I go to a Catholic school (and no, I've never been molested). Recently one of my teachers read a prayer with this line in it:

"We pray for the end of all things that kill life: Hunger, poverty, oppression, individualism , et cetera..."

Now why on Earth (MY god) would we pray for the death of individuality? I think this is going a bit far huh? The thing I love about Christians is that they usually make the atheists job easier by constantly making themselves look like fools. Further example. Our teacher got philosophical one class and tried to tell us how the Holy Spirit (HS) is in everything. She said:

"Everywhere, everything is alive with the spirit, even in things like rocks. Scientists are now breaking them up and noticing that at a very, very tiny level, they seem to quiver back and forth. The only thing that can explain this is the Holy Spirit. The spirit is in the rocks and its causing them to shake with God."

Well she's convinced me that the atomic theory is incorrect.

Today was even funnier. We talked about Oscar Romero (an El Salvadoran bishop) and the Commies. She said that communism was bad because it revolved around the principal of killing civilians. She said it was communism doctrine to take away people's Right to Religion and Freedom of Speech. She said communism was evil and we had to thank the HS for giving Oscar Romero the courage to fight back. Now, i'm thinking the Holy Spirit didn't do it alone. From what I know, Romero was pretty heavily influenced by the US, who apparently hates communism. Then the teacher pointed at a class mate of mine and in a shaky voice, while shakily waving her finger, said:

"If the Communists hear you speaking out against them, they will take you to the garbage dump and shoot you."

Now that just made my day. The look on her face was pure terror, as if she was condemned to hell. Priceless.

What I'm getting at here is that IGNORANCE seems to be a personal trait of most X-tians, at least ones I've met. Could it be that the very basis of their faith is founded on this quality?

And I realize my teacher is a fanatic. I can just picture Osama saying "I think you need to tone it down just a little, you're getting carried away."

Sounds like morning prayers & petitions to me, Supernova. Wow, that one brings back a few memories. I always liked the idea that some student was supposed to read the prayers each morning; maybe it's not like that at your school, but we even had a "petitions box", I think, where students wrote down who or what they would like prayed for, and somebody had to read those over the PA. Maybe the priests actually read the prayers; I don't remember. It could be that the student president had to read the sports scores. But I always wondered about that morning petition; it was often filled with a fair number of abstract good wishes for the starving children here and there, and we did have one student who was known for poring through newspapers and scribbling notes from the evening news and so forth to drop in the box the next day. Who needs CNN? If there was a disaster, K would have let you all know in morning prayers.

I can't say that they ever went after individualism so directly, but one thing to propose: I never found my instructors particularly intelligent, even about the things they were supposed to teach. It could have been much worse, and I have to admit that at a Jesuit school filled with lay spiritualists, the sharpest tacks included the nutty psych/history teacher and the Franciscan nun who taught theology. In that sense, one of the shortcomings of the Jesuit experience was that the more religious you were, the more demanding you were in your use of words. Thus, if, say, Father Fred dared use the word "individualism", he would not be describing the state that you or I recognize, but a doctrinal, catechismal idea such as you might find in the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07761a.htm) and applying the word as if it described as centralized, defined, codified, and consciously-identified body as Catholicism. Thus, we might find the drunken fool (and he was constantly intoxicated) rambling on about individualism and never know that what he was talking about was an imagined legion of lock-stepping, dogmatic individualists. (Yes, you can chuckle at that ....)

Really, that's how silly it got. I didn't pay attention to the Central American situation when I was in Catholic school because of the people teaching it to me. My history teacher was, I believe, forbidden from broaching the subject since he was as avant garde as you could get and not be fired. But my theology teacher for a year was always big on things like that. But he liked to do it with movies, which seems fun enough. But it was amazing; it turned out that I, the complete infidel, was the only person of the thirty of us in the room who had seen the film The Mission. I liked the idea of showing the film and I was, momentarily at least, intrigued at how my faithful classmates would react to the film. Of course, we started the class period with him spoiling the end, and spent the rest of Day One listening to him go point-by-point through the story and telling us how to feel and react and what to think.

No, I don't recall that they ever dug in against individualism specifically, but they were definitely anti-individual.

The rest of it ... I've thought about writing the movie, but being that truth is stranger than fiction, I doubt the audience would buy it. It's far too strange.

Have some fun, though. Look in the school library. Do they have Malleus Maleficarum? Great book. Nothing to do with individualism, but you'll scare the hell out of 'em until they realize that you're talking about a Catholic book.

And, well, I'm always a fan of screwing with them like that:

"Where did you hear that?"
Library
"What library?"
Um ... the one right over there? Our library ...

thanx for the memories,
Tiassa :cool:

Um ... the one right over there? Our library ...

That's pretty funny.

I can't imagine going to a Catholic school. In one sense it was probably torture, but in another sense it probably taught you alot about the Catholic environment and you also probably learned alot about yourself.....as an Individual.

I agree with you two. Ignorance almost seems like a Christian practice. To accept something just becuase it is written is pretty damn ignorant to me. To not question the Bible and your elders, well that is just $%!$%% stupid!!!!!!

I don't really know how it is in a Catholic school. I went to a public school(horray for me). But from what you and others have told me, the professors seem to be lacking some basic teaching skills.

I mean, do they relate or try to relate everything to Jesus and Christianity. Like when they teach you how to write out a check do they remind you to tithe. Or when they teach you how to solve a Math problem do they thank Jesus for giving them the ability to do so. Maybe these teachers aren't so smart because they try their hardest to incorporate Jesus in Math 101????

Maybe it has something to do with their Starting Salary. I live in NJ and around here teachers in Public Schools start somewhere around $35,000 to $40,000 a year(correct me if I'm wrong) and a good friend of my wife just started at a Christian School and she is making around $20,000. Could it be that these people really aren't qualified?????

tiassa- i'll look for that book, yet with dull hope, as much of our library has a very selective way of choosing books to make available to us ;).

Actually I am glad I had the opportunity to go to a Catholic school and be raised in a Catholic home. I now have a valid argument against them. First order of business however, is to point out an error in my original post. I did some research on Oscar Romero and it turns out that this is the [simplified] story:

- Extreme right-wing political group [almost Fascim] hold power in El Salvador during the late '70s. Their regime is characterized by massacre, torture etc.

- Communists are a minority. Since this is in the time of the Cold War, Cuba decides to support the communist movement. This angers the US who by God can't allow communism any stronger of a foothold, so THE US FULLY BACKS THE MILITARY DICTATORSHIP IN EL SALVADOR TO KEEP THE COMMIES OUT. They keep on with the child slayings, etc.

- Bishop Romero, who was in favor of neither government as far as we can tell [he was probably socialist, yes, there is such thing as a catholic socialist]. He begins to speak out against the atrocity that the El Salvadoran/US government are responsible for.

- The current pope [names fail me] decides that "Hey, we can't have a bishop doing this, religious persons do not engage in political activism." So the Catholic Church boots him out.

- Well, now that Romero is [technically] not a preist, the US/El Salvadoran gov. has no problem with killing him to shut him up. He is assasinated while conducting a Catholic Mass.

That's the skinny of it. I suppose I'm no better than my Religion teacher, seeing as I was wrong also originally.

Lightbeing;

It's weird to see how the Catholic faith is being integrated into the school curriculum without hardly being detected. For example, the other day in biology we were discussing embryonic development. The teacher said "After 9 weeks, the embryo is considered a fetus, and an abortion after this point in time would be murder..." and continues as if what she had just said was undisputed fact. A few of us raised eyebrows on that [no one challenged it however], but most scribbled it into their little notebooks word for word and undoubtedly studied that "fact" for the exam. I should point out that not all classes are like that. Thankfully, my Social and English teacher choose to remain quite objective. It really is a matter of personality/gullibility. Being in a Catholic school doesn't mean every teacher babbles about Catholosism, it just means that if they do, they won't go to jail because of it.

Sometimes I have no problem dropping names, especially when it's such a story. Supernova, your response to Lightbeing, and LB's mention about Jesus and Math 101 popped one into my head.

The following story was related to me by Marlys Johnson, my geometry/logic teacher in high school:

• Apparently Marlys' child was born with a cleft palate. For any who are unfamiliar, this is a structural birth defect in which the roof of the mouth is not closed properly. As a result, young children have a habit of getting some interesting things stuck in their sinus passages. Well, more interesting than usual when a cleft palate is involved. As it was explained to us, in this testimonial of God's grace (as part of our geometry lesson?) the doctors were unwilling to perform corrective surgery until the child was at least a term of months older.

Another problem cleft palate apparently causes is respiratory difficulty. The child, apparently, had to be bedded in a specific way; too upright would keep the child awake, and too flat would cause the child to stop breathing.

And Marlys, being a loving parent with the usual maternal instincts, awoke at any irregularity in the sound of the child's breathing (apparently a snoring sound as result of the cleft palate). After many nights, of course, the task of getting up frightened, checking on the baby, waking the baby, and then calming the baby back to sleep, began to wear on her. It became harder and harder for Marlys to function through each day.

So one night, exhausted and in need of sleep, Marlys says she threw her hands up, told God it was his choice, put the baby to sleep on its back and shut the baby's bedroom door so as to drown out the sound of the baby's breathing so that she could sleep well and rested. If the baby died, it would be God's will. Of course, the baby didn't die, thus reinforcing her faith.

This, of course, was Geometry/Logic class.

Jesus 101 in math class. :D

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

(PS--Malleus Maleficarum is written by Kramer and Sprenger, I believe they were Dominicans, and I believe it was circa 14th century. I'll look it up. "The Hammer", as it's known, is a thoroughly Catholic document in all its gory glory.)

