hi guys, just wondered how many people agree with this statement.

x nafe

Define spirit.

I agree. I do't believe in 'spirit' and think we are meat machines.

Spirit: The force that embodies all forms of life, the soul, the ghost, the energy that possesses the fundamental fibres of being, whether this be cells, genes, atoms, etc.

I agree. I do't believe in 'spirit' and think we are meat machines.

then you don't belive in free will? that all our actions are predifined and a direct result of the action that occured a micro-second ago?

Do you believe animals have spirits, do animals have free will?

yes, but what are you getting at?

i disagree, if anything tthe other way around in the fact that if there is a greater being he will have control over what you do

i disagree, if anything tthe other way around in the fact that if there is a greater being he will have control over what you do

why would a greater being have control over what we do or choose to do? is it not the metaphorical eating of the apple that liberates us from control, gives us free will?

We are able to think no metaphors about apples required. As to the spirit or soul I think it is the human tendency to want to be able to transcend the physical but wishes don't always jibe with reality.

We are able to think no metaphors about apples required. As to the spirit or soul I think it is the human tendency to want to be able to transcend the physical but wishes don't always jibe with reality.

are you agreeing with the statement or does the concept of free will hold no correlation with the concept of the soul whatsoever?

I’m just trying to find out whether the atheist who believes in free will but not the soul is contradicting him or herself.

Since I can't see any evidence for a soul I don't think there is any relevance.

yes, but what are you getting at?
Animals have both a soul and free will? Do they sin, are they judged by the same rules as people?

then you don't belive in free will? that all our actions are predifined and a direct result of the action that occured a micro-second ago?

Yep. Machines. Part program, part random, but machines. 'Free Will' does not exist. Some programs think they have it, when all they are doing, is running a program! ;-) Put it this way, Music is what comes out of a piano when it is being played, it is not what makes the strings move. Same goes for personality, it is the meat machine in action, not actioning the meat machine.

Since I can't see any evidence for a soul I don't think there is any relevance.

do you believe in free will? have you seen or know of evidence to support the concept?
if yes, then does it not consequent the pondering of the existence of the soul?

then does it not consequent the pondering of the existence of the soul?

Why? We are living, conscious organisms we make decisions.

Yep. Machines. Part program, part random, but machines. 'Free Will' does not exist. Some programs think they have it, when all they are doing, is running a program! ;-) Put it this way, Music is what comes out of a piano when it is being played, it is not what makes the strings move. Same goes for personality, it is the meat machine in action, not actioning the meat machine.


I believe that machines can have soul (soul being a certain concept of self awareness, the idea that I am me and you are you), as does an ant which has some basic function and a sense of survival.

Yes we are machines but we evolved did we not? We built the machines but who has built us? When we give machines the ability to build themselves and evolve themselves then will we see a sense of survival start to appear in machines? And with this sense of survival, a sense of self awareness, a soul, a reason for existence other than what it was built for, to simply procreate and survive. Like us.

If you don’t believe in free will then you believe that you have no choice and no control over where you go and what you do. Every action is predefined and already decided for you, you’re just following instructions. You’re not going to make a decision to reply or not, that was already decided at the beginning of time and the birth of matter. (???)

Why? We are living, conscious organisms we make decisions.

why? because the concept of free will goes against the big bang theory, of course.
the big bang being the macrocosmic version of a break in a pool game. each ball is a particle bashing and breaking into others, making atoms, forming structures, planets, ergo life as we know it. if the big bang happened then it must still be happening, right? all cause and effect (do you agree with this or not? because i think your answer relates directly to free will).

i dont believe in spirit or free will so......

But I guess I can see your point... if there is nothing more than the physical brain realizing your consiousness, then your consiousness must be deterministic if the physics behind the brain are deterministic.

If you don’t believe in free will then you believe that you have no choice and no control over where you go and what you do. Every action is predefined and already decided for you, you’re just following instructions. You’re not going to make a decision to reply or not, that was already decided at the beginning of time and the birth of matter. (???)

Go run down the street completely naked. No? Why not? Is it because it would be embarrasing? Did you decide for it to be embarrasing? Or do you not have much control over that? What about fear of being arrested? Do you have direct control over whether or not you feal fear? Not whether you can suppress it, but whether or not you feel it to begin with? Or perhaps you will do it despite all these emotions, because a sense of wonder drives you to in order to prove you can. Or maybe you derive joy from exhibitionism and this is the stronger impulse. But do you control these feelings either?

