Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

continued.....

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https://today.tamu.edu/2018/01/05/how-do-synapses-work/

The microtubule cytoskeleton at the synapse
JulieParatoabFrancescaBartolinia

Highlights

Abstract

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304394021002287

 

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continued.....

Finally found some information about the actual electrochemical data processing and transport by microtubules. Seems science has not yet been able to sort this out in great detail.

Microtubules

Advanced

https://psych.athabascau.ca/html/Psych402/Biotutorials/1/microtubules.shtml

Figure 11a: Synaptic Transmission

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Figure 11a illustrates the site where information is conveyed from one neuron to the next. At this junction, called the synapse, chemicals are used to transmit the electrical neuronal impulse. The structures (magnification approximately 93,000X) and substances involved in synaptic transmission at a directed synapse are identified, and the sequence of events in chemical transmission are described. A directed synapse is one in which the neurotransmitter release sites and receptor sites are close, but not touching. The cleft or space between these structures is typically 0.02-0.05 microns wide. A greater distance between the site of neurotransmitter release and the site of reception characterizes another type of synapse. In this so-called non-directed synapse, the neurotransmitters are released from variscosities (called "string-of-beads") along a neuron's axon.

Note that synapses are the terminal ends of microtubules in axons.

Neuronal Impulse

https://psych.athabascau.ca/html/Psych402/Biotutorials/11/part1.html

 

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How Does A Neuron Stay Polarized
Human Brain, 10.16. 2016

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Different motors and adaptors are required for the movement of varied cargoes.

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Much more.......
https://jonlieffmd.com/blog/neuronal-plasticity-blog/how-does-a-neuron-stay-polarized

 

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Hmm. What if instead of a human I use a microphone and record some music and don't listen to the recording?

Is there a transfer of "sound information"?

 

Sure in the form of bits and bytes and the recording medium is a HD.
And the "music" itself becomes stored information. If a human listens that information is stored in the pyramidal neurons of the brain and even if later you hear just a segment, you might recall the entire piece including the words.

Recording artists use that instant recall by finding a "hook", a phrase or passage that is "memorable" and becomes an "engram".
Freddy Mercury was a master at communicating a common phrase. That's how he was able to get 10,000 people to sing along with him and Queen.


Interestingly, Queen was an intellectual band.

What did the 4 original members of Queen study?

https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/literature-and-arts/music-popular-and-jazz-biographies/queen

 

This is a wonderful experiment in the pentatonic scale to which all people become exposed during their life. There are so many interesting common mental processes in play in this little clip it is truly remarkable.

 

And a follow-up discussion about the phenomenon of Notes and Neurons.

 

A whole new perspective' Neuro-immune circuits in the brain are responsible for homeostasis.

Microtubules as Regulators of Neural Network Shape and Function: Focus on Excitability, Plasticity and Memory

Abstract

https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4409/11/6/923/htm#

 

Role of microtubules in neuro-transmission.

The microtubule cytoskeleton acts as a key downstream effector of neurotransmitter signaling
Abstract

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20687109/

 

Adressing the quantum portion of the OP.

I wondered why Penrose would be interested in the concept that microtubules might in principle be able to process quantum data. After all microtubules are at nanoscale level and I wondered at what scale quantum processes occur.

At lookie here!

Scale at which quantum effects dominate

https://www.nano.gov/about-nanotechnology/what-is-so-special-about-nano

Microtubule properties seem to meet this description perfectly where applicable.

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figure 1: Microtubules are ever-changing, with reactions constantly adding and subtracting tubulin dimers at both ends of the filament (Figure 1). The rates of change at either end are not balanced — one end grows more rapidly and is called the plus end, whereas the other end is known as the minus end. In cells, the minus ends of microtubules are anchored in structures called microtubule organizing centers (MTOCs). The primary MTOC in a cell is called the centrosome, and it is usually located adjacent to the nucleus.

https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/microtubules-and-filaments-14052932/

 

continued from post# 2349
Do microtubules terminate in the neural synapse where they generate neurotransmitters?

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Fig. 1. Schematic of MT functions in two different types of postsynaptic elements. (A) Excitatory postsynaptic site: depolarization of the dendritic spine allows for transient entry of dynamic MTs into the spine. Entry of dynamic MTs into spines has been associated with structural plasticity of the invaded spines. Selective dendritic spine delivery of SytIV is mediated by the MT plus end motor Kif1A. Entry of dynamic MTs into the spine is regulated by the MT plus end binding protein EB3, which can bind to F-actin and F-actin regulators residing in the spine, such as drebrin and cortactin. EB3 is also a binding partner of STIM2, an ER membrane protein and a regulator of Ca2+ dynamics in mushroom spines. This binding may provide an additional pathway for entry of STIM2/smooth endoplasmic reticulum (sER) into the spine. (B) Inhibitory postsynaptic site: the postsynaptic element of inhibitory synapses is typically located directly on the dendrite, cell body or axon hillock. Inhibitory synapses can be glycinergic, GABAergic or mixed. Gephyrin acts as a scaffold protein, anchoring glycine and GABA receptors to the microtubule cytoskeleton. While the lateral diffusion of glycine receptors (GlyRs) in the synapse is affected by F-actin, lateral diffusion outside of the synapse is controlled by MTs, a mechanism that may be important for the dynamic regulation of the neuronal membrane “apparent viscosity” to control the “influx” and “efflux” of receptors at the synapse during synaptic plasticity.
J.

http://www.columbianeuroresearch.or...1/Bartolini-1-s2.0-S0304394021002287-main.pdf

 

Write4U, I see you're trying to understand how the brain stores and processes information. It seems that memory in brains is connected to plasticity . . . perhaps

Rule one is, information is not required to have meaning.
Say the information is a binary string and it's a random string. It might be the result of coin tosses; it might be the output of a Markov process, or an encryption.
How do you tell, if all you have is the string?

