ok,ive read all the crap on this site every lil interview,everything,this is quite the enigmatic site.im 19 now but in 1997 back when i was in middle school i remember seeing briefly on the news including cnn about "lights over phoenix" and seeing the weird footage,i thought it was neat and i always had a mild interest in ufo's.As of late ive been intrigued by this phenomenon,and so remembered this event and found the videos.Eventualy i stumbled on this website and im utterly confused by it,i found out the gentlemen behind it is a film maker http://www.pixelmonger.com/screeningroom.html on this link look for 14 ways to wear lipstick segment of the page,secondly i found this as well http://members.fortunecity.com/finagirl/whoisdanielpace/id2.html which shows a bit of who this person is "daniel pace" the updates to this lightsoverphoeniz site dont seem to be very recent two years old infact,and im curious what the hell is up with this site,and i wanted other people's opinion about all this business...

I saw the footage and these "lights" reminded me of the artillery flares that we used when I was in the Army... they behaved almost exactly like them, enough that if I had seen the footage without the UFO hype, that's what I would have assumed them to be....

i agree but i realy reccomend u look at this site for im more inquiring into the site specificly u should read what they have in this thing its very odd they say indeed many people saw flares and that it was only a part of what happened that night....but this site is awfuly strange

Often it's not what you know or don't know, it's what you know that isn't so that will hurt you. There are those that know and don't whant you to find out, and those that know and want you to know too. You decide who is right and who is wrong.

well what are your thoughts on this site? have u seen it and read whats on it?

Sorry, am on slow speed net here at the moment, and it seems to be a bit commercial for my tastes. If your reference is to the lights over Phoenix that got a politician boosted, yes I am aware of that case. The case of lights over Puerto Rico is even better. But these are only a couple in the thousands that are out there. What anyone does with the data is up to them.

I looked at the sites... I saw nothing very compelling. The webmasters are very talented, however. Nice sites as far as layout and use of html.

Hey Mulder,
I live in Phoenix and saw the lights/v-shaped object that flew over on 3/13/97. My wife and a couple of our friends also saw it - along with hundreds of others in town. Everything you read about it can be confusing, because there were at least two distinct different events that night. What we SAW with our own eyes was an ENORMOUS v-shaped formation - hard to tell for sure if it was just 5 individual lights or 5 lights that were all fixed on a huge black/transparent object, but my perception was that it was one huge object. It was by far the most incredible thing any of us have ever seen. Because it was hard to see the object, it was hard to tell how high it was but it "felt" like it was only about 1000 feet up, and traveling only 30mph, yet was completely silent. The only way I can think of that humans could achieve such a feat would be with a blimp-type object that floated on air, rather than having to be elevated by engines. This object flew directly over our heads, from NE to SW. It was not just a bunch of lights off on the horizon and definitely not flares. That event happened later, around 9-10PM I think and could've been flares for all I know - I didn't see it, but what we saw was unlike anything I've ever seen before and DEFINITELY NOT flares. Anyway, I'm rambling and not sure if you're even checking this post anymore since it's a few months old. I am also very curious to find out what that thing was that flew over us and will never stop searching, but so far don't have any answers. I also found the lightsoverphoenix.com website a few weeks ago and was intrigued but very dissappointed it seems to be abandoned. I've emailed and left voice mails to no avail. That site is the only place I've ever heard any mention of the story they tell with the Mexicans and the box. My feeling is that it is a hoax, but I'll probably never know. If you have any questions for me, my email is allenb47@cox.net.

Later,
BA

Bubba, do people in phoenix discuss the event, is it commonly accepted that it was a UFO?

it was explained away as a national guard exercise involving flares. the timing coincides.
problem now is bubba's "object"

Actually, it was not a national guard exercise involving "flares" flares do not behave as I have seen in some footage, and nor would our jets scramble to these "flares" Skinwalker is willing to swallow anything that is not a UFO. So I honestly would not listen to him.

Thank you for your first-hand account Bubba, it helps shine some light on the matter. That being said. I also do not believe it was ETI either. I think it was a test of classified aircrafts using antigravity propulsion. The triangular aerodynamic craft is quite telling that it is US technology.

Actually, it was not a national guard exercise involving "flares" flares do not behave as I have seen in the footages,

Unless you saw some "footages" that others have not, flares behave exactly like this. It was an event of artillery flares. Nothing more.

and nor would our jets scramble to these "flares"

What "scrambled" jets? Cite a reference that provides evidence of "scrambled jets" and not simply aircraft in support of a military exercise. After having participated in numerous military exercises in my life, I can assure you that simply observing jets in the vicinity or heading to the flares in no way suggests that they were UFOs. In fact, that would support the flare hypothesis, since the flares would be marking the target for the exercise.

Thank you for your first-hand account Bubba, it helps shine some light on the matter.

All it does is muddle the issue. If bubba saw anything, it was likely in relation to the exercise. Really... you have to expect the military to attempt to be difficult to identify in a combat operation.

I really wouldn't listen to crazymikey, Bubba. He appears to see everything he can't explain in the sky as some sort of alien ship or anti-gravity technology.

Unless you saw some "footages" that others have not, flares behave exactly like this. It was an event of artillery flares. Nothing more.

You said you have been in the army before, and you know how flares exactly behave?

Do they behave by moving in unison with other "flares" fall toward the ground, and then fly back up into the air and cover several miles while in the same relative position? Please oh army expert, tell me more about these flares.

