personally i am not religious, i belong to no religious group i am very spiritual though, i study eastern philosophy and train in many forms of martial arts for the past 17 years, and ive just realised something, there must be a higher form of existance or nothing would be here, there must be a source in the universe/universes that is the main key to life and existance itself, without using the concept of a higher form of energy leading and guiding the rules of the universe, there cannot be anything, something cant come from nothing, so there must have always been something here, a form of energy thats infinate that created and controls everything, think about it with science you cannot explain anything if you look closely, you can say what does what and analyze things and give reasons for there bieng here, but it cannot explain why there is existance of any form if you took away all the stars particals matter and everything in existance in the known universe, there would still be the empty space there when you remove everything so there has always been something here, yes there might have been a big bang and all of that, but there was already something here to begin with otherwise there would hae been no energy build up that created the bang, also time does not exist atall infact it is just a notion humans made up to measure there small physical life spans, and time is actually irrelevant to the creation of existance atall, because as tme is infinate it actually contradicts itself, TIME=TIMELESS so infact if time is timeless it does not exist the only thing that does exist is existance itself,



peace

EmptyForceOfChi:

personally i am not religious, i belong to no religious group i am very spiritual though, i study eastern philosophy and train in many forms of martial arts for the past 17 years, and ive just realised something, there must be a higher form of existance or nothing would be here,

Why must there be?

there must be a source in the universe/universes that is the main key to life and existance itself, without using the concept of a higher form of energy leading and guiding the rules of the universe, there cannot be anything, something cant come from nothing, so there must have always been something here, a form of energy thats infinate that created and controls everything,

Controls consciously or not? Have you checked out my "Prince James Argument for the Existence of God"?

think about it with science you cannot explain anything if you look closely, you can say what does what and analyze things and give reasons for there bieng here, but it cannot explain why there is existance of any form if you took away all the stars particals matter and everything in existance in the known universe, there would still be the empty space there when you remove everything so there has always been something here

Actually, there is no such thing as "empty space".

also time does not exist atall infact it is just a notion humans made up to measure there small physical life spans,

Not supported by the facts. Time is a measurable dimension of space. It's the 4th.

and time is actually irrelevant to the creation of existance atall, because as tme is infinate it actually contradicts itself, TIME=TIMELESS so infact if time is timeless it does not exist the only thing that does exist is existance itself,

If time is infinite, it doesn't "contradict itself", it only allows for there to be an infinite progression, nothing more, nothing less.

but where is the proof that time exists, what is time? isnt this just a human notion to measure lenths and durations of events and sequences.


if you would read what i said then the question you asked me about "why must there be" i already said why

i ddnt mention anything about conciously maybe maybe not,

about empty space let me explain something, you cannot expand into something that isnt already there, the universe cannot just expand into somthing that isnt there creatine existance as it travels along,

yes time is measurable to humans, time does not exist it isnt a force it isnt an energy it has no atoms, it has no signs of existance whatsoever, it is a concept yes, it is a notion yes, but it doesent actually exist, and it never will exist,


its just a number it dosent exist it is just something we use to calculate things in human terms. i just counted to 10, but this doent exist its jsut a thought, if this exists then so does everything i imagine like some fantasy world.


could you not just say things about what i said without giving any actual evidence to disprove my statement.

Time exists as a principle, like the principle of cause and effect or principles of morality or laws of physics, etc. It is a function. It is intangible and does not have a physical existence, but its existence can be observed in the interaction of physical things. It is an abstract existence.

are you saying that time did not exist before the big bang? and time itself had a birthday? before the big bang happend science believes that there was an energy build up that created the big bang correct? so as time hasnt spawned into existance yet how would you measure the period of time when the energy particles were building up before the bang? so infact time must have existed bforehand or there could be no energy build up r anything for that matter, wich again is saying in my favour that time is infact timeless so it dosent exist, it only exists if existance itself actually will come to an end, wich it never will, because it never began to begin with. time is a human concept it isnt actually there. think about it people.



peace

EmptyForceOfChi:

but where is the proof that time exists, what is time? isnt this just a human notion to measure lenths and durations of events and sequences.

Time: Atomic motion as determined by gravity, speed, or temperature. Moreover, it isn't -just- human. All sorts of animals measure time. Time is also inherent in entropy.

if you would read what i said then the question you asked me about "why must there be" i already said why

You did not verify this claim fully. Do so.

i ddnt mention anything about conciously maybe maybe not,

Then how did the higher force create?

about empty space let me explain something, you cannot expand into something that isnt already there, the universe cannot just expand into somthing that isnt there creatine existance as it travels along,

Yes, this is certainly so.

yes time is measurable to humans, time does not exist it isnt a force it isnt an energy it has no atoms, it has no signs of existance whatsoever, it is a concept yes, it is a notion yes, but it doesent actually exist, and it never will exist,

See above.

Moreover, if you assert that motion exists, you assert that time does. Motion is required for time.

its just a number it dosent exist it is just something we use to calculate things in human terms. i just counted to 10, but this doent exist its jsut a thought, if this exists then so does everything i imagine like some fantasy world.

Thought doesn't exist? So how do you think it?

beyondtimeandspace :

Time exists as a principle, like the principle of cause and effect or principles of morality or laws of physics, etc. It is a function. It is intangible and does not have a physical existence, but its existence can be observed in the interaction of physical things. It is an abstract existence.

See my reply based on atomic motion and motion in general.

EmptyForceOfChi:



Time: Atomic motion as determined by gravity, speed, or temperature. Moreover, it isn't -just- human. All sorts of animals measure time. Time is also inherent in entropy.


You did not verify this claim fully. Do so.



Then how did the higher force create?



Yes, this is certainly so.



See above.

Moreover, if you assert that motion exists, you assert that time does. Motion is required for time.


Thought doesn't exist? So how do you think it?

beyondtimeandspace :



See my reply based on atomic motion and motion in general.






could you show actual evidence of this not just theorys assumptions and calculations, like some hard evidence of time existing in atom or energy form

there must be a main energy source in the universe, because how could anything come to existance without bieng created by something else, this means something has always existed in some form, (the only form of energy that actually exists)



do you mean how was the higher force created? if so then obviously i dont know niether do you or any human, we will never know the answer to what came first chicken or the egg, not in this physicle plain of existance anyway. but i can have a good think about it while meditating thats when i think best. even though most of the time im supposed to be not thinking.



why is motion required for time? could you show me something more than calculations and theorys about this, some actual evidence (the type of evidence you would want to explain the existance of Qi)


could you please prove everything you claim with hard evidence, and can you prove that time is a real thing and not just a notion of the human or living mind, show me that time is as real as the gravity that i feel right now. jyst because things are moving dosent mean time is passing by, you believe in the theory of reletivity right? could you prove this?.

EmptyForceOfChi:

could you show actual evidence of this not just theorys assumptions and calculations, like some hard evidence of time existing in atom or energy form

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_physics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox

Moreover, refridgeration can be considered a form of time travel, as one is essentially slowing down the proceses that govern putrification by slowing the atomic motion of the atoms.

there must be a main energy source in the universe, because how could anything come to existance without bieng created by something else, this means something has always existed in some form, (the only form of energy that actually exists)

This is true enough, and I don't deny this, but you'll need to present more proofs of this.

do you mean how was the higher force created? if so then obviously i dont know niether do you or any human, we will never know the answer to what came first chicken or the egg, not in this physicle plain of existance anyway. but i can have a good think about it while meditating thats when i think best. even though most of the time im supposed to be not thinking.

