Does anyone remember when they were little and experienced events that you were told were not real, but they felt real to you? Parents tell kids "it's all in your imagination" and kids start to believe them, and pretty soon we all grow up and are led to believe that the only reality is the physical one. This could be brazen, but I'm gonna say it anyways. I think our reality is built upon imagination to a great extent. . if not all of it. We shut it out and generally often consider anyone with an overactive imagination to be an eccentric or 'mentally ill' in many cases. I say most people have it wrong. Imagination is our wings. . .and our world is created around it. But before you say anything about this. . . I urge you to take a look around . . look at all of the inventions around you . . .absorb all the ideas that surround you. . .all the music, and a lot of the art. . .and ask yourself where does it come from? Cheers!

Or perhaps as children we are closer to a collective unconcious that we gradually lose as we learn more about our world and gravitate toward individuality?

Something ELSE to think about.

i wouldn't disagree with that either.

Maybe I'm just mixed up but I've alwayse noticed children had a rather keen ability to tell reality from immitation. What they make up in thier immagination and what is actualy happening seem to be pretty distinct to them. I notice fewer adults with this ability.

I've noticed that too, but I guess it's individually.

I remember when I was a child and we talked about various things, everything we said was meaningful, we sort of "spoke our minds" and when one of us talked the other knew exactly what he meant cause we all felt the same way, there were never any misunderstandings. Then a friend of mine said "there is no meaning with anything" and everyone seemed to agree except me, and I said to them "hey, I think you took the wrong way, there is meaning to it all!" but no one agreed with me, they seemed to have closed that option and after that everything changed, we didn't understand eachother in the same way as we did before, misunderstandings could arise pretty easy. Everything they said after that was more or less meaningless we didn't feel the same connection after that.

What I think happens is that we notice a hole in our idea of meaning, a hole of meaninglessness, and if we don't fill that hole then we feel meaningless (and trust me, that isn't a pleasant feeling), the quick and easy way of filling that hole is to accept it. "There is no meaning" cause when you accept it you don't have to go back and try to fill it with meaning so you won't have to feel that meaningless again. The experiance that we have of meaningless as adults are less painful than the feeling that we experiance as children, not because we have grown up, but because we have learned to accept it (more or less).

However, I feel that accepting meaninglessness isn't the right way, cause even if the hole is very big, and it takes alot of time to find the meanings to cover the hole, it's worth it. Cause as I see it, in each step we have a limited number of ways to get to the truth, so we can either choose to look at the truth with meaning, or the meaningless truth. There's no way to tell beforehand which one is the correct truth (cause there can only be one truth), but I trust the truth with meaning to be the correct one and one of the meanings of life may be to find the meanings to cover the hole. It wouldn't surprise me if the meaning of life was to find the meaning of life :)

Well, that happened to me once. I was about 3-4, we were passing a corner, and I told my mom that Ive seen this before (no more detail on what I've seen). My mom said it was my imagination. That was the first time I saw an ESP dream and it came true. I've had plenty of them ever since.

On imagination and dreams.... In a book on Witchcraft I read that life is a dream, and that is a strong wizard/witch who keeps this in mind most clearly for the longest time. Consequently, it may be assumed from this that realization of all wishes is possible, since we have that much control in our dreams, especially if they are lucid. I don't think this idea can be placed under witchcraft, it was more of a personal philosophy of the author; however, it is very, very close to truth, if not truth itself.

You have control over your own perception; if you want to see something, you can make yourself see it, if you want to hear something you can make yourself hear it. Is that reality? It's hard to tell.

Some people believe that their perception is all that is real, and that by changing it they change the world... others believe that they perceive the real world imperfectly... certainly there are reasons to think that if there is a real world, then our perception is not accurate.

So what do we choose to believe? That's really a personal decision.