What "scrambled" jets? Cite a reference that provides evidence of "scrambled jets" and not simply aircraft in support of a military exercise. After having participated in numerous military exercises in my life, I can assure you that simply observing jets in the vicinity or heading to the flares in no way suggests that they were UFOs. In fact, that would support the flare hypothesis, since the flares would be marking the target for the exercise.

Actually, the official explanation was not a military exercise. They claimed flares dropped from a A-10 "Warthog" caused the sightings? Umm, across 5 or so cities at the same time ;)

All it does is muddle the issue. If bubba saw anything, it was likely in relation to the exercise. Really... you have to expect the military to attempt to be difficult to identify in a combat operation.

I really wouldn't listen to crazymikey, Bubba. He appears to see everything he can't explain in the sky as some sort of alien ship or anti-gravity technology.

Actually, Bubba does not muddle the situation at all. He is not the only witness to see a V shape flying object moving in formation. There are many who saw the same, including air force pilots. Still think flares, eh? ;)

And I think he should listen to me - than you. Because, contaray to what you said, I don't call anything alien ships or anti-gravity technology that I can't explain. I've never claimed to having seeing a UFO, and believe you me, I've seen quite a lot of unknown things in the sky. While you call everything you can't explain - a weather baloon; a flare; a frisbee; a neon light; a flying pink elephant ;)

Do they behave by moving in unison with other "flares" fall toward the ground, and then fly back up into the air and cover several miles while in the same relative position? Please oh army expert, tell me more about these flares.

First, none of the footage I saw of the event depicted anything "flying." Second, yes, flares will all move in unison. They are fired by an artillery piece, they have a explosive event at a predetermined altitude, or are delievered by an aircraftat, at which time a parachute is deployed and they begin burning. If fired at the same time to the same location, this event occurs at the same time for each flare. They will "move" in unison as they descend based upon meteorlogical forces -shift laterally, suddenly drop a few feet in absence of lift, or even stall and rise in the presence of sudden lift. Air temperatures over the desert play imporant roles in the dynamics of a parachute.

Actually, the official explanation was not a military exercise. They claimed flares dropped from a A-10 "Warthog" caused the sightings? Umm, across 5 or so cities at the same time ;)

The official explanation is really irrelevant from my perspective. I didn't seek one out. I looked at the footage, and applied what I saw there to what I saw perhaps 30 or 40 times in my military career.

Actually, Bubba does not muddle the situation at all. He is not the only witness to see a V shape flying object moving in formation. There are many who saw the same, including air force pilots. Still think flares, eh? ;)

I think a lot of people want to be witness and are. We have footage of the flares... but none of the so-called "v-shaped object?" Incidently, the F-117 is v-shaped and also has an otherworldly appearance when viewed flying at night. It's engine configuration makes the sound difficult to discern at various perspectives of observation, which is a design feature meant to thwart identification by enemy ground troops. I've had many of these fly overhead in black-out mode.

And I think he should listen to me - than you. Because, contaray to what you said, I don't call anything alien ships or anti-gravity technology that I can't explain. I've never claimed to having seeing a UFO, and believe you me, I've seen quite a lot of unknown things in the sky. While you call everything you can't explain - a weather baloon; a flare; a frisbee; a neon light; a flying pink elephant ;)

I've seen many UFOs and believe each one has a more probable earthly explanation than an alien one. As a child, I witnessed a circular light that was many feet in diameter if it was only above the treetops that it slowly disappeared behind. It made no sound. Until I was 20, I believed it was a UFO from space. Sitting in Honduras on the Palmerola Air Base flightline in 1986, I saw the same exact object again. This time I was able to see it land. I had no idea that a Harrier jet could seem make very little sound if you were angled from it just right. Later I found out that Harrier jets were landing at a nearby base to my childhood home around the time I was 7.

Since then, I've questioned everything I see and refuse to give into anthing that defies probability simply because there is a willingness to believe.

Incidently, I don't buy the A-10 flare explanation. Those flares were too distant, too high and too bright. The A-10 flares are smaller with smaller parachutes, so they fall faster. Those were more likely to be Artillery flares.

First, none of the footage I saw of the event depicted anything "flying." Second, yes, flares will all move in unison. They are fired by an artillery piece, they have a explosive event at a predetermined altitude, or are delievered by an aircraftat, at which time a parachute is deployed and they begin burning. If fired at the same time to the same location, this event occurs at the same time for each flare. They will "move" in unison as they descend based upon meteorlogical forces -shift laterally, suddenly drop a few feet in absence of lift, or even stall and rise in the presence of sudden lift. Air temperatures over the desert play imporant roles in the dynamics of a parachute.

Skinwalker, flares do not dramatically move left to right, up and down, in seconds - parachute; or no parachute - And yes, many eye-witness reports have reported these "flares" flying over them; again behaviour, flares do not exhibit.

The official explanation is really irrelevant from my perspective. I didn't seek one out. I looked at the footage, and applied what I saw there to what I saw perhaps 30 or 40 times in my military career.

Wait, it is relavant. If you say this was a large-scale military exercise involving flares, which apparently was conducted over the skies of 5 different cities. Why would the government lie about it?


