ok everyone will think im "anti american" but maybe its time we WERE

the US ambasidor to australia atacked the oposition for not going along quietly with the goverment

HOW DARE HE

this is BLANTANT interference in domestic politics of a DEMOCRASY something the US surposedly stands for

i dont know if the oposition leader intoduced anything into parliment over it but i hope so

this goes against EVERYTHING the US surposedly stands for

we are a democrasy yet the US seems to think that the parliment is responcable to THEM rather than to the people of australia

i cant belive this happened

if john howard was seriouse about australia the ambasiador should be kicked out of australia until an apology comes from washinton

Unfortunately we can't kick out the representative of one of our major trading partners.

i notice that john howard hasnt even said a WORD about it

its a bloody discrace

i wish we could patishion the govornor genral to remove the goverment again

then we might get a goverment who will work for AUSTRALIA

to put this into perspective there was an OUTCRY against our OWN governer genral when he said "this has to be done" to our departing troops

he was acused of playing politics

now this may not be a big thing for the yanks where all there public figures ARE pollys but in australia the only pollys are in parliment and positions like judges, the goveners and the govener genral, defenceforce brass, top public servants are all surpost to stay OUT of politics

if the QUEEN did that there would be an out cry and she is our head of state

for a forign diplomat of ANY nationality to do this is one of the worst things i can think they could do (apart from comiting crimes under imunity)

we MUST pull out of this idiocy NOW before WE are the 51st state

All diplomats will speak for their respective governments. What a foreign government wants is not necessarily what the sovereign government wants or desires.

It is up to your leaders as to what they will do. Not the US nor any other diplomat will make policy for the respective government. That does not prevent them from speaking their minds.

wet1 its a SERIOUSE breach of protical to interfear in domestic politics

they are alowed to deal with the goverment but to speak out in our media against our democrasy is a SERIOUSE breach

Is it serious to say, I don't agree with your actions? Has there been any offical stance from the US or is this just the diplomat stating "his" views on the subject? Has there been any threat that if you don't fall into order then such and such will take place? To me it does not sound as if he is trying to make domestic policy, he is stating that he does not agree with Australia's action or inaction. Such goes on all the time in any country as other countries try to influance actions by the government they are host to. It makes me suspicious that there is much political wrangling in the background and this has been, shall we say, leaked to the press? Taken out of the context and the place it was said, gives the impression often that what is said is something other than what was meant...

you missunderstand wet1

this wasnt LEAKED to the press

this was him GOING to the press to tell them

Let the dust settle and see how this shakes out, Asguard. All may not be what appears on surface to be.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/National/story_45689.asp


"He does not have the right, nor does any ambassador to interfere into the domestic politics of this country or to cast his views as being against what the Labor Party is standing for and pro what the government is standing for," he said.

"That's unprecedented and unacceptable, but it's also poor form."

Mr Crean said he would not be intimidated by the ambassador - a close friend of Mr Bush - and he would continue to stand up for what he believed in.

"I'm going to stand up for what's in Australia's interests, the national interest. That's not un-American, that's pro-Australian," he said.
But he said he and Mr Crean had a long phone conversation about his comments in the magazine and would meet as soon as possible.

Uh, ok. So firstly Crean tours the US and doesn't bother meeting with their government. Considering he's in a job which might require him working closely with them one day, that's definately a snub. Then a Labor bencher insults Bush, and I take it nothing was done? Unless of course you don't count "...flaky and the most dangerous and incompetent US leader in living memory" as being overly insulting.

Secondly, he didn't accuse the opposition of "not going along quietly with the government". He accused them of appealing to anti-Americanism. Sounds fair enough to me, that's exactly what they're doing at the moment.

Now whether Labor or Crean like Bush or not, they cannot in all seriousness complain when the US says things like this. Do you expect them to sit quietly by while their leader is insulted by a member of the opposition and the leader of the opposition doesn't even take the time to talk to them?

Just a minute Asguard.. I thought you were a believer in free speech? Unless of course, the one speaking is saying something you personally don't like... right?

In addition, I can't see how a comment like this is going to affect the politics of this country at all. So he intimated he doesn't like Labor. So what? Are you or anyone else going to change how you vote as a result?

Quite frankly, your predjudices are showing... again.

actully im against free speach

i dont belive in freedom to harm

i thought everyone would have guessed that by my surport of victorias "dracoinan" (as someone said, cant rember who) harasment laws

free speach is a falacy

i AM for a democrasy in the best interests of the AUSTRALIAN people

i couldnt care LESS wether bush is slighted
good for him

the oposition works for AUSTRALIA not the US presidant
THAT is what a democrasy is

the goverment for the PEOPLE, something the US surposedly stands for

this is CLEARLY interfearence in DOMESTIC politics

i mean where does it stop?

the ambasidor saying that the US will cause job losses of australians if we dont vote for howard in the next election like they DO do in the middle easten countrys?

ASguard,

I wouldn't let it worry you. The US administration has insisted on this kind of prat behaviour for years in this country.

For years, the Aus government has had nothing but criticism to our government for our refusal to accept nuclear anything in this country. And how that has affected the Anzac agreement. For all our faults, at least our governemtn hasn't acted like a handmaiden, rubber-stamping Bush-gate.

You should know, from the contempt that the USA government also showed towards the world trade court case, which was the joint Aus/NZ one regarding Lamb, that the USA government does exactly what it wants. They lost the case, but told the court to stick the judgement you know where. Where are we now? Exactly where we were before. When a country has contempt for any court of law, watch out.

