.

Because you can't. Put up Or Shut Up!

I have come to the conclusion, that if someone wants to go to hell, then let him go there. It is no skin off my back if you burn, atheist.

How Christian of you! :rolleyes:

According to the bible if you don't really love the truth and you have pleasure in unrighteousness, then you will be deceived by strong delusion

According to "reality" if you don't really love the truth and you have pleasure in mysticism, then you will be deceived by strong delusion.

No "reality" in the bilble (http://www.infidelguy.com/flash-media-details-4-No_Reality_in_the_Bible.html)

Godless

I am a bible scholar. A very good one.nothing to scream about, most atheist are.
as well as scholarly on the qu'ran the vedas, the torah.
I have listened to the KJV bible on tape over and over again for over 25 years. Covered the New Testament hundreds of times, and the old testament possibly close to a hundred times.so you cant read then lol, sorry just my little joke, seriously though, you can say your well and truly indoctrinated.I briefly looked at what you typed. I could easily show the errors in what you posted. please do, thats what the forums are for. There aren't any contradictions when you understand it correctly. What you call contradictions are not contradictions. You just don't understand it correctly, mostly because scriptures were pulled out of context, and that is one of the easiest ways to misunderstand the bible.we get the same old story every time, from the religious.
but you forget the you have to witness to the unbeliever and make him a believer, so unless you show us, how are we going to learn.
I don't want to waste my time demolishing your supposed contradictions.
I have come to the conclusion, that if someone wants to go to hell, then let him go there. It is no skin off my back if you burn, atheist.your god made us unbelievers, who are you to say he's wrong, you are the one at fault for not showing us the error of our ways.I know that God exists and that the King James version bible is His inspired Word.
[PS. According to the bible if you don't really love the truth and you have pleasure in unrighteousness, then you will be deceived by strong delusion.then you sir are not a christian, it is you job to show us the error in our ways, James 5:20 “Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.” you know what happens to the unrighteous, and you sir are unrighteous.You need God's help even to come to a knowledge of the truth, no we need you help, god steps in once you've converted.in this World that is deceived by Satan and his devils, which have telepathic contact to the minds of men, to test them.]then you should help them.
http://www.victorious.org/lifedeat.htm
Let’s say that you are out at the lake one day and you spot a drowning person. What would you do? Would you ignore their desperate condition and turn the other way? Or would you throw them a life preserver? If you are the decent person I imagine that you are, I am confident that you would try to do something to save that poor soul.
God does not want anyone to be lost. “The Lord is... not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). This is why He sent Jesus to become a sacrifice for the world’s sins (John 3:16). However, who is going to tell them about this life-saving news? Who is willing to throw them the life-preserver that can save their life from the horrible consequences of eternity in the lake of fire? “...how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?” (Romans 10:14)

2 Ths 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:



I don't yet see where the inconsistency here is. :confused:

;)

I don't yet see where the inconsistency here is. :confused:

;)

2 Ths 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


God sends them a strong delusion, and deliberately makes them believe a lie, yet also at the same time declares that he is NOT the author of confusion???
Well, God CAN do anything, I guess!

God himself supposedly tempts no one, but finds it perfectly acceptable to go even farther than that to forcibly make them believe a lie?
Well, God CAN do anything! ;)

Is there evil, and the Lord hath not done it?

g-d is good AND evil. light AND dark. strong AND weak.

there is no definition that we as humans can come up with that would be suitable for g-d.

all things originate at the beginning.

g-d is good AND evil. light AND dark. strong AND weak.

there is no definition that we as humans can come up with that would be suitable for g-d.

all things originate at the beginning.

will you turn into a caterpillar if you write the word 'God?' whats with the g-d?

I am a bible scholar. A very good one.
I have listened to the KJV bible on tape over and over again for over 25 years. ...the King James version bible is His inspired Word.

So, I take it that you believe in unicorns then?

Numbers 23:22 (KJV)
God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
Numbers 23:21-23 (KJV)
God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.
Numbers 24:7-9 (KJV)
His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.
Deuteronomy 33:16-18 (KJV)
Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?
Job 39:8-10
Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
Job 39:9-11 (KJV)
Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
Psalm 22:20-22 (KJV)
He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.
Psalm 29:5-7 (KJV)
But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.
Isaiah 34:7 (KJV)
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

Numbers 23:22 (KJV)
God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
Numbers 23:21-23 (KJV)
God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.
Numbers 24:7-9 (KJV)
His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

these are all analogies (comparisons using like or as) referencing a powerful figure in local mythologies of the day not saying they actully exist, it is the way they spoke back then, if you read acient literature you would know that

here's a great book - "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman. the guy is a religion professor and an evangelical and even he can admit to the flaws of the bible.