I think a lot of people want to be witness and are. We have footage of the flares... but none of the so-called "v-shaped object?" Incidently, the F-117 is v-shaped and also has an otherworldly appearance when viewed flying at night. It's engine configuration makes the sound difficult to discern at various perspectives of observation, which is a design feature meant to thwart identification by enemy ground troops. I've had many of these fly overhead in black-out mode.

It's not just isolated cases of "people" there's quite a lot of unrelated eye-witness testimony, that attest to the same. Perhaps, it is you, who wants to believe it is a "flare"

It may have been a F-117 testing out new flight technology, like anti-gravity propulsion. However, eye-witness testimony, suggests an object much more larger - and we'll not get into the angle of elevation fallacy - this object was flying low and quite slow according to it's witnesses:

"Trig Johnston, 50, is a retired commercial airline pilot who lives in north Scottsdale. His 22-year-old son was looking for Comet Hale-Bopp that night when he noticed the lights and told his dad.

"I looked up and remember saying out loud, "I'm going to chalk this up to an illusion.' It was the size of 25 airliners, moving at about 100 knots at maybe 5,000 feet, and it didn't make a sound.

I've flown 747s across oceans and not seen anything like I saw that night," Johnston said. "

Dr. X is a physician who lives near Squaw Peak in Phoenix and asked to remain anonymous for fear of ridicule.

Her home has an elevated, panoramic view of the Valley, and she has some of the best known videotape and photographs of the lights. Though she had no prior interest in UFOs, the episode prompted her to begin her own investigation.

"I think what happened is mind-boggling," she said. "I'm trying to be as scientific as I can, and a number of things just don't compute."

I'm not given to an otherworldly answer. But neither do I think these four people and so many others who saw the lights are all exaggerating or delusional. "

"Max Saracen, 34, is a real estate consultant who lives in north Phoenix. He and his wife, Shahla, were driving west on Deer Valley Road when they saw a huge triangular craft. They pulled off the road, got out and watched it pass overhead. "It was very spooky -- this gigantic ship blocking out the stars and silently creeping across the sky. I don't know of any aircraft with silent engines."

I've seen many UFOs and believe each one has a more probable earthly explanation than an alien one. As a child, I witnessed a circular light that was many feet in diameter if it was only above the treetops that it slowly disappeared behind. It made no sound. Until I was 20, I believed it was a UFO from space. Sitting in Honduras on the Palmerola Air Base flightline in 1986, I saw the same exact object again. This time I was able to see it land. I had no idea that a Harrier jet could seem make very little sound if you were angled from it just right. Later I found out that Harrier jets were landing at a nearby base to my childhood home around the time I was 7.

Since then, I've questioned everything I see and refuse to give into anthing that defies probability simply because there is a willingness to believe.

Incidently, I don't buy the A-10 flare explanation. Those flares were too distant, too high and too bright. The A-10 flares are smaller with smaller parachutes, so they fall faster. Those were more likely to be Artillery flares.

Skinwalker, it does not mean because the UFO's you have seen, when you were 7 mind you, have an ordinary earthly explanation, that all UFO's do as well. There is a lot of UFO encounters that can be explained, but, there is also a lot of UFO encounters that cannot be explained.

http://members.aol.com/jeff1070/wotw.html

Radio's War of the Worlds Broadcast (1938)

Patrolman John Morrison was on duty at the switchboard in the Bronx Police Headquarters when, as he afterward expressed it, all the lines became busy at once. Among the first who answered was a man who informed him:

"They're bombing New Jersey!"

"How do you know?" Patrolman Morrison inquired.

"I heard it on the radio," the voice at the other end of the wire replied. "Then I went to the roof and I could see the smoke from the bombs, drifting over toward New York. What shall I do?"


I'm always amazed by the gullibility of some among us.

Greco, seeing as that has nothing to do with this topic. I can assume you, you are trying to call the witnesses of this UFO sighting gullible. So simply because someone in 1938 said "Then I went to the roof and I could see the smoke from the bombs, drifting over toward New York."

I could play that back at you, and say: Someone went to the roof, and said, "I could see smoke from the bombs, drifting towards me --- but no don't worry, it's probably just a weather baloon ---- KABOOM!"

I'm actually amazed how you ignore all the data, and testimony. Have you ever seen the video? What's the word for that? Ah, ignroant.

Ah, ignroant

Hm, look who's calling the kettle black.

Mikey the lights over Phoenix were investigated and found to be flares, now why do you think a bunch of aliens would put their headlights on? Because it was dark and they had lost their way? Or the aliens thought the flares were intelligent and they were trying to communicate with them?

I have found in life that the simplest explanation is true most of the time.

Mikey the lights over Phoenix were investigated and found to be flares, now why do you think a bunch of aliens would put their headlights on? Because it was dark and they had lost their way? Or the aliens thought the flares were intelligent and they were trying to communicate with them?

Just like Roswell was investigated and proved to be a "weather baloon" right?
Do you need a 2nd hand investigation to tell you, what you should be working out yourself?

Look at the data:

Lights drastically move up and down, left, and right, in seconds. Lights fly over hundreds of people's heads - in around 5 cities. You going to have a hard time telling me that was a flare. I'm not stupid :)

Dozens of witness testimony of large triangular and spherical ships. Many close encounter accounts of football field size ships flying over peoples heads.

"Trig Johnston, 50, is a retired commercial airline pilot who lives in north Scottsdale. His 22-year-old son was looking for Comet Hale-Bopp that night when he noticed the lights and told his dad.