Maybe its time that the Australian people elected a government that wasn't an American marionette. And who can think for themselves, and act for themselves.

As far as we are concerned, in this neck of the woods, the Australian Government appears to be an autopilot.

Question is, what are the Australian people going to do about it?

Labor frontbencher Mark Latham, in particular, drew Mr Schieffer's ire last week when he described US president George W Bush as flaky and the most dangerous and incompetent US leader in living memory

Here we have the Astrailian politician doing much the same as he expresses his opinion of the US leader. Nothing new here, goes both ways, Asguard.

The ambassador complained informally to Mr Crean at the time and repeated his criticism in comments published in The Bulletin magazine on Wednesday.

We see here that it was not said behind Mr Crean's back, only repeated afterwards.

He said Mr Crean had snubbed the opportunity to meet key US administration figures during a trip to the US over the parliamentary Christmas break.

Would you not say it was tit for tat, Asguard?

Mr Crean said he would not be intimidated by the ambassador - a close friend of Mr Bush - and he would continue to stand up for what he believed in.

Which just goes to say what I had stated earlier. It was the ambassador's opinion that was stated.

Asguard, this stuff goes on all the time. Not just with Austrailia, not just with the US, but all diplomats in all countries. What is seen in public papers are rarely the true events. Everyone has some kind of angle.

i couldnt care LESS wether bush is slighted
good for him

While I am not up to defending shrub, you should not be suprised when things come back in the face of that kind of attitude when displayed by public figures. Pissing contests rarely do anyone any good. Sounds to me like to school boys and my dad's meaner than your dad routine.

i am happy to post what i voted at the last election and will at the next

1) democrats
2) labor
3) libral (i THINK)
4) i THINK this was one nation and i will take the libs any day over them

next election will be the same

i like to surport the democrats but to be realistic i vote labor

all i can do is hope that cren is strong enough to tell washinton to keep there nose OUT of australia

wet1 what your missing is that australia DOESNT do that

our ambasidors stay out of politics, our public servents stay out of politics, EVEN our govenor genral stays out of politics

there have been questions now wether we SHOULD be doing the same now, wether OUR dimplomats are not sticking up for australia ENOUGH

but i belive in DEMOCRASY and think that international politics should be kept away from demestic politics

first we have a PM who stands up in the parliment and acuses cren of baging bush more than sadam for christ sake and now THIS

how can anyone living here feel that our goverment is still representing australian interests when the PM seems like a subject of bush's

does that matter to the US?
of corse not but to put it in the interests of the US, labor WILL win the next election and you WILL have to deal with crean or his successor, do you want to do it with a PM who feels you interfeared in our politics against him?

My gran used to tell me about the Loudmouth yanks. "Southers" she called 'em.
This how George and company are playing their end;
"Y' for us or agin us. No liberal bullshit. Follow or watch your sons grow up on unemployment!"
Why such attitude?
Well George is a paranoid little fuck. He has a republican guard of pollsters spinners and hacks. All yes men to the core. George has always liked to know who his friends are.
George also fears getting fucked. His backs to the wall and he knows if he turns round France and Germany will stiff him long and hard. Those old Europeans don't come cheap and he's likely got other old friends wanting a piece of the action.
He can afford no more dissention.
Oz and the UK are all he's got.
Oh and a few minor places that didn't know they were European nations till their leaders cut a deal and put it on the evening news.

As the bullshit rises, watch the truth start to drown.

Dee Cee

all i can do is hope that cren is strong enough to tell washinton to keep there nose OUT of australiaSo long as your PM continues to click his heels, and say Heil Bush, US Government representatives will want a say if they perceive the heels aren't been clicked fast enough.

It's time for Howard to withdraw all forces from Afghanistan and the Middle East, and to actually show the rest of us that he is an Australian man, not an American clone...

hey i thought i would use my own thread to rectify one point too

a poll someone posted around here somewhere said we were the most war like counrty and that 98% of us are in favor of war

i can prove this is false

the man who will be the next leader of the libral party (not the deputy PM because the deputy always comes from the national party, stupid ganging up) is keeping his head RIGHT down

why?

if there was big surport he would be out making himself known to surport this because it would be good for him when he runs for the top job

so if he is keeping his head down its cause he wants to be distanced from little johnny when the next election (or in the case of john howard not retiring and labor wining the one after that) so he isnt tared by all this

john howard is facing a potentual back bencher revolt over this, altho it hasnt gone that far yet, but wait and see if we dont have a new PM when the first australian is killed

i dont know the presedure for a PM to be removed by his party but i know it can happen, may cause a double dissilusion election tho but nothing happerning now would surprise me

for the first time EVER the PM has be censured by the house of review

not even WHITLEM faced that motion and he couldnt even pass the budget (causing the constitutional crisis)

we could also have a PM facing war crimes charges in australia i aussme

and there is always the chance that the govonor genral could sack the goverment if it was that seriouse

both his successor and his oposition are against howards policy and he stole the last election on a miss use of defence intel

so we are left with the only people who like little johnny arnt even in the country


im sorry none of this makes ANY sence and i should delete it now but it took me so long to write i wont, i got distracted:o

Originally posted by Asguard
actully im against free speach

aye, that figures...

i couldnt care LESS wether bush is slighted
good for him

Hypocracy levels rising...

the ambasidor saying that the US will cause job losses of australians if we dont vote for howard in the next election like they DO do in the middle easten countrys?