Perhaps you will stab yourself in the throat, or donate all your money to the nearest alcoholic. Or how about just pick up all your stuff (or leave it either one) and move to a country across the globe. How often do people do these types of things? Not often because it simply does not benefit them, or they do not know whether or not it would benefit them. And what benefits them is deterministic is it not? So if you want things that benefit you somehow, and you only choose things that you want, but whether or not something is beneficial to you is deterministic, then choosing what you want is somewhat deterministic is it not?

Your on a train track, you just can't see it. My saying so might alter your train track, but such is just the determnistic response to my saying your on a train track.

i dont believe in spirit or free will so......

But I guess I can see your point... if there is nothing more than the physical brain realizing your consiousness, then your consiousness must be deterministic if the physics behind the brain are deterministic.

if you don't believe in free will then are you not denying you own existence? denying simple things like blame for ones actions. I doubt a judge will accept the murderer who turns around and says: “wasn’t my fault! We live in a world of determinism!”

I'd like to fashion a lengthy, in depth statement of my position on the matter of free will. However, the conditions of my brain are such that I lack the attention span and conviction this hour in the morning to properly articulate my point of view. If only I possesed the brilliance of an Albert Einstein or one of the great philosophers, than I'd have the means to think, analyze and articulate myself on a deeper level right now... But instead, I have to go eat, because I'm hungry. Ah, the human predicament.

I agree. I do't believe in 'spirit' and think we are meat machines.
Biochemical and electrical machines.

why? because the concept of free will goes against the big bang theory, of course.
the big bang being the macrocosmic version of a break in a pool game. each ball is a particle bashing and breaking into others, making atoms, forming structures, planets, ergo life as we know it. if the big bang happened then it must still be happening, right? all cause and effect (do you agree with this or not? because i think your answer relates directly to free will).
Big bang is a theory an imperfect one at that. Are you assuming that all atheists believe in big bang like christians believe in the bible?

if you don't believe in free will then are you not denying you own existence? denying simple things like blame for ones actions. I doubt a judge will accept the murderer who turns around and says: “wasn’t my fault! We live in a world of determinism!”

How are will and existence related? Do rocks exist? They do exist, so they must have free will.

Dualism's for pussies.

I've never understood the reasons what makes people believe in the dualism assumption.

hi guys, just wondered how many people agree with this statement.

x nafe
No. Spirits don't exist. They are childish explanations for perfectly rational, scientific phenomena. In this case, neural impulses.

And of course we have free will. You'd have to be retarded to think we don't.

Without spirit and free will properly defined, this thread is worthless. It's all semantics.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2003/lecture5.shtml

No. Spirits don't exist. They are childish explanations for perfectly rational, scientific phenomena. In this case, neural impulses.

And of course we have free will. You'd have to be retarded to think we don't.

That's a pretty persuasive argument you've got there Hapsburg. But would you care to elaborate?

I doubt a judge will accept the murderer who turns around and says: “wasn’t my fault! We live in a world of determinism!”

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that the moral consequences of an idea relate in anyway to its truth. If we genuinely have free will, then we can continue as normal. If free will is an illusion (my belief), then we have no choice and it doesn't matter anyway.

we all feel like we have free will whether you believe it's a reality or not is another matter, free will doesn't need definition.
personally speaking, the feeling of free will comes hand in hand with a feeling of the presence of the soul or spirit, a sense of energy and activity. An undercurrent that runs through all matter indifferent of time and space, possibly the likes of string theory and quantum physics are the closest we’re getting but mabe its something that can only be explained with a new kind of science, neurology, psychology, molecular biology and the scientific appreciation and study of the unknown which of course requires a certain amount of faith which I think is the best drive for any good researcher or analyst.
What is required is a free-thinking, drastic, permutation in the way we look at all of these sciences, the way we perceive the problem of free will, identity and the human condition.

I don’t think you should ever wave off the existence of anything. True intellect is an open mind. Do you agree?

If you don’t believe you have free will then you must believe in determinism, fate (how can we really live like that? knowing that we're not in control of ourselves), which I strongly believe is a fault in the human condition and something that we need to essentially evolve out of, in order for the next evolutionary step to take place. Determinism comes from our logical perspective, which is ape like, our sense of the passing of time, but what really is time anyway? another thread perhaps. Its JUST so we can survive and prevent ourselves from loosing our minds, that’s all, nothing else. seems like such an easy way out of these philosophical problems.