"I looked up and remember saying out loud, "I'm going to chalk this up to an illusion.' It was the size of 25 airliners, moving at about 100 knots at maybe 5,000 feet, and it didn't make a sound.

Incidentally we have a witness here(bubba) who thinks the flare theory is complete baloney. It sure sounds like baloney too.

Oh come on, are you that gullible, or can't you think for yourself?

It is beginning to look like you are flogging a dead dog Mikey, I have said it before, if they don't understand the evidence, they never will.
:D

People that constantly look up in the sky stumble alot.

And people who only look at where they place their feet run into things and fail to
observe what is happening around them.

Ergo we combine the two to

"Know where your feet are and make sure you're on solid ground before looking up in the sky"

meaning make sure your theses is solidly based on evidence before revealing it.

do you have solid evidence they were "flares" greco?

do you have solid evidence they were "flares" greco?

Now there's a typical pseudoscience retort: "you can't prove my theory wrong, and your theory, however more probable, is not correct becuase my belief is stronger than yours."

Pseudoscience.

LoL, Skinwalker, do you have any other words in your vocabulary, other than pseudoscience, cultist and spurious? That's all we hear :D
Not only do you use the same words all the time, you say the same things all the time. You have no idea how boring that is to read!

I saw the footage and these "lights" reminded me of the artillery flares that we used when I was in the Army... they behaved almost exactly like them, enough that if I had seen the footage without the UFO hype, that's what I would have assumed them to be....

I live in Phoenix, and have since '96. I was here during the whole lights over phoenix thing, it was a pretty big deal in the news, the Governor spoke out about it and everything. In the end, it was in fact found to be the very flares you mentioned.

Luke Airforce base here in Arizona (not far out of Phoenix) is the largest F-16 training center in the nation, and apparently it was part of some exercise.

You can all bicker back and forth all you want and the people that want to believe the media and the governor go right ahead too. But for the 100s or 1000s of people in Arizona that saw the enormous v-shaped object pass directly over the top of them, there is absolutely no doubt in our minds that they were not flares. Flares do not fly across the sky in formation, they drop down and blow randomly with the wind. What I saw with my own eyes was a HUGE v-shaped object that flew right over the top of me very low, slow and silent with 5 lights along the front edge. As I mentioned earlier though, I couldn't tell for sure if there was actually a solid object connecting the 5 lights because it seemed that if there was an object there, it was transparent, or exactly the same color as the night sky and I can't recall for sure if I could see the stars through it or not. I was dumbfounded at the time and my memory is clouded now by all the other reports I've read. Man, what I'd give to have had a video camera with me at the time. There are several good sights out there about the phoenix lights that detail the fact that there were numerous reportings that night by very credible witnesses to many different events. The two main events were 1) The huge v-shaped object that passed over me (in north Phoenix - 32nd St. & Cactus) and 2) The lights out on the horizon which were dismissed as flares, and I believe were flares. The first event occurred around 8:45PM and the second was around 10PM and not in the same part of town. I did not see the flares or anything else later that night. I only saw the first event. The object was also seen in Nevada, much of Northern AZ and all the way down the I-10 to Tuscon and further towards Mexico. I have no idea if it was military or ET, but sure hope to find out someday. My gut feeling was that it was ET - I felt I was in the presence of something non-human. But, my skeptical, scientific, common-sense side tells me that what I saw must have been a huge stealth-blimp that is some sort of confidential military craft. I haven't been able to find anyone with any solid evidence either way so I'm still very open minded to both options - or even other options. I have a hard time believing that the military could keep it confidential for so long though. If they could keep this thing under wraps, then I'd think the SR71, B2, etc. would still be under wraps too. Anyway, let me state it one more time - there may very well have been some military flares the night of 3/13/97, but what I, and many, many other Arizonans saw was NOT a bunch of flares. No way, no how.

LoL, Skinwalker, do you have any other words in your vocabulary, other than pseudoscience, cultist and spurious? That's all we hear

With the dribble you provide, I'm offered no alternatives.

Not only do you use the same words all the time, you say the same things all the time.

Pots, kettles, the color black.

You have no idea how boring that is to read!

Put me on your "ignore list."

Bubba, what you are facing here is mass ignorance and foolishness. You, see it's not just you who saw that, but even airforce pilots, and highly educated people, amongst the thousands others you mention. These foolish pseudoskeptics are not going to even glance at that, they'll just swallow and regurgutitate the official explanation, without questioning it. However, believe you me, the air they breathe is increasingly getting thinner, there is not just this Buba - There is Roswell, There is the Missouri Crash, there is the Brooklyn bridge UFO abduction; there is the Rendelsham incident, and tons of such other incidents, everything is mounting up, and it's crushing them, and what you see coming out of them, other than the shit, is just plain wind.
I've proven beyond a reason of doubt now, that they don't have a leg to stand on; they have gone from pretending to be sensible - to ignorance - to ridicule - to open-insults. It is clear to anyone how pathetic they have become.