Numbers 23:22 (KJV)
God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
Numbers 23:21-23 (KJV)
God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.
Numbers 24:7-9 (KJV)
His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

these are all analogies (comparisons using like or as) referencing a powerful figure in local mythologies of the day not saying they actully exist, it is the way they spoke back then, if you read acient literature you would know that

a comparison using the words "like" or "as" is called a simile

an analogy is something along the lines of - "baby is to parent as tadpole is to frog"

if you took english literature class you would know that.

I'm not English, so I have to make due with less inspired Bibles ;) - but I don't know what the fuss is over the "unicorn" translation. The skeptic's argument is supposedly that the text refers to a mythical creature as if it were real (thereby displaying some kind of ignorance), but it doesn't: it refers to an extinct animal.
Strong's 07214 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=07214&l=en): Ra'em (from Ra'am "to rise", possibly referring to a distinctive horn) - probably the great aurochs or wild bulls which are now extinct. The exact meaning is not known.
Maybe the King James translators thought unicorns once existed, and was a likely candidate for this unknown majestic horned animal. It's similar to referring to a species of hominid that actually existed as hobbit-like (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1027_041027_homo_floresiensis.html). Even if the word Ra'em was literally translated as "unicorn" (which simply means "single horn"), it's obvious from the descriptions that the Bible no more refers to the fictional unicorns of myth than those paleoanthropologists are referring to the fictional hobbits of Lord of the Rings, when they refer to the real thing.

I'm not English, so I have to make due with less inspired Bibles ;) - but I don't know what the fuss is over the "unicorn" translation. The skeptic's argument is supposedly that the text refers to a mythical creature as if it were real (thereby displaying some kind of ignorance), but it doesn't: it refers to an extinct animal.
Strong's 07214 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=07214&l=en): Ra'em (from Ra'am "to rise", possibly referring to a distinctive horn) - probably the great aurochs or wild bulls which are now extinct. The exact meaning is not known.

this is an auroch
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e375/lifeoffever/aurochs-400w.gif
i dont know about you, but i'd have trouble mistaking that for a unicorn. especially considering that the word unicorn means "one horn" and that myths of them were inspired by sailors who saw Narwhals in the arctic.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e375/lifeoffever/narwhal.jpg

something tells me that the bible authors had never seen a narwhal, but still believed in unicorns.

Maybe the King James translators thought unicorns once existed, and was a likely candidate for this unknown majestic horned animal. It's similar to referring to a species of hominid that actually existed as hobbit-like (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1027_041027_homo_floresiensis.html). Even if the word Ra'em was literally translated as "unicorn" (which simply means "single horn"), it's obvious from the descriptions that the Bible no more refers to the fictional unicorns of myth than those paleoanthropologists are referring to the fictional hobbits of Lord of the Rings, when they refer to the real thing.

if translators of the KJV thought that unicorns existed and translated the bible incorrectly to reflect that, it is only proof that the bible is full of errors and agendas, and that one should not trust that the words in it are the actual words of god, or even carry the same intent.

I'm still laughing at those that believe we somehow *poof*ed here and nothing created us.

*poof*ed here? That's pretty naive. No wonder you've had to cling to invisible sky fairies all your life.

Once you realise the error, kindly take the time to study. It will teach you reality and remove the need for floating omnipotent jews.