If you don’t believe you have free will then you must believe in determinism


I don't believe in free will and I do believe in determinism. Unfortuantely, you don't know exactly what determinism is. The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs

Basically determinism is the idea that everything is based upon cause and effect (which I believe) --and it is this which eventually leads us to our decisions. I , however, do not believe in fate. Fate implies that there is some (God-like) being that already knows what we are going to do and, to me, this is not the case.

erm, i'm sorry Possumking, but i do know what determinism is, thankyou for your explanation though.
your belief implies that everything is inevitable, of course, if events only occur because of a previous state of affairs then everything is predestined and can be predicted by an algorithm that is floating out there somwhere in space waiting for us to find it. fate does not require god or some "god-like" being, it has nothing to do with god. fate is simply the idea that everything that is about to happen is out of our control, the future is pre-determined.
disregarding free will is so primitive and a such a simple way to overcome ALL the ethical problems in the universe. it seems crazy to me. how can you be so mechanistic? we're not really like that, we don't really think we're not in control, you don't honestly look into the mirror and think "there i am, an indifferent automaton...zombie" we all have a feeling of the little guy inside our heads, making decisions, homunculus puzzle, i think this is called. intuitively we deny that we are nothing but a digital computer. its a requisite for survival, if you truly believed that you had no free will, no control whatsoever, then you would instantly experience depersonalization, a dissociative disorder experienced by schizophrenics. neurologists know this, and deep down every sane person on the planet knows that they have free will.

Wouldn't the existence of an etherial spirit simply lead to a different brand of determinism. After all, while a soul may function according to its own rules, it obeys rules nonetheless.

If you don’t believe you have free will then you must believe in determinism, fate
Not necessarily. I certainly do not believe in free will, but that's not to say I automatically believe in determinism. Quantum physics has shown that at the most fundamental level we have yet perveived, reality exhibits an indeterminacy and randomness that precludes concrete predictions. Although physics on a biological scale seems to be a little more classical, I'm not sure how much influence these quantum uncertainties have. Even so, after all that, I suppose it would be fair to say I'm a determinist. :)

(how can we really live like that? knowing that we're not in control of ourselves), which I strongly believe is a fault in the human condition and something that we need to essentially evolve out of, in order for the next evolutionary step to take place.
I can live like that just fine, thanks. It's not like it occupies my mind every waking moment, and it's not like I go around looting and murdering just because I'm a biological automaton. At the end of the day, I'm a product of the same evolutionary path as you are, and we're both equally enslaved by our genes. Also, there is no grand designer out there waiting for the general majority to gain a moral conscience "in order for the next evolutionary step to take place". Evolution will continue whatever our philosophical outlook.

disregarding free will is so primitive and a such a simple way to overcome ALL the ethical problems in the universe. it seems crazy to me. how can you be so mechanistic?
In my view, ethical problems are only problems for ethicists. I believe that our moral framework is just another tool for which we have evolution to thank. Cooperation within a society seems to be a vital skill for the continuation of our species, so it is no wonder that it has been selected for. There are no universal laws of good and bad, there are just acts which our society perceives as detrimental or beneficial to the whole. it seems to me that the idea that we have genuine free will is the irrational one. It is clear that the universe operates according to laws and principles, some of which have been identified by scientists. In order for free will to be a genuine characteristic of humans, those laws have to be set aside for that small volume of the universe that we carry between our ears. Within this space, the laws of physics are sufficiently plastic that the nature of molecular interactions can be changed according to whim. That is, of course, if you believe consciousness to be a product of brain chemistry (which I do). If you do not, then I guess free will is easier to justify.

if you truly believed that you had no free will, no control whatsoever, then you would instantly experience depersonalization, a dissociative disorder experienced by schizophrenics. neurologists know this, and deep down every sane person on the planet knows that they have free will.
This is a completely baseless assertion. I truly believe that universal physical law extends to my brain, and I am yet to undergo instant depersonalisation.