Asguard making it up as he goes along.

our ambasidors stay out of politics, our public servents stay out of politics,

Pure comedy...

if there was big surport he would be out making himself known to surport this because it would be good for him when he runs for the top job

so if he is keeping his head down its cause he wants to be distanced from little johnny when the next election (or in the case of john howard not retiring and labor wining the one after that) so he isnt tared by all this

Speculatative, totally unsupported... imaginative though.

we could also have a PM facing war crimes charges in australia i aussme

Imagination running completely wild now...

so we are left with the only people who like little johnny arnt even in the country

One can only assume Asguard doesn't get out much.

im sorry none of this makes ANY sence and i should delete it now but it took me so long to write i wont, i got distracted

That's ok, we're kinda used to it by now. If nothing else, your posts always make me grin a little.

and yours make me scratch my head

why is it ALL the states are in the hands of labor (with the possable exception of queensland which im not sure about)?

why is it costello is not saying a WORD?

why is it that the back benches are complaining to john because hes lossing them surport?

why is it that for the first time EVER a motion of no confidance was passed in the senart?

why is it that DOCTORS, not "radical left wingers" are protesting the howard goverment?

why is it that howard kept the departure of the kanimbla from the oposition leader untill half a day before it left, in contervention with political tradition?

why is it that the vacinations that take 4 weeks to come into efect were not adminstered here where the navy could have easerly replaced those who were unwilling?

why is it that the NZ ambasidor is the one telling the people of australia that we joined the coalition of the willing and couldnt withdraw if we wanted to?

why is it that john howard stood up in PARLIMENT and acused the oposition leader of being mean to bush?

why is it NOW that the ambassador comes out saying that the oposition should follow the goverement?

why if im dreaming was the goveror genral forced to take a back step after saying to troops that "this had to be done"?

why is it that john howard has AGAIN abandoned this country at a time when we need our PM? (how long has he actully spent inside australia in the last year?)

why is it that our PM felt that an american tragity killing 7 was more important than a rail crash here which killed 9?

why is it that again the PM has been proved to be lying to the parliment (one of the WORST crimes for a MP), proven out of the mouth of bush none the less?

i seem to have a WAY better grasp of my country than you seem to

i can go back even further to look at howards arogance towards the australian people

like the tamper where he used defence assests against to win a political campaine in violation of the LAW

edit to add:
just a side note, you DO know that free speach doesnt exist here?

we have defimation laws, restrictions of sensitive info, harasment, discrimination ect

these all are limits to free speach
its a falacy that we have it

Originally posted by Asguard
and yours make me scratch my head

I imagine quite a few things have that effect on you.

why is it ALL the states are in the hands of labor (with the possable exception of queensland which im not sure about)?

Why is the government liberal? Silly question, I know, but considering most of the state governments were elected before all of this became the issue it is now, it seems as pointless a question.

why is it costello is not saying a WORD?

Maybe he's visiting relatives. Who the fuck knows? I've heard your theory, and frankly it's merely conjecture. You might be right, be neither you nor I could know.

why is it that the back benches are complaining to john because hes lossing them surport?

Support is forever on the minds of politicians. They're not concerned with doing what's right, they're concerned with getting re-elected. That much should have been obvious. Seems to me they're interested in re-election, and Howard is not. I don't like him much, but he's got guts. And that I like.

why is it that for the first time EVER a motion of no confidance was passed in the senart?

Possibly because the Senate is comprised mostly of opposition members, and they made the most of what they saw as an opportunity? Maybe because Howard is not a weak man, they can't influence him, and it's pissing them off a little?

http://www.planetpapers.com/Assets/4149.php

Have a look at this.. seems your beloved labor party doesn't even like having a powerful senate much, except of course when it's useful to them. Have a look at the last paragraph, too.

http://www.anawa.org.au/politics/government.html

And this, which should give you a fair idea of where most senators are going to stand politically. Given the our national government is Liberal, and that most states are Labor, seems to me that the senate is going to be predominately anti-government. And yet, the vote passed by a narrow margin (31-33 if I remember correctly.) Would this seem to indicate that even the opposition members of the senate weren't united on the vote of non-confidence?

why is it that DOCTORS, not "radical left wingers" are protesting the howard goverment?

Whatever makes you think doctors are right wing? Besides which, they're not thinking about politics, they're thinking about bits of soldier they'll have to put back together. They're kinda biased. Besides which, they hardly represent any sort of majority group.

why is it that howard kept the departure of the kanimbla from the oposition leader untill half a day before it left, in contervention with political tradition?

Crean has already shown his feathers. Perhaps he just didn't want to deal with him complaining again.? Tradition is not law.

why is it that the vacinations that take 4 weeks to come into efect were not adminstered here where the navy could have easerly replaced those who were unwilling?

I'm not sure I follow this.

why is it that the NZ ambasidor is the one telling the people of australia that we joined the coalition of the willing and couldnt withdraw if we wanted to?

Oh.. I see. So, it's ok for the NZ government to interfere with Australian politics but not for the US.. right? Hypocrite.

why is it that john howard stood up in PARLIMENT and acused the oposition leader of being mean to bush?

Maybe they were? Crean was downright rude in snubbing them during his trip, and the backbencher should have been censured for doing exactly what you're whinging about the US ambassador doing, except in even worse language.
Honesty of any sort in politics is quite refreshing if you ask me.

why is it NOW that the ambassador comes out saying that the oposition should follow the goverement?

Not sure what your point is.

why if im dreaming was the goveror genral forced to take a back step after saying to troops that "this had to be done"?

Hadn't heard anything about this. Reference?

i seem to have a WAY better grasp of my country than you seem to

Meh, won't go any further, it's getting boring.

I know something you've got a good grasp of, but it doesn't have anything to do with politics. Just because all your mates think like you do, Asguard, doesn't mean everyone else does.