The Malleus Maleficarum, often called The Hammer of Witches. (http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/)

Thank y'm'dear. :D

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

You know, once, back when my family went to church, my Sunday school teacher, a young female idealist just out of college, was telling us how great heaven is. I asked her, "If heaven is so great, why don't we just stop using medicine to prolong life? After all, isn't it a good place to be?" The Sunday school teacher never listened to me again.

supernova_smash,

What I'm getting at here is that IGNORANCE seems to be a personal trait of most X-tians, at least ones I've met. Could it be that the very basis of their faith is founded on this quality?

Love your enemies.

How is that ignorant?

Love,
Nelson

Love your enemies.

How is that ignorant?

Well, if followed, it would get you killed....

But in any case, that is hardly a central tenent of Christianity.

Well, if followed, it would get you killed....

I see that...

You never followed it!

If you had followed, you would have discovered that you don't get killed. The opposite happens,

you become REALLY Loved!!

But in any case, that is hardly a central tenent of Christianity.

It is, eventhough it's not so usual to be followed...

Love,
Nelson

You never followed it!

Astute observation.

you become REALLY Loved!!

Egad! Even worse!

It is, eventhough it's not so usual to be followed...

It isn't. Jesus made many references to killing his enemies and torturing them forever.....

Originally posted by Xev

Jesus made many references to killing his enemies and torturing them forever.....

He did? I'd like to read those, if you have them handy to cut and paste.

Adam: Only if you aknowledge my everlasting virtue and eternal superiority....

Matthew
13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

25:45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 16:16

Luke 3:16
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

3:17
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

19:26
For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

There's like, way lots more, but I'm kinda busy.

www.skepticsannotatedbible.com has more

Originally posted by Xev
Adam: Only if you aknowledge my everlasting virtue and eternal superiority....

How about: nup!

Xev,

In ancient Religions there are many baptisms. One of them is the Baptism of Fire.

How do you think is this baptism? You throw yourself into the fire? No.... fire here means energy, life...

The same in those scriptures. Interpretation is Essencial in Religion, Philosophy and even in the News on TV. ;)

Love,
Nelson

You'll pardon my cynicism Nelson, when I tell you that it sounds like your twisting the words to fit your version of whats right and wrong.

Besides, you ignored the others. What say you for them?

*edit* I read over your statements Nelson, and I saw something which I felt I had to point out.

Interpretation is Essencial in Religion

Could you please define " Interpretation " ?. Because the way you wrote it, it sounded almost as if you were implying that the nature of religon is subjective...

Which, of course, proves athiesm correct. Something that is subjective CAN NOT be consider an absolute truth. Why? Because the subjective nature of such a statement undermines the very defintion of truth.

Care to comment?

Tinker683,

Could you please define " Interpretation " ?. Because the way you wrote it, it sounded almost as if you were implying that the nature of religon is subjective...

Interpretation is when you read the hidden meaning of the word instead of the common meaning. You have to interpretate metaphors, for example. Those tools, like metaphors, are used when words are not enough to give a complete view in a subject...

Love,
Nelson

Interpretation is when you read the hidden meaning of the word instead of the common meaning

Huh? " Hidden " meaning? Don't you think that your answer is a tad circular? I mean, seriously Nelson, whats the " hidden " meaning? And how do you know IF THERE IS a hidden meaning?

And you still haven't addressed the other questionable Bible quotes....

Tinker683,

Huh? " Hidden " meaning? Don't you think that your answer is a tad circular? I mean, seriously Nelson, whats the " hidden " meaning? And how do you know IF THERE IS a hidden meaning?

Because it's symbolic... mostly...

And you still haven't addressed the other questionable Bible quotes....

Did it already many times... in many of my posts...
You are not the first one to intepret literally those kind of thing...

Love,
Nelson

Tinker, truthseeker,

Metaphors are most often used in artistic works of fiction and fantasy, of which the bible is probably the most well known.

When texts are written that are intended to represent truth and facts then a full description of the fact is defined and for those items that are complex then examples are given and the use of metaphor is utilized to aid in understanding.

The bible has no facts on which to draw so it skips any attempt to describe facts and goes straight to the use of metaphor and symbolism, especially vague ones so that the reader is free to add his own interpretation to whatever he feels the metaphor/symbol might mean.

The result of this tactic, and where many believe the bible is true, is that everyone has adopted their own interpretations and then attempts to enforce them. This has further resulted in the creation of several hundred Christian sects and cults each with a different interpretation of what the bible might mean.

Fortunately the real result is chaos and in this modern world where precision is becoming increasingly important then fewer people are prepared to accept such works of fiction such as the bible as being in any way useful. The chaos created by the bible and the widespread fracturing of Christian beliefs and dogma should ultimately aid in the death of this 2000-year-old monstrosity known as Christianity.

Cris

Did it already many times... in many of my posts...
You are not the first one to intepret literally those kind of thing...

Never to satisfaction.

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

Luke 19:22-27

I fail to see how this could be taken any way but literally. Nor can you dispute the fact that Jesus 'damned' those who disagreed with him to hell.

Cris: As usual, very well put indeed.

Cris,

When texts are written that are intended to represent truth and facts then a full description of the fact is defined and for those items that are complex then examples are given and the use of metaphor is utilized to aid in understanding.

Not very different from the Bible. The difference is that the Bible talks about God, who can't be explained through words. Then, metaphors are widely used to give the meaning. For example, my own metaphor about the water in the bottle explaining the spirit and the body respectively...


Xev,

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
I already explained this one once, somewhere else. The "enemy" there is not a physical enemy but a... spiritual one. I'll give some examples: greed, selfishness jealousy... those are the "demons" the Bible talk about.

Another thing the Bible point out clearly is that our ONLY enemy is the Devil, which influences people to do whatever is unrighteous.

Love,
Nelson

Love your enemies. How is that ignorant?

Well first of all, it is unbalanced, not to mention extremely illogical. Anyone with even the slightest understanding of human psychology knows that suppressing an emotion is hazardess to your health (physically, mentally and emotionally). Hence the amount of fanaticism we see the world over by those who strictly adhere to organized religion.

Another objection I have against this doctrine is that if you actually live your life this way (which most who profess to do so, in reality do not), if you flounder about your 'love' on all, without selection and discrimination, it loses it's value and becomes meaningless. It's like calling everything you see a specific color, 'blue' for instance. The sky is blue, the grass is blue, the apple is blue....ad infinitum. Blue loses it's meaning. Why love your enemy if they are your enemy? Rather love those deserving of your love and hate those deserving of your hate. Let's give a more specific example:

Say you were married, and you were deeply in love with your spouse. You had a newborn child and were building a life for yourselves. One day, while you were out runnng an errand, some sick depraved psycho breaks into your house, rapes your wife and murders both her and your child. I think this would definetely classify as an 'enemy' in anybody's book. Would you love this person? They have devastated your life and took away the most important people, those who meant more than the world to you. Do they deserve your love? Or do they deserve to pay for what they have done. I say they deserve to pay.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword"

(Jesus Christ, Mt. 10:34)

Cris,

Well said. But I think it only furthers my point: Something that is subjective can't be reguarded as absolute truth. By defintion, it would be a contridiction.

Truthseeker,

Your play as mystisism is well done, but the way you construed the messages from Jesus begs the question: Why are you right, and everybody else in incorrect?

Secondly, why should I not take the messages literally? How am I supposed to infer that the Gospel writers wrote it in metaphors? What if they were speaking factualy?

And noktvs,

Good point.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't go out and butcher the man. No, I'd just presecute him to the furtherest entext of the law. I'd make sure the SoB never saw daylight again.

And if anything, I'd vote to do something else entirely: I'd Scarlet brand him.

Here's a nice, Chrisitian practice done during the witch-hunts that we could all adopt. Put some kind of tatoo on the guys forehead, thats universally defines him as "rapist", and then just let him go out in the public. I wonder how long the bastard would last. And one things for sure, he's love life would come to an abrupt end. WWonder how many ladies would want to date such a person that can't hide his past deeds >=|

Sorry for the long delay between my replies :).

Love your enemies

Is this only limited to X-tians? Perhaps I should have been more specific in my critique. I think X-tianity's message is wonderful, and truly I [try to] live my life by about the same moral code that Christians have. Yet I do it just because I want to be nice. I don't dress it up by saying "It's what God wants" or because of an enoyable afterlife. I'm not saying that the basic morals are what are ignorant, but rather that X-tians seem to display this trait. Many are totally oblivious to the world around them and global activities [granted, there still are the ones who do seem to be informed ;)]. I'm sorry, but I think Christianity narrows thinking and perhaps is a result of narrow thinking. Like I said ealier I grew up in a Catholic home/school, yet I don't believe a word of the Catholic faith. I think it takes a LOT MORE free-thinking and open-mindedness to think differently than my entire environment. Have you ever ONCE questioned the "accuracy" of the bible? Probably not. Now THAT is being ignorant.

I can see how you mis-interpreted my original statement, my apologies. Why do X-tians think that they and ONLY THEY can live a moral life? Just because we are atheist doesn't mean we want life to suck for everyone! Afterall, we believe this is all we get; wouldn't we want to make it more enjoyable for everyone?

noktvs,

Well first of all, it is unbalanced, not to mention extremely illogical. Anyone with even the slightest understanding of human psychology knows that suppressing an emotion is hazardess to your health (physically, mentally and emotionally). Hence the amount of fanaticism we see the world over by those who strictly adhere to organized religion

I'm not talking about supressing your feelings. I'm not talking about pretending you Love your enemy or hiding your feelings about them. I'm talking about really Loving them.