Without further meaningful information, you can't tell. The string might be some information that's existed since the BB and that's all you can say about it, without the ancillary input.

But wait, you do have some extra information which conveys meaning. You know about neurons and how they work.
What about how neurons work in parallel, or the cooperative information processing?

This is still mostly research level stuff, no?

What I'm saying is, you need a context in which certain physical things are necessarily fixed, to apply meaning. That might be Rule two, I couldn't really say. . .

This post has been transmitted in order to make a point, about what Information Theory is, and what it isn't.

 

Plasticity may be important in "recall". But AFAIK, "storage" it is a process in the pyramidal neurons whereby the data becomes fixed, somewhat like binary data becomes "fixed" on a HD of a computer.

There are 3 individual + 1 communal types of memory and I believe that each memory uses a different type of neuron. Note that when we speak of neurons, we are really talking about the arrays of microtubules that are responsible for data transmission inside the neuron as well as in the cytoplasm and cytoskeleton.
Synaptic plasticity maybe important during the formation and retrieval of information but is not part of the actual information "storage" in the brain's pyramidal neurons which contain stacked microtubules where information is fixed by a process called phosphorylation.

Memory (Encoding, Storage, Retrieval)

* 3) long term memories also known as "engrams".

The brain decides what information is "meaningful" by the emotional response it produces. Sometimes an experience is so traumatic that the brain "suppresses" recall.

Other subconscious autonomous neural memory functions are found in the homeostatic neural network in the brain. It controls and regulates all internal chemistry and dynamics that actually keep us alive (with the help of our symbiotic bacterial friends).

Yes, those are the hardwired neural response systems learned at the very beginning of life itself . The "fight or flight" response is already present in single celled neuronless organisms like the Paramecium which has a rudimentary navigational ability. All subsequent responses are just evolved from billions of years of natural selection for survivability.

That's why it is called the "neural network", all neurons are in communication with the brain and each other.
This is what is giving rise to terms like "orchestrated", "integrated", "reduction", "composition" in the modern consciousness hypotheses.

Yes, but there is a long history of practical clinical consciousness manipulation by anesthesiology. It is remarkable that we can render a person unconscious but leave the brain's homeostatic neural control system unaffected by the anesthesia. IMO, this may offer some interesting insights later on in the fledgling neural research of the brain.

I agree, but to decipher some 3 billion years of evolution from Prokaryotic organisms to Eukaryotic organisms and the development of electro-chemical neural systems from primarily chemical response systems is undoubtedly going to take a while....!

There are several current research approaches :

Orchestrated Objective Reduction (ORCH OR)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction

Higher Order Syntactic Thought Theory (HOST)
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.00655/full

Memory Consolidation)
https://www.karger.com/Article/Fulltext/363702

Integrated information theory (IIT, Phi)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory

Revisiting the Global Workspace ( orchestrating the hierarchical organisation of the human brain)
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-01-revisiting-global-workspace-orchestrating-hierarchical.html

 

More specifically. Hameroff explains how the actual storage process unfolds.

Scientists claim brain memory code cracked
Date: March 9, 2012
Source: Center for Consciousness Studies University of Arizona, Anesthesiology

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120309103701.htm

 

So is there life in the quantum realm ?

 

That definition is too general.
Life is a pattern formed within the quantum realm. Life emerged from the quantum realm.
Just as consciousness is a pattern formed within the physical realm. Consciousness emerged from the physical realm.

 

I'm sure there are. Brain information is not all that well understood yet.

I recall reading something on the subject of cooperative activity between neurons, it might have been in SciAm.

Anyhoo, the research found that groups of neurons set themselves up by more or less singing to each other. Those that sing the same synchronous tune then engage in some higher level activity.

These groups or "choirs" of neurons and presumably other support cells aren't fixed by other than the interneuron signalling. That is, the groups emerge (and then cooperate) from what appears to be random, chaotic neural activity.

The random background though is probably some threshold of say, conscious thought.

 

I agree and have commented on the lack of coordinated research between the different areas of neurology.

Yes, and I suspect this is a result of "quorum sensing", which is what bacteria use to communicate.

Yes, this seems to be fundamental, considering that in addition to neural communication, all the cells in the body seem to communicate with each other .

Apparently when the communication is complimentary it seems to create new synapses and reinforce the communication network. The body has no skills in circuit design so all of that appears random, but it is obviously effective.

To me that seems an entirely reasonable assumption.

I had the experience of standing under a high power transmission tower with a neon light bulb and have it light up. It was awesome.

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Now consider a similar micro effect among trillions of microtubules and synapses in the brain!

 

A little additional info on MT

Microtubules as One-Dimensional Crystals: Is Crystal-Like Structure the Key to the Information Processing of Living Systems?
Abstract:

1. Introduction:

5.3. Electrical Transport Measurements

......more

https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4352/11/3/318/htm

 

Yeah, unfortunately mdpi isn't a trustworthy source of scientific publications.

It's more a predatory site.