Thanks for the support crazymikey :-). I won't pass judgement on skinwalker - I think he's just a little fast to jump to conclusions, but I don't blame him for thinking that what he saw were flares. It seems most of video caught that night, and shown in the media WAS of the something that looked a lot like flares - and very well could have been. But, that was not what I saw earlier that night. I do remember seeing a short clip of video of the v-shaped object, but it was very poor quality so I think that's why it didn't get much airtime. I'm not sure if it's out there on the Internet anywhere but I think it might have even been shown in that Discovery Channel (TLC?) special they did on the Phoenix lights. Anyway, no video can compare to what I saw with my own two eyes. I do wish I would have had one of those high-intensity spot lights they use at grand-openings and a video camera though. I'll have to buy a big pick-up and start halling one around with me just in case :-). Also, you mentioned that highly-educated people saw the object so I thought that I might add I could be counted as one of them. I am a Summa Cum Laude (4.0 GPA) ASU graduate with a B.S. degree in Computer Information Systems.

I won't pass judgement on skinwalker - I think he's just a little fast to jump to conclusions, but I don't blame him for thinking that what he saw were flares.

Oh no, certainly not Bubba. Skinwalker is an unequivocally an out and out anti-ufo fanatic. He calls all UFO proponents fanatics and cultists, and considers it a field that is bullshit and a waste of time. He calls all people who claim to have seen UFO's or have been abducted by the - delusional or mentally ill(hence why he dismissed your account) he outrightly denies any incident he cannot explain, and for cases he thinks he can explain, he gives the most awful explanations(e.g. Metallic flying saucer UFO's in ancient artwork, from as old as 40,000 years; explained as symbols for flesh and blood angels, or just decoration :D)

Honestly, do not hestitate to show these kind of people their true place. Skinwalker is to skepticism, what those UFO fallen angel and demon cults are to ufology.

You may be right, I haven't been here so long so haven't read much from him. If he just hangs around here trying to dismiss other people's experiences though maybe it's because he just doesn't have much of a life of his own and or he's just jealous of other people's "alien probing experiences" :-) Jokes aside though, he is entitled to his opinion just like everyone else. But, if he is ignorant, narrow-minded and judgemental of others then I guess it's just best to ignore him and not give him the attention he seems to crave.

Skinwalker is an unequivocally an out and out 1)anti-ufo fanatic. 2)He calls all UFO proponents fanatics and cultists, and 3)considers it a field that is bullshit and a waste of time. 4)He calls all people who claim to have seen UFO's or have been abducted by the - delusional or mentally ill 5)(hence why he dismissed your account) he 6)outrightly denies any incident he cannot explain, and 7)for cases he thinks he can explain, he gives the most awful explanations(e.g. Metallic flying saucer UFO's in ancient artwork, 8)from as old as 40,000 years; explained as symbols for flesh and blood angels, or just decoration :D)

As usual, your accuracy is faulty. Let me correct one or two points here (but it certainly demonstrates how you fail understand the skeptical refutations on this board - you only see what you want to in print!).

1) I'm an anti-pseudoscience fanatic. I admit, I fanatically oppose pseudoscience as I see it as one of the reasons why our nation is failing to produce the volume of scientists, engineers and critical thinkers it could be.

2) My position on the UFO/ETI movement is that it resembles a post-axial religion in many ways. If it is a religion, its an unconscious one, though many individual cults do exist within it in which it's members voluntarily subscribe to religious experience. But the UFO/ETI movement as a whole, has a heirarchy, sacred places, world rejection, belief in a form of salvation, unbounded explanations of the supernatural, and fanatical rejection of infidels and heretics (skeptics).

3) I consider the methodology that crazymikey has used to be bullshit and a waste of time since it presents untestable claims and has no potential for falsifiability. There are some very good researchers into ETI out there as well as UFOs. The Hessledeen project among them.

4) I've referred to only a couple people as dellusional or metally deficient, as this is the more probable answer. The rest are likely to be merely gullible or lack the appropriate critical thinking or want to believe. Belief systems exist in humanity and are rarely supported by rational thought.

5) I dismissed Bubba's account because better, more probable explanations are forthcoming.

6) No, for those "incidents" I can't explain, I do not deny them, I simply refuse to make them adhere to my belief system and leave them as unexplained but with several probable and possible causes, one of which is UFO/ETI. The latter simply doesn't happen to be as probable or possible as many of the others.

7) Your inability to describe me to Bubba would indicate that your reasoning ability is perhaps biased, damaged, or not fully developed. Therefore this remark explains itself. My explanations of your "UFO/ETI in ancient artwork" was reasonable and original in thought, while based on solid citation and context. None of which your "hypothesis" could claim.

8) For one to believe that one can interpret the artistic thought of a prehistoric human culture of 40 kya without the context of other artistic works is very ignorant indeed.

So, as you can see Bubba, crazymikey simply vehemently opposes those that disagree with his "hypotheses," regardless of their refutations. His only reponse is that if you disagree with him, you are obviously wrong. Never once did I see crazymikey revise a point in light of information received from someone else. Nor did he defend his points beyond simply stating that the refutation was from a pseudo-skeptic using pseudo-logic. Yet he claims to follow scientific methodology.

Bubba, you very well may have seen something. That's something that neither I nor crazymikey will ever prove or disprove. Before retiring from the military, I can tell you I saw a lot of strange stuff that the military was doing. Hell, I nearly pissed on myself once when I drove a Hummer around a hill and saw a remotely piloted drone hovering over the road in broad daylight! Damndest thing I ever saw. Had it been night time, there's no telling what I would have thought.

I'm just saying that crazymikey's evidence is severely lacking.