Another objection I have against this doctrine is that if you actually live your life this way (which most who profess to do so, in reality do not), if you flounder about your 'love' on all, without selection and discrimination, it loses it's value and becomes meaningless. It's like calling everything you see a specific color, 'blue' for instance. The sky is blue, the grass is blue, the apple is blue....ad infinitum. Blue loses it's meaning. Why love your enemy if they are your enemy? Rather love those deserving of your love and hate those deserving of your hate. Let's give a more specific

Love is never tiring. Love is extremely dynamic. If everyone Loved everyone, wars, discussions and violence would never exist. Is that enough for you...? ;)

Say you were married, and you were deeply in love with your spouse. You had a newborn child and were building a life for yourselves. One day, while you were out runnng an errand, some sick depraved psycho breaks into your house, rapes your wife and murders both her and your child. I think this would definetely classify as an 'enemy' in anybody's book. Would you love this person? They have devastated your life and took away the most important people, those who meant more than the world to you. Do they deserve your love? Or do they deserve to pay for what they have done. I say they deserve to pay.

Well, Christianily speaking, God would never let such thing happen with a Christian....
Normaly speaking, I say that it's hard to Love such person, but if you want reavenge, the bitterness in your Heart will only get the situation worse...

No matter how hard this could be, I would say you would have to forgive him to have peace again.

Eventhough I know I would not be able to...


Tinker683,

Your play as mystisism is well done, but the way you construed the messages from Jesus begs the question: Why are you right, and everybody else in incorrect?

Love is the base of all Religions. It's written in Galatians 5:14 :

"14 For the whole Law is fulfiled in one word, in the statement,
"YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Secondly, why should I not take the messages literally? How am I supposed to infer that the Gospel writers wrote it in metaphors? What if they were speaking factualy?

First, "the whole Law" is based on Love.
Most of the metaphors that you and many people cite is from the Old Testament. The "Gospel" is from the New Testament. Actually, the New Testament is an explanation about the Old one...

If they were speaking factually, I would say that before God (Love) ruled the world, in the barbarican ages (Old Testament, mostly) then, this would be man's violence, not God's, for God is Love.


supernova_smash,

Yet I do it just because I want to be nice. I don't dress it up by saying "It's what God wants" or because of an enoyable afterlife.

In the Bible it's said that those who do miracles and bless people in God's name only for personal interest, is not recoginzed by God in Heavens... I would post the quote with I find it... ;)

Have you ever ONCE questioned the "accuracy" of the bible? Probably not. Now THAT is being ignorant.

I don't need to. I've read "Love each other" and instantly accepted the Bible. :D:D:D

I can see how you mis-interpreted my original statement, my apologies. Why do X-tians think that they and ONLY THEY can live a moral life? Just because we are atheist doesn't mean we want life to suck for everyone! Afterall, we believe this is all we get; wouldn't we want to make it more enjoyable for everyone?
Most Christians believe that only Jesus can save people, only through Jesus can people go to Heaven. That's why they want everyone to be Christian, it's not that they think others are immoral, they think that the others will burn eternaly in the Hell; then they try to save others.

I belive that the key of salvation is not to accept Jesus in your Heart but to accept Christ. It's a huge difference. Jesus is a person, Christ is an spirit, the Spirit of Love.

Anyone who accept Love in one's Heart, will be saved, which ultimatly means that will live a "heavenly" life and go to Heaven after life. Living a Heavenly life is not only a moral one but also, a fulfilling one.

Love,
Nelson

Matthew 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. SAB. KJV (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/index.html)

Thank you, noktvs.

Care to interpret that one, Nelson?

I already explained this one once, somewhere else. The "enemy" there is not a physical enemy but a... spiritual one. I'll give some examples: greed, selfishness jealousy... those are the "demons" the Bible talk about.

Well let's see.....Let's look at Luke 19:26-27 specifically:

Luke
19:24
And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
19:25
(And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
19:26
For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
19:28
And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem. KJV.

It's quite clear from the preceding Scriptures that physical things, people, are being referred to.

But, let's look at another translation:
Luke 19
23: Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'
24:"Then he said to those standing by, `Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'
25: "`Sir,' they said, `he already has ten!'
26 "He replied, `I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away.
27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"
28 After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. NIV.

First off, we see from Luke 19:26 that Jesus is talking about people, actual things, not constructs.

He wishes to be King over 'greed, selfishness and jealousy'? And how can you kill such things?

We see that Jesus is
A: Speaking in parables, you have that part right.
B: Refering to actual people.

Well, Christianily speaking, God would never let such thing happen with a Christian....
Normaly speaking, I say that it's hard to Love such person, but if you want reavenge, the bitterness in your Heart will only get the situation worse...

Thugs never attack Christians?

And, no, the desire for revenge does not make a situation worse....the unfulfilled desire for revenge does.

Supernova:

I can see how you mis-interpreted my original statement, my apologies. Why do X-tians think that they and ONLY THEY can live a moral life? Just because we are atheist doesn't mean we want life to suck for everyone! Afterall, we believe this is all we get; wouldn't we want to make it more enjoyable for everyone?

A more apt question would be:

Why do you care what they think of you?

Surely, as athiests, we are barred from political office in many places....the common fundie attacks on our (pardon, American?) constitution hurt us athiests a bit more but....

Why should we care what they think? Does it matter whether they think we are amoral or immoral? Will that make us amoral or immoral?

No.

TruthSeeker,



I'm not talking about supressing your feelings. I'm not talking about pretending you Love your enemy or hiding your feelings about them. I'm talking about really Loving them
Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't talking about supressing love, but I meant supressing anger. It would only be natural for someone to feel anger against an act like I described in my other post.
No matter how hard this could be, I would say you would have to forgive him to have peace again. Eventhough I know I would not be able to...
So you admit that what I'm saying is correct? That you wouldn't be able to love such an enemy? There are other alternatives to handeling this situation. Tinker683 brought up a few good suggestions. And here's another thought; For those who practice magic/sorcery, you could rid the world of such a person and not have to go to prison for it. What if you could do such a thing? Wouldn't it satisfy anger to some extent?
Love is never tiring. Love is extremely dynamic. If everyone Loved everyone, wars, discussions and violence would never exist. Is that enough for you...?
Never gonna happen! And why would you want discussions to cease to exsist? What I was trying to get at with my "everything is blue" argument is that everything contains the seed of it's opposite. The whole yin and yang, duality metaphor is not really a metaphor, but represents reality. Male/Female, Black/White, Up/Down Love/Hate , etc... This is the way of things on our earth. Those who are out of balance project too far on one side of the coin and wind up in the end either missing the whole picture (i.e. not having a clue) or eventualy they will act out the opposite of what they were trying to do (think of all the televangelists that preach and preach and preach on how 'sinful' sexual love is and then they're on the news getting busted with a prostitute). I feel it is in fact dangerous to focus on one side of any duality and act as the other does not exsist. You wind up being uncounsciously draw to the other side. "a god ignored is a demon born".
Well, Christianily speaking, God would never let such thing happen with a Christian....
Who told you that? Does this mean that you don't take precaustions in this world, because you think God is protecting you? If so, my advice would be to wake up. ;) Really, I don't mean that in a rude way, but the world is full of crazy folks and it might be nice to feel that they can't do anything to you because you are a Christian, but that is just naive. Even historically we see examples of Christians being persecuted and murdered. Rememeber the whole "Romans feeding Christians to the lions" atrocity? And to bring it more up to date, what about Sarajevo? Ok so you may think "Well, these aren't REALLY Christians, so that is why God lets them be murdered and raped." Ok, let's go back to the bible:

Christ talking to his disciples:

"But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake"

(Lk. 21:12)

and also

"And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death "

(Lk. 21:16)

and one more for now...

"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

(Acts 7: 59-60)




Xev,
Thank you, noktvs.
No problem. I think many Christians tend to downplay the 'hard sayings' of Christ and focus on the 'everything is love' doctrines, which I just don't see when reading the bible as a whole. If you want to understand a book (any book), you have to take things in context, and analyze the entire book, not just the parts you like, especially if you are going to follow that book as the rule of your life.


BTW, It's my Birthday and I'm glad to be alive!!!:D

(noktvs does a little dance around the house, wahooo!!)

Well, Christianily speaking, God would never let such thing happen with a Christian....

Wow, that's a pretty ignorant thing to say!!!!! God would never allow this to happen to a Christian but "He" would look the other way, if it were someone like me, whom he has created(Biblically speaking ofcoarse)

Xev,

Care to interpret that one, Nelson?

Sure I interpret it...

Matthew 10:32-35 :

Christ (Jesus)=Love
Father (God)=Love

"32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. "

Whoever accept Love will be accepted by It...

"33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

If you don't accept Love, you won't be accepted by It.


Those two together mean that if you are loving and kind with people they will act accordingly.

Matthew 7:1-2 :

"1 Do not judge lest you be judged.
2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standart of measure, it will be measured to you."

Continuing...

"34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. "

He came to change the world...

"35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

It means that some people even from your family will disagree with you, if you turn to God, for they don't understand Him...


I will continue it later...

Seeker, I'm seeing you being more and more sinking in that everything-is-love phylosophy. Don't you think that you theories are too much seperated from the real situation tht we have here and will always have. If you look @ the present world then there is too much suffering (less thn in other centuries though) to say tht love manestafetes over all. And human nature won't change. Humans love wars, they love to fight and play dirty. It's a part of us and if we destroy tht part we destroy ourselves. You say tht god is love, but you can not prove tht there is actually a god - ok I quess noone can do that:(, but prove tht we have a need for a god. Also this your phylosophy might appear very fragile in the future- when someone maybe starts to hate you or kills all your family or your girlfriend leaves you (I "pray" this won't happen) and if you start to lose your faith in love then it will be a catostrophe for you.