Not necessarily. I certainly do not believe in free will, but that's not to say I automatically believe in determinism. Quantum physics has shown that at the most fundamental level we have yet perveived, reality exhibits an indeterminacy and randomness that precludes concrete predictions. Although physics on a biological scale seems to be a little more classical, I'm not sure how much influence these quantum uncertainties have. Even so, after all that, I suppose it would be fair to say I'm a determinist. :)


Hi Laika,
Just found the forum today and this is my first post. I've been very interested in the "free will" concept for a long time, although not by that label. Not by any label since I haven't discussed it with anyone until the last few weeks.

Anyway, I agree with just about everything you're saying here. I don't believe in the existence of free will. I also don't believe in Determinism. But let me define both terms as I use them:

Free will: the ability to make a choice that is not controlled/influenced by (i.e. is "free" from) genetics, environment, previous experience. The concept is not limited to humans.

Determinism: the future of the universe is fixed.

You said you believe in determinism ("...I'm a determinist"), but you may have a slighty different definition. My view is that "chance" plays a role. I think you basically said that, too. That's why I suspect we believe the same thing but are using different definitions. If chance is a factor then the future is not fixed.
:)

Hi Bruce, and welcome to the forum.
To be honest, I'm not sure at all how much of a role chance plays on the relatively macroscopic level of our brains. While you can't say anything with certainty when you're talking about quantum-scale processes, I suspect that all (or maybe just most) of the randomness smears out on the level of brain chemistry. So I think I probably am a fairly conventional determinist after all, but I'm prepared to make concessions to quantum uncertainty. There are people on this board who are far more qualified to discuss quantum physics than I am, so I imagine they could say for sure just how much randomness affects macro-scale objects like neurons.

"if you don't believe in spirit then you dont believe in free will."

hi guys, just wondered how many people agree with this statement.


I disagree. The statement's meaning boils down to:

"If you don't accept the concept of a spirit as truth without considering supportive / contradictive evidence then you don't accept the concept of free will as truth without supportive or contradictive evidence"

It's a flawed assertion to think that absence of belief in one category automatically makes belief absent in another.

Big bang is a theory an imperfect one at that.
Sure, it doesn't explain what happened before the big bang, but at least the theory makes sense and there is quite a bit of evidence of it.

if events only occur because of a previous state of affairs then everything is predestined and can be predicted by an algorithm that is floating out there somwhere in space waiting for us to find it. fate does not require god or some "god-like" being, it has nothing to do with god. fate is simply the idea that everything that is about to happen is out of our control, the future is pre-determined.


I disagree. Something can only be "pre-determined" if there is a some sort of being that is the 'pre-determiner.' I believe that everything is inevitable, but I do not use it as some sort of opiate/comfort that is synonymous with the mass belief that 'everything is of god's will'. Do you disagree that we are, when you get down to the basics, just chemicals? Chemicals that have developed into evolving organisms? Where is the magic? Where is this mystical power of 'soul' that allows us to break the belief of 'just chemicals reacting?


disregarding free will is so primitive and a such a simple way to overcome ALL the ethical problems in the universe. it seems crazy to me. how can you be so mechanistic? we're not really like that, we don't really think we're not in control, you don't honestly look into the mirror and think "there i am, an indifferent automaton...zombie" we all have a feeling of the little guy inside our heads, making decisions, homunculus puzzle, i think this is called. intuitively we deny that we are nothing but a digital computer. its a requisite for survival, if you truly believed that you had no free will, no control whatsoever, then you would instantly experience depersonalization, a dissociative disorder experienced by schizophrenics. neurologists know this, and deep down every sane person on the planet knows that they have free will.

Tell me how it is primitive? -->Read on. Why sure you can argue that it is a way to disregard problems, you must understand that everyone in the world has the curtains of free will pulled over their eyes --including me. To me it is absolutely logical to believe that I have free will. I can choose to type 'S' or 'D.' However, I also use my logic to understand that whether or not I pushed either key, some reaction in my brain took place. Then that specific reaction took place because of another one. In this way, I believe that free will doesn't exists while at the same time experienceing what I my body tells me is free will. A similar example is that to me the world seems flat. In every way my body tells me that the world is flat, but using logic I understand that it is not.



--->Then again....human logic isn't always correct. It seems incredulous that time can be slowed down or sped up. But it is has been proven true.

Hi Bruce, and welcome to the forum.
To be honest, I'm not sure at all how much of a role chance plays on the relatively macroscopic level of our brains. While you can't say anything with certainty when you're talking about quantum-scale processes, I suspect that all (or maybe just most) of the randomness smears out on the level of brain chemistry. So I think I probably am a fairly conventional determinist after all, but I'm prepared to make concessions to quantum uncertainty. There are people on this board who are far more qualified to discuss quantum physics than I am, so I imagine they could say for sure just how much randomness affects macro-scale objects like neurons.