Skinwalker, shall I tell you, why you are so vehemently against ETI and UFO's? Why you lurk around in there threads and dismiss every pro-ETI evidence or anything that suggests ETI? I've already worked you out. Then again, don't be surprised, you repeat the same things every post, so it's quite easy to see through such transparency :D

The truth is so clear: You're a bigot. You have this(weak) theory, that you been working on and writing up that the ETI/UFO movement:

UFO/ETI movement is that it resembles a post-axial religion in many ways. If it is a religion, its an unconscious one, though many individual cults do exist within it in which it's members voluntarily subscribe to religious experience. But the UFO/ETI movement as a whole, has a heirarchy, sacred places, world rejection, belief in a form of salvation, unbounded explanations of the supernatural, and fanatical rejection of infidels and heretics (skeptics).

You're even writing a "paper" on it, as you proclaimed not too long ago. You have repeated this same "theory" over and over to the point of it becoming a chore to hear. It is so obviouis now. You feel undermined lol
Yes, that is it. You've been working on this theory of yours for so long, writing it up, possibly want publication. That all this evidence for ETI, that is piling up right before your eyes, makes you feel small and undermined :D It's damn funny actually, just so that you can enforce your opinion, you are flatly and outrightly denying every piece of evidence - so that you can have your say! Oh man, I feel I'm going to burst out laughing! That is soo pathetic lol

Dude, if it's broke --- fix it - or you'll fall face flat and break your nose.

Damn, I can't stop laughing now. I need to get it out of my system lol

Ha! I'm the bigot? :)

bigot - a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

I'm actually very tolerant of different opinions. In fact, I've even been known to revise my own opinions based on evidence provided by others. Show me where you've revised anything in your "550 +" pages of "evidence." You mean to tell me that you are completely right and that the skeptical audience had nothing to offer? Not one point that you could use to revise your "hypotheses?"

Science doesn't work that way mikey.

Pseudoscience does.

I'm actually very tolerant of different opinions. In fact, I've even been known to revise my own opinions based on evidence provided by others.

I wanted to stop laughing, but no, you wouldn't let me

Posts by Skinwalker:

"UFO/ETO movement is a cultist and fanatical movement"
"All you've actually done is provide a bunch of pseudoscience shit in the form of a bunch of "believers" re-affirming their faiths"
"Investigation into UFO/ETI is a waste of time since the supernatural and metaphysical cannot be falsified. "

This one is particularly funny: Skinwalker is shown up by a skeptical web site, showing him as a pseudoskeptic: To which he says -

"Like I said, the link you provided was broken, but the last time I looked at skepticalinvestigations.org (if it's the same site), it appeared to be a "pseudo-skeptic" site that had an agenda of passing itself off as a skeptic site, but one that justified pseudoscientific rationale. "

"Very tolerant of different opinions"

ROFL

"n fact, I've even been known to revise my own opinions based on evidence provided by others. "

LMAO

As I said above. Skinwalker is a bigot; an out and out anti-UFO fanatic, who is outrightly rejecting every evidence in favour of ETI - simply so that he can have his say.

"Oh, I'm well versed in this field. Anthropology. I'm making it a life's work to study why people believe and their archaeological records. You should see my field notes on this site "

Here is a real description of Skinwalker, FROM an actual PRO-skeptic web site:

by Marcello Truzzi
Founding co-chairman of CSICOP

I propose that true skepticism is called for today: neither the gullible acceptance of true belief nor the closed-minded rejection of the scoffer masquerading as the skeptic. One should be skeptical of both the believers and the scoffers. The negative claims of pseudo-skeptics who offer facile explanations must themselves be subject to criticism. If a competent witness reports having seen something tens of degrees of arc in size (as happens) and the scoffer -- who of course was not there -- offers Venus or a high altitude weather balloon as an explanation, the requirement of extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim falls on the proffered negative claim as well. That kind of approach is also pseudo-science. Moreover just being a scientist confers neither necessary expertise nor sufficient knowledge. (I wish it did, sigh.) Any scientist who has not read a few serious books and articles presenting actual UFO evidence should out of intellectual honesty refrain from making scientific pronouncements. To look at the evidence and go away unconvinced is one thing. To not look at the evidence and be convinced against it nonetheless is another. That is not science. Do your homework!

Critics who assert negative claims, but who mistakenly call themselves "skeptics," often act as though they have no burden of proof placed on them at all, though such a stance would be appropriate only for the agnostic or true skeptic. A result of this is that many critics seem to feel it is only necessary to present a case for their counter-claims based upon plausibility rather than empirical evidence. Thus, if a subject in a psi experiment can be shown to have had an opportunity to cheat, many critics seem to assume not merely that he probably did cheat, but that he must have, regardless of what may be the complete absence of evidence that he did so cheat and sometimes even ignoring evidence of the subject's past reputation for honesty."