In conclusion-> I think tht yhou have to work a little more on your life's phylosophy and perception. ok- include love in it, but don't also put all your money on it;)

Cheers!

noktvs: Happy birthday, ja!

Nelson:

Those two together mean that if you are loving and kind with people they will act accordingly

Dear sweet christ. I cannot believe that you are my age.

If you are loving and kind, only loving and kind, people will walk all over you. The trick, Nelson, is to protect yourself yet not lose sight of kindness and decency.

"34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. "

He came to change the world...

Yeah, well I won't argue with you there! He came, by his own admission, to start wars.

Ah, pity this is one of the few Biblical predictions to come true.

"35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

It means that some people even from your family will disagree with you, if you turn to God, for they don't understand Him...

Unfortunatly, that interpretation is not borne out by other Scriptures

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Of course, 1 John 4:21 supports you....true contradictory form :)
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Lightbeing:
Wow, that's a pretty ignorant thing to say!!!!! God would never allow this to happen to a Christian but "He" would look the other way, if it were someone like me, whom he has created(Biblically speaking ofcoarse)

We're talking about a God who destroys fig trees for not bearing fruit out of season......you are expecting what? :D

Avatar and Xev,

but prove tht we have a need for a god.

You already did! :)
We need a God, we need Love.

or your girlfriend leaves you (I "pray" this won't happen)

Alrady did...
I almost destroied my Philosophy. I almost started to hate. Became sad and unkind. She almost kick me out of her life. Until I found out that I should trust myself more. Then, I grew up with it and now I'm manifestating what I want through my attitude in relation to life: Loving each day more and being joyful in this Love. That's how things for me and my ex-girlfriend are each day better. And God knows what will happen next! :)


Look you two, if you prefer the world like it is nowdays, fine, take it. But I don't. I prefer to change it. That's my Philosophy. That's the way I found out that the world can be changed: by Loving each other Unconditionally. And anyone can't prove this wrong to me as it manifest greatfully in my life.

"Where you see a desert, I see an Ocean of Love where everyday we have the opportunity to change the world."
Me! :)

Love,
Nelson

"Where you see a desert, I see an Ocean of Love where everyday we have the opportunity to change the world."
Me! I don't see a desert. To me our present time seems wondorous and beautiful. You do not value what you have got , Seeker. If you deny our world, it can pay you back;):D

Cheers and Good Luck!

I've noticed theists often think of atheists as the people who are on the brink of suicide because thier life sucks. Sorry, that's just not the case.

We may need love, but we don't need some supernatural omniscient being and a promise of everlasting life in paradise to show love to our fellow human beings. And by the way, if you only give your love to others because you have to do it in order to get into heaven it's not really love at all.

I've noticed theists often think of atheists as the people who are on the brink of suicide because thier life sucks. Sorry, that's just not the case.

Wishfull thinking, indeed, Xelios.

Life is wonderful.

Nelson:
You already did!
We need a God, we need Love.

We hardly need to worship God. I love, and I am an athiest. Deal!

Look you two, if you prefer the world like it is nowdays, fine, take it. But I don't. I prefer to change it. That's my Philosophy. That's the way I found out that the world can be changed: by Loving each other Unconditionally. And anyone can prove this wrong to me as it manifest greatfully in my life.

To assume that your way is the only way is the height of arrogance. Does your ego know no bounds?!

Xev,

Matthew 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

As far as I know, there is nowhere is history where Jesus used an actual sword, so obviously his use of the term ‘sword’ is symbolic.
This is the age of Kali-yuga, the age of hypocracy and quarrel, there can be no peace on earth, that is natures law. But Jesus wanted to bring about peace in the heart, realisation of 'self' for whoever cared to listen and follow. So trying to create peace on earth is a futile exercise as we can see from the current global situation.
Jesus, being vaishnav, was well aware of this knowledge.

When there is a predominance of cheating, lying, sloth, sleepiness, violence, depression, lamentation, bewilderment, fear and poverty, that age is Kali, the age of the mode of ignorance

In Kali-yuga men will be wretched and controlled by women. They will reject their fathers, brothers, other relatives and friends and will instead associate with the sisters and brothers of their wives. Thus their conception of friendship will be based exclusively on sexual ties.

Uncultured men will accept charity on behalf of the Lord and will earn their livelihood by making a show of austerity and wearing a mendincants dress. Those who know nothing about religion will mount a high seat and presume to speak on religious principles.

In Kali-yuga men will develop hatred for each other even over a few coins. Giving up all friendly relations, they will be ready to lose their own lives and kill even their own relatives.

In the age of Kali people’s intelligence will be diverted by atheism., and they will almost never offer sacrifice to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the supreme spiritual master of the universe. Although the great personalities who control the three worlds all bow down to the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, the petty and miserable human beings of this age will not do so.

Bhagavat Purana.

In order to progress spiritualy, one must understand that he/she is not this gross/subtle material body, and so anything in relation to the body does not actually belong to ‘you’ including family members, this identification of body as self is the cause of bondage in the material world. Maya or illusion.

Love.

Jan Ardena.

Avatar and Xelios,

That's not what I meant by desert. I was talking about the world's problems like wars, hate, etc...

Besides that, there are LOTS of atheists which lives sucks... much more then the one's who have good lives... as long as I know...

Xelios,

And by the way, if you only give your love to others because you have to do it in order to get into heaven it's not really love at all.

It's said in Matthew 15:7-9 :

Matthew 15:7-9 :

"7 You hypohypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
8 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME
9 BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN"

What does this means? It means that those who worship Him for their own interests (go to Heaven, for instance) are not recognized by Him, as Christians.

For someone to be really Christian and recognized by God as so, intention is absolutly necessary. The intention part is read "but their Heart is far away from me". This means that they don't have the intetion to worship Him, they just do it to go to Heaven, or anything in their own interests.


Xev,

We hardly need to worship God. I love, and I am an athiest. Deal!

Your Love is far away from Unconditional, the True Love...

To assume that your way is the only way is the height of arrogance. Does your ego know no bounds?!

Who said that? I clearly said:

That's my Philosophy. That's the way I found out that the world can be changed: by Loving each other Unconditionally.

MY Philosophy. I'm not saying that this works for everyone, that this is the only path (eventhough it seems the easiest and fastest one...)

And anyone can't prove this wrong to me as it manifest greatfully in my life.

Again, as I said, it works very well for me...

Love,
Nelson

Very well said, Jan! ;):)

Nelson:
Besides that, there are LOTS of atheists which lives sucks... much more then the one's who have good lives... as long as I know...

*Shrugs*

Probably lot's of Christians whose lives suck. The only really unhappy athiests I know are stuck in a godforsaken hellhole in Flori-DUH.

Even they are not on the verge of suicide. Takes a bit more to get rid of us...try again. ;)

Your Love is far away from Unconditional, the True Love...

Yep, I would stop loving if, say, the beloved were to commit some horrible crime.

Other than that, you have no idea what I am talking about.

Jan:
As far as I know, there is nowhere is history where Jesus used an actual sword, so obviously his use of the term ‘sword’ is symbolic.

His use of the term is, but the message stays the same, no?

Say, answer a question if you please:

What is the name of the dwarf under Shiva Nataranja's feet? I can't find it in my books or on Google....alls I get is that it is a personification of ignorence.

Thanks.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Xev
What is the name of the dwarf under Shiva Nataranja's feet? I can't find it in my books or on Google....alls I get is that it is a personification of ignorence.


I don’t know, but I’ll try and find out and let you know.

Love.

Jan Ardena.

Xev,

No.... Christians lives don't suck. Sir. Loone is the EVIDENCE. He is pretty joyful, isn't he?

I know many atheists whose lives suck though...

Other than that, you have no idea what I am talking about.

Yes I have. Even Jesus said it's easy to Love those who are kind with you, but it's hard to Love those who are not.

Love,
Nelson

Thanks Jan.

Nelson:
No.... Christians lives don't suck. Sir. Loone is the EVIDENCE. He is pretty joyful, isn't he?

Dunno, KB sounds kinda bitter. And it would be wrong of me to mention a few people I know but....

You get my point.

And, if Loone is a Christian, which I doubt, he's also rather mental.

I love him though. Damn.

I know many atheists whose lives suck though...

Well, I don't know any. And I am quite happy.

[pointless brag ]I have a lot of studying to do today, and it is finals, but I'm still happy. It's spring, for starters. [/ pointless brag]

[quote]Other than that, you have no idea what I am talking about.
Yes I have. Even Jesus said it's easy to Love those who are kind with you, but it's hard to Love those who are not.

You still have no idea what my personal life is like.

Kindness, bleck, I prefer respect.

Xev,

And, if Loone is a Christian, which I doubt, he's also rather mental.

What do you mean by that...?

Kindness, bleck, I prefer respect.

Both are good to explain it...

Love,
Nelson

I see no need either for your god or you unconditional love. I think tht is complete nonsence and hiding fromthe real world. World can not be changed with unconditional love. Tht is just an artificial concept, and these have never worked out (utopias).... See what communism lead to. But of course you have a right to choose your phylosophy, path and I respect tht right.

Cheers!

Communism is not based on Unconditional Love.
Actually, the human being never tried it out even though most of Religions are based on Unconditional Love.

We never tried, that's why we never had it.

Love,
Nelson

And, if Loone is a Christian, which I doubt, he's also rather mental.