Maybe I'm just mixed up but I've alwayse noticed children had a rather keen ability to tell reality from immitation. What they make up in thier immagination and what is actualy happening seem to be pretty distinct to them. I notice fewer adults with this ability.

that's been my observation as well, kids seem much more grounded in reality than most adults in my opinion. I notice this especially in their art, I'm constantly amazed by their inate understanding of form and colour. It seems odd to me that I knew this stuff as a kid but as an adult I had to train and study just to get back to that level. When (and why) do we forget this stuff?

sorry if i wandered a bit off topic, its just that our understanding of things as children is so profound yet we seem to forget and spend the rest of our lives learning just to see with that kind of clarity again. How we lose that (the almost instictual understanding of whats important or 'true') to begin with has always been a mystery to me.

Whenever I have a creative crisis I run it past a niece or nefew and they give me the answer as easily as flicking a light switch, as if it's obvious (and it usually is). The ease with which they access the answer to my 'artistic blocks' really amazes me.

When I was between 4-5 there was a power outage. I looked at the big TV in my house and I saw what looked like two ferret-sized white glowing tadpoles that were perfectly straight and crossed like an 'X' (with their heads at the top of the 'X'). It was
clear as day. My dad claimed that he didn't see anything yet
I stared at the weird glowing thing for a few minutes and then
got bored. Its entirely possible that I was seeing some sort of
picture tube component and my dad was just fucking with me.

I also remember that when I was little I was very susceptible
to hypnogogic hallucinations. Perhaps this is what makes up
the bulk of the weird stuff that kids see.

“The concepts of imagination and consciousness have, very arguably, been inextricably intertwined at least since Aristotle initiated the systematic study of human cognition (Thomas, 1998). To imagine something is ipso facto to be conscious of it (even if the the wellsprings of our imaginative creativity are in the unconscious), and many have held that our conscious thinking consists largely or entirely in a succession of mental images, the products of imagination (see, e.g., Damasio, 1994- or, come to that, see Aristotle, or Hume, or almost any pre-twentieth century cognitive theorist).

A venerable tradition also regards perceptual experiences, the main focus of most recent work on consciousness, as products of the imagination, whose primary function is to integrate sensory inputs and render them meaningful (Thomas, 1998; 1999). As Coleridge (1817) famously put it, primary imagination is ‘ the living power and prime agent of all human perception’. A better undertsanding of imagination is likely to deepen insight into the nature of consciousness (and, probably, vice-versa) “ Nigel Thomas ‘Imagining minds’ Journal of Consciousness Studies Vol 10 2004 No 11 p79)

A thousand years ago it was discovered for the first time that mankinds imagination was reflective in nature. In that it consisted of a collective or shared imagination and a more personal intellectual imagination. In those days man refered to this collective imagination as Gods imagination but have since learned that it was merely just a universal collective imagination that we all shared.

The collective imagination was the reality around them and they used their personal imagination to manipulate and try to understand the collective or "God" imagination.

Now as it is the year 3004 we on the planet zindy have much respect for our God like brothers called the human race.:D

heh, almost fell off my seat there.:D

zindy is spelled with an 'x'.

Oh, I see, Zindex.....hmmm sounds like the imaginary name of a brand of toilet tissue.

it's Xindy.

*sigh* and you call your self an alien. Man, the Xindian school system has really gone to hell.

Excuse me Mr or Mrs or Miss Buffys but I have bad news. The Xindians our half brothers failed to emerge from their nuclear phase successfully and their planet is just a charred cinder softly glowing green in the darkness of the Galaxy blupont. ( It happened sometime tomorrow and the "time paradox" corrected itself for the event)

And as you said their education system let them down badly.....

We did save a few of them and one of them would like to say a few words.

"Hi mom!"

Btw it is not me that is the alien. it is you, you godlike human alien you.

shheeesh ...calling your brother an alien......been watching to many "My friendly Martian" serials on TV me thinks.

Don't believe everything you see on intergalactic tv, I was just on Xindy this morning shopping for queblar day gifts. The only thing that blew up was the banapedlwimp harvest but it does that every year.

That's what you get for believing what you watch on XNN, slow news day, i guess they needed something that sounded dramatic.

hmmmmm.....me thinks possible IntraGalactic conspiracy. The A.L.T.O.P our CIA equivalent may be staging another of their imaginative conterconspiracy conspiracies.