Thanks for your friendly welcome, Laika. :)

I think I see what you mean with respect to our brains. Maybe it's true that the brain functions without respect to randomness on a macroscopic level.

Until I read your thoughts about the brain, it was my belief that chance played a role in our choices. For example, when choosing which cards to throw away in a poker game, I sometimes feel like I'm as likely to go one way as another. if I understand your position correctly, though, even that choice is simply the result of chemical/electrical activity in my brain (and perhaps elsewhere in the body). Is that right?

Whichever way the brain works, though, I think having a "fixed" future would depend on every action in the universe, not just our choices. Every time there is a landslide, or rain drops fall, or a weed spore drifts in the wind, I think there is randomness in the result: where the rocks end up, where the rain falls, where the weed eventually grows or dies. And at least some of those times, the difference really does affect the future, and man, in a noticeable way.

Then again, maybe not. What do you think? ;)

-B

Our spirit is the ultra-human force that goes beyond our physical existence and gives us a religious experience and a motivational force and impulse to strive toward goals. The soul is supposedly a part of us that transverses death and lives on to eternity: it is a paranormal concept. What do any of these have to do with free will? The concept of free will is an existentialist question. Are we ever able to have free will independent of our historical culturally-conditioned background that we grew up in? We make conscious choices depending on our pre-conditioned learned knowledge-base.

Wouldn't the existence of an etherial spirit simply lead to a different brand of determinism. After all, while a soul may function according to its own rules, it obeys rules nonetheless.

BADA BING! Well, rational people would see it this way, yes! But believers somehow think that these things are 'other worldly' and they aren't prone to such restrictions as logic or reason. That would make sense of the personalities of believers, of course, but not for the rest of us!

under the influence of spirit there is no free will. hic!

Thanks for your friendly welcome, Laika. :)

I think I see what you mean with respect to our brains. Maybe it's true that the brain functions without respect to randomness on a macroscopic level.

Until I read your thoughts about the brain, it was my belief that chance played a role in our choices. For example, when choosing which cards to throw away in a poker game, I sometimes feel like I'm as likely to go one way as another. if I understand your position correctly, though, even that choice is simply the result of chemical/electrical activity in my brain (and perhaps elsewhere in the body). Is that right?

Whichever way the brain works, though, I think having a "fixed" future would depend on every action in the universe, not just our choices. Every time there is a landslide, or rain drops fall, or a weed spore drifts in the wind, I think there is randomness in the result: where the rocks end up, where the rain falls, where the weed eventually grows or dies. And at least some of those times, the difference really does affect the future, and man, in a noticeable way.

Then again, maybe not. What do you think? ;)

-B

Yes Bruce, I think that even decisions that seem whimsical at the time are actually grounded in neurochemistry, with the degree of chaos defined by how significant quantum uncertainty is on this scale. As I say, I'm not sure how deterministic the microscopic details of these decision-making processes are. Maybe I'll start a thread in the physics forum to find out the scale at which quantum physicists believe uncertainty becomes unimportant.

I totally agree that the brain has to be taken in the wider context of the external environment. I can well believe that the outcome of a chemical process, which might otherwise be fundamentally predictable, could be perturbed by practically unpredictable external influences - even the impact of the odd cosmic ray, for example. So our behavior could be essentially random even if the underlying biochemical mechanisms were not.

All of this is speculation, however, as I have absolutely no expertise in these fields.

why? because the concept of free will goes against the big bang theory, of course.
the big bang being the macrocosmic version of a break in a pool game. each ball is a particle bashing and breaking into others, making atoms, forming structures, planets, ergo life as we know it. if the big bang happened then it must still be happening, right? all cause and effect (do you agree with this or not? because i think your answer relates directly to free will).

This issue has been discussed here before. Look up some older threads. You'll find two threads about Free Will and Determinism. Read them. If you still think otherwise, reply in those threads.

Why not have free will if you do not believe in the spirit you may or may not but at the end of the day you make up your mind about what to do not matter what your believes are

but at the end of the day you make up your mind about what to do not matter what your believes are


So you think. Unfortunately, what may seem to be free will may not actually be free will. Do you agree that decisions and consciousness are processed by your brain. Do you agree that your brain is organic? Do you agree that your brain is made up of nonliving elements? Where is the magic of free will? Please tell me.