Read his interactions with Adam....God's armpit indeed! :)

But I still think he's an athiest playing a practical joke.

We never tried, that's why we never had it.

Well, have fun with your path. I'll stick to politics and science, but, good luck.

BTW: I'm STILL in a good mood.

comunism was also never tried before........after it destroyed millions of people.........all phylosophyes which are utopic never come true, because they are not ment for human nature... it's simply so easy......be yourself...

Yes... be yourself... :)

And how many people do it...?

Not many...

Love,
Nelson

I am myself - with no unconditional love tht is alien to me;)

Xev,

I searched around as well, and the only "name" I could find for the dwarf under Siva's feet was "apasmara-purusha", but I think this is more of a title then a name. Below is a quote from http://www.historyofindia.com/nataraja.html

"Shiva dances on the body of dwarf apasmara-purusha (the man of forgetfulness) who embodies indifference, ignorance and laziness; creation, indeed all creative energy, is opposed to and possible only when the weight of inertia (the tamasic darkness of the universe) is overcome and suppressed. Each individual is addressed by this image and urged to get over his own slag and take sustenance from the play of divine energy which is manifested everywhere. For, circle of fire and light which circumscribes the entire image identifies the field of the dance with entire universe. The lotus pedestal on which the image rests locates this universe in the heart or consciousness of each person."

If you are really yourself, you have Unconditional Love as you are a LOVE BEING!!

You are still to be self-aware Avatar....
Many here are...

Love,
Nelson

Thanks noktvs!

Avatar: "Be yourself" - How can a person be anything but himself? :)

Nelson: Ego, ego, ego. You have yet to prove any of your 'unconditional love' theories, yet you tell Avatar that they are not self aware?

P.S: I'm a little less happy now.....I'm sleepy and I have a lot of work to do. But it's going to be hard to get this athiest to commit suicide in a world where wonderful things like sushi and cute men and the novels of H.P Lovecraft exist. ;)

Sushi!
Xev

Xev,

"Be yourself" - How can a person be anything but himself?

You don't know how many people use drugs, smoke and drink only to be "on" or "in" or whatever and destroy themselves only because of peer presure and low self-esteem... In which world do you live...?

Nelson: Ego, ego, ego. You have yet to prove any of your 'unconditional love' theories, yet you tell Avatar that they are not self aware?

If you want I can lie to him and say that he is very self-aware... but than I would prove me wrong as it's impossible to lie to someone that you Love unconditionally...

Love,
Nelson

You don't know how many people use drugs, smoke and drink only to be "on" or "in" or whatever and destroy themselves only because of peer presure and low self-esteem... In which world do you live...?

They are making a choice - in doing so, they are being themselves.

Am I not I? Am I myself? Then how can I be other than myself?

If you want I can lie to him and say that he is very self-aware... but than I would prove me wrong as it's impossible to lie to someone that you Love unconditionally...

No, I don't care. I doubt Avatar is hurt, and I am not, so why should I?

However, it is very egotistical to claim that you know whether or not a person is self aware, especially since you yourself have admitted that your standards of 'awareness' are proven. I do care about you, and I don't want to see you become egotistical.

Sushi!,
Xev

Xev,

They are making a choice - in doing so, they are being themselves.

I meant really being themselves, who they truly are, intead of mimiquing someone else for some stupid meaningless readon.

In the way you speak, I honestly think you are like them, but choosing better models...

There are LOTS of models in nowdays culture. You can see people saying: "I want to be like... when I grow up". That's stupid. You have to be yourself, without modeling yourself in the image of other people. That's the natural result of a meaningless superficial society that we have, where image is more important then, Essence.

No, I don't care. I doubt Avatar is hurt, and I am not, so why should I?

Who said you or Avatar is hurt?

However, it is very egotistical to claim that you know whether or not a person is self aware, especially since you yourself have admitted that your standards of 'awareness' are proven. I do care about you, and I don't want to see you become egotistical.

There are some signals of self-awareness. I recognize them clearly in Banshee, for example. I honestly don't recognize them in Avatar and you. I'm not saying you are not self-aware. I'm just saying that your level of self-awareness seem low to the common spiritual standart. Explainable when you are an atheist...

Love,
Nelson

Again, sorry for the lateness. This one is mainly for an earlier comment made by Xev:

I said:I can see how you mis-interpreted my original statement, my apologies. Why do X-tians think that they and ONLY THEY can live a moral life? Just because we are atheist doesn't mean we want life to suck for everyone! Afterall, we believe this is all we get; wouldn't we want to make it more enjoyable for everyone?


Xev replied:

A more apt question would be:

Why do you care what they think of you?

Surely, as athiests, we are barred from political office in many places....the common fundie attacks on our (pardon, American?) constitution hurt us athiests a bit more but....

Why should we care what they think? Does it matter whether they think we are amoral or immoral? Will that make us amoral or immoral? No.


People can think whatever the hell they want about me. What I'm complaining about is that fact that the "holier than thou" attitude of most x-tians seems to only further the idea of their "ignorance", although I am getting quite sick of that word. I just hate how Christians think "you have to believe in this hocus pocus to see truth yadda yadda..." if a person loves, which is what Truthseeker seems to be stuck on, does it matter if they believe the Bible or not? Why do they seem to think it must be done in the name of X-tianity rather than the name of humanity?

Oh well. No one is making me listen ;).

Truthseeker:
I don't need to. I've read "Love each other" and instantly accepted the Bible.
Does this mean you have accepted the literal substance of the Bible [ie creation, the exodus, life of Jesus etc] as TRUTHS of history? I hope not...or maybe I hope so, because if you do, you would only be making my original point more valid. Accepting the "events" of the bible as fact simply because the underlying moral appeals to you is one of the most obvious displays of x-tian ignorance that I have ever seen/heard.

hmmmmm, i don't even feel like thinking or arguing right now, all i want to do is finish my Cheerios and go to bed...;) me tired

Originally posted by Xev
Thanks noktvs!

Avatar: "Be yourself" - How can a person be anything but himself? :) Was meaning like--- all tht shit tht is now given to the youth. You are forced to believe tht Britney Spears is great. You are provided only with these sweet-sugar-pops..... You have been taken away the choice if your radio station runs N'Sync 24h/day. You are eating @ Mc Donalds because it's marketing campaign is targeted @ you. You believe in bible and all tht gibberish just because all your family does..........
This won't apply to people with stronger charecter- but weaker- their carachter is changed over the time into any dirrection. Tht is not their free will- they are forced or brainwashed to believe in smth or I-must-buy-tht-thing factor.

Cheers!

Nelson:
There are some signals of self-awareness. I recognize them clearly in Banshee, for example. I honestly don't recognize them in Avatar and you. I'm not saying you are not self-aware. I'm just saying that your level of self- awareness seem low to the common spiritual standart. Explainable when you are an atheist...

Such as? Come on boy, where's your evidence? :)

But of course I am self-aware.....only not in you New Age sense. We all are.

Supernova:
People can think whatever the hell they want about me. What I'm complaining about is that fact that the "holier than thou" attitude of most x-tians seems to only further the idea of their "ignorance", although I am getting quite sick of that word. I just hate how Christians think "you have to believe in this hocus pocus to see truth yadda yadda..." if a person loves, which is what Truthseeker seems to be stuck on, does it matter if they believe the Bible or not? Why do they seem to think it must be done in the name of X- tianity rather than the name of humanity?

Good question, and I feel the same way. But they feel 'special' when they believe that crap. They are better than the rest of the world, which gives them a bit of an ego boost, and makes their boring lives seem romantic and interesting.

Luckily, most Americans are only nominal Christians. What concerns me is the fundies, who are most vocal and powerful.

Avatar:
No question that people are being taught to conform, I see your point now.

But no-one is forced. They can do whatever they please, they are simply too weak to do anything but go along.

Sushi!,

Xev

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TruthSeeker
There are LOTS of models in nowdays culture. You can see people saying: "I want to be like... when I grow up". That's stupid. You have to be yourself, without modeling yourself in the image of other people. That's the natural result of a meaningless superficial society that we have, where image is more important than, Essence.

Very good point TS.

That is the plan of Iblis (Lucifer), to dis-engage the human being from his natural spiritual inclination, knowledge of self and of our eternal Father, thereby creating the illusion that we are these bodies and that there is no god, or no life after this. This is why it says in the bible "The fool hath said there is no god," because we have been tricked, bamboozeled, fooled.
This is not something which started to happen a few years ago, it is a plan which began before the placing of Adam on this Earth.
But he cannot just take these things away without replacing them with something else, or by force, because these ideals are natural within the human psyche. This is why situations are constantly changeing, not giving the human a chance to collect his thoughts properly, and eventually, over generaations, bring the soul to the level of animal consciousness. Once consciousness is low, the human becomes very easy to manipulate. So he uses idols (celebs/spots stars//designers etc..) for us to worship and thus forget about worship of the Absolute Truth.
Here is a conversation between God (Allah) and His angels in heaven, taken from the Qur’an.

And then We said unto the angels:
61. And when We said unto the angels: “Fall down prostrate before Adam” and they fell prostrate except, Iblis, he said: “Shall I fall prostrate to one whom you have created from clay?”
62. He said: “Seest You? This is the one whom You have honoured above me” If You give me grace until the Day of Judgement, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway – all but a few.”

Love

Jan Ardena.

That is the plan of Iblis (Lucifer), to dis-engage the human being from his natural spiritual inclination, knowledge of self and of our eternal Father, thereby creating the illusion that we are these bodies and that there is no god, or no life after this. This is why it says in the bible "The fool hath said there is no god," because we have been tricked, bamboozeled, fooled.