Shhh...... they even moinitor the Intergalactic internet. Every word typed is collected and analysed.

Oops! Shit...there is someone at the door......oh....it's the A.L.T.O.P ...... t ......h......ey say that I am under arrest for invalid intragalactic gossiping and the minor charge of breaching what you call the prime directive.....boy am I in trouble.....imprisoned in a 2 dimensional zone for a possible half nanosecond of 1.5 dimensional time............ ...... ..... .. ...... ....... ... . . ....... / ..... ....
( means Help!!! I don't want to be immortal)

I know that it may appear that Buffys and I are having a little fun but I guess that is the point of it.

Imagination can and does provide so much pleasure.

The only restriction on imagination That I can think of is the restriction of Value or worthwhileness.

The last few posts have to me been worth while because it offered an escape in to imaginative humour (To me and Buffys any way).

Also the imagination and it's productions are very real even if it is just to go silly and create an intragalactic counterconspiracy conspiracy, discovered whilst gossiping.

The purpose of the extract I posted earlier on imagination was to point out that there is nothing which we do not imagine. Without imagination the world reduces to a bunch of electro-chemical signals in the brain. I don't know much about the physiology of Xindians, but I imagine that they imagine that they're imagining it all in much the same way we imagine that we imagine that we imagine we are.

I agree fully I imagine.

I have often tried to explore the concept of what I called Shared reality perceptions. Similar to what I humoursly refered to as collective imagination. ( or reflective imagination)

People so often disregard the commonality that we all share and determine it all as purely subjective but this of course is only focusing on the lack of commonality.

An apple in form and construction is the same for the Xindians as it is for us. This I would be very confident in saying.

Our planet exists for them to percieve as it does for us. Maybe different colours etc. but I would assume definitely spherical with a moon orbiting. The physics would be similar if not common.

Their subjectivity allows for their unique perpective of what we all share. And what we share is a common imagination that we can be imaginative with.

My thoughts anyway.

Yeah, this comes down to the philosophical assertion that all perception is theory-laden. Whether an apple is the same thing for all of us is not known, but I think it's rather unlikely, except for its very general features.

It's sort of strange I think that we can go down the subjectivity path so strongly and ignore evidence that suggests commonality.

For example if the subjective nature of perception was so extreme then producers of media such as advertisments, movies, music, cars, or anything would fail to be successful.

The fact that a movie can move it's audience as a collective would to me indicate a significant amount of shared reality happening.

The mere fact that you can understand what I am writing from your own unique perspective whilst attempting to share mine is in it self evidence of commonality of perception.

Using subjectivity as a way to justify disagreement I feel is poor philosophy.

Fair point. Clearly there is an amazing degree of commonality (so much it's almost hard to explain). But we shouldn't overlook the fact that every experience is unique.

When I read a word the meaning is not the same for me as it is for anyone else. The meaning is inextricably connected to, derived from, everything else I know. When I see an apple I see it my way, my visual image, my associations and so on.

So I'm not disgreeing about commonality, just saying that our commonality of experience is very general, the details are uniquely subjective, incommensurable and incommunicable.

I agree our commonalities are unarguable. But those commonalities just define the rules of our reality, we can't fly (unaided), we need food, we'll bleed when cut, etc. so in many ways we are identical. On the other-hand we are individually contained inside our heads and totally separated from each other. Though we so obviously share a great deal we are equally, utterly different.

I guess my point is that I think we can use subjectivity to justify disagreement, in fact I'd argue that subjectivity is the only justification. If we all saw and understood everything exactly the same there would be no disagreements.

Then isn't it just a question of balance.

As you know, maintaining a balnced perspective is an ongoing challenge that if successful allows us the greatest degree of sanity.

So often when discussing the nature of the mind be it imagination or thought or perception I read of views that to me seem to lack balance in perspective. Am I the only one who sees this? I don't think that this is so. Because so often arguement is enetered into to try and pull the other persons perspective back into a certain balance.