Skinwalker is a pseudoskeptic, and he's is being a pseudoskeptic, because his entire life's work of proving UFO/ETI movements to be a "post-axial" cultist movement goes down the gutter. What we have here, is a very stubborn, bigoted, shameless and proud man, who thinks he's the shit, but he's actually just shit.

definetely something strange in phx
also, u may see the flares as an attempt to cover-up, but u see the flares event took place later in the night, way after many people around phoenix had seen the slowly creeping semi-transparant v-shaped craft over head.

ive read over peoples reports, and they all agree on a few points:
- huge craft, some claim a mile long others not so exageratted.
- low altitude, some say 1000 feet while others closer to ground,
- light fixtures on the bottom side of the craft, moving in unison
- slow speed, all the lights seemed to creep along between 10-50 mphs
- direction, all claims say North to South, or NE to SW, same basic direction

now, i can conclude a few things. given its slow speed, it shows that there was some intention on making sure people saw it.

given the description, it is one huge craft.
do you think that humans, in attempts to create antigravity crafts etc, would try by building a HUGE mile-wide mothership ? i dont think so.
we start small, of course. thats obvious common sense.
(now opposing this thought is the notion of human intelligence secretly working on antigrav for almost half a decade- now in that light it seems possible they may have created a huge ship ... but my insight tells me this is not the case)

i think it was ETI attempt to show themselves. they have began a campaign to try to bring awareness (supposedly). if we want them to show, they will. if we don't, they won't. they know, do you ? ask yourself.

mikey what makes you think it wasnt eti ?

and skinwalker u should make a thread called "i hate crazymikey"
and crazymikey should make a thread called "i hate skinwalker"

but for god's sake, and for aliens' sake, and for pete's sake- dont fight in the threads.

i know thats what walker wants, but mikey why cant you place him on ignore. i know no one likes to be insulted- but forget him, and remember what what youre here to do.
u say u realize why walker does this, yet you continue to argue him. forget him, please ! its the arguments that are lowering your credibility and etc... dont u see mikey? ignore ! poof ! gone !

mikey what makes you think it wasnt eti ?

I guess, you could call it insight too. I think what is most telling, is the triangular design, which seems like a terrestrial design choice, aerodynamically proficient, for gliding in the air. I guess it has two modes of propulsion. Although it is possible it was ETI. After all, it does not check out, that classified craft would be so openly demonstrated.

With regards to Skinwalker; I understand by arguing him, I am not making the best choice. However, I think it is imperative, that I show him, for he really is. Otherwise if I leave the nonsense he spouts, without showing it to be nonsense, it will muddle the matter for others. Although, now, it seems, we are all aware of his fanaticism and pseudoskepticism, so perhaps I shall ignore him.

Amen zonabi! The way they go back and forth, you'd think for sure they are husband and wife :-) I've only been on this forum for a few days and already can't take any more of it. Anyway, to get back to the main point of this thread.

Skinwalker, how can you "dismiss my account" when I didn't even make a claim as to the origin of what I saw? I clearly stated that I do not know whether it was ET, Military, or other and I remain open to all possibilities. I, like you claim to be, am a man of science and I do not take belief lightly. I only believe that which is backed by scientific, empirical evidence. Therefore, I don't believe in God, UFOs, the Boogeyman, Big Foot, Bermuda Triangle, Loch Ness Monster, etc.

What are the more probable explanations you refer to and by what formula do you calculate their probability? Remember that the past often has no bearing on the future when it comes to probability - i.e. if you flip heads 100 times in a row, it doesn't make it any more likely that the next flip will be heads - the probability is still 50/50.

Do you think I'm lying about what I saw or do you think that what I saw was just flares flying over me in a V formation? If the latter, please how flares could accomplish this? Also, I am pretty sure I saw an actual connecting the 5 lights, but I honestly can't say with 100% certainty. It's all fuzzy now after 7 years and reading numerous other accounts. Part of my mind says that I actually saw it and the other part says maybe my mind just connected the dots - like a typical optical illusion.

If you think I'm lying, all I can say is that I am a man of honesty and integrity and it is your choice to believe me or not. Obviously you don't know me and I could just be some slimy car salesman for all you know. But, I have better things to do with my time then try to convince people I saw a UFO. There is no doubt that it WAS a UFO (unidentified flying object) - the question is whether or not it was ET and what was its purpose. I only came to this forum because I'm trying to find more info on what I saw. I'm seeking the evidence to explain what it was that I saw. If you had seen it, you'd want an explanation too. Okay, done rambling for now.

Peace!

I live in Phoenix (By the way, Phoenix is part of a greater metropolitan area, so one event will be seen by Phoenix, Scottsdale, Tempe, and Mesa, they are all squished together. This is in response to some claims that five cities saw the "object" simultaneously) I didn't see the lights that night, but the next day and the following weeks there was a local news bonanza. Our local news is HIGHLY armature and I don't believe them capable of sticking to a cover up. After seeing the footage, and looking for comparisons, these looked exactly like flairs. I have heard some of you talking about strange behavior, but I have never seen any in the footage. Do you have any links?

And I think I saw a question earlier in the thread about if the people of Phoenix talk about this a lot and do we think it was a UFO. The answer is that we don't talk a lot about it and have been convinced by the GOVERNMENT™ that something in the sky that looks like flairs, and behaves like flairs were probably flairs. We are used to seeing military exercises over our sky, helicopters, and the occasional jet. It’s not at all uncommon around here.

I think you mean, "flares" Spymoose, and it is actually quite possible, flares were also released at the same time, in addition to these UFO's being sighted. After all, hundreds/thousands of witnesses who saw the objects Bubba saw. Can't all be delusionals or over-exaggerating.

I saw quite a compelling video of the event, I am trying to track it, for you to see. Bare with me.