Yes, whence cometh this higher force? And how does it create without being conscious? Or do you mean it produces things through its interaction on a non-conscious level, such as natural forces?

why is motion required for time? could you show me something more than calculations and theorys about this, some actual evidence (the type of evidence you would want to explain the existance of Qi)

See the above links. Not to mention that if something is moving, it at one time must have been somewhere else.

could you please prove everything you claim with hard evidence, and can you prove that time is a real thing and not just a notion of the human or living mind, show me that time is as real as the gravity that i feel right now. jyst because things are moving dosent mean time is passing by, you believe in the theory of reletivity right? could you prove this?.

See the aboev links.

Or do you mean it produces things through its interaction on a non-conscious level, such as natural forces?

nothing is completely unconscious!!!

a form of energy thats infinate that created and controls everything
The essential difference between eastern and western philosophy is that in the west, the universe is controlled and created (as if out of clay), and in the east, it grows out of it's own nature (like an apple from a tree), and although there is a balance, there is no control.

c7ityi_:

nothing is completely unconscious!!!

How not?

It's different in the East and in the West.

In the East, the "higher force" or "god" is the absolute truth, the orgin of existence, that is why it is causeless, because the absolute truth is causeless. The material world is not considered to have any basis of it's own because of it's ever-changing nature. For instance, in mathematics, 1+1=2, all of the time, it does not change day to day, therefore it's an actual truth. Whereas the material world constantly changes all of the time, so it is not the ultimate truth. Everything in the material world is governed by the absolute truth. This what Krsna teaches in Hinduism. I don't know if the Buddha teaches this, but I do know he teaches that the material world is like a mirage of something else.

What about hitting a bullseye on a dartboard whilst the dartboard is on the moon and you are on Earth? That's probably much more likely than a Big Bang (purely by accident) resulting in life, music, thoughts etc...

In that sense, there is a very compelling case for a 'higher existence'. But it is important that we don't try to second guess the motives of such a thing IF it exists, because that leads us down the dangerous road of religion.

VitalOne:

In the East, the "higher force" or "god" is the absolute truth, the orgin of existence, that is why it is causeless, because the absolute truth is causeless. The material world is not considered to have any basis of it's own because of it's ever-changing nature. For instance, in mathematics, 1+1=2, all of the time, it does not change day to day, therefore it's an actual truth. Whereas the material world constantly changes all of the time, so it is not the ultimate truth. Everything in the material world is governed by the absolute truth. This what Krsna teaches in Hinduism. I don't know if the Buddha teaches this, but I do know he teaches that the material world is like a mirage of something else.

You are certainly right about the Hindu conception, but I do believe in Buddhism nothing is considered eternal in an do itself.

KennyJC:

What about hitting a bullseye on a dartboard whilst the dartboard is on the moon and you are on Earth? That's probably much more likely than a Big Bang (purely by accident) resulting in life, music, thoughts etc...

Actually, I believe Stephen Hawking asserts the big bang had a 75 percent probability of happening and resulting in a universe like ours. Not to mention that even if such is not the case, there is a near infinite chance for the big bang to start in such conditions.

EmptyForceOfChi:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_physics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox

Moreover, refridgeration can be considered a form of time travel, as one is essentially slowing down the proceses that govern putrification by slowing the atomic motion of the atoms.



This is true enough, and I don't deny this, but you'll need to present more proofs of this.



Yes, whence cometh this higher force? And how does it create without being conscious? Or do you mean it produces things through its interaction on a non-conscious level, such as natural forces?



See the above links. Not to mention that if something is moving, it at one time must have been somewhere else.



See the aboev links.



james i read quite alot of those links you gave mem and i still dont actually see proof of time actually existing, i can post you things like that about Qi but that wouldent prove it exists to a westener would it, if you can invent me a time machine and then take me back in time and show me points in time actually exist like they were carved ins tone, then i would believe you, time does exist, but only as much as our thoughts exist, it dosent actually have any atoms, or force value, so again i will state its just a notion and concept to describe periods of events, just like i can get a tape measure and measure out 20 nches, yes 20 inches does exist to us, but it dosent have any atoms or force power like gravity does, or another force. do you understand?



peace

if you say time exists you must also be saying distance exists and numbers exists? another human tool to measure things,

you can record "the past" with a camera... doesn't it prove that time exists more than just a thought or memory?

Hi, EmptyForceOfChi

You make some good points. Here is an understanding of time from a vedic perctive.
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/3/11/en

Jan Ardena.

a camera can record past events yes ofcourse it can, but it still dosent prove time exists in any other form than a concept and notion to us. if time exists it must have come from something, but how can time be brought into existance without the thing that brought it here not bieng influenced by time, this is ludacris this infact means the thing that created time wasnt effected by time, and in turn this means that it could not create time because the actions of it would be "frozen in timeless existance" therefore couldent create anything atall, time exists to humans as a means to measure periods of chained events you throw ball from point A to point B the ball travelled to point B from point A you can measure the distance it travelled the time it took to travel there, the speed at wich it was travelling, but all 3 of those things do not exist, distance, speed, time, is all human concept and notion,



peace

ps i will read that link you provided soon thanks for that.

EmptyForceOfChi:

james i read quite alot of those links you gave mem and i still dont actually see proof of time actually existing, i can post you things like that about Qi but that wouldent prove it exists to a westener would it, if you can invent me a time machine and then take me back in time and show me points in time actually exist like they were carved ins tone, then i would believe you, time does exist, but only as much as our thoughts exist, it dosent actually have any atoms, or force value, so again i will state its just a notion and concept to describe periods of events, just like i can get a tape measure and measure out 20 nches, yes 20 inches does exist to us, but it dosent have any atoms or force power like gravity does, or another force. do you understand?

Yes, but "twenty inches", though arbitrary, actually does measure space, and space, like its twin, time, is something which is fundemental. Not to mention, once again, that if one can slow down time - which has been demonstrated to be so, through cecium clocks on the space shuttle and such - then how are you not seeing an actual proof of time?

Moreover, just otu of curiousity, what proofs of Qi do you have?

if you say time exists you must also be saying distance exists and numbers exists? another human tool to measure things,

Distance does exist, yes. Space is clearly existent. Moreover, whilst numbers do not have physical existence, they are rooted in things we observe, so they have existence in that way.

well ive been doing martial arts for 17 years roughly i pretty much prove its existance everytime i train, but this is only self proving, well and to friends family and my partner, she also didnt believe in qi untill the first time i took her to my taiji class, well the best "proof" qi has is the orgone generator, look up about orgone energy its the western term for Qi, also most skeptics of Qi havent actually been taught any methods , and those that have been taught were taught very poorly, Qi is fascinating, well not really to me anymore actually, its kinda run of the mill now, but it still interests me to progress further with my practise, and about the clock thing on the shuttle, i didnt hear of this explain in more details please man.



peace.

well ive been doing martial arts for 17 years roughly i pretty much prove its existance everytime i train, but this is only self proving, well and to friends family and my partner, she also didnt believe in qi untill the first time i took her to my taiji class, well the best "proof" qi has is the orgone generator, look up about orgone energy its the western term for Qi, also most skeptics of Qi havent actually been taught any methods , and those that have been taught were taught very poorly, Qi is fascinating, well not really to me anymore actually, its kinda run of the mill now, but it still interests me to progress further with my practise, and about the clock thing on the shuttle, i didnt hear of this explain in more details please man.

