Think you should read this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6584661.stm

So, as the religious loonies of all faiths all over the world are getting into high gear,
how do you rate our chances for a secular society based on humanism and freedom of will?

It seems that after the cold war many civilizations are spinning down the hell of their own fantasy of righteousness, and rationality is not valued as much as it was.

Maybe the superpower that remained should have been the USSR instead of the USA.

the sad truth avatar is that we as a people will never be unified because of pig headedness. the general concept of "my shit stinketh not".

Never say never. :)

how do you rate our chances for a secular society based on humanism and freedom of will?

Until people are perfectly free to kill other people who bother them, you'll never have freedom of will.

If a person plays his radio too loud, or has a loud party, and someone else doesn't like, then he should be free to shoot the loud bastard dead as a doornail. Until that happens, there is no freedom of will.

Baron Max

All I can say with absolute certainty is what I have seen, and most problems I have seen are from people not knowing or beliving something that is false.

All I can say with absolute certainty is what I have seen, and most problems I have seen are from people not knowing or beliving something that is false.

And you know all of the truths about all of those issues?

Baron Max

Thousands of Iranian women have been cautioned over their poor Islamic dress this week and several hundred arrested in the capital Tehran in the most fierce crackdown on what's known as "bad hijab" for more than a decade.

It is the talk of the town. The latest police crackdown on Islamic dress has angered many Iranians - male, female, young and old.

But Iranian TV has reported that an opinion poll conducted in Tehran found 86% of people were in favour of the crackdown - a statistic that is surprising given the strength of feeling against this move.

Police cars are stationed outside major shopping centres in Tehran.

They are stopping pedestrians and even cars - warning female drivers not show any hair - and impounding the vehicles and arresting the women if they argue back.

Middle-aged women, foreign tourists and journalists have all been harassed, not just the young and fashionably dressed.

read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6596933.stm

that's what makes Israel a bad place to live

that's what makes Israel a bad place to liveUnless you are a Judeofascist or a Christian Phalangist.

that's what makes Israel a bad place to live

The article is about Iran, not Israel. That's a different country.

Yet, I remain strangely unsurprised you two managed to confuse them.

There are two articles here which can be used for mutual comparison.

Hey Avatar, what's "freedom of will?" Isn't that what Hitler had?

Triumph des Willens is a good film, but you are, yet again, confused.

i wonder how much peacful place the world would have been without religion

My guess is not much, because space and resources would still be limited.
Besides I think it would not be possible, because magical thinking is a part of human nature.

yea but i think religion is a pain in the ass like women are said to be inferior and so on and i thin kits wrong in all this middle eastern religions how women have to dress i think that if men can drees how we want so can women

Unique to humans.

?????????

"Magical thinking" is unique to humans.

so animal's don't do any of that they must have some imagination

His book is obviously unmemorable and unremarkable, as you can't even remember one of his arguments, no rousing endorsement there.

yea but i think religion is a pain in the ass like women are said to be inferior and so on and i thin kits wrong in all this middle eastern religions how women have to dress i think that if men can drees how we want so can women

Well, that's not a requirement of religion. In soviet union people too were told how to dress, how to behave and what to think. I agree about the middle eastern religions.

"Magical thinking" is unique to humans.
We don't know that. Have you ever been in the mind of a chimpanzee? Or a dolphin?

waht is the point of magical thinking?

There is no point, it's just how our brains are wired up.

well thats pointless wouldent we be beter of without it

The article is about Iran, not Israel. That's a different country.

Yet, I remain strangely unsurprised you two managed to confuse them.

read the title
Discrimination in Israel is worse though.

How is it worse? Do you have any proof?

They do not let arabs visit jerusalem, they improsen arabs, they torture arabs, they do not give arabs civil liberties

Norsefire, and in every Arab country, they do not give Jews civil liberties, impose travel restrictions, kill and torture the Jews, they send suicide bombers, to kill the children, they call for the Jews in Israel to be driven into the sea, and want to feast on the bodies of Jewish children. All of this has been printed down in Arab papers, and delivered in Arab speeches, and codified in their founding documents.

I don't think that any discrimination can be better or worse than another, discrimination is discrimination and Israel and Iran are alike in that.

There can be a difference of degree . . . no one would say the UK is free of racism, but neither would anyone compare discrimination in the UK to discrimination in Iran. (Contrary to Buffalo Roam's opinion, Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians are recognised religions and their followers are treated relatively well in Iran. It's the Bahais who have their houses and holy places destroyed, are refused entry to university, etc. Fortunately they have been allowed to attend primary and secondary school in the last few years.)

Syria holds numerous Lebanese and Syrian political prisoners (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE240011998?open&of=ENG-SYR) and is no stranger to torture. The absence of civil liberties can be partly explained by the fact that Syria has been under a continuous state of emergency since 1963 (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/syria9812.htm). This lack of accountability has allowed the government to perpetrate acts like the Hama massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_Massacre) as a way of 'dealing with' domestic unrest.

There can be a difference of degree
Well, ok, you're right.

People like Zephyr, baumgarten and spidergoat will be the saving of Israel.

Everyone else, of course, is an extremist.

Flattered as I am, I think someone needs to be able to save themselves before trying a country. And preferably, the middle east needs to be saved by its inhabitants though some kind of internal democratic evolution . . .

Flattered as I am, I think someone needs to be able to save themselves before trying a country. And preferably, the middle east needs to be saved by its inhabitants though some kind of internal democratic evolution . . .

That is why I said the saving of Israel, not the saviours.:p

thee middle east needs to be saved by its inhabitants though some kind of internal democratic evolution . . .
or nuclear pollution!

sorry, it just rhymed :D

Norsefire, and in every Arab country, they do not give Jews civil liberties, impose travel restrictions, kill and torture the Jews, they send suicide bombers, to kill the children, they call for the Jews in Israel to be driven into the sea, and want to feast on the bodies of Jewish children. All of this has been printed down in Arab papers, and delivered in Arab speeches, and codified in their founding documents.

well, first of all, when the fuck did we say we wanted to eat jews? that's so nasty it's not worth answering


Did you know Israel had a higher rate of suicide bombings for quite a time? And did you know Israel kills inocent palestinians and even children but they say 'we thought this five year old was osama bin laden!) wow what bullshit

Israel tortures and improsens arabs, we do it back

Norsefire:

Look up the term "dhimmitude". It lies at the root of the issue, prior even to 1948.

"you started it"

"no, you started it"

"no, YOU..."

Children, behave.

Norsefire:

Look up the term "dhimmitude". It lies at the root of the issue, prior even to 1948.

look up the term 'faggot' that is what you are

"Whoop! There it is!"

Let it all out Norsie. It's unhealthy to keep hate bottled up inside.

Let me see, how to respond to such a dignified and well-thought-out retort..."I know you are but what am I"? LOL!

Norse, don't fall into Geoff's trap. Just ignore him.

By the way, dhimmitude isn't a real word.

How about "islamophobia"? Is that a real word? (Trick question: of course not.) Of course, "dhimmis" do indeed exist, so "dhimmitude" is a real word.

Anyway, what "trap" is it I've let Norse fall into? The one where I postulate a rationale for the problem at the outset - one which is supported by history - and let him express his hatred and possible homophobia? Wow. I'm more cunning than even I realize.

Anyway, good to have you back, DH. I've missed my punching bag.