Originally posted by Asguard
just a side note, you DO know that free speach doesnt exist here?

Actually, it does. It's never been incorporated into the constitution or into law because up until now, Australians have traditonally pretty much said what was on their minds. It's a given which never needed legal guarantees. We trust ourselves to speak our minds without being fools about it, and we censure those who take such freedom too far. That's how it works here. Until now we haven't needed to make it a law, constitutional or otherwise.

It'd be a damn shame if we had to make it law because of people like you. It'd be a terrible indicator of how far we've departed from our origins.

We do not have any guarantee of freedom of speech in Australia, constitutional or otherwise. In fact, there is a little green form the government sends out to TV stations, newspapers, and all the other broadcasters which can legally prevent them from mentioned a subject in any way. For example, if Howard is photographed being butt-reemed by the archbishop, they send out this form with that incident marked in as the subject, and it is then absolutely illegal to mention it in any way. And yes, I've seen the fotm itself.

Freedom of speech is in no way protected or guaranteed in Australia.

Be that as it may, it certainly doesn't stop the media making the government look foolish when they have a mind to. The Tampa incident is one example springing to mind. The illegal refugee issue is another. Nothing stops me saying Howard is an idiot, Crean is an idiot, or stops the media from reporting pretty much what they please.

Asguard was giving the impression it doesn't "exist" here, which is erroneous. I was correcting any bad impressions he may have given by stating it in those words.

abd having criticised me for my "fried brains" comments, all I can say is that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. And you come across as if you are an Australian. I bet you think the sun shines outta Howards navel...

You didn't just see fit to have "no sins" that you cast the first stone, you threw the bloody pile.

Permission to speak is needed to have a vent?

Anyone with a brain can see what Asguard is saying. He is annoyed. And actually I am too, because I live this neck of the woods too you know. And I see some of what he is saying, because the American Government attempts to treat the New Zealand government as if they are shit.

But then, our Government has to balls to tell them to flush their shit down their own loos, because we aren't interested.

And that, up until now, has been the difference between the Aussie Govt and the New Zealand government.

However, the Bush administration, in it's Imperialistic drive, has turned the heat up on our Government, and it wouldn't surprise me if some time in the future, our Government becomes a grovelling Wormtongue as well.

Though I hope that the people here will rise up, and tell our politicians where to go if that happens.

But I hear Asguards feelings, and actually agree with his sentiments in general. Because our politicians do not interfere in other countries politics, except by presenting data to the UN, or the Whaling commission would be another example....

As to your comment (asguardwhy is it that the NZ ambasidor is the one telling the people of australia that we joined the coalition of the willing and couldnt withdraw if we wanted to?

Oh.. I see. So, it's ok for the NZ government to interfere with Australian politics but not for the US.. right? Hypocrite. The New Zealand Ambassador didn't actually. The New Zealand Ambassador simply provided the facts that proved the contention to be accurate.

Here's another one: Crean was downright rude in snubbing them during his tripDon't you know that the Americans do this all the time to us? Just about every time a New Zealand politician goes to America, the American politicians either refuse to see them or if they do, change the appointment at least three times, let them wait about four hours, and then cut the meeting to three minutes. We are eternally polite, and never snub any visits from them, but hey...

Now why would they do that?

Because we had the balls to call them on the lamb issue (and a few other trade issues), and we won the lamb one..., though America refuses to abide by the court ruling, .....and we are not prepared to accept either nuclear powered or nuclear armed vessels in any port in the country, or be told by the American Defence Department that we must arm our forced with American made military hardware. WE don't happen to suck up to people, like the Brits and Howard do....

So big swaggering USA Government is so offended by all this they treat us like that?

Well, hey we are just a little fish in the ocean, and actually they have done us a favour. At least so far, we are so insignificant, and small, that we still maintain our sovereignty, instead of spending mega time Bush-ass wiping like the Australian PM does....

I know exactly where Asguard is coming from, though I wouldn't put it the way he does...that you don't just proves a point that even supposedly thinking Australians differ markedly.

Can't you see that this is just a vent about Howard? Most thinking Aussies would agree with Asguard, and most New Zealanders say it long before the Aussies did....

And as for your concept of Aussie freedom of speech. I know all about your "freedom of speech". I regularly get bitten by it. Or should I say, the lack of.....it is an illusion only.

But then, the same is now true of New Zealand any any sphere that involves either medicine, genetic modification, or international relations.

Why? Because money makes the rules.

now now lets not get carried away. we have been allies, fought side by side and whatnot! lets kiss and make up shall we??

gimme a minute to lift my gown up. there! kiss away!

http://spookyz.virtualave.net/tmp/kma1.jpg

:D

Statue of Liberty is it?

I'd kiss that ass any day.

Trouble is, the person who should be kissin it, has forgotten what it stood for, or even how that applies to the American constitution.

Seriously spooks - I have many many American friends, all of whom are really distressed at how their actual freedoms are being subtly undermined.... and exactly the direction that the US government appears to be driving them....and I really feel for them...

Originally posted by Hesomagari
abd having criticised me for my "fried brains" comments, all I can say is that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

Repeating some old dictum coined by some unimaginative pedant years ago is the lowest form of wit, in my opinion.

And you come across as if you are an Australian. I bet you think the sun shines outta Howards navel...

I am Australian. I don't think the sun shines out of Howard's navel, it clearly emerges nearer the anal region. Like most of what I've seen from you so far.