This issue has been discussed here before. Look up some older threads. You'll find two threads about Free Will and Determinism. Read them. If you still think otherwise, reply in those threads.

It is the nature of Sciforums that the most thought-provoking topics will be discussed repeatedly. I am not inclined to search through dead threads, so would rather post in the threads that are active and of interest to me.

I imagine that if the moderators thought it necessary to control such duplication, threads could be merged and maybe made sticky.

So you think. Unfortunately, what may seem to be free will may not actually be free will. Do you agree that decisions and consciousness are processed by your brain. Do you agree that your brain is organic? Do you agree that your brain is made up of nonliving elements? Where is the magic of free will? Please tell me.

Well the biggest question would then be if we control our brains or they control us baslicly we are controlled though everything we can'yt fly eat certain foods live forever we a bond to a restriction of our bodys not our minds

You are your body and brain. Actually that's all that you objectively are.
Psyche is a biochemical and electrical process that has no single physical manifestation, it's a concept and the existance of personality is an illusion.

Yes Bruce, I think that even decisions that seem whimsical at the time are actually grounded in neurochemistry, with the degree of chaos defined by how significant quantum uncertainty is on this scale. As I say, I'm not sure how deterministic the microscopic details of these decision-making processes are. Maybe I'll start a thread in the physics forum to find out the scale at which quantum physicists believe uncertainty becomes unimportant.

I totally agree that the brain has to be taken in the wider context of the external environment. I can well believe that the outcome of a chemical process, which might otherwise be fundamentally predictable, could be perturbed by practically unpredictable external influences - even the impact of the odd cosmic ray, for example. So our behavior could be essentially random even if the underlying biochemical mechanisms were not.

All of this is speculation, however, as I have absolutely no expertise in these fields.

Laika, I really like your very well thought-out posts. Regarding the role of chance in the universe, I would never have guessed that it might be so small as to be unnoticed. But then I, too, am no expert in the field. I'll look for your question in the physics forum.

It does seem to me, though, that whatever combination of chance and cause & effect is taking place, our thought processes are not under our control. Or, if you prefer, they ARE under "our" control, but "we" are completely a product of our universe. That is, everyone's entire consciousness is simply a part of the cause/effect space-time continuum of our universe.

And this leads to the (to me) most interesting aspect of the whole discussion -- the ramifications in our daily lives of our belief that "there is no free will." Notice, I don't say "ramifications of non-free will." It's not whether we have free will or not that has an affect on us, it's whether we believe we have it or not. Anyway, I think I'll start a thread on that. Just a teaser: a result of this belief for me is that I no longer blame anyone for anything ever, including myself of course.

Thanks again for your clear thinking and writing! :)

Nothing in this world makes any sense because we made it nothing is true or false because we decided it we decided boys wear blue and greeny colors and girls wear pink and yellow colors we decided 1+1 makes 2 we have put meaning into meaningless things that make no sense

i beleive in a form of spirit. Somthing seperates us from animals. Animals are ran by instinct they have no visible free will. If evolution is true we should be no diffrent but obviously we are. so that means we have somthing extra. im not sure what that extra is but it could be a soul, spirit or somthing.

free will does not require spirit - it is simply the absence of a controlling power

Nothing in this world makes any sense because we made it nothing is true or false because we decided it we decided boys wear blue and greeny colors and girls wear pink and yellow colors we decided 1+1 makes 2 we have put meaning into meaningless things that make no sense

I couldn't resist responding to this: the fact that 1 + 1 = 2 was not a human decision. If there's one elephant in a yard, and another elephant walks into the yard, then there are two elephants in the yard. No humans required. :)

i beleive in a form of spirit. Somthing seperates us from animals. Animals are ran by instinct they have no visible free will. If evolution is true we should be no diffrent but obviously we are. so that means we have somthing extra. im not sure what that extra is but it could be a soul, spirit or somthing.
We're not all that different. In many cases, we're even more animalistic than the animals are. Humans can be many times more cold and unfeeling and brutal and barbaric than other animals. The only thing that really seperates us from them is our better brain, and our capability to communicate better, and our better usage of materials around us to make tools.
And to think that other animals don't have visible free will and conscious thought is ludicrious.