Waaaaa! Jan is calling me names!

*Sobs*

Now my eyeliner is running.

This is not something which started to happen a few years ago, it is a plan which began before the placing of Adam on this Earth.

He'll be pleased to hear that.

So he uses idols (celebs/spots stars//designers etc..) for us to worship and thus forget about worship of the Absolute Truth.

You forgot to mention Linux worship.

Sushi!,

Xev, in a decidedly smart-ass mood

I'm a (web)designer , Jan:D:D:D


how did you know?:D

TruthSeeker wroteThere are some signals of self-awareness. I recognize them clearly in Banshee, for example. I honestly don't recognize them in Avatar and you. I'm not saying you are not self-aware. I'm just saying that your level of self-awareness seem low to the common spiritual standart. Explainable when you are an atheist...

Can you elaborate on what signals of self awareness you are talking about? Your comments seem like a form of double-speak. On one hand you're saying that you don't think Avatar and Xev are self aware, than on the other hand you're saying they are but just not as aware as you or Banshee because they're not 'spiritual'.

Let's look at some definitions of the term 'self-awareness'

as an adjective:

"Aware of oneself, including one's traits, feelings, and behaviors."

(American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)

as a noun:

"awareness of your own individuality."

(Worldnet, Princeton University)


These definitions are very logical and have nothing to do with religious beliefs or doctrines. Most atheists I know are extremely self-aware because they have chosen to examine who they are and what they think about the universe and life for themselves, rather than be told what to think by others (like religious leaders, authorities in some hierarchy, gods, angels or holy-books). Of course, there are exceptions within both the religious perspective as well as the atheist perspective, but it has been my experience that religion tends to feed you doctrine and atheism tends to promote individual understanding (i.e. self-awareness).

noktvs:
On one hand you're saying that you don't think Avatar and Xev are self aware, than on the other hand you're saying they are but just not as aware as you or Banshee because they're not 'spiritual'.

Basically, Nelson believes that one is self-aware if they have 'love in thier hearts'. Not love in the normal sense, but some conception of a omnipresent, cosmic 'Unconditional Love', which he has yet to show evidence for the existance of.

*Sigh*

Unfortunatly, asking for evidence leads to Nelson attacking his 'opponents' as 'closed-minded', 'compulsive-obsessive rationalists' and 'frightened children'.

I wish he would realize that we simply want him to show evidence for his conclusions...unfortunatly, Nelson will have to grow up and control his ego before that can happen.

P.S: Banshee posts folk's autopsy photos....if being self aware is being that callous, I want no part of it!

Sushi!,
Xev

Originally posted by Avatar
I'm a (web)designer , Jan:D:D:D
how did you know?:D

Sorry!
I don't getchya. :confused:

Love

Jan Ardena.

So he uses idols (celebs/spots stars//designers etc..) for us to worship and thus forget about worship of the Absolute Truth. Was it not you, who said tht Jan?

Originally posted by Avatar
Was it not you, who said tht Jan?


What's your point?

Love

Jan Ardena.

supernova_smash,

Does this mean you have accepted the literal substance of the Bible [ie creation, the exodus, life of Jesus etc] as TRUTHS of history? I hope not...or maybe I hope so, because if you do, you would only be making my original point more valid. Accepting the "events" of the bible as fact simply because the underlying moral appeals to you is one of the most obvious displays of x-tian ignorance that I have ever seen/heard.

For many years I believed that the Bible is almost completly metaphors and allegories (instead Jesus, there IS evidence of His existance...). I believed that Genesis, Exodus and so on were purely ways to explain it. Today, I don't know. I still believe it's not History, but I opened the possibility for those things to be right. For now, they are only allegories about the human psyche...


Xev,

But of course I am self-aware.....only not in you New Age sense. We all are.

We are ALL self-aware. But spiritualized people have hightly increased self-awareness.


Jan,

Good point!:)
Well... I guess that's why it's so hard to awake those people, skeptics, because they are far away from themselves... :(


noktvs,

As I said to Xev, spiritualized people have increased self-awareness. For iunstance, everyone is self-aware since their childhood. Self-awareness is started being developed by the baby in a very young age. It increases but has a limit. You are in the limit. You seem not more self-aware then a child. That's natural. You look to a mirror, you see yourself, you know that it's yourself in the mirror.

Anyways... what the spiritualized person experience is an increased self-awareness caused by a subjection of the ego in relation to one's Highter Self. That's what causes the increased self-awareness of spiritualized people. I see clearly that many people here don't have this contact with their Highter Selves, and instead, I see their egos speaking.

The greaters sings of self-awareness are:

Decreased rational thinking
Increased intuition
Increased perception of Love
Increased valorization of Nature



Xev,

I wish he would realize that we simply want him to show evidence for his conclusions...unfortunatly, Nelson will have to grow up and control his ego before that can happen.

The EVIDENCE can only be gained by increased self-awareness... :bugeye: :bugeye:


Love,
Nelson

We are ALL self-aware.

Of course.

Good point!
Well... I guess that's why it's so hard to awake those people, skeptics, because they are far away from themselves...

What?! I've tried to be nice, Nelson, haven't I? :confused:

Whatever.

Anyways... what the spiritualized person experience is an increased self- awareness caused by a subjection of the ego in relation to one's Highter Self. That's what causes the increased self-awareness of spiritualized people. I see clearly that many people here don't have this contact with their Highter Selves, and instead, I see their egos speaking.

You think you know the secrets of the universe, at eighteen, and you can tell people how they ought to debate, and you complain about OTHER people's egos?!

Even the complaint is evidence of egotism! As if you, knowing none of us, can say who has contact with thier 'higher self' - whose existance you have yet to demonstrate!

The EVIDENCE can only be gained by increased self-awareness...

Begs the question (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html)

Xev,

Even the complaint is evidence of egotism! As if you, knowing none of us, can say who has contact with thier 'higher self' - whose existance you have yet to demonstrate!

It can be said by your attitudes and beliefs...

Love,
Nelson

Oh NO, Nelson is starting to write in colorful big letters. Loone must be getting to him. My people, we must save him before it is too late.:D :D :D :D

Spiritualized people have increased self-awareness.

I would argue that "spiritualized people" have decreased self-awareness. They tend to attribute everything to invisible external powers and forces. "Non-spiritual" people must find the answers for their emotions, beliefs, drives, and thoughts within themselves. They can't blame the devil for the nasty thoughts or actions they might commit, they can't deny responsibility for their actions and consider themselves absolved via a "higher-power". They have to deal with the tough issues within rather than leaving explanation to God.

I see clearly that many people here don't have this contact with their Highter Selves, and instead, I see their egos speaking.

"I see clearly" Hmmm… rather a lot of ego showing in that statement.

The greaters sings of self-awareness are:

Decreased rational thinking
Increased intuition
Increased perception of Love
Increased valorization of Nature
I'm sorry, but this is absurd. A sign of self-awareness is decreased rational thinking? So lunatics are the most self-aware people? One should wish for a dissociative disorder? Oh, wait. That would be deductive logic and therefore rational thought…

Query: How can one use the irrational to rationalize the irrational?

Oh my… I think I just hurt myself.

~Raithere

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
[/i]
What's your point?

.nothing. forget it.
Truth Seeker: It can be said by your attitudes and beliefs... And those beliefs and attitudes are appled to your standarts, right? ...where were those.....
1>Decreased rational thinking
2>Increased intuition
3>Increased perception of Love
4>Increased valorization of Nature
.......
1> I think tht rational thinking is the main thing for self-awarness.......if I won't be rational about my mind, hell knows what will I start to think about it......rational thinking leads to self awarness (mind tht it is not equal scepticism)
2>could agree
3>it is questionable and I see tht this point is affected by your uncnditional love phylosophy.... you can not put this as an evidence to self awarness because it is an assumption. give us evidence how unconditional love affects self-awarness.
4> maybe... but mind I simply passionate nature, I love it, I am one with it---> and you call me not self-aware.....

I am not cmpletely self aware, I admit it, but not because of your unconditional love theories or whatever you might think....I have my own standarts and I during time I'll possibly come to nwe ones. I have had simply not enough time to explore myself and I doubt you did.......calling oneself completely self-aware @ the age of 18 is not wise.....give it a little more time.

Cheers and Good Luck

Query: How can one use the irrational to rationalize the irrational? Accept all as real. That's the best answer I can possibly give.

For instance, if a friend has (or hasn't) taken something and happens to be seeing nine-headed cactus demons, it's usually best to not attempt to forcefully insert reality--e.g. that the demon isn't there--but to work with the situation as if it was real.

After a while it becomes habitual. You stop telling people to leave you alone because "they have no right" and start dealing with whatever it brings.

Being that many atheists speak of rationality and irrationality as a base comparison against other philosophies, it's worth wondering what identification and persecution of the irrational gets in human terms. When it gets down to individuals, it's simply a matter of where one chooses to stop dealing compassionately with people.

At the end of the day, identity labels are something twixt you and yourself, so it seems the only thing at stake when putting aside the more observable aspects of life is a few minutes of understanding and the psychology of control.

All theories of life, the Universe, and everything (or specific lacks thereof) are only comparative in their final value. That is, at the end of life, what will one say of another? He never understood people at all, and rejected their idiosyncracies. As a result died alone, but at least he had his principles. When human behavior is defined rationally, perhaps I'll think differently about such things. In the meantime, though, the only way to achieve rational results from irrational factors and devices is to accept the results as rational end results.

Sometimes it's necessary and sometimes it can be left to one's discretion. But whether or not one wants to accept the real condition that human beings exist, the life of the purely rational--much like the purely religious--is best kept by a hermit.

Here, Star Trek fans anywhere? Try this TNG idea: Prove to Commander Data that he exists in such a manner as to not require irrationaility in the results. Think of it this way: explain the value of human life as compared to any other product of the Universe without sinking into irrationality.

Most Americans probably remember how much they hated their "be" verbs.

I can't imagine why.

"I am," as a factual conclusion, is the most irrational idea to ever occur to us. As a result, most people are still unsure as to whether or not they even exist. Insofar as I can tell, the Judeo-Christian influence has resulted in a large forfeiture of the concept of existence (and rationality) in order to find comfort in the vagary.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by tiassa
Accept all as real. That's the best answer I can possibly give.

Accept all as real? Just as well to accept nothing as real. Which then falls into Transcendentalism or Descartian philosophy. Everything and nothing propositions are meaningless. Without a ruler there is no measure.

For instance, if a friend has (or hasn't) taken something and happens to be seeing nine-headed cactus demons, it's usually best to not attempt to forcefully insert reality--e.g. that the demon isn't there--but to work with the situation as if it was real.

And if the friend doesn't stop seeing the cactus demons? If he picks up a rifle and runs down the street blazing away at nothing real but killing others in the process? Should we maybe think about inserting a little reality at that point? Or should you pick up another rifle and join him. After all, we're accepting his delusion as real.

Being that many atheists speak of rationality and irrationality as a base comparison against other philosophies, it's worth wondering what identification and persecution of the irrational gets in human terms. When it gets down to individuals, it's simply a matter of where one chooses to stop dealing compassionately with people.

Persecution seems a bit strong a word. I'd call it debate and argument. And I don't think that you're seeing Atheists attacking irrationality. What you see is Atheists attacking irrational argument used as proof. This is usually a simple matter of circular logic.

My post, to which you replied, was in response to Jan and Nelson's arguments regarding self-awareness. Nelson attributes self-aware people with decreased rationality. Which makes no sense. The more I am aware about myself, my thoughts, my emotions the more rational I become. That is not to say that all my thoughts and emotions are rational, they're not. But the determinations I make relating to them are (or at least I try to make them so I can't say I'm 100% successful).

This is akin to a child becoming an adult. A child has something taken away and feels loss and rage, the child acts out in aggression and smacks the offender. An adult, with an increased self-awareness and other-awareness, has more control over the process. The adult still feels the emotions, but they are more highly aware of the process.

At the end of the day, identity labels are something twixt you and yourself, so it seems the only thing at stake when putting aside the more observable aspects of life is a few minutes of understanding and the psychology of control.

Labels do not define reality. Reality is the measure of the label.

All theories of life, the Universe, and everything (or specific lacks thereof) are only comparative in their final value.

Hardly. There are many ways of determining their relative value... of course, first you have to determine what value you wish to measure...

In the meantime, though, the only way to achieve rational results from irrational factors and devices is to accept the results as rational end results.

I'm not even sure I understand this point. What are you saying here? What irrational factors and results are you speaking of?

Here, Star Trek fans anywhere? Try this TNG idea: Prove to Commander Data that he exists in such a manner as to not require irrationaility in the results. Think of it this way: explain the value of human life as compared to any other product of the Universe without sinking into irrationality.

Data's dilemma is a human invention derived from human ego. The only value human life has over, let's say, an orange is that a human life can purposefully affect the universe. Of course, this is a subjective value judgment. It's based upon my being human. If I we're the orange I would probably think oranges were better than humans… at least you don't see an orange squishing up humans and drinking their juice. Better to just hang there on the tree and do nothing but be orange.

"I am," as a factual conclusion, is the most irrational idea to ever occur to us.

How so? If you ask "Am I?" who is asking?

~Raithere

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
I see that...

You never followed it!

If you had followed, you would have discovered that you don't get killed. The opposite happens,

you become REALLY Loved!!

It is, eventhough it's not so usual to be followed...What if you can not communicate with your enemy? Can you show love to them? Do you consider the disease spreading tiger mosquitos friends or enemies? Is your love going to make them stop spreading disease to you while sucking your blood?

You must know that there are many living things in this world whose sole-purpose is to kill you whenever possible. You can avoid them, kill them, but never love them.

If you show love to everything, you are ignorant.

Raithere,

I would argue that "spiritualized people" have decreased self-awareness. They tend to attribute everything to invisible external powers and forces. "Non-spiritual" people must find the answers for their emotions, beliefs, drives, and thoughts within themselves. They can't blame the devil for the nasty thoughts or actions they might commit, they can't deny responsibility for their actions and consider themselves absolved via a "higher-power". They have to deal with the tough issues within rather than leaving explanation to God.

It's exactly the opposite. Spiritualized people get the answers within. Rationalized people get from lies from the media and outside circumstances, that you call EVIDENCE. You yourselves said this...

"I see clearly" Hmmm… rather a lot of ego showing in that statement.

Anyone that has a minimum basis on Psychology can see this really clearly...

I'm sorry, but this is absurd. A sign of self-awareness is decreased rational thinking? So lunatics are the most self-aware people? One should wish for a dissociative disorder? Oh, wait. That would be deductive logic and therefore rational thought…

Lunatics actually think a lot... If "lunatics" wouldn't think, they wouldn't be "lunatics" as this is a "disease" cause by excess of thinking...


Avatar,

1> I think tht rational thinking is the main thing for self-awarness.......if I won't be rational about my mind, hell knows what will I start to think about it......rational thinking leads to self awarness (mind tht it is not equal scepticism)

First mistake. And very common...
Rational thinking creates confusion. This is actually clearly stated in ALL ancient Philosophies and Religions of the world. taoism, for example, states that rational thinking creates confusion as it is based on the pluralism of the Dualist World.

They, and many others, also stated that self-awarenes is attained by inner processes of purification of mind and inner silence.

3>it is questionable and I see tht this point is affected by your uncnditional love phylosophy.... you can not put this as an evidence to self awarness because it is an assumption. give us evidence how unconditional love affects self-awarness.

Sorry, other way around. Self-awareness affects Love. That's because your perception of reality and of yourself is broaded and you begin to see beauty in the world. You see how the world really is and how you really is. Self-awareness also widely open your Heart, influencing as I said before, intuition.

I am not cmpletely self aware, I admit it, but not because of your unconditional love theories or whatever you might think....I have my own standarts and I during time I'll possibly come to nwe ones. I have had simply not enough time to explore myself and I doubt you did.......calling oneself completely self-aware @ the age of 18 is not wise.....give it a little more time.

I'm pretty sure I said somewhere that I'm not totally self-aware... if I didn't, I do it now. I'm going there... total self-awareness is THE Truth. I'm TruthSeeker. Perhaps I'm a Truth Speaker as a friend said... but if it's so, the Truth speaks through me, without passing through my conscient...


daktaklakpak,

You must know that there are many living things in this world whose sole-purpose is to kill you whenever possible. You can avoid them, kill them, but never love them.

Truly, you totally ignore the fact that animals kills to survive, not to get a trophy like human beings...

Love,
Nelson

"It's exactly the opposite. Spiritualized people get the answers within. Rationalized people get from lies from the media and outside circumstances, that you call EVIDENCE. You yourselves said this..."

Yes! Now you get it! 'Spiritualized' people think they have all the answers. A true rationalist realizes he does not know everything.


"Anyone that has a minimum basis on Psychology can see this really clearly.."

That's about the kind of base I've seen you have....


"Lunatics actually think a lot... If "lunatics" wouldn't think, they wouldn't be "lunatics" as this is a "disease" cause by excess of thinking..."

All insanity is caused by too much thinking? Ouch, maybe you have less psychology than I even sarcastically implied in my last comment.


"Rational thinking creates confusion. This is actually clearly stated in ALL ancient Philosophies and Religions of the world. taoism, for example, states that rational thinking creates confusion as it is based on the pluralism of the Dualist World"

All philosophies? Neitzsche said that we should be spiritual? What? Where? Hume? Stalin? Lenin? Where?

What is self awareness nelson? Your 'inner child'? Your true self? This can be found through rational thinking. You can very logically figure out who you are as a person.


"Rationalized people get from lies from the media and outside circumstances, that you call EVIDENCE. You yourselves said this..."

Um.....no. Evidence is a supporting fact to a theory. Prove to me gravity without evidence and I'll become a Christian. You have to understand that every ounce of science is based on evidence, right? And how are you so sure that the media is my basis for everything? And is everything the media says a lie? Did you know religion has forever been a large part of the media?


"I'm pretty sure I said somewhere that I'm not totally self-aware... if I didn't, I do it now. I'm going there... total self-awareness is THE Truth. I'm TruthSeeker. Perhaps I'm a Truth Speaker as a friend said... but if it's so, the Truth speaks through me, without passing through my conscient..."

You have said it. But you haven't shown anything to prove it. So far I have only seen you realize that god cannot be proved through logic or science. That is a big step, but nothing else has shown. You have yet to admitt you've been wrong.

Tyler,

Yes! Now you get it! 'Spiritualized' people think they have all the answers. A true rationalist realizes he does not know everything.

Taoist Philosophy: realizes that you don't know everything and seeking answers within oneself, ignoring circumstances.

A true rationalist says: I know everything. I know Quantum Physics. I know Astrophysics. I know...

I know that rationalists do that because I were one. I found out that I was really ignorant, turned to myself to answer the questions, and got some of them. Still seeking some. Not rationally (sometimes...) but mostly... internally...

All insanity is caused by too much thinking? Ouch, maybe you have less psychology than I even sarcastically implied in my last comment.

Have you ever read any Psychology? By your statement I clearly see that you never did...

All philosophies? Neitzsche said that we should be spiritual? What? Where? Hume? Stalin? Lenin? Where?

I said all ancient Philosophies, Religions and Mythologies...
Modern Psychology talks about it too...

What is self awareness nelson? Your 'inner child'? Your true self? This can be found through rational thinking. You can very logically figure out who you are as a person.

You can't put an ocean inside a bottle...

Um.....no. Evidence is a supporting fact to a theory. Prove to me gravity without evidence and I'll become a Christian. You have to understand that every ounce of science is based on evidence, right? And how are you so sure that the media is my basis for everything? And is everything the media says a lie? Did you know religion has forever been a large part of the media?

LARGE!?!?!? I've NEVER seen ANY Religion on TV!!! :bugeye:

You have said it. But you haven't shown anything to prove it. So far I have only seen you realize that god cannot be proved through logic or science. That is a big step, but nothing else has shown. You have yet to admitt you've been wrong.

Why don't YOU try to explain Him RATIONALLY? I would sit down and relax seeing you going crazy... :D:D

As I said... rational thinking can cause insanity (in excess, of course)
Too much thinking destroy one's inner peace and creates anxienty...

Trying to explain God rationally is suicide. Even Alchemists said that... ;)

I'm giving you and people a book to read pretty soon... ;)

Love,
Nelson

"Taoist Philosophy: realizes that you don't know everything and seeking answers within oneself, ignoring circumstances.

A true rationalist says: I know everything. I know Quantum Physics. I know Astrophysics. I know...

I know that rationalists do that because I were one. I found out that I was really ignorant, turned to myself to answer the questions, and got some of them. Still seeking some. Not rationally (sometimes...) but mostly... internally..."

Ahhhhh, so having been a logician (a failed one), you can speak on behalf of every one of us? (the ego goes on...and on....). I personally have admitted time and time again that I don't know everything. I know very little as a matter of fact. You are the one who claims to know every question I have about the universe.


"you ever read any Psychology? By your statement I clearly see that you never did.."

Yes, and I know all insanity is not caused by over thinking. Over-thinking can easily be a sympton though.


"You can't put an ocean inside a bottle..."

First you say that our true selves are simply and just our inner-child. Now you metaphorically relate it to an ocean? I dont get it....


"LARGE!?!?!? I've NEVER seen ANY Religion on TV!!!"

How about everything before the 1960s? Everything was religious oriented pretty much. Or destroy-the-commies oriented, which was used with religion too.

And are you talking about Canada nelson? Look to israel and the middle east. Or culture in africa. Or europe....


"Why don't YOU try to explain Him RATIONALLY? I would sit down and relax seeing you going crazy..."

Um, I think you know I dont believe in god."

Tyler,

Ahhhhh, so having been a logician (a failed one), you can speak on behalf of every one of us? (the ego goes on...and on....). I personally have admitted time and time again that I don't know everything. I know very little as a matter of fact. You are the one who claims to know every question I have about the universe.

By realizing that rationalism can't explain everything and by practicing Taoist and Buddhist meditation, I found out that rationalism is extremely limited by what we already know. Since we don't know most of the Universe, rationalism is meaningless and a lost of time...

First you say that our true selves are simply and just our inner-child. Now you metaphorically relate it to an ocean? I dont get it....

In a simple analogy...
Our Highter Selves, Inner Childs (two names for same thing) is the ocean. Our egos is the part of the iceberg above water. Our subconscient is the part below water. By the subconscient, you get to your Highter Self (subconscient below water...). Your ego is just a little part.

What happens with people that are not very self-aware is that they see themselves in their egos, instead of searching in your subconscient. This leads to rationalization and more and more distance between you (ego) adn Highter Self (your true identity).

I wrote more on this on "The Wiccan Rede..." and I'll write it again or in "The Essential Laws of the Universe" or a new thread or both....

How about everything before the 1960s? Everything was religious oriented pretty much. Or destroy-the-commies oriented, which was used with religion too.

And are you talking about Canada nelson? Look to israel and the middle east. Or culture in africa. Or europe....

Religion is used by rational people to get power and money as it influences people's beliefs...
Even the Bible talks about "the evil in the Holy place"... ;)

Um, I think you know I dont believe in god.

Honestly, that is closing your mind to the possibility...

Love,
Nelson

Um, I think you know I dont believe in god.

Darling!

Sorry.

Nelson replied:
Honestly, that is closing your mind to the possibility...

No, not really. We athiests would believe if there was some sort of evidence....fact is, there isn't.

No, not really. We athiests would believe if there was some sort of evidence....fact is, there isn't.

Wait for my new thread... ;)

"By realizing that rationalism can't explain everything and by practicing Taoist and Buddhist meditation, I found out that rationalism is extremely limited by what we already know. Since we don't know most of the Universe, rationalism is meaningless and a lost of time..."

Welcome to reality. Rationalism can't figure out everything. Rationalists realize this. Spirituality offers all the answers quite easily. Some people instinctively go to the easy way out.


"Religion is used by rational people to get power and money as it influences people's beliefs...
Even the Bible talks about "the evil in the Holy place"..."

human nature.



"Honestly, that is closing your mind to the possibility..."

Did I say I would never be religious? No, I said at the moment I am not. And this is the way I look at it. There was no Christ. Then he apparently happened. Way I see it, Christians claim Christ existed. If you make the claim, you prove it. I dont believe until proof is presented.

Tyler,

Welcome to reality. Rationalism can't figure out everything. Rationalists realize this. Spirituality offers all the answers quite easily. Some people instinctively go to the easy way out.

Spirituality as it's stated itself is to seek an understanding of the Universe by looking inside ourselves.

Again: conscient-->subconscient-->supraconscient

Did I say I would never be religious? No, I said at the moment I am not. And this is the way I look at it. There was no Christ. Then he apparently happened. Way I see it, Christians claim Christ existed. If you make the claim, you prove it. I dont believe until proof is presented.

Well... there IS historical EVIDENCE of his existance...

Love,
Nelson

truthseeker,

Well... there IS historical EVIDENCE of his existance... No there isn't. All claimed evidence is heavily disputed.

This is curious since there are many well known historical figures that pre-date the Jesus claim whoose existence and actions are extremly well recorded and documented.

But the the alleged savior of mankind and the son of the creator of the universe is not accompanied by any convincing documentation or historical records.

But the the alleged savior of mankind and the son of the creator of the universe is not accompanied by any convincing documentation or historical records.

Not what I've seen...

truthseeker,

I found out that rationalism is extremely limited by what we already know. Since we don't know most of the Universe, rationalism is meaningless and a lost of time...And the alternative is what? Guessing and creating fictional fantasies, and that is exactly what religions do.

If rationalism is a waste of time for working with facts, then anything else must be an even greater waste of time for depending on what is not known, i.e. fantasies – the realm of religion.

Cris

truthseeker,

Not what I've seen...What have you seen?

ts,

Wait for my new thread... You pompous pratt.

My new thread: "For skeptics, rationalists and atheists of sciforums: Book suggestion" (http://www.sciforums.com/t7051/s/thread.html)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cris
ts,
You pompous pratt.

Hmmmmm!!!! sounds like your losing it Cris.

Love

Jan Ardena.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TruthSeeker
It's exactly the opposite. Spiritualized people get the answers within. Rationalized people get from lies from the media and outside circumstances, that you call EVIDENCE. You yourselves said this...

I have no problem with the inner journey. Indeed, one can find some answers there that cannot be found in reality. The problem comes when one starts trying to apply that inner truth as if it were a universal truth. Everyone's inner journey is their own and no two are alike. To try and foist your inner truth on others is wrong for each person has their own and it's is just as truthful to them as yours is to you. There's also a problem when trying to apply one's inner truth as external reality. While you can try and deny external reality you'll usually come up short. The person who believes they can fly, unaided, usually finds external reality overwhelming when they hit the pavement.

Anyone that has a minimum basis on Psychology can see this really clearly...

I've taken classes into the 300 level and it seems to me that you are the one who's ego is showing in your statement "I see clearly that many people here don't have this contact with their Highter Selves, and instead, I see their egos speaking."

You, Jan, and many other "spiritual/religious" people share the same problem. You assume that unless someone else exhibits the same beliefs as you they have no knowledge of their "higher-self" or of "God" or whatever you want to call it. This is pure hubris. Without a common plane of reference how can you assume any such thing? How can you refer to your inner-awareness as absolute truth? What makes your inner-awareness more valid than mine?

Lunatics actually think a lot... If "lunatics" wouldn't think, they wouldn't be "lunatics" as this is a "disease" cause by excess of thinking...

So if I think too much I'll go insane? Any evidence for this? … I thought not.
Lunacy (let's say insanity) is the inability to perceive the reality we all share.

~Raithere

Jan,

You pompous pratt.

Hmmmmm!!!! sounds like your losing it Cris.Nah, I just don’t find egotism and conceit as being in the least bit attractive.

Hmmmmm!!!! sounds like your losing it Cris.

Oh Jan, that's absurd. It's quite obvious that Cris is in no danger of running out of 'it'.

And, one person will understand the reference and the rest will say 'huh?' :rolleyes:

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Truly, you totally ignore the fact that animals kills to survive, not to get a trophy like human beings...What does this have anything to do with "love your enemies [whose sole-purpose is to kill you]?"

What does this have anything to do with "love your enemies [whose sole-purpose is to kill you]?"

Can you read your OWN message please...?

My message asked: Does your love can change the fact that your enemies need to kill you to survive?

And what did you reply?

You said: man is killing for pleasure while animal is killing for survival only.

Now, who is trying to avoi