If you'd done any reading at all you would have seen that the only thing I really admire about Howard is his guts. But no, you see someone who thinks as you do getting hammered and you just wade on in with a pile of assumptions and little more.

You didn't just see fit to have "no sins" that you cast the first stone, you threw the bloody pile.

Some people deserve it. Asguard gets my extra special attention because this time because he sees fit to pass himself off as knowing and representing Australia, whereas he in fact knows little more than what he read in "Australian Socialist Monthly" magazine.

Permission to speak is needed to have a vent?

Nope, I'm doing it right now. If you're going to vent though, You'd want to make sure at least half of what you're saying has some sort of logical basis or factual evidence. And if you're going to say that you know more about his own country than someone else does (which he's been living in roughly half as long as I have from what I gather), you'd want to have a fair bit to back you up on it or you're going to get slammed.

Anyone with a brain can see what Asguard is saying. He is annoyed. And actually I am too, because I live this neck of the woods too you know. And I see some of what he is saying, because the American Government attempts to treat the New Zealand government as if they are shit.

Maybe you should be nice to them and let them park their big ships in your harbours.

I can see what Asguard is saying. You're assuming I should agree with him. I don't. So sorry to disappoint you.

But then, our Government has to balls to tell them to flush their shit down their own loos, because we aren't interested.

Ah.. so you're not going to let them park their big ships in your harbours. Well... you know, I might be wrong, but exactly what have you done for the americans lately to make them want to be nice to you? Apart from letting them film "Xena" on your territory.

And that, up until now, has been the difference between the Aussie Govt and the New Zealand government.

See, this is another place I have issue with the Anti-US posters, of which you are clearly just one more. You all assume that if Australia doesn't tell the US where to get off, it's because we don't have the balls. For fuck's sake, has it occured to any of you morons that we might be just following the US in this of our own volition? I mean, it just couldn't be because Howard regards the US as an ally and sees things in a similar way? Or is that too simple an explanation and therefore couldn't possibly be true?

However, the Bush administration, in it's Imperialistic drive, has turned the heat up on our Government, and it wouldn't surprise me if some time in the future, our Government becomes a grovelling Wormtongue as well.

Oh that's right. You let them film "The Lord of the Rings" there too, didn't you? And you personally, in their place, would have told them where to shove it, of course. Oh wait... "the people" should be doing that, not you personally. You just rant.

But I hear Asguards feelings, and actually agree with his sentiments in general. Because our politicians do not interfere in other countries politics, except by presenting data to the UN, or the Whaling commission would be another example....

Erm..Brown? Not to mention that you probably don't interfere with other people's politics because in general, they ignore you.

As to your commentThe New Zealand Ambassador didn't actually. The New Zealand Ambassador simply provided the facts that proved the contention to be accurate.

He did? Perhaps you should check on the definition of the word "facts" in the dictionary.

The American Ambassador merely said that Crean was appealing to anti-Americanism. That is all.

As to Brown's statement, I covered that earlier. Perhaps you missed it.

Here's another one: Don't you know that the Americans do this all the time to us? Just about every time a New Zealand politician goes to America, the American politicians either refuse to see them or if they do, change the appointment at least three times, let them wait about four hours, and then cut the meeting to three minutes. We are eternally polite, and never snub any visits from them, but hey...

Got anything more than "he hit me first, mum"?

Well, hey we are just a little fish in the ocean, and actually they have done us a favour. At least so far, we are so insignificant, and small, that we still maintain our sovereignty, instead of spending mega time Bush-ass wiping like the Australian PM does....

Well, you are rather small and insignificant (and clearly this bothers you a little). Anyone invading you, for example, would have to go through us first. Being in the reserve trenches gives you a little latitude on how you "maintain your sovereignity".

I know exactly where Asguard is coming from, though I wouldn't put it the way he does...that you don't just proves a point that even supposedly thinking Australians differ markedly.

Asguard's comments amount to little more than heresay and speculation. He presents them as "how the Australian people really think". Of course I'm going to jump on him. Can't have these Americans thinking their allies are a bunch of slightly pink conspiracy-theorists who can't spell.

Can't you see that this is just a vent about Howard? Most thinking Aussies would agree with Asguard, and most New Zealanders say it long before the Aussies did....

If Asguard was to say (or even so much as hint) "in my opinion, and I have no facts to back this up" I would leave him alone. Asguard likes to think, however, that he is the mouthpiece of the general Australian public, and therefore I don't.

And as for your concept of Aussie freedom of speech. I know all about your "freedom of speech". I regularly get bitten by it. Or should I say, the lack of.....it is an illusion only.

Ah I see. So you're obviously writing this from your detention block, having been picked up by the internal security agents for saying bad things about John Howard... right?

But then, the same is now true of New Zealand any any sphere that involves either medicine, genetic modification, or international relations.

What?

MarquisHesomagari --- But then, the same is now true of New Zealand any any sphere that involves either medicine, genetic modification, or international relations.

Marquis --- What?

You mean, you don't know....:eek: Oh. Why am I suddenly surprised....

And here was I, looking for the bow-down-and-worship she who thinks she knows all.

Your replies are as valid as you said Asguards actual information is.

You just love the sound of your voice, and can't see beyond the propaganda you swallow.

End of discussion on the issues with you, since discussion is patently impossible. You are purely on the board to stir shit.

Feel free. But not at my expense.

Ok. Just don't assume I'm going to swallow Asguard's "propaganda" either.

If you lefties think you can come on here, tell each other you're a majority, attempt to pass yourselves off as the voice of your respective nations when in fact you're nothing more than just another opinion, read left-wing newspapers and rant about the "facts" presented therein as if they were god's own truth, and that anyone who sees otherwise is merely an ass-kissing pro-american asshole, and not have anyone correct you, you've come to the wrong board.