if translators of the KJV thought that unicorns existed and translated the bible incorrectly to reflect that, it is only proof that the bible is full of errors and agendas, and that one should not trust that the words in it are the actual words of god, or even carry the same intent.
You really are intent on making a mountain of this mole-hill, aren't you?
"The allusions to the re'em as a wild, untamable animal of great strength and agility, with mighty horns (Job xxxix. 9-12; Ps. xxii. 21, xxix. 6; Num. xxiii. 22, xxiv. 8; Deut. xxxiii. 17; comp. Ps. xcii. 11), best fit the aurochs (Bos primigenius). This view is supported by the Assyrian rimu, which is often used as a metaphor of strength, and is depicted as a powerful, fierce, wild, or mountain bull with large horns." (Jewish Encyclopedia: "unicorn") This animal was often depicted in ancient Mesopotamian art in profile with only one horn visible." - Wikipedia: unicorns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicorn#Unicorns_in_antiquity)
The same kind of depiction is visible at Lascaux, with the same kind of effect: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicorn#Unicorns_in_prehistory) again: "...since the species of the figure is otherwise unknown, it has received the moniker 'the Unicorn'". Words describing unknown creatures are no more accurate than pictures depicting unknown creatures. The first translators (of the Greek Septuagint, which the Latin Vulgate and therefore the KJV relied on) would have done some homework, found out that rimu/re'em was usually depicted as a one-horned animal, and simply translated the word-picture literally (monokeros/monoceras) for lack of any better knowledge. People believed such an animal really existed until at least the 17th century (and Narwhal horns didn't help to point them in the right direction). Jewish translators had the luxury of being able to leave the unknown Hebrew word without having to translate it. I'm certainly not arguing that translators are infallible.

I'm curious, though. Which word would you have used under the circumstances that would be more accurate than "unicorn" (considering the auroch is simply the best explanation available, not necessarily the historically correct one)?

I'm curious, though. Which word would you have used under the circumstances that would be more accurate than "unicorn" (considering the auroch is simply the best explanation available, not necessarily the historically correct one)?

i think "ox", "bull", "yak", "wildebeast", or "auroch" would have worked better. especially considering that these are all animals (maybe with the exception of the wildebeast) that toil and are considered to have considerable strength, whereas the mythical unicorn is usually described as having many magical properties, but not especially great strength. considering that the Ra'am or Ra'em was an unknown animal, i fail to see how a translator would see fit to substitute the word meaning "one horn" for its proper name. that just doesn't make a ton of sense to me,. i mean if i came upon a jewish name for a creature that i didn't know, i wouldn't just assume that it was a cattle-like creature that was inaccurately depicted in cave paintings as having one horn and then call it a unicorn. i would probably try to find out what it actually was. i would even go as far as to question why anyone is said to have the same strength as a mythical animal that no one really knows for sure existed.

If they did try to find out what it was, they would not have had access to your very nice pictures, they would have come across the only depictions of an extinct animal called rimu/re'em - an ox with one horn, or a "monoceros" (compare that with "rhinoceros") - that for all they knew once existed. You didn't think they thought it was a horse, did you? It's we who think a unicorn is horse, and that belief probably has an interesting history of its own.

a comparison using the words "like" or "as" is called a simile

an analogy is something along the lines of - "baby is to parent as tadpole is to frog"

if you took english literature class you would know that.
you will have to excuse the error when i made that post my signifigant other wasnibbling my neck, my consentration was nill. a mistake i shall not make again

If they did try to find out what it was, they would not have had access to your very nice pictures, they would have come across the only depictions of an extinct animal called rimu/re'em - an ox with one horn, or a "monoceros" (compare that with "rhinoceros") - that for all they knew once existed. You didn't think they thought it was a horse, did you? It's we who think a unicorn is horse, and that belief probably has an interesting history of its own.

i guess what i'm saying here is that if i saw a cave painting of a bull and it only had one horn because it was in profile, wouldn't i think of other bulls or similar creatures that i might have seen before and realize that it in fact probably had more than one horn. i'm guessing that if the pictures were so primitive, the animal also appears to only have two legs, how come they don't describe it as a one-horned, two-legged wonderbeast?

by the way, i think the rhino part of rhinoceras refers to the fact that it has horns on its nose or snout, and does not indicate any number.

i read parts of the parts of the bible and i had to say it was quite fun to read (the old testament i mean) however if i had to read the new testament again i would kill myself

Where and how old is the oldest 'written' bible?

the oldest "bible" featuring all the books of the new testament is called the Codex Sinaiticus. it dates from the 4th century. it is written in Greek and currently resides in the British Library in London. it is believed to be one of 50 copies of the agreed-upon books of the christian bible that roman emperor constantine had commissioned for the end result of the council of Nicea.

Thanks for that.
Interesting. so proir to the 4th century how exactly did god 'speak' to his people?

the oldest "bible" featuring all the books of the new testament is called the Codex Sinaiticus. it dates from the 4th century. it is written in Greek and currently resides in the British Library in London. it is believed to be one of 50 copies of the agreed-upon books of the christian bible that roman emperor constantine had commissioned for the end result of the council of Nicea.
charles you are right to a degree, however, there are older.