The problem with "Orgone energy" is the lack of experimental proof. Even Einstein, who was open to the idea, came to believe that the machines produced by the discoverer did not, in fact, demonstrate orgone energy, but could have been caused by convection currents. If the creator was a competant scientist, he would have developed a means to rule out convection or have sought another to help him with this. Furthermore, if you believe in Qi, and can work with it, you ought to be able to present a scientific experiment of this. For instance, do you have any special powers from it?

First off: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2005-07-29-space-station_x.htm

Now, let me explain a bit about this.

Atomic clocks use Cesium atoms to make extremely accurate clocks which tend to lose only one or two seconds every 60 million years. As Wikipedia notes:

Caesium is most notably used in atomic clocks, which are accurate to seconds in many thousands of years. Since 1967, the International System of Measurements bases its unit of time, the second, on the properties of caesium. SI defines the second as 9,192,631,770 cycles of the radiation which corresponds to the transition between two energy levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom.

Now, in General Relativity, gravity effects such things, so that one litterally has time hastened in less gravity and slowed in more gravity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Dilation

so your saying if people could live in higher gravity levels we would live our lives slower? and not just because we are all heavy and moving slow?.


and about the Qi experiments things yeah i would say it gives you certain "powers" ile check that out because i would love to find a way to prove Qi tot he west to get them to hurry up and acknowledge it in my lifetime and for the future.

hold on just a second this dosent prove time exists still, not to be dissrespectfull but just because a clock ticks slower it dosent mean time is making the clock tick just the force thats making it tick due to the effects of gravity and other factors, gravity and other forces are not time.

Naturally, magnetic fields can affect clocks and make them go slower but a clock is not time, it's matter. Gravity can't affect time itself, only the mind can since it's just a concept.

EmptyForceOfChi,

What makes you think matter is "real" and time is not?

Naturally, magnetic fields can affect clocks and make them go slower but a clock is not time, it's matter. Gravity can't affect time itself, only the mind can since it's just a concept.

EmptyForceOfChi,

What makes you think matter is "real" and time is not?

There is only one problem.Science has already shown that gravity truly affects space-time.Mind isn't concept.No concept lasts forever.Mind is the product of the brain-science has already shown it.
I truly don't know what the heck are you talking about.There is no eternal concept,it exists only in human heads.
Concepts are completely unnecesary for the entire universe.

There is only one problem.Science has already shown that gravity truly affects space-time.Mind isn't concept.No concept lasts forever.Mind is the product of the brain-science has already shown it.
I truly don't know what the heck are you talking about.There is no eternal concept,it exists only in human heads.
Concepts are completely unnecesary for the entire universe.

Gravage, while I agree with you, I must point out that science is also 'just' a concept as much as is 'mind'. Matter, in fact all forms of energy, do indeed exist in a very real manner, and would continue to do so in absence of any concept (i.e., if there were no humans to observe), but it's important to remember that one cannot merely appeal to science as justification for this. We created science as a methodology to describe and predict how energy "behaves". That is all.

I meant that time is a concept, it exists only in the mind so only the mind can affect the its flow.

The mind cannot be explained from matter... the mind is not the product of the brain, neurons or whatever... the brain, like all matter, is the product of the "mind"! (or self)

I meant that time is a concept, it exists only in the mind so only the mind can affect the its flow.

True. Without a mind, there is no time as we conceive it (or, at least, there is no possible way to prove this).

The mind cannot be explained from matter... the mind is not the product of the brain, neurons or whatever... the brain, like all matter, is the product of the "mind"! (or self)

Very wrong. The mind is a concept, pure and simple. Without the brain, there is no mind. The brain is a product of purely physical processes that has been explained and is well understood. What we call the mind (for those of us who use the term..) is, at best, a confused concept, usually used by those who fear the reduction of their sense of self, to a mere physical process.

hold on just a second this dosent prove time exists still, not to be dissrespectfull but just because a clock ticks slower it dosent mean time is making the clock tick just the force thats making it tick due to the effects of gravity and other factors, gravity and other forces are not time.Time isn't a force. Time is a dimension like space that matter/energy exist in. Neither time, nor space can be measured in the absence of matter/energy, in a very real sense they do not exist without matter and energy. Another way to think of it is that time and space are really measurements of matter and energy and not something in or of themselves.

~Raithere

Hey guys,

Time does not really exist at all. In Quantum Mechanics Electrons have no absolute position at all, and time has no factual barring on anything. In actuality, you have only been living one moment your entire life, since there is only one moment, the eternal moment of now.

The problem with "Orgone energy" is the lack of experimental proof. Even Einstein, who was open to the idea, came to believe that the machines produced by the discoverer did not, in fact, demonstrate orgone energy, but could have been caused by convection currents. If the creator was a competant scientist, he would have developed a means to rule out convection or have sought another to help him with this. Furthermore, if you believe in Qi, and can work with it, you ought to be able to present a scientific experiment of this. For instance, do you have any special powers from it?

First off: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2005-07-29-space-station_x.htm

Now, let me explain a bit about this.

Atomic clocks use Cesium atoms to make extremely accurate clocks which tend to lose only one or two seconds every 60 million years. As Wikipedia notes:

Caesium is most notably used in atomic clocks, which are accurate to seconds in many thousands of years. Since 1967, the International System of Measurements bases its unit of time, the second, on the properties of caesium. SI defines the second as 9,192,631,770 cycles of the radiation which corresponds to the transition between two energy levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom.

Now, in General Relativity, gravity effects such things, so that one litterally has time hastened in less gravity and slowed in more gravity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Dilation

Hey Prince James,

People say that Orgone energy doesn't exist but why do plants grow significantly faster in orgone accumulators (which by classical standards, should NOT cause plants to grow faster)? When Wilhelm Reich placed radium inside an orgone accumulator for a period of time, the entire place started glowing. I agree there are many problems with Wilhelm Reich's experiments, but conventional science cannot explain why the above happens.

Also, if Wilhelm Reich's orgone accumulator was completely fraudulent, and was nothing more than a box with steel wool and glass wool (by conventional science), then why would the FDA go as far as to BAN experimentation with animals using the orgone accumulator? If the orgone accumulator is fraudulent, then placing an animal inside of a fraudulent box would not do a thing, why would the FDA go so far? Why would the FDA completely destroy Wilhelm's Reich's books and works? If it's all BS, then not burning it would be beneficial because scientist would be able to proof his theories wrong...right?

I am able to manipulate Qi (Orgone), but what type of experiment (utilizing the scientific method) could I conduct that would actually prove that Qi exists?

EmptyForceOfChi:

so your saying if people could live in higher gravity levels we would live our lives slower? and not just because we are all heavy and moving slow?.

"Slower" when compared to our current inertial frame? Yes.

and about the Qi experiments things yeah i would say it gives you certain "powers" ile check that out because i would love to find a way to prove Qi tot he west to get them to hurry up and acknowledge it in my lifetime and for the future.

Tell me what sort of powers you have developed and I'll figure out an experiment that we can attempt to work with.

hold on just a second this dosent prove time exists still, not to be dissrespectfull but just because a clock ticks slower it dosent mean time is making the clock tick just the force thats making it tick due to the effects of gravity and other factors, gravity and other forces are not time.

Yet they -are-. Gravity litterally warps space itself, and by that, time.

c7ityi_:

Naturally, magnetic fields can affect clocks and make them go slower but a clock is not time, it's matter. Gravity can't affect time itself, only the mind can since it's just a concept.

Yet it isn't a concept. It is a physical reality.

I meant that time is a concept, it exists only in the mind so only the mind can affect the its flow.

The mind cannot be explained from matter... the mind is not the product of the brain, neurons or whatever... the brain, like all matter, is the product of the "mind"! (or self)

Once again you fall back to this fallacious belief. Don't you know that Crom is the creator of all? I have told you this.