Been fun.

*edit - Oh wait. I am a pro-American asshole. And er.. For the "Marquis" to be a female nick it'd have to have an "e" on the end.

you live in queensland dont you?

did you vote for pualine?

wouldnt surprse me, the right wing makes me sick, kill your children, kill your parents because the money is MINE

Ah, yes. I'm am pro-American asshole, so I must live in Queensland and vote for Pauline Hanson, kill my children, kill my parents, and take all their money.

More "facts" from the peanut gallery.

if you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen


unfortunatly for you the left IS the majority as can be clearly shown by the fact that the states all have labor goverments, this shows that the MAJORITY of elections have gone to the left not the right

did you know that for the first time EVER places like pharan, moohrallbark (my electrate), baswater (i can keep going) are in the hands of labor?

these were all SAFE libral seats and labor now holds power, WHY?

cause bracks is doing a good job?

i like him but i dont think thats it

so why?

as i asked before WHY are the libral back benchers almost to the point of revolt and why can no one find costello?

you can ignore the questions but they wont go away

the right is dead, at least for the time being and good ridance, its time we looked after eachother and that is what the left stands for

I do mostly ignore those questions, because they have little bearing on anything. You seem to see Australian political parties as representing some sort of extremes, but they simply don't. Historically, they both swing from centre-ish, to middle right or left.

People voting Labor did so before Iraq came to be a crisis point in most states, Asguard. They didn't do it because they didn't want to go bomb Iraq... they did it because they thought Labor was going to give them a better deal at home. Or are you trying to tell me that the state Labor governments campaigned on a "no aussies in Iraq" platform?

Australia might well be shifting to the left. It wouldn't surprise me. current opinion would seem to be a about 50-50 on the Iraq situation though.. A couple of polls have been posted, one of them would indicate it's sliding to the pro-US stance a little more. But then.. I have no faith in polls anyway. We'll know for sure one way or another when the next election comes up. By then, the left might have pandered to anti-US sentiment enough to actually win it. Again, I would not be surprised.

This :
as i asked before WHY are the libral back benchers almost to the point of revolt and why can no one find costello?

I did actually answer you.

And as for your kitchen comment.. I'm not shying away from anything. I also don't cry when someone insults me, because you see I believe in free speech. I've heard you say that you don't believe in free speech because it can hurt people... so, well.. pots and kettles, and all that. I can just imagine your poor little soul laughing with glee thinking you're putting any kind of heat on me.

Yo Marky!

I know your not an arsehole and I'm going to be so kind as to help you prove it:)
I want to ask you a simple question. I'll even give you some info to help you along.
Lets talk about George. As I'm sure you already know;

George gained the Presidency when he took Florida by a massive 537 votes, but thats a long story for another day.

He had the largest campaign fund ever. $190 million, $115 million of that from just 700 individuals. Thats a major investment!

George admits that he used to "drink to much" and "realized that alcohol was beginning to crowd out my energies and could crowed, eventually, my affections for other people". I won't even mention his arrest for drink/driving. Fuck it yes I will. When asked about it George said it was "in my youth". George was in his thirties at the time.....

Mind you Dick Chaney has been busted twice for DUI so I guess George is driving...

Georges other two arrests were dull in comparison. One for disorderly conduct and one for stealing Christmas decorations as a college prank.

Marky still with me? How many people you know been arrested 3 times?

When asked in 1999 about alleged cocaine abuse he said he had committed "no felonies in the last 25 years". Hmmm

Perhaps I shouldn't be so personal. A mans entitled to a private life I mean I cherish mine. All the more since I heard about the Patriot act. Lets look at Georges political achievements, that after all is how we should judge him.

George has;

Cut funding for advanced pediatric training by £35 million (remember now that Detroit has a higher child mortality rate than Tripoli)

Cut $200 million from programmes that provide child care to low income familiies.

Cut $15.7 million from programmes dealing with child abuse and neglect.

Cut funding for research into cleaner more efficient cars

Pulled out of Kyoto

Cut half a billion dollars from the enviromental protection budget.

Abandoned an election pledge to reduce CO2 emissions.

Proposed selling of oil and gas rights in the Alaska wildlife preserve.

Pushed through a tax cut, 43% of which goes to the wealthiest 1%.

Announced plans to allow oil drilling in Montana's Lewis and Clark national park.

Enough! I could go on but I won't. Maybe George has good reasons for doing what he does. Lets see what he has to say.

"And I know something about being a government. And you've got a good one."
Source: FDCH Political Transcripts, "Remarks by the President at Arkansas Welcome, Northwest Arkansas Regional Airport," Nov. 4, 2002

"The solid truth of the matter is, when you find—if you want to help heal the hurt, if you want to you hurt people—help people in pain, the best way to do so is to call upon the great strength of the country, which is the compassion of our fellow Americans."
Source: FDCH Political Transcripts, "George W. Bush Delivers Remarks," Nov. 4, 2002

"I was proud the other day when both Republicans and Democrats stood with me in the Rose Garden to announce their support for a clear statement of purpose, "You disarm, or we will.'":D
—Bush, speaking about Saddam Hussein Source: FDCH Political Transcripts, "George W. Bush Delivers Remarks at a Sununu for Senate Fundraiser," Oct. 5, 2002

"I promise you I will listen to what has been said here, even though I wasn't here."
Source: PR Newswire, "Remarks by the President at the Economic Forum Health Care Security Session," Aug. 13, 2002

"You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test."
Source: ABCnews.com, Feb. 21, 2001

"Do you have blacks, too?"
Bush, speaking to Brazilian President Fernando Henrique Cardoso

And my favourite....

