If the universe is deterministic, and thus predetermined, then, unsurprisingly, the inputs you have to begin with are also predetermined. This rather limits the number of possible inputs to... 1, and the number of outputs to... 1. Even your desire to end up with 0 as the output is predetermined. I really hope you haven't spent too long on it so far?
I disagree 1/ it takes more than one ingredient to bake a cake for example... and it takes even more to make the decision to bake it..... 2/ If everything is predetermined then, even if not considering self determination, all alternative choices are predetermined as are their respective outcomes. ( remember infinity is a big word) If all alternatives are predetermined then that grants the actor the power to freely make a decision on which predetermined choice he chooses without invoking in-determinism at all. The only illusion in this universe is in-determinism as a cop out from not understanding what infinite predetermination means and leads to. As there is not a single choice a person could make that isn't predetermined then freedom to choose as per his own self interests is fully present.
5 minutes long enough? oh... wanted to ask you... which counter factual alternatives are not predetermined? I guess they are the ones you don't choose.... (joke)
I'm honestly not surprised. So? No, only the imagining of the choices is predetermined, along with the eventual outcome. Infinity can be as big a word as you want it to be, it doesn't change the principles involved, principles that you are simply riding roughshod over and ignoring. And what exactly do you mean by "freely"? You have mentioned the word in a number of threads but never had the good graces to explain what you mean by it. Care to now? Certainly the actor can choose from among the alternatives that it has been predetermined that they imagine. But that process of choice follows in a predetermined manner, with the inputs and the outputs being predetermined. And where do you see in this a notion of freedom that is not found in a thermostat? Indeterminism doesn't exist within a deterministic universe, so how exactly is it a cop out? The question is the nature of the freedom present in a deterministic system, and whether the complexity of the human process of choice is in principle any different than that found in a thermostat. Once again, and hopefully for the last time, although I doubt that very much, it is not the process of choice that anyone has raised issue with, but the nature of the freedom within that process, whether it is anything other than the trivial notion of freedom found in a thermostat.
It is predetermined that you will imagine the alternatives you do. All alternatives that you don't select, and possibly even the one you do (if it does not come to pass as imagined), are counter factual. Counterfactual simply means that expressing something that has not happened. If something has happened then it is factual. The single predetermined future path, due to being predetermined, is also factual (even if we don't know what it is yet). Every single other alternative we can imagine is, by definition, counterfactual, but our act of imagining of them is not.
An exact definition I guess can be got close to with your help. After all you certainly seem to know what not being free is.. Perhaps we can compare notes? To me it is easier to describe the way human use propriorception to firstly locate parts of their body and then with out resistance move your focus or concentration point from one part to another. For example your sitting at your desk typing on a key board. You point your minds concentration down to your right foot and then point down to your left foot and you will notice that you do it with out resistance, thus the term "freely" could be defined in part by using the words "with out resistance." Pointing (focus) your mind to the various choices, memories etc quite freely.... The pointing function then becomes the chooser. I am sure you will find that it is no illusion and a very real aspect of human function being able to point your concentration is essential for just about any movement including the eyes, auditory focus etc. I personally know how important this function is because of major illness (stroke) some 30 years ago. The more resistance the less free and so on.... So what do you mean by "not being free"? As this issue of free is such a big problem for you and others perhaps another thread devoted to the term "free" could be in order.
but Sarkus we are talking about the mind...everything is imagined in some form...Philosophy 101 All choices a pure mental constructs that we imagine exist and fortunately most of them turn out to exist. The choices you choose are just as imaginary as the ones you don't choose. If you ever get the chance to study and observe people suffering major mental health issues it becomes quite obvious what happens when the ability to imagine reality becomes dysfunctional.
So something that goes from A to B to C, and can only ever go from A to B to C, and does so "with out resistance" is, in your view, moving "freely"? So, does a river run "freely" simply because there are no obstacles in it's path? Is a thermostat also "free" because it does its job without resistance?
I think you need to think a bit about what you are writing.... btw most thermostats operate by using resistance....but of course they only have a dtermined path... No choices involved to discuss. It takes a living mind to make a choice. By switching "category" in mid flight you confuse yourself endlessly.
No, they really don't turn out to exist. Seriously. Almost none of them in the grand scheme of things. Every time you imagine what you might want for dinner - how many of those do you not have for that dinner? Yes, which is why I said that "All alternatives that you don't select, and possibly even the one you do (if it does not come to pass as imagined), are counter factual" because it is quite possible that we conclude to do something but don't end up doing it. We could choose to go at the light... but the engine breaks down. So yes, all alternatives are imagined, and only those that match what we actually end up doing are factual, the rest are imagined and counterfactual. First, you know zip about what I have or haven't done in the past, so please don't presume. Second, I'm sure you think this has relevance, but it really doesn't. Whether the imagination is dysfunctional or not doesn't alter that the alternatives they imagine are alternatives they imagine.
Sarkus Let me ask you this: When you point your mind to your right foot and then to your left foot is there any resistance felt in the transition? When you point your mind to various parts of your body is there anything causing resistance to that movement of focus? If you say yes ... you need to see a doctor....
Why, too complex for you? Please don't get pedantic. It was clear you were not using the electrical term. And what "category" am I switching? So you weren't actually meaning anything at all when you said "thus the term "freely" could be defined in part by using the words "with out resistance."? Okay, so we've overturned your first meaning for the term... anything else to add?
I have got remember to always be specific to the point of absurdity when discussing any thing with you. of course I am not referring to rivers, or anything else but human freewill..... you know.... the actual topic of this thread. ok... so what do you want to discuss now... how about a trip computer in an Audi saloon, or should it be a Toyota Supra...or how a kite has no freedom because it is attached by a string... Gosh ..... Better still how about we talk about Human beings...
If you were more devoted to the topic instead of trying to tear me down you might actually achieve something. I am still waiting on your definition so that all the readers of the forum can know that you know what not being free means. You use it constantly but as yet have offered no definition yourself. So please we are all eyes.... btw you haven't over turned it. All you have done is prove your ignorance and motivation.
the above is a fine example... can I use it later? I am thinking of putting a thread on trolling, baiting tactics and straw men.... and you and Baldeee are providing great examples.... oh ... don't worry I'll keep your handle out of it... So far you have been most helpful in ways your couldn't possibly imagine...
Has it been pre determined how long he will not understand? Which will make it predetermined how long this thread will last Care to take a predetermined guess? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I know what we're discussing, but if you can't distinguish and explain the difference in the nature of freedom between a river and human free will, and the description of "freely" certainly covers the former... what am I to think? They all have freedoms, but it is the nature of that freedom that is being discussed here. If you are asserting that the human will has a different type of freedom to a computer, or a thermostat, then please explain it. We are. But to establish the nature of free will, and what it really is, whether the freedom is trivial or anything more, it is quite correct and pertinent to discuss those things that are also covered by the definition of "freely" that you offer. If you can't handle that...? My objective is not to tear you down, but simply to defend my position on this matter. You, however, continue to post crap. And by that I mean ill-thought out half-baked pseudo-arguments, throwing words around as if the word itself is enough. I have no doubt you think you're being clever, or think your arguments are intelligible, and have some profound meaning. No, they're just crap. Along the lines of "able to do otherwise than what one does". You will do what you will do. Don't feel you need to on my part. But what does this have to do with anything? I could tell you about my desire for a chicken sandich, but it's not going to further anything. Where you are concerned I have no doubt that I couldn't imagine it.
Yes, but we can not know until he does. I don't think his understanding will actually have an input into that, but you never know. No. And yes, I was predetermined to provide that answer. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