Any analysis of the threads in this and any other forum will show this I think.

I tend to think of the percentage relationship of difference and commonality,

I tend to think of it as a sort of 80% common 19% different and 1% abberant. But this is my view.

The other thing to consider is that even when considering uniqueness , subjectivity there is considerable commonality.

May be we just like fighting for our uniqueness and if we see ourselves as common we immediately try to state our uniqueness.

On the other-hand we are individually contained inside our heads and totally separated from each other. Though we so obviously share a great deal we are equally, utterly different.

Actually buff, individuals are not equally and utterly different.
There are four primary work styles, four primary temperments,
four this, four that (why four all the time... odd). Bottom line,
there are MANY commonalities about what drives people, how
they behave, what stresses them out, how they work, what
they feel in various situations.

say we have to balls of glass ( marbles ) they look Identical they are made almost identical. And even if they were exact clones of each other they will still be different.

The space they occupy is different, they are in a different location in 4 dim space. They exist in different time zones, they are clones but they are very unique.

The only difference between you and me is essentially that you are there and I am here and that this has existed our entire lives and our genetic history etc.

They once stated that over time one became two and those two unique perspectives have evolved in to an infinite multitude of unique perspectives yet all sharing the same premise.

I used to say the joke by stating to a child that we were the same age. The child would of course say "no we are not I am 8 an you are 40" and I would say but we are the same age because we are made of the same stuff that accoording to the scientist came into existance 29 billion years ago ( give or take a years or so) so therefore you are the same age as me.
( how does it feel to be 29 billion years old I would ask?):)

Hmmmmm....funny waste of mind time one thinks but if you look at the issue of uniqueness, we really aren't it's just that we wear our own shoes so to speak. And we can't physically wear the shows of someone else because of location.

And over time we express our uniqueness because we all move to a different rhythm and our expressions are unique only because of the time they are expressed and the knowledge that the unique locations has afforded.

One day I will express anger the next day you will and some times we will do it together, etc etc.

So as it is we have an incredible variation in diversity thaat really is just the same thing but infinitely variable in it's application.

Buffys I dissagree when you say we are isolated and alone for truely even our prayers are heard, just no responded to.

We are never alone and in some way everything is shared. There is no such thing as privacy.

I think the reason commonalities are focused on less is simply because we all share them, whats to say? If I want to go out for dinner with someone its not our similarity (we both need food to live) that dictates whether we go or not, it's our differences (whether their schedule allows it or if they are hungry at that moment, etc.). It may be an 80/20 split but the 20% is what matters because we have the 80% in common. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying our similarities aren't important its just there isn't much to say beyond the fact that we share them.

May be we just like fighting for our uniqueness and if we see ourselves as common we immediately try to state our uniqueness.

can't argue with that, we grow up hearing how special and unique we are from our parents so when we realize that the world would still turn even if we didn't exist it's a tough thing to swallow. The need to underline our uniqueness seems to fit into the 'commonality' area, kinda ironic when you think about it.

Actually buff, individuals are not equally and utterly different.

fair enough, my point is we're different. Feel free to remove the 'equally and utterly' part but I stand by the rest.

The only difference between you and me is essentially that you are there and I am here and that this has existed our entire lives and our genetic history etc.

yes and those a REALLY big differences, if they weren't present I'd be you and communication would be unnecessary.

Buffys I disagree when you say we are isolated and alone for truely even our prayers are heard, just no responded to.

Even if someone watches our lives with hidden cameras and records every word spoken but never makes their observation known you're still alone in your head (unless you're schizophrenic), there is no relationship without interaction but whether or not god exists and is listening is another conversation. I meant there is no way to crawl into one another's head and see things precisely as they do, we try to communicate, share ideas and feelings but its clumsy and imperfect. Language and other forms of communication can only bring across so much, ultimately we are the only ones who know precisely what we are trying to convey. In that sense we are alone.


sorry for the multiple posts, just trying to catch up.

Buffys....well said