"A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it."
Source: BusinessWeek Online, July 27, 2001

There's more but my tanks are empty. All the above information is freely available in the public domain. Even George himself won't deny a word of it. Now it's time to move on.

I get to ask a question remember, here goes;

Why do you trust a word this man says and how can you consider supporting his goverment at a time in history when the stakes are so high and the motivations so suspect?

There's you question. It's not an American question, just a George question. The people of America deserve better and thats what their friends are telling them.


Moderator edit - insulting other members is unnecessary

Hey look! I got friends!
look over here... (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17308)

Yo Goofy!
I wasn't insulting anyone in particular. It's an open question.
I prefer to think of it as the arsehole test:)

Will watch my posts in future
Dee Cee

250 000 in melbourne

i rest my case

Dee Cee...

I appreciate all the time and effort you put into that epic post, but you see there's one little thing you didn't seemed to understand. I'm pro-American, but not pro Bush. I don't like him trerribly much.

Sorry about all that wasted time.

Asguard :

150,000 bleating sheep aren't my concern, nor is your case proven in any way. And you could at least get your numbers right, everything I've heard ranges from 120,000 - 150,000, not a quarter of a million. Appealing to the masses doesn't impress me in any way, I still refer to trust my own opinion.

I'm not exactly sure what the big deal is here.

People have been known to say things, sometimes these things run contrary to things other people have said. . . somehow life magicaly goes on.

Marquis, we appreciate our Aussie friends.

I still refer to trust my own opinion. So does Saddam Hussein. Does that make him right too?

Of course not. He couldn't possibly be right, because I don't agree with him on anything at all, and if I'm always right then he can't be. ;)

I can't find a knitting pattern large enough for your new sized head :wink

i think YOU need to get your numbers right

200 000 was the estamate when i was THERE (ie they said it over the PA)

250 000 was reported on channel 7 (i THINK i was watching 7)

nova news reported almost a 1/4 of a millon (yes i know they are the same, i was using the same words they did)

Ah but Asquard. AS we have just been told, Marquis(e) knows everything.

That's why (s)he needs a new hat.

dont you just LOVE the way people dismiss evidance they are wrong?

YOUR the minority

get over it

Dear Asguard, there was an article in the NZHerald today, and as of yet, there is no URL to it on the site. But its in the Review and World section, and is by Graham Reid, entitled "You don't tell and ausie what to do."

It gives the result of an unscientific poll, which found only 2 out of 301 people polled supported the war with Iraq.

It also went into some of the stuff you were talking about, but in a lot more detail, and basically said that the vast majority of Australians considered Colin Powell's presentation to the UN about as convincing as John Howards "children overboard" evidence, and that they think that John Howard is taking the country for a ride, because he wants his name in historical lights alongside Blair and Bush, and American gratitude resulting in preferential free trade rights.

It also quotes Major General Alan Stretton (retired) a former deputy director of the Joint Intelligence Bureau and member of the National Intelligence Agency, saying that he is unconvinced by the veracity of US intelligence reports:I can't forget that the American excuse for sending troops into Vietnam was that the US destroyer Maddox had been attacked by two North Vietnamese patrol boats in the gulf of Tonkin. This statement by the US President was subsequently admitted to have been false."

....It would be unwise to underestimate how memories of the Vietnam conflict lie behind the present debate. ....Australia had conscription during the Vietnam period and many veterans remember how Australia followed, or was cajoled into joining, the United States on those killing fields. Vietnam veterans identify themselves as such when speaking out.

But it's half a page, and covers a lot. Must say that I wouldn't have read it, unless I had seen your posts...

the problem is we cant apeal to john howard

its to the libral party the protest must go

see little johnny can ignore the public, not because hes brave or hoping or anything, but because hes retiring and his successor be he from either side of politics is so oposed to howards policys

all the public can hope for is one of 3 things

1) a back bencher revolt and a change of PM, to costello

2) the govonor genral sacking the PM and asking labor to form a minority goverment till the next election

3) a injunction in the high court caused by war crimes charges against howard

i dont know what procedure is required for the last 2, so we must hope that costello grabs control, but he is smart and wont unless he has to because it will tare him in the next election if he cant get the troops home quick enough

i dont know what will happen but i can hope that the libral party will act in its own intrests and remove howard

Originally posted by Asguard
i think YOU need to get your numbers right

200 000 was the estamate when i was THERE (ie they said it over the PA)


Ah yes, so in spite of the newspaper reports, the internet news and all the rest of it saying otherwise, you prefer to believe it was 250,000 because "they said it over the PA" while you were there. One can only assume they had someone counting you all... did they issue you with little punch cards as you entered Melbourne? Did you get all excited, and feel powerful because you were a part of something so big? Did it give you a little bit of a rush, knowing that in being a part of something bigger than yourself you were not an insignificant little mite anymore? Almost feel like you could have lynched Howard and gotten away with it?
Do you understand the power of the mob now? The back door, the side entrance, the compensation for being so small? If you'd had the proverbial AK, would you have fired it in the air in jubilation?

I'm going to find it rather easy to sleep at night in the coming weeks. In spite of my grave misgivings as to the direction our country is heading in, I have plenty of sheep to count....

The number is largely irrelevant, anyway. I will go as far as saying that it does indicate that there are a huge number of people who subscribe to slave morality, but then that wouldn't make much of an impact on you, because I doubt you understand the concept to begin with.