The "Old Latin Vulgate" around AD 157. used for nearly a millennium, until Latin ceased being a everyday language.

however Portions of the Old Testament in Hebrew go back several hundred years more than the Latin version. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, means we have manuscripts that exist from as early as 168 B.C.
The Masoretic Text, written in Hebrew, became the standard Hebrew text around 100 AD.

hope that helps you sniffy.

Doesn't help me in the slightest but I was hoping it might help others.
Interesting though....

Oh and one other thing. What does the Vatican hold in its vaults?

charles you are right to a degree, however, there are older.

The "Old Latin Vulgate" around AD 157. used for nearly a millennium, until Latin ceased being a everyday language.

however Portions of the Old Testament in Hebrew go back several hundred years more than the Latin version. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, means we have manuscripts that exist from as early as 168 B.C.
The Masoretic Text, written in Hebrew, became the standard Hebrew text around 100 AD.

hope that helps you sniffy.

yeah, but the point here is that the "bibles" that existed before that were either incomplete, or heretical compared to today's version of the bible. Marcion's Bible for instance contained the old testament, one book of the new testament, and all the epistles of paul edited to make it appear as though the Jewish god who created the world was not the same thing as the god that manifested itself through jesus. that's a bible that predates the Codex, but it's nothing at all like todays bible and Marcion himself was considered a heretic later on for having written it. so the Codex Sinaiticus is the earliest complete bible that "agrees" with today's version.
in addition to that, the latin vulgate is one of the most unreliable biblical forms ever to exist. many of the copies of it were printed so that the church's latin interpretation was situated side by side on three column pages with the greek and hebrew original translations, and if you could read all three languages, the passages completely disagreed.

Oh and one other thing. What does the Vatican hold in its vaults?

good question. as far as most people know, it isn't even fully catalogued, and access to it for research purposes or anything is extrememly extremely restricted. your guess is as good as anyone's.

they would have come across the only depictions of an extinct animal called rimu/re'em - an ox with one horn, or a "monoceros" (compare that with "rhinoceros") - that for all they knew once existed. You didn't think they thought it was a horse, did you?

Unicorns, (one horned horses), have been written about for millennia - and it's pertinent to state that biblical translators also know the difference between a "unicorn" and a cow. If it translates as monoceros, say monoceros.. Why, Pliny the Elder did, (and indeed agrees in part that it's horse):

"...An exceedingly wild beast called the Monoceros, which has a stag's head, elephant's feet, and a boar's tail, the rest of its body being like that of a horse. It makes a deep lowing noise, and one black horn two cubits long projects from the middle of its forehead. This animal, they say, cannot be taken alive."

They're not talking about an ox, stupid as they might have been, they did know what an ox looked like. Physiologus goes on to explain that the only way to catch a unicorn is to get a virgin woman and take her to it, and then it will put its head in her lap and go to sleep - clearly not talking about your every day average ox. This animal was clearly 'magical' in it's nature, and even went on to represent jesus. So, to ask the other posters question once more: Do you believe in unicorns?

But Pliny did not translate the Septuagint. It only supports the case that whatever people thought a "monoceros" looked like, they didn't share our conviction that it was mythical, and any reference to it was as good as any for an extinct animal they supposed they had the horn of. That the Deutoronomy text in Hebrew refers to a re'em (singular) with horns (plural) should have persuaded them to rethink their assumptions, but maybe they were as adamant that unicorns were real as you are now that they don't exist, and that determined their interpretation of the text. People going on about unicorns are repeating their mistake by trying to overcorrect it.

To teach the mighty Word of God, the Seventy assembled,
And finding no translation found the one it most resembled!

In 300BC on the isle of Pharos met the Septuagint: seventy Jewish scholars, assembled to translate the Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek, a feat they reputedly managed in seventy two days. Finding an obscure reference to a beast called the Re'em, the Seventy were unable to identify the beast. They had a description however:
"Fleet, fierce, indomitable and especially distinguished by the armour of its brow."

It seemed to these learned men that no beast quite fit this description so well as the Unicorn, and thus it made its way into the Bible. From here, the Unicorn made rapid advancement: obviously if his name was mentioned in such a weighty Book, his existence could not be denied!
The History of the Unicorn (http://www.unicorn-dream.co.uk/unicorn2.html)

A mythical creature, for sure, we would have found some freaking evidence by now if it ever existed.

Godless