One question for anybody that claims they were flares and also claims that flares are used regularly in the Phoenix area. If both of these statements are true, then how do you explain the massive amounts of people reporting the UFO on 3/13/97? If they were just flares, which are used regularly, then why wouldn't 1000's of people be reporting them all the time when the military is dropping flares. Obviously there was something different on 3/13/97 that prompted all of this. As I've said about 4 times now - I DO THINK that there were some flares that night, however there was a separate event earlier in the night that was NOT flares - it was an enormous V formation that flew right over my frickin head! Anyone that saw it knows it was not flares. Flares drop down and blow with the wind - they do not fly across the sky in formation. The flares (if they were flares) later that night may or may not have been part of a cover-up for the earlier event, I have no evidence to support either claim.

BTW, before someone else brings it up - I just want to correct an earlier statement I made. The object I saw flew from NW to SE - just like everyone else who saw it reported. Just a typo . . . (I originally wrote NE to SW).

SpyMoose, if you live in Phoenix, you REALLY missed out. It was the most incredible thing I've ever seen. I only happened to see it because my friend was out loading golf clubs into his trunk as we were all heading out to go to Cracker Jax to hit some golf balls, play games, etc. While he was out loading his clubs, he looked up and saw it approaching and yelled for us all to come out and look. My wife (girlfriend at the time) and I, and a few other friends all ran out and looked up to see the most amazing thing we've ever seen. This was in N. Phoenix (32nd St. and Cactus) around 8:45PM. The flares were way off in S. Phoenix a couple hours later.

It seems to me that there is no way there would be this much contoversy if the only thing seen was flares, I remember seeing the flares on the news and wondering what people thought they were seeing. So, the way I see it...the reason controversy exists to this day is because something controversial was seen...the controversial thing seen was most likely not a government plane because the government would not fly a secret plane over a city.

alright damnit lol,i did a google search and stumbled upon my old thread and read threw it,first of all,MOST of u have gotten off topic in a sense...i asked about the actual website www.lightsoverphoenix.com,which i believe no was a website to a dead indie film that was being developed by a daniel pace i have additional links if anyone wants them.and for the record based on testimonials and footage i would have to say that there was indeed two incidents one involving flares and one not involving these same flares,could they have been new types? maybe new technology?could be..was it traditional flares as we know them certainly not.but what i wanted was people insight to the actual website which by now has not been updated in about 2 years.

Any speculation as to what these lights could be besides flares? Speculation is allowed in pseudoscience, just ignore the mischeif makers....

Bubba...at the time, what feeling came over you and your friends?

A question I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned is why was a Flare used in the first place. Flares are used usually to see things in twilight and usually by the military or certain architypes of civillians.

Perhaps a hunter was using flares to find game, perhaps the flare was launched to help with "the retreival" of something, perhaps it was launched by either military or survival militants doing some form of training exercise.

However the question there would be why the flare? then you can question what the "other" lights were.

I have a few questions for Bubba:

Can you describe the lights as you remember them as if we are witnessing through your eyes. Such as

Were they spherical or elongated?
If elongated, were they vertical or horizontal?
Did the lights have depth that you can make out or looked flat if not spherical?
The color of the lights?
Why do you say the object was V-shaped, or was the light you saw was V-shape formation and you thought the object must be.
Was there any smell like ozone or any other change in atmosphere?

www.lightsoverphoenix.com ....thoughts?

Grover,

In my personal Opinion i would suggest that it was a Govt Craft or simply a Blimp.You can have a simple explaination of the Phoenix observations such as Choppers creating a formation etc.Testing doesnt necessarily restricts itself from covert regions...
Formation Pics can perhaps help you to make out that it was easily a Normal Craft.

Couple of Years back,while in Phoenix,I saw a tower while in Cab from Airport,which had lights blinking starting from top to botton,that would start from the top and go down as if a UFO was landing...For a first time Observer,it was real magic...But for Locals,it was simply legerdemain.
bye!

I only believe that which is backed by scientific, empirical evidence. Therefore, I don't believe in God, UFOs

There is a mountain of scientific, empirical evidence relating to UFOs. Way too much to even detail here. You might want to look around harder before proclaim what you do or do not "believe in." Whether you believe in them or not, UFOs exist. The question before us today is what they are and what they represent.

I only believe that which is backed by scientific, empirical evidence. Therefore, I don't believe in God, UFOs
Bubba,
Our Eyes,Observations are dependent on Logical Dogmas established by Science.What we see is real,so you might as well assume it as real.Therefore,hypothetically in a Perfect Virtual World,everything our eyes see and our senses make us feel would be real by Conventional Scientific Dogma,but essentially contradictory on the other side,as Scientific Reality today is too subjective.

Our Science today by convention offers Possible explainations for Strange phenomenons,but it(Explaination to ParaNormal) might be ephemeral.Since Science itself learns from its Experiences and essentially changes its strict Axiomatic Laws,Plus the fact that science sometimes relies too much on Observed behaviour and deductions are primarily based upon conformity with previous Laws.So,one can never say wether the Observation made by Science was Real to our understanding or not.
This is not to say that I am projecting that UFOs are Real or anything.This is just some food for thought.

bye!

This wouldn’t even come close to many of the great cover-ups done by the powers that be.
1 Deny it.
2 Disclaim it.
3 Lie about it.
4 Spread false rumors about it.
5 Confuse the facts.
6 Twist the information.
7 Discredit the witnesses.
8 Threaten all involved.
9 Slander the witnesses.
10 Slander and ridicule those that want to talk about these things.

Information Control Agents abound at sciFOOLEMS forums. :bugeye: :confused: