i am new member in this forume .. sorry my english language is not that good but i'll try to clearfy my religion (islam) to you by posting these links ..

http://islamtomorrow.com/
this site is for priest & preacher enter islam

http://www.islamuncovered.com/index.html
this site is for christian educated woman enter islam named Merry Watson and after islam named Khadija Watson .


i realy realy realy hope u understand islam as it is not as your media picture it

i watch opra and see how she hates muslim and thinks that all of us are terrorests and women are forced by men to be coverd ...

noooooooooooo
noooooooooo
nooooooooo

it is alie

the woman her self want to be covered because it is a command from ALLAh, not from men

i am muslim woman and cover my self when i want to get out of my house and i am happy with this and proud of my self

THIS IS THE TRUTH

i have many things and facts i want to show but i dont know where to begin.

I KEEP ASKING MY LADY TO WEAR A BURKA.... but she says no.

she is catholic.. and a free western woman.

what should i do?

im asking you as a muslim woman.

-MT

the woman her self want to be covered because it is a command from ALLAh, not from men

Do you have evidence that your god commands this? Or do you simply take the word of a writer who claimed his words were divine and not hallucination, delusion or lie? Surely we have more evidence of these three human characters more so than we have of "divine inspiration."

Do you have evidence that your god commands this? Or do you simply take the word of a writer who claimed his words were divine and not hallucination, delusion or lie? Surely we have more evidence of these three human characters more so than we have of "divine inspiration."


You are missing the point.

There does not NEED to be any command from God for a decent and good woman to wish to remain modest while in public.

Then we can examine the Social Good which accrues to a Society were women are decent and modest in public. We can ask whether Muslim Society has even a fraction of the domestic abuses and sex crimes that are so common in the West where every girl thinks it her duty to flaunt her sexuality and to be in constant state of Presentation for Mounting. And then they complain they are treated like 'sexual objects'... yeah right.

Leo,

The point doesn't seem to be about a wish to remain modest or not but whether such actions were commanded by a deity or were more believably commanded by men claiming to write on behalf a deity.

Islam appears clearly to be a religion designed by men for the benefit of men. That many Muslim women accept their severely repressed roles indicates the the vast extent of the indioctrination they have absorbed.

How does it benefit the men for the women to conceal their beauty? Are they all monks?

men are not all monks..... but are pigs.

hence the reason for the burka... because the beauty of women is such as to CAUSE men to think of sex...

to sin in their minds and hearts.

to have desire and visual fantasies in ones mind about women you see.

men are pigs, and cannot help but behave this way.


the burka.... allows women to be... a person... and not a sexual object.
since we as men, have no idea what she looks like...
is she hot?
or is she old and butt ugly?

no way to know.
no way or reason to have sinful thoughts.


in the west... we accept sinful thoughts.... as normal.

in the east, mohammed found a way to solve this specific problem.
but the solution in itself causes problems.

i personnaly like the idea of atleast face veils.... but then again, im not a woman... im a piggish man who cant control his own mind.

which is the fundmental foundation to the problem itself.

the burka... is like a bandaid... and it is my belief that it does not serve the long term benefit of the peoples...
because it prevents cultural evolution of the minds of any given country and community into minds which CAN CONTROL THEMSELVES.

and such an evolution should be incouraged.

and our piggish nature needs to be confronted directly, not hidden behind burkas.

-MT
(BUT I STILL want my lady to wear one.)

B.. b.. but.. women are pigs too! If we translate 'pigs' as 'attracted to the opposite sex'.

("But what about Islamic lesbians?" I hear you cry. Simple: there are none.)

Do you have evidence that your god commands this? Or do you simply take the word of a writer who claimed his words were divine and not hallucination, delusion or lie? Surely we have more evidence of these three human characters more so than we have of "divine inspiration."

Islam is a religion that strongly believes in so many other religions, such as Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism. The only problem as believed in Islam that in these religions what supposed to be holy books (words of god) are not any more. People have dared and played with these words to match their desires. I believe that the fact that the words in the Bible for example got manipulated with some people through the history is not doubtable. What even is more weird is that even these days you may find two editions published (one after another) in the same with some different words between them ?!?!?!?!

Quran (holy book of Islam) have never ever been changed not even a single word (western specialists (professors) in both Europe and America agree that this is true and no doubt about it). You may find ancient books (published) more than 1200 years in Spain, Turkey and some other places in the world and they all match with what we have today. God said in on of the verses in Quran that this book will be protected by him and it will never get changed till the end of this life. So far this is correct and obviously it will stay for ever.


Regards

Yazan

Leo,

The point doesn't seem to be about a wish to remain modest or not but whether such actions were commanded by a deity or were more believably commanded by men claiming to write on behalf a deity.."

The main problem in here actually is very simple. People are talking about things they’ve never seen or experienced. Aisha (the prophet’s wife) (which many tend to fabricate stupid stories about her marriage with the prophet) was in a position of power even after the death of the prophet that every one dreamed with such one. People used to come to her seeking for a better understanding of Islam. She was in a position that most of men will die for. Abu Baker (the second man after the prophet) used to ask her permeation regarding some issues and of course this was not because she was the prophet’s wife but because of the knowledge about Islam she gained that made her in such honored position. Aisha is just an example (of course there were/are plenty) so you understand that the commands were not made by a man. My own opinion, it is very simple if we see the social life in both the WEST and EAST.

I believe in equality, and freedom hence i'm athiest and a free thinker.

Leo,

The point doesn't seem to be about a wish to remain modest or not but whether such actions were commanded by a deity or were more believably commanded by men claiming to write on behalf a deity.

Islam appears clearly to be a religion designed by men for the benefit of men. That many Muslim women accept their severely repressed roles indicates the the vast extent of the indioctrination they have absorbed.

So what of women who perceive a benefit of adhering to muslim values?
Actually it is not just a western muslim thing - it is a traditional distinction between eastern and western culture - and comments like this ring of cultural egocentralism

How does it benefit the men for the women to conceal their beauty? Are they all monks?


Perhaps they have different standards of beauty - I remember hearing an argument of sorts between an eastern and a western woman - they were no so much arguing but pointing out each others cultural strengths. The eastern woman said "You western women are powerful. You are bold and independant and have more career options" The western woman replied "No you eastern women are more powerful - you can keep your husbands".

If an eastern woman appears to be making a conscious effort to conceal her beauty before you it is probably because you are not her husband.

:D

Do you have evidence that your god commands this? Or do you simply take the word of a writer who claimed his words were divine and not hallucination, delusion or lie? Surely we have more evidence of these three human characters more so than we have of "divine inspiration."

Saudigirl said: "the woman her self want to be covered because it is a command from ALLAh, not from men"

No, what you feel to realize is that it is a command from men who folowed a strict patriarchial system...not from God.
I believe in God and follow the ancient egyptian spiritual beliefs and if one thing..it's allowed me to apreciate a balanced approach between male and female and realize the absolute nonsense of religous dogma that exists in the 3 abrahamic faiths regarding how women should pray, be humble and submissive,remain covered up in public,etc.
Not matter how people try to sugarcoat this ,it is oppression..plain and simple.
Unless someone can provide conclusive proof that God issued such a idiotic command ( such as a video recording ,etc and yes I realize this technology did not exist then:) ,- then it remains in the realm of man written b/s that reflected the ignorance of the day.

You are missing the point.

There does not NEED to be any command from God for a decent and good woman to wish to remain modest while in public.

Then we can examine the Social Good which accrues to a Society were women are decent and modest in public. We can ask whether Muslim Society has even a fraction of the domestic abuses and sex crimes that are so common in the West where every girl thinks it her duty to flaunt her sexuality and to be in constant state of Presentation for Mounting. And then they complain they are treated like 'sexual objects'... yeah right.

Some Muslim society punish the rape victim, maybe we could expect some unreported sex crimes. But I do agree with your point about western women being sex object and of low moral standards.

nova900

Saudigirl said: "the woman her self want to be covered because it is a command from ALLAh, not from men"

No, what you feel to realize is that it is a command from men who folowed a strict patriarchial system...not from God.
as opposed to a command from a man (such as yourself) who also follows a similar system

- I find it amusing that here is a woman saying she is doing something because it is an instruction from god and suddenly she is swarmed by men telling her to do otherwise because it is actually a command from man she is following - so in other words she is doomed either way, with or without the burka, to follow the commands of men?



Not matter how people try to sugarcoat this ,it is oppression..plain and simple.

How many muslim countries have you been to?


Unless someone can provide conclusive proof that God issued such a idiotic command ( such as a video recording ,etc and yes I realize this technology did not exist then:) ,- then it remains in the realm of man written b/s that reflected the ignorance of the day.

regarding the bold
For a theist, scripture fulfills such a requirement

regarding the italics
and what evidence do we have that your gender values will not meet similar consignments to posterity?

Allah says in the Holy Quran for the woman to lower her gaze and to cover herself, it is then defined who she does not have to cover in front of and is free to dress in a modest way, namely any male relative who she would not be able to marry. She is further told in another chapter to cover herself when going outside of her house. Both of these references can be found in chapters 24:31 called Surah (meaning chapter) An-Nur and in chapter 33:59, Surah Al-Ahzab.

What is interesting is that it is not the Muslim women themselves who are complaining about their covering. Many of our new sisters to Islam in the United States and Europe have stated time and again how protected and modest they feel when going outside and have notice that those men in which they need to interact with, even though they are not Muslims usually treat them with respect and dignity. The Muslim woman's covering also affords her protection from men and by men.

Many Muslim women look upon the modern sexy, tight fitting and short clothing of the non-Muslim woman as being vulgar and sleazy. She finds it hard to understand why a woman would have such low self esteem as to want to appeal to any mans eyes other than her husbands. Or to have many sex partners when virginity and modesty are the highest thing that any woman, Muslim or not, can bestow upon her husband. She can't understand why the men in the family (fathers, husbands or brothers) would allow and even approve of the women in his family whom he should be protecting, to go outside the house, to say nothing of going to school or work with such little clothes to cover their body. And then to be shocked or surprised when the woman or girl is raped!

Human civilisation is catergorized according to the degree women exhibit chastity and satisfaction just like men exhibit self control and a sense of responsibility - in the absence of which unwanted progeny are created, which is the greatest contribution society can make towards its downfall in the immediate future (or alternatively abortion can be widely promulgated, which isn't particularly indicative of advanced culture either .....)

It isn't about sex, although that is a component, it is about power and domination, something that usually outweighs sex.

In the male dominated, authoritarian, possessive, culture that gave birth to Islam, it was inevitable that women would be repressed and treated as property. When enveloped in a violent ruthless religious paradigm, the weak (women) have correspondingly become indoctrinated.

It is not a west vs east issuse, but a matter of individual freedoms. My life values are about freedom for everyone.

You are being lied to. Sexuality is a healthy part of being human. Seeing a pretty girl is no excuse to rape her! It is all the men's fault if this happens. You act like rape is a natural response, and that men have no responsibility for their own actions!

You imply that people in the west mistrust Islam because we don't understand it. What if we do understand it? What if we do understand that being a homosexual means a death sentance in Islamic law? What if we do understand that you can't marry another person who is not a Muslim, even if you are in love, and the penalty is death. Women here can do anything they want. Men designed Islam in a way that appealed to them, and women are considered a lesser authority, why? Women are humans, they can be intelligent, they can drive a car, learn karate, fight in war, they can do anything a man can do, but instead you become virtual slaves to the wishes of men. You brainwash your children to believe that Jews are evil. You forbid them to learn the truth, that all people are animals, evolved from apes, and we came from fish in the ocean. I dislike all religions, but Islam especially so. So called terrorists are not extreme, they just have faith in their religion, a faith in irrationality made possible by so-called moderate indoctrination.

You are probably not a terrorist yourself, but your religion lays the foundation for believing that paradise awaits the suicide bomber. There enough various texts in the Koran to support being a terrorist. Like the Bible, it depends what part you want to pay attention to.

Do you have evidence that your god commands this? Or do you simply take the word of a writer who claimed his words were divine and not hallucination, delusion or lie? Surely we have more evidence of these three human characters more so than we have of "divine inspiration."


Skin
As I recall from reading a long time a go

the Quoran was written in a time when men and women were naked and having orgies in the street.

It was told that women AND men cover their 'jewells', the rules in the Quoran are equally applied to men and women as far as I recall.

The fact that over the yrs this has been taken to an extreme by the women and men further used this 'rule' to oppress women is a statement of men and women and the decisions they make.

You mention superstition skin, are you aware most superstitions stem from real things but those things have been completely lost over time so that all is left is an 'irrational fear' or 'action' that is nonsensical in the modern changed world.

I mention circumsion a lot to demonstrate this point.This practice originated in Egypt as result of snake woprship. NOTHING to do woith Mohammed being born with no foreskin or any other bollocks. Little do all the religions who continue to mutilate baby boys today know they do so because snake worshippers wanted to honour the snake.

Perhaps what is needed in regards to extreme religious practices is a closer
examination of why the dress codes were deemed necc at that point in time
and whether in todays world they are still appropriate. Instead of sticking to them out of misplaced belief.

Note: Humans seem stuck on tradition, in the UK, barristers and judges still wear wigs and bat coats, why?

Allah says in the Holy Quran for the woman to lower her gaze and to cover herself, it is then defined who she does not have to cover in front of and is free to dress in a modest way, namely any male relative who she would not be able to marry. She is further told in another chapter to cover herself when going outside of her house. Both of these references can be found in chapters 24:31 called Surah (meaning chapter) An-Nur and in chapter 33:59, Surah Al-Ahzab.

What is interesting is that it is not the Muslim women themselves who are complaining about their covering. Many of our new sisters to Islam in the United States and Europe have stated time and again how protected and modest they feel when going outside and have notice that those men in which they need to interact with, even though they are not Muslims usually treat them with respect and dignity. The Muslim woman's covering also affords her protection from men and by men.

Many Muslim women look upon the modern sexy, tight fitting and short clothing of the non-Muslim woman as being vulgar and sleazy. She finds it hard to understand why a woman would have such low self esteem as to want to appeal to any mans eyes other than her husbands. Or to have many sex partners when virginity and modesty are the highest thing that any woman, Muslim or not, can bestow upon her husband. She can't understand why the men in the family (fathers, husbands or brothers) would allow and even approve of the women in his family whom he should be protecting, to go outside the house, to say nothing of going to school or work with such little clothes to cover their body. And then to be shocked or surprised when the woman or girl is raped!

I must say your command of the English language, writing skills, grammar and spelling really inproved with your 2nd post. I see you and Mosheh share the same writing style too. Do you like him?

spidergoat

You are being lied to. Sexuality is a healthy part of being human.
even healthier if she has it with her husband

Seeing a pretty girl is no excuse to rape her! It is all the men's fault if this happens. You act like rape is a natural response, and that men have no responsibility for their own actions!

lol - I guess its a conclusion women tend to arrive at, with or without a burka

You imply that people in the west mistrust Islam because we don't understand it. What if we do understand it?

wouldn't have any problems with a burka if you did

Men designed Islam in a way that appealed to them, and women are considered a lesser authority, why?
many such women control their husbands from such an apparently lessened role of authority


Women are humans, they can be intelligent, they can drive a car, learn karate, fight in war, they can do anything a man can do, but instead you become virtual slaves to the wishes of men.
and for women to appear or act sexually loose isn't another form of virtual slavery tot he desires of men?


You brainwash your children to believe that Jews are evil. You forbid them to learn the truth, that all people are animals, evolved from apes, and we came from fish in the ocean.

In other words you have an agenda thatyou think deserves a more credible stance of brainwashing


I dislike all religions, but Islam especially so. So called terrorists are not extreme,
numerous islamic groups have attempted to distance themselves from such non - extremists




You are probably not a terrorist yourself,
... a generous concession on your behalf

but your religion lays the foundation for believing that paradise awaits the suicide bomber.

I think sam has given enough links to indicate that this is not the case


There enough various texts in the Koran to support being a terrorist. Like the Bible, it depends what part you want to pay attention to

so your general principle is that a good should be rejected wholesale if there are traces of it being utilized inappropriately by a few?

I am a swiss cheese with turkey sandwich, I want you all to understand that the peanut butter with jelly sandwich is not the right for consumption..

I am a swiss cheese with turkey sandwich, I want you all to understand that the peanut butter with jelly sandwich is not the right for consumption..

Maybe you should send large military convoys of swiss cheese and turkey sandwiches to the places of peanut and belly jelly sandwiches just to re- establish the proper social paradigm

;)

Allah says in the Holy Quran for the woman to lower her gaze and to cover herself, it is then defined who she does not have to cover in front of and is free to dress in a modest way, namely any male relative who she would not be able to marry. She is further told in another chapter to cover herself when going outside of her house. Both of these references can be found in chapters 24:31 called Surah (meaning chapter) An-Nur and in chapter 33:59, Surah Al-Ahzab.

First of all, I must congratulate you on the staggering improvement of your syntax from your first post, almost as if you were two different people.

What is interesting is that it is not the Muslim women themselves who are complaining about their covering. Many of our new sisters to Islam in the United States and Europe have stated time and again how protected and modest they feel when going outside and have notice that those men in which they need to interact with, even though they are not Muslims usually treat them with respect and dignity. The Muslim woman's covering also affords her protection from men and by men.

Complete nonsense, an extra article of clothing isn't going to provide any more protection than another. On the contrary, it would be far easier to hold on to and pin down a womam wearing all the clothing. It's also ridiculous to claim that women are treated with more dignity and respect, more likely suspicion and fear as they are hiding something.

Many Muslim women look upon the modern sexy, tight fitting and short clothing of the non-Muslim woman as being vulgar and sleazy. She finds it hard to understand why a woman would have such low self esteem as to want to appeal to any mans eyes other than her husbands.

You fail to understand that those women have a higher esteem of themselves than Muslim women, that's why they wear what they want. Hiding yourself completely would mean having low esteem.

Or to have many sex partners when virginity and modesty are the highest thing that any woman, Muslim or not, can bestow upon her husband.

That is the oppression of Muslim men. Women who only offer virginity and modesty as the "highest thing" are not attractive in the least. That merely places them alongside the furniture and pets that Muslim men would own. Attractive women are smart, vibrant, open and are not afraid to express their sexuality. Quite human, really.

She can't understand why the men in the family (fathers, husbands or brothers) would allow and even approve of the women in his family whom he should be protecting, to go outside the house, to say nothing of going to school or work with such little clothes to cover their body. And then to be shocked or surprised when the woman or girl is raped!

You first claimed that it had nothing to do with men or their approval, but everything to do with Allah, now you change your story to what is the reality of the situation, power and control over women. As well, Muslim women get raped, or are you claiming they do not?

I too am starting to think this is a hoax. Clearly, a Saudi girl would not be allowed to converse with strange men on the internet, especially when they are trying to convince her that her faith is irrational. Also, are they allowed to use computers? Why that and no driving? Doesn't make sense.

Anyway,
so your general principle is that a good should be rejected wholesale if there are traces of it being utilized inappropriately by a few?
No, I'm suggesting that the basic idea of a supernatural being in control of the universe promotes irrationality (faith), which contradicts reason, and although there may be some good effects, the overall result is damaging to the well-being of humanity.

I too am starting to think this is a hoax. Clearly, a Saudi girl would not be allowed to converse with strange men on the internet, especially when they are trying to convince her that her faith is irrational. Also, are they allowed to use computers? Why that and no driving? Doesn't make sense.

Anyway,

No, I'm suggesting that the basic idea of a supernatural being in control of the universe promotes irrationality (faith), which contradicts reason, and although there may be some good effects, the overall result is damaging to the well-being of humanity.

I know a saudi girl who not only conversed on internet with stange men, she got pregnant by one and then had abortion in UK at 20 weeks. What makes you believe these girls are as pure as the driven snow?

first of all i copied the second post from the second link i gave to u because as i said i am not so good in english .. again i copied these lines from the same link ..


the Muslim woman is able to work outside of the home, the Muslim woman is not required to pay the bills or support a husband who does not work. The money she earn belongs to her unless she other wise agrees to give up this right. Allah states in the Holy Quran. Surah An-Nisa 4:34, “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women….”

The Muslim woman is not forced into marriage contrary to popular opinion. It is her right to say no if she does not wish to marry a certain man. It is also her right to seek a divorce, in some countries there is a problem about this, it must be noted that it is the country that has the problem not Islam. The woman has had this right in Islam for the last 1427 years, where as the Western and European countries have emancipated women in this area only in the last 150 years!!!.

ــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــ ـــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــ ــ
these are my lines

i am muslim woman have 2 girls and married to very kind and loving husband there is not bad language between us as i see in american movies i even can not say to him u r stuped out of respect not fear and he also can not say any word which may upset me and if he do he will come and say sory .. of course there is not hitting .. in our country we rarely hear about man hit his wife .

i finished collage since 3 years and i am not working , my husband gave me the choice if i want to work or not but i dont want to work i want to be free to rais my daughters the best way .. if we need mony i well work to help my husband but he is an engineerer his sallery around 15,000 per month i live like a princess no body insult me no body can force me to work no body can hit me i can walk alone in a dark street with out fear to be raped because all of us are frightened from God who can see u any where any time not frightened from polis or FBI :confused:

we can sleep while the door of our house is open no fear to be stollen or killed saudi arabia is the most beaceful country around the world ..
but the terrorests (who are considered in saudi arabia as criminals ) made us ugly & evil & killers but we are not we hate terrorests they represent them selves not islam , if u come to saudi arabia u will be shoked by the sciene of people , cities , mosques , hospitals , schools , collages ,culture ..the sciene which is oppeset of how ur media represent it.

first of all i copied the second post from the second link i gave to u because as i said i am not so good in english .. again i copied these lines from the same link ..

Ah, so you plagiarized. Nice.

Allah states in the Holy Quran. Surah An-Nisa 4:34, “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women….”

So, women are chattel.

The Muslim woman is not forced into marriage contrary to popular opinion. It is her right to say no if she does not wish to marry a certain man. It is also her right to seek a divorce, in some countries there is a problem about this...

Yes. it's called Shariah law.

i am muslim woman have 2 girls and married to very kind and loving husband there is not bad language between us as i see in american movies

So, first you accuse us of following the media and now you compare your life to a Hollywood movie?

i even can not say to him u r stuped out of respect not fear and he also can not say any word which may upset me and if he do he will come and say sory .. of course there is not hitting .. in our country we rarely hear about man hit his wife .

And you feel the need to call each other stupid because... ? You rarely hear about wife beating? Gee, that's a surprise.

I know a saudi girl who not only conversed on internet with stange men, she got pregnant by one and then had abortion in UK at 20 weeks. What makes you believe these girls are as pure as the driven snow?
Oh, yes. One of my colleagues is a nice muslim lady who doesn't wear a burkha. She is so clear that it is better to have values than a burkha... and that she knows many burkha-clad girls who go around with men and use the burkha as a 'veil'; and with mini skirts inside!

I too am starting to think this is a hoax. Clearly, a Saudi girl would not be allowed to converse with strange men on the internet, especially when they are trying to convince her that her faith is irrational. Also, are they allowed to use computers? Why that and no driving? Doesn't make sense.
.

loooool u think we r living in a desert ofcourse we can use computer and enternet .. see!!! this is what make me come and write about muslims and saudis because of the wrong picture u have about us .
wake up coputer is studied here from elementary school untill collage ..my little brother knows how to use internet:rolleyes:

every saudi girl has her own computer ,mobile and other aspects of technology

no body can convince me that my faith is wrong.

Allah says in the Holy Quran for the woman to lower her gaze and to cover herself, it is then defined who she does not have to cover in front of and is free to dress in a modest way, namely any male relative who she would not be able to marry. She is further told in another chapter to cover herself when going outside of her house. Both of these references can be found in chapters 24:31 called Surah (meaning chapter) An-Nur and in chapter 33:59, Surah Al-Ahzab.

What is interesting is that it is not the Muslim women themselves who are complaining about their covering. Many of our new sisters to Islam in the United States and Europe have stated time and again how protected and modest they feel when going outside and have notice that those men in which they need to interact with, even though they are not Muslims usually treat them with respect and dignity. The Muslim woman's covering also affords her protection from men and by men.

Many Muslim women look upon the modern sexy, tight fitting and short clothing of the non-Muslim woman as being vulgar and sleazy. She finds it hard to understand why a woman would have such low self esteem as to want to appeal to any mans eyes other than her husbands. Or to have many sex partners when virginity and modesty are the highest thing that any woman, Muslim or not, can bestow upon her husband. She can't understand why the men in the family (fathers, husbands or brothers) would allow and even approve of the women in his family whom he should be protecting, to go outside the house, to say nothing of going to school or work with such little clothes to cover their body. And then to be shocked or surprised when the woman or girl is raped!

OF THIS I AGREE..... COMPLETELY.

and it is because men are pigs.


but the burka... only allows men to aviod the issue of their own pigness.

and avioding the issue, makes it a non-issue... and men culturally are allowed to be pigs.

and no effort is made towards training in this area....

instead... women cover up.



while it is effective, it is anything but natural.


and what you dont understand about western womans desire to not be veiled or hidden under burkas....

is...
its not comfortable.
and they are not so much concerned with how they look to men, since all men are pigs and like women regardless....

their main concern is about what other women think.
they are all in competition to look their best, hence the make up and clothes and fashion.... all to make them look spectacular....

a beauty contest cannot take place under burkas.

-MT

:(
So, first you accuse us of following the media and now you compare your life to a Hollywood movie?

And you feel the need to call each other stupid because... ? You rarely hear about wife beating? Gee, that's a surprise.

very weak words .. Hollywood movies represent ur actual life i want to show u the defferent in family life between u and us .. i surprised how the teenagers treat their parents badly as parents work for them no respect no estimation.


u want to make ur self funy and critic any thing only for criticism in ridiculous way .. yeh it is surprise for u because u used to hear about wife beating in ur society.. the surprise is ur confedence in talking about a society u dont know at all.

loooool u think we r living in a desert ofcourse we can use computer and enternet .. see!!! this is what make me come and write about muslims and saudis because of the wrong picture u have about us .
wake up coputer is studied here from elementary school untill collage ..my little brother knows how to use internet:rolleyes:

every saudi girl has her own computer ,mobile and other aspects of technology

no body can convince me that my faith is wrong.

So why can you use a computer and not drive a car or vote?

Of course you are certain in your faith, that is why it is called faith. A reasonable person can change their mind about something.

What do you mean by clarifying your religion? Isn't it clear? I think it means you want to spread favorable propaganda about your religion. Don't you think that someone indoctrinated from birth, in a country where almost everyone is the same religion will think that this religion is the best? You cannot be anything other than what you are, and that is becuase powerful men want it that way. I find that frightening.

men are not all monks..... but are pigs.
what are YOU ...a fucking LESBIAN???:eek:

actualy in a way youre somewhat right,Ive heard that humans share 50% of dna with pigs

the burka.... allows women to be... a person... and not a sexual object.
since we as men, have no idea what she looks like...
is she hot?
or is she old and butt ugly?
you said it
covered with burka allows them to marry even the ugliest broad to some unsuspecting dude :D

because it prevents cultural evolution of the minds of any given country and community into minds which CAN CONTROL THEMSELVES.

and such an evolution should be incouraged.


exactly right,women go topless or naked on the beaches in Europe,all the time and no one rapes anyone,maybe they are just a bit more EVOLVED than our midle eastern friends,?

first of all i copied the second post from the second link i gave to u because as i said i am not so good in english .. again i copied these lines from the same link ..


the Muslim woman is able to work outside of the home, the Muslim woman is not required to pay the bills or support a husband who does not work. The money she earn belongs to her unless she other wise agrees to give up this right. Allah states in the Holy Quran. Surah An-Nisa 4:34, “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women….”

The Muslim woman is not forced into marriage contrary to popular opinion. It is her right to say no if she does not wish to marry a certain man. It is also her right to seek a divorce, in some countries there is a problem about this, it must be noted that it is the country that has the problem not Islam. The woman has had this right in Islam for the last 1427 years, where as the Western and European countries have emancipated women in this area only in the last 150 years!!!.

ــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــ ـــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــ ــ
these are my lines

i am muslim woman have 2 girls and married to very kind and loving husband there is not bad language between us as i see in american movies i even can not say to him u r stuped out of respect not fear and he also can not say any word which may upset me and if he do he will come and say sory .. of course there is not hitting .. in our country we rarely hear about man hit his wife .

i finished collage since 3 years and i am not working , my husband gave me the choice if i want to work or not but i dont want to work i want to be free to rais my daughters the best way .. if we need mony i well work to help my husband but he is an engineerer his sallery around 15,000 per month i live like a princess no body insult me no body can force me to work no body can hit me i can walk alone in a dark street with out fear to be raped because all of us are frightened from God who can see u any where any time not frightened from polis or FBI :confused:

we can sleep while the door of our house is open no fear to be stollen or killed saudi arabia is the most beaceful country around the world ..
but the terrorests (who are considered in saudi arabia as criminals ) made us ugly & evil & killers but we are not we hate terrorests they represent them selves not islam , if u come to saudi arabia u will be shoked by the sciene of people , cities , mosques , hospitals , schools , collages ,culture ..the sciene which is oppeset of how ur media represent it.
UNFORTUNATELY theres also Saudi secret police that can arrest detain and TORTURE anyone into confessing any crime even if youre innocent like recently happened to one person (Canadian worker)who was held and tortured for two fng years there,
I bet youve never heard about that??

a beauty contest cannot take place under burkas.

-MT

The burkas will come off in time. People are people, burka or no burka. Bring your women to America, let them see how ridiculous religious clothing rules are. Sooner or later, I can see it now, A Penthouse spectacular edition of "What's Under the Burka?: Muslim College Girls Pictorial" Millions for Bob Guccione and a bunch of Muslim girls get shot or threatened with death by their own people. It is only a matter of time. Price of individual freedom or the power of money? The old will die and the young will change things to their suiting.

You can say what you want but eventually some girls will revolt and the burkas in North America are out the door. You can run all the 'good' Muslim girls in here that you want but it won't change a thing. The big question is: Are the males of the Islamic religion ready for the cultural flap that will occur? No sense fighting it, you'll only look like an old fashioned fart. You can shoot them or punish them any way you want but it won't stop the wave once it starts.

The American culture will catch up to your archaic rules and your women are going to change. By the time you're an old goat you will be mumbling about the brash females and will go to your grave lamenting the pitiful state of religion.

You can't stop it, you can try using force but even that will not be enough. The burkas will start disappearing some day if they aren't already.

So why can you use a computer and not drive a car or vote?

Of course you are certain in your faith, that is why it is called faith. A reasonable person can change their mind about something.

What do you mean by clarifying your religion? Isn't it clear? I think it means you want to spread favorable propaganda about your religion. Don't you think that someone indoctrinated from birth, in a country where almost everyone is the same religion will think that this religion is the best? You cannot be anything other than what you are, and that is becuase powerful men want it that way. I find that frightening.


we dont need to drive cars we have husbands who are resbonseble to take care of us or if the husband is busy he bring adriver with 700 as asalery per month just to keep woman confortable .. in saudi arabia ther is not voting for men or women .

my religion is totally clear but i want to clarify it to u who dont know any thing about islam

i know that every body carry the same relegion of his parents but this does not mean that this relegion is correct so u have to think again about u relegion because thers is another life after death there is hell and heaven which make us think again and again about our relegion not to be what ever u r when u born.

Why is your religion correct, and others are not?
They believe it as firmly as you.

If God talked to Jews first, why are you not a Jew?

Many Muslim women look upon the modern sexy, tight fitting and short clothing of the non-Muslim woman as being vulgar and sleazy. She finds it hard to understand why a woman would have such low self esteem as to want to appeal to any mans eyes other than her husbands. Or to have many sex partners when virginity and modesty are the highest thing that any woman, Muslim or not, can bestow upon her husband. She can't understand why the men in the family (fathers, husbands or brothers) would allow and even approve of the women in his family whom he should be protecting, to go outside the house, to say nothing of going to school or work with such little clothes to cover their body. And then to be shocked or surprised when the woman or girl is raped!
what a load of garbage.
it's crap like what you spew saudigirl that gives islam a bad name.
i expect to run into islam in some of the most backwards countrys on the planet.

i especially like the last sentence of your quote.

you said it
covered with burka allows them to marry even the ugliest broad to some unsuspecting dude :D

before the man getting married he can see the woman he want and talk to her if they attracted to each other they get married


exactly right,women go topless or naked on the beaches in Europe,all the time and no one rapes anyone,maybe they are just a bit more EVOLVED than our midle eastern friends,?

the repetetion of sexy pictures ,sexy bodies,sexy videos,sexy clothes make it very diffecult for men to hold theme selves this explainse why prostitution,fornication,husbands betray their wives with other woman and sexual ills are very spread in ur society .. ur men r not more EVOLVED than our men but ur men have many apporteneties to sleep with any woman he want without even knowing her name and some of them are married men what a shame because they dont have morality's deterrent .

IM PRETY SURE......

saudi girl... isnt a girl... and also isnt one person.

and i say this, because she... or they... have ignored me.

i too read the Koran, and i am a muulah of sorts.

and i have many fundamental questions to put forth in challenge to the basis of your interpretive belief system based on the Koran.

my first question to you... is.. "Does Mohammed contradict himself in the Koran????????"

is it possible for him to contradict himself??

-MT

Ok, alot of questions, but here's one more:

If Islam isn't a violent religion, then why is blasphemy considered a criminal offense, punishable by death?

If you will kill your own people for disbelief, why not other people?

Ok, alot of questions, but here's one more:

If Islam isn't a violent religion, then why is blasphemy considered a criminal offense, punishable by death?

If you will kill your own people for disbelief, why not other people?

because what is considered violence is relative. I may eat an apple with a worm inside and for buddhism I have commited an act of killing...

But no Buddhist would kill you for it.

Why is your religion correct, and others are not?
They believe it as firmly as you.

If God talked to Jews first, why are you not a Jew?

because islam is the last religion and prophet mohamad is the last prophet from God and Quran is the last book from God which did not change since over 1400 years..try to enter islamic sites so u find out if this religion is true or not try to read about islam with opened heart i dont say u have to be a muslim but at least try to think again of a religion comes from God ..please open ur eyes open ur heart try to finde the right religion not to be like ur father or mother it is something very important to think about there is an other life after death there is hell and heaven which one u would like u have to work hard to gain heaven it is not that easy to enter it costs u alot of work ur soul deserves to be rescued please rescue ur self i will not gain any thing by writing these lines i just want to wake u up .. u can read about all relegions on earth and deside which one is the right one but dont say i will be just like my parents .. u have ur own mind and can find ur releafe but dont forget that there is a jugment day and u will face God what u will say to him?? i followed my parents !!!u need a stronger excuse.

IM PRETY SURE......

saudi girl... isnt a girl... and also isnt one person.

and i say this, because she... or they... have ignored me.

i too read the Koran, and i am a muulah of sorts.

and i have many fundamental questions to put forth in challenge to the basis of your interpretive belief system based on the Koran.

my first question to you... is.. "Does Mohammed contradict himself in the Koran????????"

is it possible for him to contradict himself??

-MT


IM PRETY SURE......!!!!!!! u r free to belive that iam girl or not ..
but i ignored alot of posts because when i entered my subject i find around 20 posts and did not understand most of the lines and i dont know who to anser my mother language is arabic not english and i take long time to anser each question.


Does Mohammed contradict himself in the Koran????????"
no of course not .. if u want to ask about islam i can give u links for muslim (shekh) who like (priest)in chrestenity who spend their life in studing Quran and islamic doctrine.

my Qs:
what is ur religion?? what do u mean by muulah??

I do read alot about religion. It is my knowledge, rather than lack of it, that makes me decide that there is no God, and no heaven or hell (except in a metaphorical sense). You came on here to clarify any questions or misunderstandings we might have about Islam. Instead of doing so, you implore us to defer our questions to other sources, presumably with more authority. Maybe you should do the same. In fact submission to authority is the whole point of religion. It is a means of social control, and you are very tightly controlled, even your appearance is not under your control, and you like it that way. I suppose it is easy, not having to think for yourself.

But let me address your comment.

You said two things. One is that the last book from God is the most accurate.

Then you say that the fact it didn't change in 1400 years makes it reliable.

Which is it?


The Bible is older than 1400 years, and the Book of Mormon is less than 200. Which is more reliable?

Ok, alot of questions, but here's one more:

If Islam isn't a violent religion, then why is blasphemy considered a criminal offense, punishable by death?

If you will kill your own people for disbelief, why not other people?


i dont understand ur question what do u mean by blasphemy,offense??
my translator could not translate them.

u r free to belive that iam girl or not ..
??

Can we see some Pictorial evidence?

i dont understand ur question what do u mean by blasphemy,offense??
my translator could not translate them.

Denial or questioning wether Islam is true, converting to another religion, converting a Muslim to another religion...

the first half of the Koran.... speaks of peace and love... amoungst all religions and those who believe in and worship God.... Allah.

the one God... the same God of Abraham.. the God of Jesus.

in this way, the first half... brings all religion together in love.


but the second half does not... and the infidel is described.

i put it to you... that they have more often than not... allowed the text of the second half to stand alone... alone and without moderation from the first half.

in this way... they can preach that all who are not muslim must convert or die... by basing their views solely on the second half.

but to do so, is to propose that the words of the second have... superceed, and replace the words of the first half.. and if so.
then they preach based on doctrine which fundamentally allowed for interpretations where Mohammed is allowed to contradict himself.


you said... he does not.

which is it.?

be very careful.... be very wise... the definition of evil infidels are well defined... and jews and christians are not in that group....

mis- interpretation allows many muslim leaders to lead many astray...

just as has happened to christians all over the world... for the last 2000 years.

-MT

Hey, it's all good, right? It's all the word of God.

UNFORTUNATELY theres also Saudi secret police that can arrest detain and TORTURE anyone into confessing any crime even if youre innocent like recently happened to one person (Canadian worker)who was held and tortured for two fng years there,
I bet youve never heard about that??


no i'v never heard about that but before juging our police throgh one accedent u should look how the muslims are treated in guantnamu or abu ghrabe in iraq i pretty sure u'v seen the pictures of naked prisoners and how the army insult them by closing their eyes and dress them women under wear or hang them naked on a tank and frighten them with crazy dogs or how the girls are raped by the american army like animals .. please dont talk about injustice and torture look at palestain,lebanon,iraq every day hundreds of children and women are killed by ur army

i am new member in this forume .. sorry my english language is not that good but i'll try to clearfy my religion (islam) to you by posting these links ..

http://islamtomorrow.com/
this site is for priest & preacher enter islam

http://www.islamuncovered.com/index.html
this site is for christian educated woman enter islam named Merry Watson and after islam named Khadija Watson .


i realy realy realy hope u understand islam as it is not as your media picture it

i watch opra and see how she hates muslim and thinks that all of us are terrorests and women are forced by men to be coverd ...

noooooooooooo
noooooooooo
nooooooooo

it is alie

the woman her self want to be covered because it is a command from ALLAh, not from men

i am muslim woman and cover my self when i want to get out of my house and i am happy with this and proud of my self

THIS IS THE TRUTH

i have many things and facts i want to show but i dont know where to begin.

Salaam'

I'm a Muslim. Are you married?

I am looking for religious Muslim wife. I am from england, and have a red passport!

I want to become more spiritualistic and learn about Islam.

I'm a Muslim. Are you married?

Oh yeah! :p Its love allright. Get her buddy!

Denial or questioning wether Islam is true, converting to another religion, converting a Muslim to another religion...


u mean that islam is forcing people to be muslim and kill them if they refuse??
no islam gives u the right to be amuslim or not it is written in Quran dont fight non muslims unless they fight u and treat them in good way ..

no i'v never heard about that but before juging our police throgh one accedent u should look how the muslims are treated in guantnamu or abu ghrabe in iraq i pretty sure u'v seen the pictures of naked prisoners and how the army insult them by closing their eyes and dress them women under wear or hang them naked on a tank and frighten them with crazy dogs or how the girls are raped by the american army like animals .. please dont talk about injustice and torture look at palestain,lebanon,iraq every day hundreds of children and women are killed by ur army

Oh, no, I'm free to condemn both. There are numerous incidents of brutal sentences for what we are free to do in the west, to think for ourselves, to love whom we wish, to vote for the best candidate of any religion or creed...

I do read alot about religion. It is my knowledge, rather than lack of it, that makes me decide that there is no God, and no heaven or hell (except in a metaphorical sense). You came on here to clarify any questions or misunderstandings we might have about Islam. Instead of doing so, you implore us to defer our questions to other sources, presumably with more authority. Maybe you should do the same. In fact submission to authority is the whole point of religion. It is a means of social control, and you are very tightly controlled, even your appearance is not under your control, and you like it that way. I suppose it is easy, not having to think for yourself.

But let me address your comment.

You said two things. One is that the last book from God is the most accurate.

Then you say that the fact it didn't change in 1400 years makes it reliable.

Which is it?


The Bible is older than 1400 years, and the Book of Mormon is less than 200. Which is more reliable?

First I did not understand these words:
Metaphorical
presumably

what do u mean by other sources?


Iam sure that u did not read about islam from the right sources because ur society represent islam badly try to enter the first link I posted at first u will find the answer of ur questions .. yes my life is under the control of the one who created me ..u believe that there is no another life after death?? Why u borne and live?? Only to eat sleep and having sex!!!

Life is the examination and in the judgment u will receive ur paper and know if u pass the exam or not .. ur belief makes u like animals(sorry) no mind no thinking not deliberate the world around u ..


Yes the bible is older than Quran but people distort it and change it for their interests that’s why God send mohamad to correct the religion and send Quran to him and did not change .

Translation:



I'm a Muslim. Are you married?.

I'm a muslim. Are you available for a fuck?

I am looking for religious Muslim wife.
I am willing to say anything to get into your panties


I am from england, and have a red passport

I am from England and have bought a passport from a guy from the pub for 20quid and I can get you one too;)
I want to become more spiritualistic and learn about Islam.

I want to pretend to leave the bacardi breezers behind so I can get into your panties.

:D

yes my life is under the control of the one who created me .

Life is the examination and in the judgment u will receive ur paper and know if u pass the exam or not

Then, if you do not pass the examination, Allah is to blame since he controls you.

Translation:



I'm a muslim. Are you available for a fuck?

I am willing to say anything to get into your panties




I am from England and have bought a passport from a guy from the pub for 20quid and I can get you one too


I want to pretend to leave the bacardi breezers behind so I can get into your panties.



:eek: :eek: :eek:

Sorry it was a gift just waiting to be lampooned.
Sorry.

Muslim:

Why don't you stop invading our nations? Stop trying to get more foreigners to come in when you yourself are barely here and identify yourself more as a "Paki" and a "Moslem" than a subject of the United Kingdom? Why don't you go back from whence you came instead of mooch off our nations and corrupt our cultures?

If you want a Moslem wife, why don't you go back to Pakistan? If you want to be amongst your people, why don't you go back to them?

Do you even consider yourself British? Do you practice any British customs? Do you value British historical and cultural figures?

I believe in equality, and freedom hence i'm athiest and a free thinker.
Yet you still obey and support governments that punish people for trying to teach a lesson on how to interact peaceful in society, not treating police like gods, using drugs, polygamy, and prostetution. A government that doesn't show the same respect to it's citizens that it expects from them.
but a matter of individual freedoms. My life values are about freedom for everyone.
What about freedom for people who's only real skill is theft, a way of life that has been around since before the human race? Is it right to surpress these people? For them to immediately become enemies of a power too strong for them to ever compete with, simply by attempting a different outlook on survival and success is ok? But women being respectful to theirselves isn't?
very weak words .. Hollywood movies represent ur actual life i want to show u the defferent in family life between u and us .. i surprised how the teenagers treat their parents badly as parents work for them no respect no estimation.

First, Hollywood movies aren't even remotely close to anyone's family life that I know. Most disresoect towards parents(in real life, not the movies), stems from the parents having been neglectful or abusive earlier in the teen's life. There is however an extreme lack of respect for anyone from anyone in America. This is because our laws restrict the elders from properly disciplining their younger counterparts, and it gets worse all the time with new laws. The only people who aren't completely void of discipline and respect are the ones who have lives that were worth living, and who have been disciplined by their experiences. But the people in the movies are stupid pussies.
UNFORTUNATELY theres also Saudi secret police that can arrest detain and TORTURE anyone into confessing any crime even if youre innocent like recently happened to one person (Canadian worker)who was held and tortured for two fng years there,
I bet youve never heard about that??
I've heard of America doing the same things, just because they deport innocent detainees first doesn't make it anymore right.

..u believe that there is no another life after death?? Why u borne and live?? Only to eat sleep and having sex!!!

That is correct. I was born like any creature was born. Why is an elephant or a squirrel born? Same reason. I happen to participate in a life which includes more than just sleeping, as do you.

Wanting there to be a grand purpose to life and a devine plan doesn't make it so.


Perhaps the Book of Mormon corrects the Koran. It arrived later.

Perhaps the Urantia Book corrects both, it came later.

Perhaps the book I write tomorrow corrects all of it.

u mean that islam is forcing people to be muslim and kill them if they refuse??
no islam gives u the right to be amuslim or not it is written in Quran dont fight non muslims unless they fight u and treat them in good way ..

Not exactly, if you are a Muslim, and you renounce it, that is called apostasy.

Do you know the punishment for this in Saudi Arabia?

Quran (holy book of Islam) have never ever been changed not even a single word [...] God said in on of the verses in Quran that this book will be protected by him and it will never get changed till the end of this life.

What is the evidence that a god said this? The answer, of course, is the text itself. The text is true because it says it is. What poppycock. You quoted my initial question to saudi girl asking what evidence she has of her god's command but didn't seem to answer it.

Skin
As I recall from reading a long time a go

the Quoran was written in a time when men and women were naked and having orgies in the street.

It was told that women AND men cover their 'jewells', the rules in the Quoran are equally applied to men and women as far as I recall.

Surely you're not saying you were there :) There's no evidence that I've seen to suggest that people were naked until the Koran told them to put on clothes. That's about as preposterous as saying the same about the older biblical mythologies of the Pentateuch. There is physical evidence that clothing has been all the rage long before writing was even invented. The more likely, and plausible, explanation for the covering is environmental. The desert of Arabia is harsh (been there LG) and having oneself covered is simply good water conservation and protects the delicacy of the skin.

You mention superstition skin, are you aware most superstitions stem from real things but those things have been completely lost over time so that all is left is an 'irrational fear' or 'action' that is nonsensical in the modern changed world.

I'd argue that most superstitions probably stem from magical thinking: this works for my luck until it doesn't. Still, I recognize that many superstitions result from antiquated ideas whose contexts are no longer valid.

Little do all the religions who continue to mutilate baby boys today know they do so because snake worshippers wanted to honour the snake [...] [h]umans seem stuck on tradition, in the UK, barristers and judges still wear wigs and bat coats, why?

I can agree with that. I find both practices antiquated and illogical.

Islam about Women
"And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them." (Surah 2:228)

"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property" (4:34)

"As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way" (4:15)

"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you." (4:24)

Women must cover themselves in public. (33:59)

Clearly Islam is a misogynistic religion. Muslim women can say they chose their life all they want, but this is the nature of cult indoctrination: it convinces you that your equalities and opportunities are secondary to the demands of the cult hierarchy. I'm sure the followers of Heaven's Gate chose to depart this life as surely as the followers of Jim Jones did in Guyana. But however sweet the Kool Aid is mixed, and however accepting the believers are of the additives, the result is the same: drinking it is wrong.

There are Muslim women who believe that various degrees of female genitial mutilation are accepted religious practices (clitorectemy). No where in the Koran is this supported, of course, but do we accept their oppression as valid simply because they are raised to believe it is right and correct? Should we not speak out against such oppression and pressure their religious cult to abandon it?

If women want to wear burkas, that's their problem. The rest of free-thinking society need not accept this and if that means believers get a bit of ridicule, the believers earned it.

I was in a buffet line recently and a Muslim woman and her husband were ahead of me. Her burka hid all but her eyes and even the loose fit of the garment failed to hide the fact that gravity had a greater affect on her than me. Someone in line behind me remarked that the burka might be doing us all a favor by hiding her features; another joked that she probably had two kids under there with her and this was a convenient way to sneak them in the buffet line. I had already told my wife, "look, a ninja."

In Dallas, Texas, a burka worn on a day other than Halloween is going to get comments. And rightly so. It should be no more different than if someone were dressed like an Elvis impersonator, Batman, or in a Jedi Knight costume. Its a kooky and antiquated costume, similar to the get-up ToR mentioned by English barristers.

i want to say that this is my last post because there are people who want to insult me and my religion .. every one represent himself with his words i can not accept to be a member of forume which accept derty words and immoral speech ..

i want to say that i know that there is alot of defamation of islam and i hope u read about islam from accurate books.. u can take a look in this book it has all the answers of ur questions

http://www.islam-guide.com/

and on this site u can see alot of questions with answers about islam or u can send ur questions to be answered.
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=1930&ln=eng

at last i hope i didnot annoy or bother any one of u .. salam

the repetetion of sexy pictures ,sexy bodies,sexy videos,sexy clothes make it very diffecult for men to hold theme selves this explainse why prostitution,fornication,husbands betray their wives with other woman and sexual ills are very spread in ur society ..
ah, i see what you mean, muslim men have no will power.
as soon as they see a woman dressed in anything other than a burka they get a hard-on and must rape it.
ur men r not more EVOLVED than our men but ur men have many apporteneties to sleep with any woman he want without even knowing her name and some of them are married men what a shame because they dont have morality's deterrent .
that's right. our men can go to the beach where women are dressed in nothing more than shoestrings and they controll themselves.

face it saudi girl you live in fear of being murdered if you live the life of a non muslim.

Suckers. Unbelievable!:D

Suckers. Amazing!:D
Just waiting for it.

What a load of crap.

What a load of crap.

Ah! That explains the congregation of flies.:p

Ah! That explains the congregation of flies.:p
Clearly.

Clearly.

Never seen all of them collect so fast before.

...we have husbands who are resbonseble to take care of us or if the husband is busy he bring adriver with 700 as asalery per month just to keep woman confortable ..


:rolleyes: ;)

Leo,

The point doesn't seem to be about a wish to remain modest or not but whether such actions were commanded by a deity or were more believably commanded by men claiming to write on behalf a deity.

Islam appears clearly to be a religion designed by men for the benefit of men. That many Muslim women accept their severely repressed roles indicates the the vast extent of the indioctrination they have absorbed.

So it is your contention that if one could tomorrow discredit the Quaron, then all of these Saudi Women who are now "proud" of their modesty would instantly rip off their burkas and be just as slutty as Western Women.

No, I doubt it.

What all you shallow atheists are not grasping is the Cultural Foundations for Mohamed's Revelations. What you need to understand is that Allah probably told these Modest and Honorable Women exactly what they wanted to hear, to give them warrant to protect themselves from predatory and lascivious nature of men, and to keep husbands less tempted to leave their own homes.

Some Muslim society punish the rape victim, maybe we could expect some unreported sex crimes. But I do agree with your point about western women being sex object and of low moral standards.

Yes, of course. Was she abiding by all of the customs and protocols that women are supposed to follow so that they AREN'T raped? No! Then it WAS her fault, wasn't it.

Just like in the West, women shave their legs in preparation for sex, they go out dancing in preparation for sex, they get drunk in preparation for sex, they go home with a man in preparation for sex, and so she has sex just like every weekend, just like she is always bragging about at the Office, but the man says something wrong at the wrong moment and then SUDDENLY IT HAS BECOME RAPE. And the West is stupid enough to prosecute the Man.

No.

Women should need to back up a couple a hundred years in the West. Go out with men only after proper introductions. No drinking. No smoking. No doors closed unless there is a proposal of marriage going on.

But as it is now Western Woman are the most unmitigated sluts, and they should instantly suspend all these silly rape laws as ridiculously obsolete.

When every woman over 12 years old can't think of anything else but getting screwed every weekend of their life, it certainly is NO CRIME to oblige them.

Or perhaps we could impose a fine. The Men should at least give these western whores $20 for their time.

i am saudi&muslim girl i want to clearfy my relegion

Why? why why why.:bugeye:

jeez, nice plug.

I have mixed feelings about your post leo. While I agrees that girls do cry rape WAY too often and often falsely, I don't see what marriage or paying tham have to do with it. Or even punishing them for having sex. A better way to fix this scenario would be for the woman to get the same punishment the alleged offender would get if they found out by some chance that she had fabricated the story. This would stop a lot of the lies.

I have mixed feelings about your post leo. While I agrees that girls do cry rape WAY too often and often falsely, I don't see what marriage or paying tham have to do with it. Or even punishing them for having sex. A better way to fix this scenario would be for the woman to get the same punishment the alleged offender would get if they found out by some chance that she had fabricated the story. This would stop a lot of the lies.

No, no, no.

Rape Laws were written when sex was not the Number One Individual Sport in the Western World ('scoring'). Sex is NOW the most common Recreation, and not simply among male jerkoffs.

Anything that EVERY WOMAN does, or wants to do, every Saturday Night should no longer be seen in terms of DAMAGES.

They should be treated simply like men. If they can claim they have been assaulted then they can pursue assault charges, and damages can be determined just like it is for men, from the number of cuts, bruises and broken bones.

But if Sex had not done them any harm that last few thousand times they have had sex, then it didn't hurt them much just because some guy forgot to by them dinner first.

So you're saying no rape laws, just assault laws? I don't know...

Allah says in the Holy Quran for the woman to lower her gaze and to cover herself, it is then defined who she does not have to cover in front of and is free to dress in a modest way, namely any male relative who she would not be able to marry. She is further told in another chapter to cover herself when going outside of her house. Both of these references can be found in chapters 24:31 called Surah (meaning chapter) An-Nur and in chapter 33:59, Surah Al-Ahzab.

I have a question though, why should a women be condemned to cover what she usually (biologically speaking) likes to reveil, because some sick bastard is getting funny ideas?

What is interesting is that it is not the Muslim women themselves who are complaining about their covering. Many of our new sisters to Islam in the United States and Europe have stated time and again how protected and modest they feel when going outside and have notice that those men in which they need to interact with, even though they are not Muslims usually treat them with respect and dignity. The Muslim woman's covering also affords her protection from men and by men.

You make it sound like all the girls of the islamic world are veiled! Correction most aren't and they really think thrice before taking a decision on their own. About those american and europian ladies, the change they made in life gave them a feeling of new meaning, if they converted to any other religion they would've got the same feeling, many people expressed the same atittude when they became budhists or sikh or other...

Many Muslim women look upon the modern sexy, tight fitting and short clothing of the non-Muslim woman as being vulgar and sleazy. She finds it hard to understand why a woman would have such low self esteem as to want to appeal to any mans eyes other than her husbands. Or to have many sex partners when virginity and modesty are the highest thing that any woman, Muslim or not, can bestow upon her husband. She can't understand why the men in the family (fathers, husbands or brothers) would allow and even approve of the women in his family whom he should be protecting, to go outside the house, to say nothing of going to school or work with such little clothes to cover their body.

Girl your getting the wrong message, exposing one body is really because we as humans try to seem perfect, consequently we try to prove we are more educated by inlisting in different majors, more wise reading on many subjects, more intelligent, stronger by reveiling big muscles in sports, richer by buying the latest sports car, healthier by keeping attention to our well being, and more appealing to the other sex..... For your information alot of the guys I know find veiled women more attractive and their not only muslim, its known as veil fetishism, they even keep photos of such women for pleasure!!

And then to be shocked or surprised when the woman or girl is raped!

Girl rape is sometimes irrelevant to sexual desire alot of the cases I know where due to humiliate the other family or tribe, or for some family issue like the latest rape case in your own country take a peak at this story:
http://www.alarabiya.net/Articles/2006/10/13/28230.htm

And more intresting what the UN has to say:
http://www.alarabiya.net/Articles/2004/10/29/7531.htm

Sorry people but these sites are in Arabic but I wanted Saudi girl to open her eyes, with all due respect

For your information alot of the guys I know find veiled women more attractive and their not only muslim, its known as veil fetishism, they even keep photos of such women for pleasure!!



And you beleive that!?

Hiding every trace of sexuality is now supposed to be the ultimate in sluttiness!

Fine! So what's keeping every Western Woman from now diving down to this newly discovered depth of depravity? Are they waiting for Madonna to do it first?

For your information alot of the guys I know find veiled women more attractive and their not only muslim, its known as veil fetishism, they even keep photos of such women for pleasure!!


Like this kind of veil or the ninja kind? http://img.costumecraze.com/images/vendors/forum/56622-main.jpg

Do they ever shag with those ninja outfits on? Hmmmmm.:bugeye:

The Muslim woman is not forced into marriage contrary to popular opinion. It is her right to say no if she does not wish to marry a certain man. It is also her right to seek a divorce, in some countries there is a problem about this, it must be noted that it is the country that has the problem not Islam. The woman has had this right in Islam for the last 1427 years, where as the Western and European countries have emancipated women in this area only in the last 150 years!!!.

Sorry girl, my cousin happens to be a Suadi girl like your distinguished self, but for your information shes was forbidden to marry another saudi she likes just because he is "hadari" I think you know what I mean, and please do we muslims don't remember the laws we have until we find the west applying them, look at this:
http://www.ksayes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1590

This was on alarabiya before, but for some reason it doesn't anymore:confused:

i am muslim woman have 2 girls and married to very kind and loving husband there is not bad language between us as i see in american movies i even can not say to him u r stuped out of respect not fear and he also can not say any word which may upset me and if he do he will come and say sory .. of course there is not hitting .. in our country we rarely hear about man hit his wife .

This is personel experience, not a general fact!

i finished collage since 3 years and i am not working , my husband gave me the choice if i want to work or not but i dont want to work i want to be free to rais my daughters the best way .. if we need mony i well work to help my husband but he is an engineerer his sallery around 15,000 per month i live like a princess no body insult me no body can force me to work no body can hit me i can walk alone in a dark street with out fear to be raped because all of us are frightened from God who can see u any where any time not frightened from polis or FBI :confused:

Really, you live in plutonic world don't you..... WAKE UP for the love of pizzas
look at this:
http://www.alarabiya.net/Articles/2005/01/09/9397.htm

we can sleep while the door of our house is open no fear to be stollen or killed saudi arabia is the most beaceful country around the world ..
but the terrorests (who are considered in saudi arabia as criminals ) made us ugly & evil & killers but we are not we hate terrorests they represent them selves not islam , if u come to saudi arabia u will be shoked by the sciene of people , cities , mosques , hospitals , schools , collages ,culture ..the sciene which is oppeset of how ur media represent it.

I've lived there in Riyad for 15 years, sorry to tell you gal your country is a mess you want to know more about thousands of shiites in Asir, Najran and Qatif who are being exterminated, sufis in Madina not aloud to to speak for their ideas, and unhuman treatmentof pakis and indians and phillipinos... not to mention the drug and white slave traficing your officials are responsible for!
http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/362A6361-D95E-4406-98B8-8FCECAD8232B.htm

for white slave trade:
http://www.alarabiya.net/Articles/2005/08/18/15977.htm

And beleive me I could do this all day, your country, girl, whether you like it or not, is hell re-incarnated! So, I say again WAKE UP

And you beleive that!?

Based on some I know and wikipedia, yes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_fetishism

Hiding every trace of sexuality is now supposed to be the ultimate in sluttiness!

In Japan, during the samurai and geishas years, hiding more body parts was considered more atracttive... weird? I agree, but then again we all have our kinky desires, somehow;)

Fine! So what's keeping every Western Woman from now diving down to this newly discovered depth of depravity? Are they waiting for Madonna to do it first?

I think they're trying not to look sexy to the veil fetishists:D

nova900




as opposed to a command from a man (such as yourself) who also follows a similar system

- I find it amusing that here is a woman saying she is doing something because it is an instruction from god and suddenly she is swarmed by men telling her to do otherwise because it is actually a command from man she is following - so in other words she is doomed either way, with or without the burka, to follow the commands of men?





How many muslim countries have you been to?




regarding the bold
For a theist, scripture fulfills such a requirement

regarding the italics
and what evidence do we have that your gender values will not meet similar consignments to posterity?

No LG , I believe in a balanced system between male and female. Yes, I do live in a mostly patriarchial society but perhaps it will change for the better.
As far as giving instructions to Saudigirl..thats not my place.She is free to do as she wishes...even if that includes following a religion that has so much gender bias.

As far as "For a theist,scripture fufills such a requirement"...that may be good enough for you and others that blindly wish to believe anything that was related as "Gods' will" and "Gods commands"..but I require solid ,logical proof.
Its one thing to follow a belief system ABOUT God, but quite another to follow a belief system that claims that it is the WORD of God.

I have not been to any muslim countries but I have worked at companies with a large muslim population. I would say some have taken the finer elements of Islam and applied it to their lives and are living a good life,others use the dark side in it and use the spectre of God to enforce their hostile nature upon others.

Suckers. Unbelievable!:D

Hi saudi girl.

Muslim:

Why don't you stop invading our nations?

Maybe, if you didn't bomb ours then we would be living in our own nations. I am great advocate of all cultures living within their own borders. I don't approve of interracial marriage etc. Actually I believe in national socialism.


Stop trying to get more foreigners to come in when you yourself are barely here and identify yourself more as a "Paki" and a "Moslem" than a subject of the United Kingdom?

Its more of a cultural thing. When the white British invaded India (my homeland) they identified themselves as white Anglos Saxons. The Queens crown contains diamonds which were stolen from India. Why don't you teach in British school about the massacres the British committed in India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amritsar_Massacre)? (general dyer?) (why talk about Jewish Holocaust so much? thats part of Jewish history the massacres the British committed in India is part of British history) why were non of the families compensated for? why doesn't your Queen apologize for the racist remark against Punjabi's (http://in.news.yahoo.com/051226/43/61pus.html)? The attitudes of the British toward Punjabis is part of the reason that Hindi and Urdu speakers view Punjabis as simpletons or inferior to them. We can thank them for contributing to the dilution of the Punjabi language in some areas and lack of appreciation for our own Punjabi literary works such as Bulle Shah's Heer Ranjha and over emphasis on people like Mirza Ghalib. The good thing is that people are aware of this now, and are starting to make little changes like wearing punjabi suits instead of saris or churidar pajamas and teaching their kids Punjabi before Urdu or Hindi.

The amazing thing is, the British loved the Punjabi's when they were signing up into the British Indian army (colonial army) and regarded them as warriors (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cheema&oldid=79870594#Cheema.27s_are_a_Martial_Race).

Why don't you go back from whence you came instead of mooch off our nations and corrupt our cultures?

How about you compensated for the destruction you British did in our lands first? And what corruption of what culture? the British have no culture. Going down the pup to get pissed up is no culture or drinking lager and watching football is not not real culture.

And for your info, I don't sign-on, and many Indians/Pakis have a right to be in England our forefathers grandfathers fought in world war 2.


If you want a Moslem wife, why don't you go back to Pakistan? If you want to be amongst your people, why don't you go back to them?

How about we do this, you rebuild India like it was reunite compensated the families who fought in world war 2 for the British army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_Regiment_%28Pakistan%29) and we will go back?

Do you even consider yourself British? Do you practice any British customs? Do you value British historical and cultural figures?

Name some British customs?

at last i hope i didnot annoy or bother any one of u .. salam

not at all... pepperon

i am new member in this forume .. sorry my english language is not that good but i'll try to clearfy my religion (islam) to you by posting these links ..

http://islamtomorrow.com/
this site is for priest & preacher enter islam

http://www.islamuncovered.com/index.html
this site is for christian educated woman enter islam named Merry Watson and after islam named Khadija Watson .


i realy realy realy hope u understand islam as it is not as your media picture it

i watch opra and see how she hates muslim and thinks that all of us are terrorests and women are forced by men to be coverd ...

noooooooooooo
noooooooooo
nooooooooo

it is alie

the woman her self want to be covered because it is a command from ALLAh, not from men

i am muslim woman and cover my self when i want to get out of my house and i am happy with this and proud of my self

THIS IS THE TRUTH

i have many things and facts i want to show but i dont know where to begin.

stop lying to yourself, there are many many Islamic women that would enjoy removing their burka

here is a real Ex-Islamic woman who denounces Islam http://youtube.com/watch?v=Yr9mH-hPjwU

The west has no problem with people wearing burkas or veils, the problem is with being FORCED to wear it...why shouldn't women be free to decide?

saudi girl doesn't wear a burkha. duh. She probably does wet t-shirt contests on spring break.

Freedom isn't a good thing if it's free to be evil, sometimes it is a good thing to be forced to be good. Especially if the evil is directed towards you.

Kendall,

Hence why I say everyone should convert to Islam. It tells you to be good all the time. I mean who wants freedom if you're going to be all alone, because you've killed everyone else by expressing your freedom?

Many Muslim women look upon the modern sexy, tight fitting and short clothing of the non-Muslim woman as being vulgar and sleazy. She finds it hard to understand why a woman would have such low self esteem as to want to appeal to any mans eyes other than her husbands...

..Or to have many sex partners when virginity and modesty are the highest thing that any woman, Muslim or not, can bestow upon her husband.

The west dropped the 'barbaric' notions of virginity and modesty long back and believes in the type of liberty (as in Leo Volont's word above) "where every girl thinks it her duty to flaunt her sexuality and to be in constant state of Presentation for Mounting". The girls alone are not to be blamed. The guys find them stupid enough for the free show and gleefully encourage them, so do the beauty/lifestyle/apparels/whatnot business lobbies. The girls in the east too, especially those with low self-esteem, started copying 'this ready state of presentation for mounting' as trend and style of the west or as dignified whoring.

Kendall,

Hence why I say everyone should convert to Islam. It tells you to be good all the time.

..and Burqa is a necessity for the girls when you are around.

Freedom isn't a good thing if it's free to be evil, sometimes it is a good thing to be forced to be good.
I 150% disagree with you.

Kendall,

Hence why I say everyone should convert to Islam. It tells you to be good all the time. I mean who wants freedom if you're going to be all alone, because you've killed everyone else by expressing your freedom?

basically all religions tell you to be good all the time...so why convert to Islam? If you want to be good all the time why not convert to Buddhism? The Buddha more than anyone else stresses to just do good deeds, as according to him your deeds can never be erased. There is no encouragment of killing like in the Qu'ran

i realy realy realy hope u understand islam as it is not as your media picture it saudi girl, first question
1) If you had a child and that child converted from Islam to another religion (we’ll say Hindu) and in that new belief found a happiness that was not in their life while living in Islam – would you support their personally decision to convert from Islam to Hinduism?

2) I have many personal friends from the Middle East that were Muslim and now are Atheist. They have all told me that on the day they became Atheist was the first day of their entire life that they truly felt free and at peace. Something they never felt while living in Islam. Would you support their decision to become Ahteist because it has given them peace of mind and freedom?

3)
a) Do you think that people in the West should have the freedom to build Mosques and practice Islam openly and freely worship Allah?
b) Do you think that people in Saudi Arabia should have the freedom to build Temples and practice Hinduism openly and freely worship the Goddess Shiva?


Lastly, much the architecture of Mosques, the practice of veiling womenin Islamic countries didn’t start until the 9th century - it was adopted from the Byzantine Christians.



Cheers,
Michael

Kendall,

Hence why I say everyone should convert to Islam. It tells you to be good all the time. I mean who wants freedom if you're going to be all alone, because you've killed everyone else by expressing your freedom?

So, to you, expressing ones freedom means going around killing people?

Hi saudi girl.

You remind me of Thomson and Thompson.:D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_and_Thomson

Freedom isn't a good thing if it's free to be evil, sometimes it is a good thing to be forced to be good. Especially if the evil is directed towards you.

Silly in the extreme, forcing people to do anything doesn't work.

So, if you were free, you'd be doing evil all the time?

And you haven't the brains to figure out that won't work either?

Human civilisation is catergorized according to the degree women exhibit chastity and satisfaction just like men exhibit self control and a sense of responsibility - in the absence of which unwanted progeny are created, which is the greatest contribution society can make towards its downfall in the immediate future (or alternatively abortion can be widely promulgated, which isn't particularly indicative of advanced culture either .....)

So aboriginal people are the most civilized on the planet? Interesting.

the woman her self want to be covered because it is a command from ALLAh, not from men

Do you have any objective evidence that 'Allah' exists?


i am muslim woman and cover my self when i want to get out of my house and i am happy with this and proud of my self

If I couldn't see your features I might not notice you and certainly nor celebrate your beauty... not even with a glance.


THIS IS THE TRUTH

Can you define 'truth' for me?

So aboriginal people are the most civilized on the planet? Interesting.

No, its just that the contemporary so-called civilization of polished animals is so low grade that it makes aboriginal people appear more civilized than them

Dear Saudi Girl,

Thank you for the thread you have started

I am not sure what you really want to acheive by this and what you question is?
Are you uncertain about Islam or are you just giving us your view point on wearing the viel??

I dont think you can honestly get half the people on these boards to go thanks Saudi Girl i never knew that....

thank you for the time you have spent so far explainging your view point..

I dont hink in the Quran it says girls should look like the emperor's royal guard fropm Return of the Jedi but just in black...

########################

Take care
zak

i am new member in this forume .. sorry my english language is not that good but i'll try to clearfy my religion (islam) to you ... i watch opra and see how she ... thinks that ... women are forced by men to be coverd ...

noooooooooooo
noooooooooo
nooooooooo

it is alie

the woman her self want to be covered because it is a command from ALLAh, not from men....
Guess I'll be the one to break this to you. She didn't lie. Mohammed lied. Allah never commanded you to cover up. Mohammed lied that Allah communed with him and had his scribes write the Koran, the words of a MAN. So man has oppressed you by lying to you and telling you that Allah told you to do that. As for the terrorists bit, I doubt she thinks you're *all* terrorists, but look at the situation from an outsiders perspective. What happened when the pope quoted a statement by another that the Muslim beliefs promote violence. Was the reaction peaceful demonstration? NO. Muslims burnt churches and killed a nun. What do you think would have happened if a Muslim preacher accused Catholicism of the same thing? Absolutely nothing. Now before you jump to conclusions and assume that I am on their side and thus biased you need to read some of my past posts. I am a neutral judge on such matters as I have always said ALL religions are wrong. Christian, Jew, Muslim, Bhudist, Mystery Babylon, they are all wrong. Catholosisms past is just as blood soaked as your religion, but as an outside neutral observer I have to say that at least their church leaders in unison today are anti-violence as the biblical Jesus was. Your Mosque leaders on the other hand have quite a share that endorse terrorism. Would a true religion of God be like yours in that way?

saudi girl was the son of sam (sockpuppet), geez stop it already.

Greetings,

I am terribly sorry, I conflated two DIFFERENT people.
My apologies.


Iasion

If you dont think that a girl should be forced to wear a burka than you shoulden't think that she should be forced not to, and then its up to her and her community.

If you dont think that a girl should be forced to wear a burka than you shoulden't think that she should be forced not to, and then its up to her and her community.
No communities shouldn't legislate personal morality. How would you feel if your community decided that you have to wear the number 666 on your head or right hand?

No communities shouldn't legislate personal morality. How would you feel if your community decided that you have to wear the number 666 on your head or right hand?

Or not wear clothes?

Or not wear clothes?sounds like a good idea to me.

kjjkjk

Silly in the extreme, forcing people to do anything doesn't work.

So, if you were free, you'd be doing evil all the time?

And you haven't the brains to figure out that won't work either?

Q

There are cultures in this world who are permitted to do what we in the 'controlled' west would consider the height of evil, but for them it is acceptable and common place behaviour. These are not evil people, but they behave in what we consider an evil way because..............they are allowed to. Who knows to what extent people in the west would behave with less 'control'.

The culture I speak of is one in India where the men will do the follwoing if a third party informs them their wife 'looked' at another man.

Hang her upside down by her ankles, cut off her nose, pluck out her eyes and cut off her tongue. Then leave her to die, they may even set her on fire. For nothing more than I have detailed. Common occurrance.

The gangs that are not policed in America etc, also not evil but evil acts are permitted and encouraged and becoem 'normal' within that sub culture as a result.

Prisoners have different levels of what is acceptable, men/women will behave differently according to those levels in prison, same with soldiers during war in the past.

All this due to lack of control.

Muslim(s),

There is nothing you can do.

Your children, or your childrens' children, or your childrens' childrens' children will all eventually abandon the Muslim 'faith' and assimilate. How do you like that for sweet reality?

Q

There are cultures in this world who are permitted to do what we in the 'controlled' west would consider the height of evil, but for them it is acceptable and common place behaviour. These are not evil people, but they behave in what we consider an evil way because..............they are allowed to. Who knows to what extent people in the west would behave with less 'control'.

The culture I speak of is one in India where the men will do the follwoing if a third party informs them their wife 'looked' at another man.

Hang her upside down by her ankles, cut off her nose, pluck out her eyes and cut off her tongue. Then leave her to die, they may even set her on fire. For nothing more than I have detailed. Common occurrance.

The gangs that are not policed in America etc, also not evil but evil acts are permitted and encouraged and becoem 'normal' within that sub culture as a result.

Prisoners have different levels of what is acceptable, men/women will behave differently according to those levels in prison, same with soldiers during war in the past.

All this due to lack of control.

Then that man violated her freedom. She shouldnt be so controlled by him. They have less freedom considering hers as well, not more. This is not lack of control. It is too much control.

Muslim(s),

There is nothing you can do.

Your children, or your childrens' children, or your childrens' childrens' children will all eventually abandon the Muslim 'faith' and assimilate. How do you like that for sweet reality?

No I will never allow this. As there will be constant reminders.

Q

There are cultures in this world who are permitted to do what we in the 'controlled' west would consider the height of evil, but for them it is acceptable and common place behaviour. These are not evil people, but they behave in what we consider an evil way because..............they are allowed to. Who knows to what extent people in the west would behave with less 'control'.

The culture I speak of is one in India where the men will do the follwoing if a third party informs them their wife 'looked' at another man.

Hang her upside down by her ankles, cut off her nose, pluck out her eyes and cut off her tongue. Then leave her to die, they may even set her on fire. For nothing more than I have detailed. Common occurrance.

The gangs that are not policed in America etc, also not evil but evil acts are permitted and encouraged and becoem 'normal' within that sub culture as a result.

Prisoners have different levels of what is acceptable, men/women will behave differently according to those levels in prison, same with soldiers during war in the past.

All this due to lack of control.

Its part of their religion, their mythological god mutilated women.


Aryan husbands cut off the ears and nose of their wives if they left the house without their prior permission. The Pancatantra mentions one such story [Pancatantra p.54, I.7th story "The Weaver’s Wife"]. The weaver cut off his wife’s nose because she did not respond and he considered her unfaithful. (actually he cut off the barber’s wife’s nose who was there instead.) The Ramayana and Lord Rama practiced the cutting off of womens’ noses for minor offences, thereby providing divine sanction for the custom. Shurpanakha was a Dravidian lady ( referred to as Rakshis or female demons by the Aryans) who fell in love with Rama. She proposed to him, but he directed her to his brother Laxman. He cut off her ears and nose for this crime, and Ram condoned this act. [Alld Chmbrs 1036]

http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/hinduism/hindu_women.html

Its part of their religion, their mythological god mutilated women.

Mythical gods don't actually commit acts of good or evil. People who believe in them do. They bomb buildings and school buses; assassinate abortion doctors; burn witches; drown and dismember their infant children; rape women "possessed" by "demons" as a form of exorcism; oppress women and suggest that a veil must be worn or if she's raped/assualted it was her fault, not the man that found her attractive and couldn't control his 'god'-given urges; etc.

This is one reason why religious belief is bad for society. The question then becomes: is the net result for society good or bad? Obviously religious organizations attempt to do good things around the world and many believe they are acting in the best interest of their fellow man.

Personally, I see no reason why religious cults like Islam or Christianity are necessary to do good in the world. Whenever someone believes their version of god(s) wants them to act a certain way and they're willing to die for their god(s), there is an unpredictable element of risk to the rest of society.

Whenever someone believes their version of god(s) wants them to act a certain way and they're willing to [i]die[/i ] for their god(s), there is an unpredictable element of risk to the rest of society.

1. What do scientists who design weapons for the military, building more and more destructive bombs capable of mass destruction believe in?

2. Are there atheists in the army? Are they willing to die/ kill to defend their country?

The culture I speak of is one in India where the men will do the follwoing if a third party informs them their wife 'looked' at another man.

Hang her upside down by her ankles, cut off her nose, pluck out her eyes and cut off her tongue. Then leave her to die, they may even set her on fire. For nothing more than I have detailed. Common occurrance.

Where in the world did you gather this information!!! :bugeye: :eek:

Far from truth!

Are those scientists or engineers exploting the work of science? I'd assert that there are very few scientists who do science with intent to destroy or harm.

With regard to atheists, this is a non sequitur. It doesn't follow that because a critical argument can be made about the nature of religious nutters bent on dying for their 'god,' and because there are atheists who may or may not be willing to "die/kill" for their country that we shouldn't criticize religion. We can merely accept that there are a multiple reasons for people to be willing to "die/kill" for, but religion would seem to be the most prevalent.

What's fascinating with your arguments, however, is that they are common attempts at justification by religious adherents the world over so they can excuse the transgressions of those nutters within their cults that go beserk in the name of their gods. It doesn't wash. Sorry.

"Aryan husbands cut off the ears and nose of their wives if they left the house without their prior permission. The Pancatantra mentions one such story [Pancatantra p.54, I.7th story "The Weaver’s Wife"]. The weaver cut off his wife’s nose because she did not respond and he considered her unfaithful. (actually he cut off the barber’s wife’s nose who was there instead.) The Ramayana and Lord Rama practiced the cutting off of womens’ noses for minor offences, thereby providing divine sanction for the custom. Shurpanakha was a Dravidian lady ( referred to as Rakshis or female demons by the Aryans) who fell in love with Rama. She proposed to him, but he directed her to his brother Laxman. He cut off her ears and nose for this crime, and Ram condoned this act. [Alld Chmbrs 1036] ”
Even if we assume what you quoted from the hate site is right for a moment, aren't you doing the same NOW, that somebody else had done thousands of years ago? :D

Are those scientists or engineers exploting the work of science? I'd assert that there are very few scientists who do science with intent to destroy or harm.

With regard to atheists, this is a non sequitur. It doesn't follow that because a critical argument can be made about the nature of religious nutters bent on dying for their 'god,' and because there are atheists who may or may not be willing to "die/kill" for their country that we shouldn't criticize religion. We can merely accept that there are a multiple reasons for people to be willing to "die/kill" for, but religion would seem to be the most prevalent.

What's fascinating with your arguments, however, is that they are common attempts at justification by religious adherents the world over so they can excuse the transgressions of those nutters within their cults that go beserk in the name of their gods. It doesn't wash. Sorry.

In other words, scientists who design the bombs are completely free of any responsibility how they are utilised, even though the primary purpose of a weapon is to kill or destroy.

As for religion being most prevalent, I would say demagogy has the upper hand here and religion is easily replaced by the next populist theme or fear.



http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.2.GIF

Muslim

“ Originally Posted by Muslim
"Aryan husbands cut off the ears and nose of their wives if they left the house without their prior permission. The Pancatantra mentions one such story [Pancatantra p.54, I.7th story "The Weaver’s Wife"].

Pancatantra is a book about morals - similar to aesops fables

The Ramayana and Lord Rama practiced the cutting off of womens’ noses for minor offences, thereby providing divine sanction for the custom. Shurpanakha was a Dravidian lady ( referred to as Rakshis or female demons by the Aryans) who fell in love with Rama. She proposed to him, but he directed her to his brother Laxman. He cut off her ears and nose for this crime, and Ram condoned this act. [Alld Chmbrs 1036] ”

meaning that they ate human flesh, particularly babies

The whole quote rings of the absurdities that arise when anthropologists attempt to give an analysis of vedic scripture (Dravidian lady - lol )

anyway if you actually want to examine vedic recommendations for gender issues between husband and wife there are more direct and credible sources

I must say your command of the English language, writing skills, grammar and spelling really inproved with your 2nd post. I see you and Mosheh share the same writing style too. Do you like him?

Exactly! This is what caught my attention too. I'm interested in following this up. And I did consider the possibility that she might have copied it from somehwere else, but I did a search in Goolge and couldn't find any site which had those words (actually Google led me back here). Okay, still, it might have been some obscure site (I glanced at the links she gave and couldn't find anything there, but I didn't go through the whole site in detail). And now she seems to have ended the discussion. Who is interested in following this up? I am! If we analyze the language, maybe we can come up with something...