VitalOne:

Time does not really exist at all. In Quantum Mechanics Electrons have no absolute position at all, and time has no factual barring on anything. In actuality, you have only been living one moment your entire life, since there is only one moment, the eternal moment of now.

Actually, electrons -do- have absolute positions, but we cannot know that position and momentum at the same time due to the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle. Also, time is required for motion, so if you assert that motion exists, you must also assert that time does. Do you assert that motion exists?

Hey Prince James,

Hello hello.

People say that Orgone energy doesn't exist but why do plants grow significantly faster in orgone accumulators (which by classical standards, should NOT cause plants to grow faster)? When Wilhelm Reich placed radium inside an orgone accumulator for a period of time, the entire place started glowing. I agree there are many problems with Wilhelm Reich's experiments, but conventional science cannot explain why the above happens.

If there is really anything at play here, then the best path is further scientific inquiry. What is often considered "out of the norm" can often be quite normal, but unforeseen. It'll take a lot to discover whether orgone is real or not, but if people are serious about it, they should do things just as seriously.

Also, if Wilhelm Reich's orgone accumulator was completely fraudulent, and was nothing more than a box with steel wool and glass wool (by conventional science), then why would the FDA go as far as to BAN experimentation with animals using the orgone accumulator? If the orgone accumulator is fraudulent, then placing an animal inside of a fraudulent box would not do a thing, why would the FDA go so far? Why would the FDA completely destroy Wilhelm's Reich's books and works? If it's all BS, then not burning it would be beneficial because scientist would be able to proof his theories wrong...right?

The FDA isn't a conspiracy organization, if that is what you're attempting to pronounce. Why the FDA burnt books, was because they were in violation of their mandates. Potentially harmful things can come about by the abuse of normal forces. The proliferation of pseudo-science is also counterproductive to the FDA's mission of public safety.

I am able to manipulate Qi (Orgone), but what type of experiment (utilizing the scientific method) could I conduct that would actually prove that Qi exists?

You'll have to tell me more for me to ebe able to frame an experiment around it. Might you tell me the details?

Prince_James,

You've made a number of excellent points, however, there is one mistake:



... Also, time is required for motion, so if you assert that motion exists, you must also assert that time does. Do you assert that motion exists? ...


This is incorrect. Time is not required for motion. Motion is nothing but relocation in space. It is our limited ability to perceive non-macrotic scale energetic change that forces us to apply the concept 'time' onto this relocation.

prince james, have you heard of Qi cultivation? gathering? or a Qi ball? or Qi brush stroke technique?, i can show you an experiment to do for yourself and others to try also,

stand upright have your eyes closed or open but if there closed your more subjectable to your touch and feel sense, because your sight is not bieng used, but eyes open is fine also, anyways just relax yourself and concerntrate on your breathing, hand motions gathering Qi and directing it dosent work without correct breathing, whe you take in a breath DO NOT breath with your chest, breath into your stomach filling it out with the energy in your tantien, as your breath out contract your stomach get used to regulating your breaths with this method instead of the chest way, then once you have grasped the correct way to breath, place your hands out infront of your lower stomach just below your navel, have open palms curve your hands about 5 inches apart imagine a ball of energy in your hands, move your hands around in a circular motion imagining the ball rolling in your hands mimmick the exact movements with your hands as if there was a real ball between them, each time you move your hands your whole body must move in the direction of the limb that moved, do this untill you find your center, then once you feel the ball in your hands, move your hands further apart and continue doing the ball movements, you can do this with a partner both create a Qi ball then without breaking the connection of your balls combine them standing opposite each other, and both you and your partner has to controlt he Qi ball,


once you can direct qi from your tantian into your hands making it flow through your bodyparts using breathing methods like this, get your left hand and hold it out infront of you like its a canvas or piece of paper, then get your right hands index finger about 2-3 inches away from your open palm and do air brushing over your palm, making sure its very slow and no wind can be felt fromt he finger to palm, imagine energy flowing from your finger onto your palm canvas, do this for a few minuets incorperating the breathing methods through the stomach and in sync with your movements, then move the finger further away as you get better at it, after you learn these 2 basic excersizes look up more tot ry on google or something, or ask me for tips i will gladely help, by the way some may not feel the effects straight away, it all depends on how strong your individual Qi level is, the younger you are the better as it is better to start practising Qi training at an early age.



there are ways to detect Qi movements use a heat detector on someone who is doing Taiji (tai chi) training, and you can see it perfectly,


peace

Glaucon:

This is incorrect. Time is not required for motion. Motion is nothing but relocation in space. It is our limited ability to perceive non-macrotic scale energetic change that forces us to apply the concept 'time' onto this relocation.

If something is to relocate from one position or another, it cannot do so instanteneously. The motion itself requires prior existence in positions adjacent to it, and even if our notion of motion largely focuses on the macroscopic bodies which we are often acquainted with, this is not invalidated on any scale known, nor should it be violated on any scale, I'd say, considering the ubiquity of space. We must also consider the direction of thermodynamics as indicative of time.

EmptyForceOfChi:

prince james, have you heard of Qi cultivation? gathering? or a Qi ball? or Qi brush stroke technique?, i can show you an experiment to do for yourself and others to try also,

I am aware of such things, but have never seen: 1. Proof of it working. 2. Anyone manifesting measurable things.

The heat detection from Qi has been related, by the way, to simply body temperature, which is related to metabolism, which seemingly can be impacted slightly through visualization. But as regards this technique, what will I be able to cultivate this to impact physical change on a significant level?

well i dont know about what kind of equipment you can get hold of for experimental use, but you see when doing a Qi ball or when i create a Qi ball big enough to fit around someones entire body, the person under the Qi ball feels something very unnusual, so i was thinking there must be some kind of scientific devise to measure energy around the Qi concerntrated area, if you know of any devise that can pick up energy readings or pick up changes in energy or soemthing of this nature, tell me of the devise i will see if i have access to it, then i will conduct an experiment to try and get soem actual scientific acknowledgement, im willing to put effort into this as its important to me,


peace.

go to each one of these sites then tell me it dosent have scientific properties to analyse. :)



http://www.wilhelmreichmuseum.org/04_04_update.html


http://www.rocknroll.force9.co.uk/science/cloudbusting.html


http://www.orgonics.com/humorac.htm


http://www.orgone.org/requipment/oracs/orgonacc01a.htm



or you could do it the old fashion way with Taiji (tai chi) or other internal arts Bagua. there are 2 other energies jing and shen that western science will stumble upon sooner or later, they will most likely be called ironide and ortizmilic energy but yeah Qi Shen and Jing need to be in balence not just Qi (prana/Chi/orgone) energys. the west will catch up soon witht he natural way and improve it with tech.


peace

EmptyForceOfChi:

As regards to Qi stuff, I'd suggest three things: 1. A Geiger Counter. 2. An EM counter. 3. A digital thermometre.

As regards the websites you give me: Considering one has a dinky image from MS paint for an example of it, and the rest speak about unverified things...Again, if such things work, why don't they go to -real- institutions and get -real- tests done? If this ever got scientific approval, it'd win the Nobel prize. No scientist in his right mind would not want to be part of that.

Yet it isn't a concept. It is a physical reality.

Explain. Show evidence.

Once again you fall back to this fallacious belief. Don't you know that Crom is the creator of all? I have told you this.

The four winds created everything (I seriously believe this). I don't think Crom is such a good explanation for the power which created everything.

VitalOne:
Actually, electrons -do- have absolute positions, but we cannot know that position and momentum at the same time due to the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle. Also, time is required for motion, so if you assert that motion exists, you must also assert that time does. Do you assert that motion exists?


According to the superstring theory electrons have no absolute location. There are 10,11, or 26 dimensions. If you're talking about Planck constant, then still electrons have no absolute, determinable location.

Time isn't required for motion. Time doesn't actually exist. We percieve change through our memory (thus creating the illusions of past, present, and future), if we actually saw the true state of things, everything would be infinitely happening all at once. For instance, if you wave your hand back and forth, you would percieve the change through your memory, and thus percieve time.


The FDA isn't a conspiracy organization, if that is what you're attempting to pronounce. Why the FDA burnt books, was because they were in violation of their mandates. Potentially harmful things can come about by the abuse of normal forces. The proliferation of pseudo-science is also counterproductive to the FDA's mission of public safety.

Come on man...if I just made up a fraudulent magic box, and you already banned the use of it, why would go so far as to ban experimentation on it? It's fraudulent right...so why ban experimentation? The FDA is a money making organization...perhaps they were threatened by Wilhelm Reich's technology.


You'll have to tell me more for me to ebe able to frame an experiment around it. Might you tell me the details?
Well, make it simple, because I can't access 1,000 people or anything like that. I can move Qi, heal (even from any distance), etc...but nonetheless since Qi is pre-atomic energy, what type of experiment can possibly prove with 100% certainty that it exists?

c7ityi_:

Explain. Show evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Relativity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Relativity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_physics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic_%28general_relativity%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Clock

The four winds created everything (I seriously believe this). I don't think Crom is such a good explanation for the power which created everything.

Does not the striving that Crom put into our hearts relate back to the Will to Power inherent in life? Moreover, if you rest simply on him, to avoid that anti-life attitude, Crom will send you doom! He is the perfect God.

VitalOne:

According to the superstring theory electrons have no absolute location. There are 10,11, or 26 dimensions. If you're talking about Planck constant, then still electrons have no absolute, determinable location.

Superstring theory has not been verified, and by the very fact that it relies on actual existence of extra dimensions, I think shall in manyways invalidate it in the end. Moreover, I have found this snippet from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrons to validate my point of absolute position:

The exact momentum and position of an electron cannot be simultaneously determined. This is a limitation described by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, which, in this instance, simply states that the more accurately we know a particle's position, the less accurately we can know its momentum and vice versa.

Time isn't required for motion. Time doesn't actually exist. We percieve change through our memory (thus creating the illusions of past, present, and future), if we actually saw the true state of things, everything would be infinitely happening all at once. For instance, if you wave your hand back and forth, you would percieve the change through your memory, and thus percieve time.

Several objections:

1. If our memory perceives time, then surely it must exist.

2. The articles on current scientific theories as presented to C7 imply that you are very wrong on the "time is illusion" subject.

3. Again, the notion of motion. A thing cannot be in two different places, in the same way, at the same time, specifically if these distances are vastly seperated.

4. You provide no evidence to support your notion that everything happens at the same time, and indeed, will have to support much to invalidate what is apparently the true reality of time and motion, as seen by us, and all creatures, every second of waking existence.

Come on man...if I just made up a fraudulent magic box, and you already banned the use of it, why would go so far as to ban experimentation on it? It's fraudulent right...so why ban experimentation? The FDA is a money making organization...perhaps they were threatened by Wilhelm Reich's technology.

Human experimentation has rigid protocols in the FDA. This is to avoid massive abuses of what could be horrific experiment results. Moreover, the FDA is -not- a money making organization, it is a -federal- organization.

Well, make it simple, because I can't access 1,000 people or anything like that. I can move Qi, heal (even from any distance), etc...but nonetheless since Qi is pre-atomic energy, what type of experiment can possibly prove with 100% certainty that it exists?

Define "move Qi". Moreover, to what extent can you heal? Can you heal open wounds? Can you heal specific wounds?

im actually in the process of making a cloudbuster a orgone accumilator, and a HHG (holy hand grenade) i will conduct reichs experiments for him and do it in secret then get the info out everywhere before the government can burn m works also, and i am aware that there is bad orgone energy (dead orgone)and good orgone energy, bad and good qi exist and these machines can also have drawbacks and give the opperator mass amounts of dead orgone wich can drain your life force, but the HHG unit has no bad effects i will show everyone how to construct a HHG soon when i gather more info. james you want proof? i will give you real proof create an orgone accumilator a HHG and a cloudbuster i will do the same, i will do experiments then guide you with yours from here, then you can assess the results and get your proof.


would you give it a try princejames? there not hard to make no electronics just a few materials what do you say?, you did say your open to experiments wanna give this a try man?


i have blueprints on how to build all 3 of the devises, as a scientific community shouldent we conduct real indipendant experiments of our own? and see results for ourselves?

peace

VitalOne:



Superstring theory has not been verified, and by the very fact that it relies on actual existence of extra dimensions, I think shall in manyways invalidate it in the end. Moreover, I have found this snippet from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrons to validate my point of absolute position:

The exact momentum and position of an electron cannot be simultaneously determined. This is a limitation described by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, which, in this instance, simply states that the more accurately we know a particle's position, the less accurately we can know its momentum and vice versa.

Firstly, the superstring theory explains many other theories and is widely gaining acceptance.

Secondly, you say that electrons have an absolute position, but you also say that the absolute position can never ever be determined....so what proof is there that electrons do indeed have absolute positions, if you can never ever determine it? There seems to be a logical fallacy.


Several objections:

1. If our memory perceives time, then surely it must exist.

No, the perception of time would exist, not time itself. Your memory exists in the eternal moment of now, giving the illusion of time.


2. The articles on current scientific theories as presented to C7 imply that you are very wrong on the "time is illusion" subject.

Time does not flow, there is no movement of time. The past, present, and future all exist at the sametime. The double-slit experiment shows that the present can effect the past, and vice-versa. This further illustrates how the idea of time is simply an illusion. Remembering gives to the illusion of the past, and anticipation to the illusion of the future.


3. Again, the notion of motion. A thing cannot be in two different places, in the same way, at the same time, specifically if these distances are vastly seperated.

Actually, in Quantum Mechanics, a particle can be in two (or more) places at once.


4. You provide no evidence to support your notion that everything happens at the same time, and indeed, will have to support much to invalidate what is apparently the true reality of time and motion, as seen by us, and all creatures, every second of waking existence.

I have evidence. It's called superposition. To quote wikipedia, "In quantum mechanics, if the outcome of an event has not been observed, it exists in a state of superposition, which is being in all possible states at once"

This further validates everything I've said about time having no factual basis.


Human experimentation has rigid protocols in the FDA. This is to avoid massive abuses of what could be horrific experiment results. Moreover, the FDA is -not- a money making organization, it is a -federal- organization.

Well ok, if you insist that imprisoning Reich, burning his books, banning experimentation, and even destroying all use of the word 'orgone' was simply normal then you must be insane. The FDA hasn't banned much more dangerous experimentation on animals...why were they picking on Wilhelm Reich so much?


Define "move Qi". Moreover, to what extent can you heal? Can you heal open wounds? Can you heal specific wounds?
I can [try] to heal almost anything. I can move Qi around my body.

Vitalone, please post in the thread "Orgone energy independant experiments" would you maybe help me and take part in a few simple tests at home?.


peace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Relativity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Relativity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_physics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic_%28general_relativity%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Clock

None of that convinces me that time is a physical reality.

Does not the striving that Crom put into our hearts relate back to the Will to Power inherent in life?

The striving comes from the feeling of the lack of a complementary half.

Moreover, if you rest simply on him, to avoid that anti-life attitude, Crom will send you doom! He is the perfect God.

.....

EmptyForceOfChi:

im actually in the process of making a cloudbuster a orgone accumilator, and a HHG (holy hand grenade) i will conduct reichs experiments for him and do it in secret then get the info out everywhere before the government can burn m works also, and i am aware that there is bad orgone energy (dead orgone)and good orgone energy, bad and good qi exist and these machines can also have drawbacks and give the opperator mass amounts of dead orgone wich can drain your life force, but the HHG unit has no bad effects i will show everyone how to construct a HHG soon when i gather more info. james you want proof? i will give you real proof create an orgone accumilator a HHG and a cloudbuster i will do the same, i will do experiments then guide you with yours from here, then you can assess the results and get your proof.

You'd probably do better speaking to a professor of physics at a university, or attempt to get a grant for laboratory work on such a thing. Moreover, anything named after a Mounty Python sketch? Probably not legit. Also, are you capable of disproving convection currents?

would you give it a try princejames? there not hard to make no electronics just a few materials what do you say?, you did say your open to experiments wanna give this a try man?

Give me the plans and I shall see what I can do. I'm game.

VitalOne:

Firstly, the superstring theory explains many other theories and is widely gaining acceptance.

Yet has presented no experimental proof of its claims, has not produced a graviton, has not shown a non-3 dimensional object, seems to not understand the problem with dimensions less than 3...

Secondly, you say that electrons have an absolute position, but you also say that the absolute position can never ever be determined....so what proof is there that electrons do indeed have absolute positions, if you can never ever determine it? There seems to be a logical fallacy.

If we allow for determination to be the sole way things become real, then we must also conclude that we created the microscopic world in the 19th century.

No, the perception of time would exist, not time itself. Your memory exists in the eternal moment of now, giving the illusion of time.

One cannot peceive that which is not there. That is akin to saying a light which does not exist, still yet produces light. If I perceive time, time must exist.

Time does not flow, there is no movement of time. The past, present, and future all exist at the sametime. The double-slit experiment shows that the present can effect the past, and vice-versa. This further illustrates how the idea of time is simply an illusion. Remembering gives to the illusion of the past, and anticipation to the illusion of the future.

How do you then account for the fact that today shall become yesterday tomorrow? That it is not simulteneously all three at once, but that it becomes the past after it was first the future and then the present? Moreover, the idea that the double-slit experiment shows the present can impact the past and vice-versa, is still a controversial aspect of QM, specifically if one takes a non-Copenhagen view. Quantum Entanglement may produce something here.

Actually, in Quantum Mechanics, a particle can be in two (or more) places at once.

Present to me this proof. If you are speaking of probability, then I simply point to the fact that once observed, it is shown to exist in only one place. Ignorance prior to observation does not imply otherwise. Nor has spooky-action at a distance, as Einstein would say, been completely shown to exist, and thus things are still bound, right now, to the limit of C, which determines locality for any event.

I have evidence. It's called superposition. To quote wikipedia, "In quantum mechanics, if the outcome of an event has not been observed, it exists in a state of superposition, which is being in all possible states at once"

This further validates everything I've said about time having no factual basis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohm_interpretation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

Two theories which have drastically different views of QM, specifically Bohm's. Moreover, I fail to see how this destroys the notion of time? Because specifically macroscopically, we see time as existing, not to mention that QM allows for more than one particle to exist in this universe.

Well ok, if you insist that imprisoning Reich, burning his books, banning experimentation, and even destroying all use of the word 'orgone' was simply normal then you must be insane. The FDA hasn't banned much more dangerous experimentation on animals...why were they picking on Wilhelm Reich so much?

There is a massive difference betwixt animal and human experimentation. And yes, I find it completely fine to imprison a man who has committed a crime (refusing to cease and desist), to burn his books which have been discerned as scientifically dangerous, and "banning experimentation" would not at all hold sway if one went to another country, or actually proved a single thing in the United States.

I can [try] to heal almost anything. I can move Qi around my body.

How far away can you heal? And what is your success rate?

c7ityi_:

None of that convinces me that time is a physical reality.

So two twins becoming older and younger than the other by a significant amount (potentially) does not prove that time is physical for you?

The striving comes from the feeling of the lack of a complementary half.

Only the striving for love can be as such. Other striving are for the aggrandizement of the self.

So two twins becoming older and younger than the other by a significant amount (potentially) does not prove that time is physical for you?

Nope. Magnetic fields and speed doesn't affect time, but they affects the bodies. Time exists only in the thoughts.

Only the striving for love can be as such. Other striving are for the aggrandizement of the self.

The universe is based on "love", magnetic energy (mind)

C7ityi:

It isn't a magnetic field. It's a gravity field. Different things. Magnetic fields use photons, which are massless, whilst gravity is linked with mass and its curvature of space-time.

Now, as regards "love", define it?

Gravity is just magnetism in motion. The earth is a large magnet (since all particles have two poles), and because of the two equal forces, it cannot remain still so it starts to rotate, and this rotation generates the feeling of "gravity", only attraction. The harmony of galaxies cannot be explained with mere attraction, and there are many other problems, so phycisist have to invent a hypothetical dark matter, invisible matter, although magnetism could easily explain everything.

Photons. Nobody ever saw light between a source and a receptor: light is in the "receptor"'s sensation, not outside.

Love is attraction between "negative" and "positive" (two mirror images of unity) They want to unite. They want to become what they are in reality. Unity is destruction, separation is creation. In the material world, the unity is necessarily "divided", otherwise the world could not exist, two things can't be on the same place and time. Unity is only possible in consciousness.

c7ityi_:

Gravity is just magnetism in motion. The earth is a large magnet (since all particles have two poles), and because of the two equal forces, it cannot remain still so it starts to rotate, and this rotation generates the feeling of "gravity", only attraction. The harmony of galaxies cannot be explained with mere attraction, and there are many other problems, so phycisist have to invent a hypothetical dark matter, invisible matter, although magnetism could easily explain everything.

The Earth is not a particle, not to mention it is electrically neutral, as far as I am aware. Moreover, the Earth and Sun are not equal forces. The Sun is tens of thousands of times more massive than the Earth and is not moved like the Earth is by the Earth's presence.

Photons. Nobody ever saw light between a source and a receptor: light is in the "receptor"'s sensation, not outside.

Photons have been found to exist via machines, not simply through human conscious awareness. Moreover, one can surely see a light without being purely its receptor, such as when looking at a flash light's beam from the side. Multiple people also can see the same light.

Love is attraction between "negative" and "positive" (two mirror images of unity) They want to unite. They want to become what they are in reality. Unity is destruction, separation is creation. In the material world, the unity is necessarily "divided", otherwise the world could not exist, two things can't be on the same place and time. Unity is only possible in consciousness.

In what way is unity available to consciousness? And what are the "negative" and "positive"?

The Earth is not a particle,

lol, funniest thing i've heard in 5 years. i meant that it's built of particles, so it behaves like them. put two magnets together, they will no longer have 4 poles, but they will merge, they will only have 2 poles, they will become one great magnet.

Moreover, the Earth and Sun are not equal forces.

lolzor, i mean the negative and positive forces of magnetism of the earth. mere attraction and speed couldn't hold planets on their orbits, it would require an absurd equilibrium. but the attractive and the repulsive forces are necessarily equal in power so they can hold planets on their orbit, just like they hold electrons on their orbits....

it is ridiculous to assume that there was an "explosion", and it leads atoms together by "chance" or something, and holds them on their orbits for billions of years, building larger masses (for whatever "reason") which behave the same way. it can only be described by a deep will within matter, to become greater, more united, more whole, more like oneself, more like the unity.

Multiple people also can see the same light.

of course they can... what are you talking about?

In what way is unity available to consciousness?

there is no matter which restricts it. your consciousness can be at many places at the same time... unification is to realize that the outer world is also you. it is your unconscious mind. i'm a part of it. you are a part of my unconscious mind. there is only one self, within many bodies, masks...

yes... you created me to say this to you... not you... not prince james... the real you... the self... to remind yourself... because... even though you know everything... it is the role of consciousness to repel... to refuse oneself...

c7ityi_:

lol, funniest thing i've heard in 5 years. i meant that it's built of particles, so it behaves like them. put two magnets together, they will no longer have 4 poles, but they will merge, they will only have 2 poles, they will become one great magnet.

There are electrically neutral particles, you know this, no?

lolzor, i mean the negative and positive forces of magnetism of the earth. mere attraction and speed couldn't hold planets on their orbits, it would require an absurd equilibrium. but the attractive and the repulsive forces are necessarily equal in power so they can hold planets on their orbit, just like they hold electrons on their orbits....

The problem with this notion is that it doesn't take into account the reality of space-time warping by gravity sources. In reality, the Earth wants to move in a straight line, but due to the curvature of space, it cannot. This curvature is caused by the gravity of the solar system/the sun.

it is ridiculous to assume that there was an "explosion", and it leads atoms together by "chance" or something, and holds them on their orbits for billions of years, building larger masses (for whatever "reason") which behave the same way. it can only be described by a deep will within matter, to become greater, more united, more whole, more like oneself, more like the unity.

Will requires a consciousness inherent in matter, which isnot demonstrated to exist in the least. Consciousness requires sense. Matter only senses on an organic level. Moreover, considering atoms are meditated by several different forces working on different particles and such, their "will" sure does manifest differently! Furthermore, random chance accounts for the thingsquite well.

of course they can... what are you talking about?

Then how is the light in the mind alone?

there is no matter which restricts it. your consciousness can be at many places at the same time... unification is to realize that the outer world is also you. it is your unconscious mind. i'm a part of it. you are a part of my unconscious mind. there is only one self, within many bodies, masks...

And how can our consciousnesses be in many place at the same time? Can you hold two thoughts in your mind at once?

yes... you created me to say this to you... not you... not prince james... the real you... the self... to remind yourself... because... even though you know everything... it is the role of consciousness to repel... to refuse oneself...

Yet why would consciousness hold this property?

Gravage, while I agree with you, I must point out that science is also 'just' a concept as much as is 'mind'. Matter, in fact all forms of energy, do indeed exist in a very real manner, and would continue to do so in absence of any concept (i.e., if there were no humans to observe), but it's important to remember that one cannot merely appeal to science as justification for this. We created science as a methodology to describe and predict how energy "behaves". That is all.

No,science is the search for facts,not concept.We only observe how the nature "behaves" and some of many of our explanations are proved,but however there are new questions...

There are electrically neutral particles, you know this, no?

Yes, but I guess their poles are neutralized because of other particles' magnetic fields around them.

In reality, the Earth wants to move in a straight line, but due to the curvature of space, it cannot.

I don't believe in this curvature. I don't think the earth "wants" to move in a straight line, I think it is pushed by magnetic fields (not those weak consequental ones which we hardly detect) Some scientists in the past believed that planets were magnets.

Will requires a consciousness inherent in matter, which isnot demonstrated to exist in the least.

What is "will" if it is converted into a more primitive form? It becomes something like magnetism. How do you explain that magnets, particles, repel and attract? It can only be explained by a "will" (I'm NOT talking about an advanced FREE will)

Consciousness requires sense. Matter only senses on an organic level.

I'm not talking about free "consciousness" at human level. If the self is in an animal, it cannot be as conscious and it cannot express itself as much as when it is in a human body. When it is in matter, it can only express itself by cooling off, paralyzing and drawing inward and it is not conscious of anything.

Moreover, considering atoms are meditated by several different forces working on different particles and such, their "will" sure does manifest differently!

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The self manifests itself on all levels from the most primitive to the most advanced because it is all those levels.

Then how is the light in the mind alone?

Easily. There is only one mind and everything is inside it.

And how can our consciousnesses be in many place at the same time? Can you hold two thoughts in your mind at once?

I meant that you can for example have your consciousness in your fingers, hands and feet at the same time.

How do you will for something? How do you lift your hand? What sends the electrical impulses. It is you, the mind. Because humans have an advanced brain we can express our self very precisely. When the self is in matter, it can only express itself on material level.

c7ityi_:

Yes, but I guess their poles are neutralized because of other particles' magnetic fields around them.

Actually, I do believe neutrons and such simply don't interact with the electromagnetic force.

I don't believe in this curvature. I don't think the earth "wants" to move in a straight line, I think it is pushed by magnetic fields (not those weak consequental ones which we hardly detect) Some scientists in the past believed that planets were magnets.

Some scientists in the past also thought the planets were disks in the sky and incarnated Gods. The curvature of space has a lot of experimental proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens

What is "will" if it is converted into a more primitive form? It becomes something like magnetism. How do you explain that magnets, particles, repel and attract? It can only be explained by a "will" (I'm NOT talking about an advanced FREE will)

Virtual photon exchange explains it far better than a primitve form of "will". Moreover, the idea of "free will" is nearly philosophically incapable of being pronounced as being true.

I'm not talking about free "consciousness" at human level. If the self is in an animal, it cannot be as conscious and it cannot express itself as much as when it is in a human body. When it is in matter, it can only express itself by cooling off, paralyzing and drawing inward and it is not conscious of anything.

There is nothing about humanity that places us above the animals on a biological level, aside from a large brain size compared to our bodies - whales have more brains, by the way - and opposable thumbs with dexterous digits, allowing us to make use of our capacity to change the world far more than most other creatures, via the employment of highly sophisticated means of manipulation.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The self manifests itself on all levels from the most primitive to the most advanced because it is all those levels.

Do tell us how this is so?

Easily. There is only one mind and everything is inside it.

Then why do I not share your thoughts?

I meant that you can for example have your consciousness in your fingers, hands and feet at the same time.

As a unified whole, yes.

How do you will for something? How do you lift your hand? What sends the electrical impulses. It is you, the mind. Because humans have an advanced brain we can express our self very precisely. When the self is in matter, it can only express itself on material level.

Yet, once again, you'll have to demonstrate why a self even exists in matter? Matter does not demonstrate selfhood like beings do. Matter is compelled, beings, whilst they may be determined, still demonstrate a deal more freedom than say...elementary particles.

Some scientists in the past also thought the planets were disks in the sky and incarnated Gods.

They ARE incarnated Gods, but people no longer understand what the word God means. It means the self.

The curvature of space has a lot of experimental proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens

I see no proof.

Virtual photon exchange explains it far better than a primitve form of "will".

Oh, man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm takling about the cause, but people don't know what the word cause means, do they? The world consists of motion. What causes motion? What causes magnetism. If you say that Big bang caused motion, then say what caused the Big bang. Everything that is physical has a cause. Everything that exists must have a cause in order to be, but the cause cannot be visible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moreover, the idea of "free will" is nearly philosophically incapable of being pronounced as being true.

Are you saying that we don't have free will?

Then why do I not share your thoughts?

Because you want to remain yourself. It is the role of consciousness to refuse its real nature, the infinity. Without the refusal, the world could not exist and you would be unconscious.

Yet, once again, you'll have to demonstrate why a self even exists in matter? Matter does not demonstrate selfhood like beings do.

You'll first have to explain what causes motion. Then you'll realize that the only solution is the self!!!!!!!! Matter does express itself, by motion. Atomic particles constantly move. The material world never rests, motion is the law. Nothing "visible" can be the ultimate cause, because if it is visible it must have been caused by another power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

c7ityi_:

They ARE incarnated Gods, but people no longer understand what the word God means. It means the self.

Both etymologically and religiously this is a mistake. It even contradicts your philosophy, which asserts individual atoms have the selfhood, not the constructs. Or is it now both?

I see no proof.

So light is being bent by magic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity

Oh, man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm takling about the cause, but people don't know what the word cause means, do they? The world consists of motion. What causes motion? What causes magnetism. If you say that Big bang caused motion, then say what caused the Big bang. Everything that is physical has a cause. Everything that exists must have a cause in order to be, but the cause cannot be visible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, an infinite regress of causes is quite possible. See my "Prince James Argument for the Existence of God", where I implicitly refute Aristolean prime mover notions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetism


Are you saying that we don't have free will?

Yes. Free-will seems a myth. See the arguments as presented classically:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

Free will basically has no proper arguments for it.

Because you want to remain yourself. It is the role of consciousness to refuse its real nature, the infinity. Without the refusal, the world could not exist and you would be unconscious.

So how do you even know that this "true self" exists?

You'll first have to explain what causes motion. Then you'll realize that the only solution is the self!!!!!!!! Matter does express itself, by motion. Atomic particles constantly move. The material world never rests, motion is the law. Nothing "visible" can be the ultimate cause, because if it is visible it must have been caused by another power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The self explains nothing. The idea of a "prime moveer who is unmoved" is nonsensical. If the prime mover cannot be moved, then causality - which is part of motion - cannot be considered eternal, thus the need for the prime mover is no longer needed.

So light is being bent by magic?

It is bent by gravity.

Actually, an infinite regress of causes is quite possible.

A cause is not something that happens in the past, once and for all, it happens at each moment, continuously.

Free will basically has no proper arguments for it.

It has one very strong argument: it feels like we have free will.

It is bent by gravity.



A cause is not something that happens in the past, once and for all, it happens at each moment, continuously.



It has one very strong argument: it feels like we have free will.

Actually,there is no free will,everything is commanded by the brain.It has been proven that thru electrical impulses brain "give" orders what we're going to do-science has already proved that.

c7ityi_:

It is bent by gravity.

No, the light is actually moving straight, it is the space which itself is curved. In fact, I shall go over to the physics area to get some people to validate this statement with all the proof they can muster.

A cause is not something that happens in the past, once and for all, it happens at each moment, continuously.

Explain?

It has one very strong argument: it feels like we have free will.

See a great argument against free-will I formulated in "What is Consciousness?" on my last post. Moreover, "the feeling" that we are free, only stands up so much as we don't delve into things deep enough.

I ask too, and I read what you wrote, why must there be? Is a trains tracks a higher consciousness compared to the train? Is the grade of a mountainside a higher consciousness compared to a rock rolling down it? If it were a consciousness that created all this is would have to be the lowest and the highest and everything in between. How could this consciousness manifest the highest in advance from its lowest consciousness? Things just work. Whenever you put something in motion it has direction, where it very persistant in existing it seems to find patterns. How things were started in motion and by what, is unknown, and in my opinion likely unknowable. The patters are the clue i think. Somehow i think its all a great big loop. never exactly begginging, never exactly ending but fully of repitition of motion, with newly created objects set in same motion front to back and back to front. Naturally.


but where is the proof that time exists, what is time? isnt this just a human notion to measure lenths and durations of events and sequences.


if you would read what i said then the question you asked me about "why must there be" i already said why

i ddnt mention anything about conciously maybe maybe not,

about empty space let me explain something, you cannot expand into something that isnt already there, the universe cannot just expand into somthing that isnt there creatine existance as it travels along,

yes time is measurable to humans, time does not exist it isnt a force it isnt an energy it has no atoms, it has no signs of existance whatsoever, it is a concept yes, it is a notion yes, but it doesent actually exist, and it never will exist,


its just a number it dosent exist it is just something we use to calculate things in human terms. i just counted to 10, but this doent exist its jsut a thought, if this exists then so does everything i imagine like some fantasy world.


could you not just say things about what i said without giving any actual evidence to disprove my statement.

No, the light is actually moving straight, it is the space which itself is curved.

How illogical. Space does not consist of anything, it cannot be bent. It could also be an illusion, that the light seems only bent for the observer.

Moreover, "the feeling" that we are free, only stands up so much as we don't delve into things deep enough.

Going deeper in a spiral solves nothing. The answer cannot be found by asking why all the time. Infinity cannot be reached.

C7ityi:

How illogical. Space does not consist of anything, it cannot be bent. It could also be an illusion, that the light seems only bent for the observer.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2003-07/1057246738.Ph.r.html - Has a detailed mathematical explanation for a lgiht-bending question.

Moreover, since we are discussing light - which is the same for all inertial frames - then we are not likely dealing with an illusion.


Going deeper in a spiral solves nothing. The answer cannot be found by asking why all the time. Infinity cannot be reached.

This is not a question of infinity. We can certainly demonstrate that free-will either exists or does not.

This is not a question of infinity. We can certainly demonstrate that free-will either exists or does not.

It both exists and doesn't exist, just as the material world exists and doesn't exist. Ultimately, free will is an illusion but it exists if you believe in it.

C7ityi:

It both exists and doesn't exist, just as the material world exists and doesn't exist. Ultimately, free will is an illusion but it exists if you believe in it.

Things do not exist simply because we believe in them, they exist because they either exist or do not. Moreover, if you are trying to state that the material world exists and does not exist in the same manner and at the same time, then I shall note that you are wrong, because that is a contradiction, which cannot logically be held to be proper.

I'm right and you're wrong!

dont take it so seriously james it is consciousness... "i'mr right and you rownr"... the particles think they're right and others are wrong.... so repulsion is created...

C7ityi:

No, they are repulsed by electric charge.

Okay, here's a challenge:

Demonstrate, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that your claims that atoms can have will, are justified in anyway whatsoever.

No, they are repulsed by electric charge.

of course, but that's not the whole truth, it's not the CAUSE, first you have to explain what causes the electric charge, and if there's something beyond that which needs a cause! you can't find the cause by observing effects, everything visible is the result of a cause!

Demonstrate, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that your claims that atoms can have will, are justified in anyway whatsoever.

Um... I don't know how I would demostrate that. but it's not the kind of "will" you're imagining... it's not human will... but it's still the same.

c7ityi_:

of course, but that's not the whole truth, it's not the CAUSE, first you have to explain what causes the electric charge, and if there's something beyond that which needs a cause! you can't find the cause by observing effects, everything visible is the result of a cause!

Yet at the very same time, you claim you have a cause which is not an effect. This "will". No?

Um... I don't know how I would demostrate that. but it's not the kind of "will" you're imagining... it's not human will... but it's still the same.

Give it some thought and get back to me.

Yet at the very same time, you claim you have a cause which is not an effect. This "will". No?

Of course. Without a cause the universe would be illogical. Causes and effects are inseparable. If the effect is present, the cause is present. There can never be a visible cause, the will, the self, is the cause. Nothingness, unity, what we recognize as the self is the only thing which doesn't need a cause, it is the only necessity.

C7ityi:

Demonstrate the necessity of "self"?