Bah... enough. Wasted words.

Yo Marky!
Don't stress about the post it was a cut and paste bonanza!
Perhaps you missed the point (and I tried so hard).
The "George" mentioned in my post is George Bush. You know the president of the old U.S.A. The man who decides Americas foreign policy, domestic policy, defence policy ect. By all accounts, this crook actually leads the country!
The same country that leads you and sways you to war.
Go figure.
But I got to admit it.
Sometimes seems that your flock is even bigger than mine.

Baaa!
Dee Cee

Surely a man so... malleable.. Doesn't actually decide American foreign policy.

Who is it really?

The point is..
It's not anybody you will ever know or ever meet.
Whoever runs America today, be it George or otherwise, does not care about you or give a toss if you live or die.
To support Americas position is to offer support to these people.
Why would you want to do that?

Why? Simply because the result of America's point of view, the results for me, the people I care about, and (If you subscribe to this point of view) my descendants, depend upon them "winning".
Because in an American world, I can say this without worrying about when they're coming for me.

That's why.

Because in an American world, I can say this without worrying about when they're coming for me.

Thats just what Saddam was saying 15 years ago. Of course he's out of favour now.
They may never come for you but they are always out for someone.
Enjoy your peace and freedom. Eat out. Buy a new SUV (I'm sure you deserve one) and when you want to stretch your mind with dose of political insight, you will always have CNN to remind you how lucky you are to be a friend of the USA.
Just remember to stay employed and in good health. Support America whenever they ask and you should be ok.

Ignorance is always easier.
Dee Cee

Originally posted by DeeCee
Thats just what Saddam was saying 15 years ago. Of course he's out of favour now.

Not sure of your point here. I don't rely on what I'm told, I rely on the results I see. So far, I havent been arrested for saying "Bush is a monkeyman", but from what I've heard Iraq is about 98% behind their leader. Knowing human nature, there's something very, very, wrong there.

Most of you would prefer to leave it that way, because if you do anything about it, it means you might have to go overseas and get shot or something. What is presented here as "anti-war" protesting is sometimes little more than "please don't hurt me, I don't care what you do to anyone else as long as you leave me alone".

They may never come for you but they are always out for someone.

If they're not out for me, who would they be out for? Define the target. "Dissenters" isn't good enough. There are plenty of those, and yet they're still free to dissent.

And vote.

Enjoy your peace and freedom. Eat out. Buy a new SUV (I'm sure you deserve one)

I do. every day. Dunno about the SUV, though. I've lived in places where a 4WD was essential for getting out and doing my own thing, but even then had another vehicle handy for practical purposes - like shopping for the forty different varieties of coffee I might want. I don't live there anymore though, and no longer have any need for a 4WD, regardless of what my TV likes to tell me sometimes.

My peace and freedom has come at a price, in the past. Too many forget that.

and when you want to stretch your mind with dose of political insight, you will always have CNN to remind you how lucky you are to be a friend of the USA.

We get CNN in Australia, as far as I'm aware (not watching TV overly much personally), but I don't use it as a source of information. Someone always uses this argument, and fail to realise that all I have to do to know how lucky I am is look around me. TV is completely unneccesary.

There are two types of people in the world.. those who come to a conclusion based on what they're told, and those who come to a conclusion based on what they see, and analyse. Always be careful to use arguments pertaining to the one you're addressing, if you're capable of recognising them. There are members on this board who have my respect regardless of whether their viewpoint differs from mine or not... and there are those who deserve little more than invective, or being ignored. In all honesty, sometimes I like to play with them too. I take my amusement from a few different sources.

Just remember to stay employed and in good health. Support America whenever they ask and you should be ok.

As to supporting the US whenever they ask... you're assuming too much. I'll support them as long as they continue to provide me with the freedom to lead the lifestyle I prefer.

Well, no, I retract that. I'm Australian, so the US really doesn't provide anything beyond what we trade with them for. Except of course, the comfort of knowing they're there. If I have a good long sniff, they don't come up smelling of roses. In fact, sometimes there's an odour there I don't like at all. In spite of that, the alternative is truly frightening.

Now, if you were to ask me "better the devil you know, in other words?" I'd be forced to ponder. I've done that many times, and every time the answer has been yes. The evidence for that is all around me, every day. The USA can be a devil, at times. But in all instances it's one I recognise, and understand. I also have the comfort of knowing that in spite of the fact that they might sometimes do questionable things, I will in most cases know about them, and have the opportunity to be heard if I disagree.

And therein lies the problem... being deprived of that comfort by fools who can't see anything beyond their own noses. Sometimes, the cowherds border on being incompetent, and don't have any control over the herd. In those times, we're all in danger of being trampled.

Ignorance is always easier.

Yes, it is. I don't see too much of it here on these boards, but you do get the odd exception. Here, in this microcosm, "Ignorance" is usually a term used by those who see anyone applying the information (or lack of it) they receive in a manner different from what they would. I'm guilty of it myself, but then I believe I'm not so blind as some, and more to the point recognise my own hypocrasy in a lot of cases where others don't. You'd find it very difficult to sting me, because I do it to myself with more knowledge than you'll ever have. Those I consider fools usually know exactly who they are. Those I don't will get some form of reasonable argument, when I consider it worth my time.

Originally posted by Coldrake
Marquis, we appreciate our Aussie friends.

What, even the ones like me? I've just sobered up now after a night of drunken posting. I'll figure out what I wrote in the morning, but I'm sure I'm going to have said a few things I might regret ;)

Ah, truly a marquis of piss.