why we need ghosts

Discussion in 'UFOs, Ghosts and Monsters' started by birch, Feb 27, 2016.

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  1. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not so sure that Chopra gives "magical" attributes to quantum but rather that quantum has more applications than is as yet fully explored.

    ORCH-OR is a new perspective on quantum collapse in the brain, for instance.
    If I understand it he is part of the Hammeroff - Penrose collaboration on understanding the mechanics of consciousness itself. This needs not be religious in principle, but may well be confirmed by ongoing experiments in the future.

    This conversation between Hameroff and Chopra may be of interest. Hameroff subtly seems to steer Chopra away from the magical aspects and keep it to quantum mechanics.



    I think we must admit we still have little understanding of the universe at quantum scales.
    Who knows what wonders will be discovered in that realm.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
    Write4U, Feb 12, 2019
    #961
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  3. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Chopra has made a career out of spinning out flights of fantasy from real science. He knows just enough physics to be effective at bamboozling his followers with technical terms. However, the vast majority of what he talks and writes about is pseudoscience.

    On the contrary, I think we've got quite a good understanding of the universe at quantum scales. Because the results of quantum mechanics are non-intuitive and the mathematics required to really understand the theory is above most people's pay grade, it is fertile ground for making a kind of religion. Ideas such as "everything is connected to everything else" and "spooky action at a distance" are immensely appealing to the proponents of pyramid power, the "Law of Attraction", cosmic consciousness etc., but the conversations these people have typically take about a minute to move away from what science says into wild speculation and unjustified extrapolation.
     
    James R, Feb 13, 2019
    #962

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  5. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I've listened to him and he sounds a little exotic to me also. But Eastern philosophies allow for some interesting analogies.
    I agree in general, but there are many levels of magnitude between an Angstrom (smallest we can see with an electron microscope) and Planck scale of which we have some information, such as the universal constants.
    But are those the only constants that exist in that realm?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_units

    My question is if there might be a metaphysical world (such as mathematical constants), where potential implications form which become expressed in reality as mathematical patterns. And which explains my infatuation with Tegmark...

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    But at an even deeper level, I am thinking of David Bohm's hierarchies of orders as in his hypothesis of "wholeness and the implicate order". I find it very profound.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
    Write4U, Feb 13, 2019
    #963

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  7. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    If quantum entanglement isn't "spooky action at a distance", then what else is it? From my understanding of it that is exactly what it is.

    "Quantum entanglement is a physical phenomenon which occurs when pairs or groups of particles are generated, interact, or share spatial proximity in ways such that the quantum state of each particle cannot be described independently of the state of the other(s), even when the particles are separated by a large distance."--- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement
     
    Magical Realist, Feb 13, 2019
    #964
  8. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Call it that if you like, but don't imagine that "spooky" means anything magical or, let us say, ghost-like. It means something more like "counter-intuitive" or "unexpected".

    When two particles are entangled, they can no longer be described by separate wave functions or quantum states, but instead must be considered as parts of a single wavefunction or state. That wavefunction can be spread out spatially over a very large region of space. Nevertheless, it still obeys the usual quantum rules regarding measurement, in particular the idea that when a measurement is made the wavefunction - a superposition of basis states, in this case - "collapses" to one of the possible basis states, with relative probability determined by the wavefunction itself. If the particles that form parts of the wavefunction are separated by a large distance, then a measurement can result in correlations observed over that large distance, too.

    Importantly, no information is transmitted faster than the speed of light when an entangled wave function collapses due to a measurement.
     
    James R, Feb 13, 2019
    #965
  9. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    As I said, Chopra has made a career out of trying to shoehorn Eastern mystical ideas into modern physics or vice versa. The parallels between the two are not nearly as strong as he would like you to believe.


    You mean some kind of metaphysical world might explain the physical world, or that there is somehow a transfer from the metaphysical to the physical?

    How is your metaphysical world different from the world of ideas?

    I'm not familiar with that.
     
    James R, Feb 13, 2019
    #966
  10. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Yes..Einstein originated the term and we all know what he meant by it. He is describing entanglement exactly like it is. It's not some New Age belief. It's all tied into Bell's proof of quantum nonlocality.

    Then explain these results:

    https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080813/full/news.2008.1038.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
    Magical Realist, Feb 13, 2019
    #967
  11. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Yes.

    Einstein was an early devil's advocate regarding quantum physics, which at the time was a very new field of study. But here we are, more than 100 years later, with the benefit of 100 years of progress in physics since Einstein said that.

    I'm not convinced that "we all" know what he meant, at all. I'm not even convinced you know what he meant by it.

    Actually, at the time he was expressing skepticism about the implications of quantum theory. He also said "God does not play dice", but 100 years of physics has proven him wrong, and even at the time the evidence was against him.

    Entanglement is very much not a New Age belief. The connection between Eastern mysticism and entanglement, however, very much is.

    What do you need explained?
     
    James R, Feb 13, 2019
    #968
  12. DaveC426913

    DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    This is ten years old, so I think I'm remembering the same incident.

    It caused a big fuss at the time - made the news. But of course, it had not been independently verified. When others attempted to recreate the results, they couldn't, casting grave doubts on the original experiment.

    And sure enough, they turned up a mechanical problem (some faulty electronic or coolant connector?) in the experiment setup that caused a very slight delay (56ms?) just long enough to make it look like the photons had arrived sooner than they should have.

    At least, that's from memory. I've done this backwards - posting my memory before checking the facts...
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
    DaveC426913, Feb 13, 2019
    #969
  13. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Something like that. The Platonic solids are representations of inherent universal pattern potentials, constants. They exist as metaphysical patterns which become expressed when applied to the structural expressions of physical constituents.
    If physical things behave in certain predictable ways then can we not ask if this is due to abstract common metaphysical functional imperatives ( Magnetism, Chiralty, Symmetry, etc).

    This is one of Bohm's fundamental differences with mainstream physics.
    btw. Bohm was a good friend of Einstein and they spent a lot of time in discussions.
    http://thebohmdocumentary.org/bohm-and-einstein/
    Unless you are perfectly satisfied with the current state of physics, reading David Bohm will open a new dimensional perspective. His major work is actually quite popular under the name Bohmian Mechanics.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie–Bohm_theory#Results

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholeness_and_the_Implicate_Order
    Am I still on topic?.......

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    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
    Write4U, Feb 13, 2019
    #970
  14. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Never mind if you can't see it...

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    Magical Realist, Feb 13, 2019
    #971
  15. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This may add to the discussion;
     
    Write4U, Feb 13, 2019
    #972
  16. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    From the linked article:

    "On the basis of their measurements, the team concluded that if the photons had communicated, they must have done so at least 100,000 times faster than the speed of light — something nearly all physicists thought would be impossible. In other words, these photons cannot know about each other through any sort of normal exchange of information."

    This is completely consistent with what I said: no information is transferred between the photons faster than the speed of light. That would be impossible (or, at least, inconsistent with relativity).

    Importantly, FTL information transfer is not necessary to explain entanglement. I gave a brief description of what actually happens above.

    Does that clarify things for you, Magical Realist?
     
    James R, Feb 13, 2019
    #973
  17. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    And this gets weird;


    Bohm postulates that photons are only particles and that the wavelike behavior is from a prior source, the universal Pilot Wave which contains the 'guiding' (wave interference) equation.

    The double slit experiment yields almost identical results, except that with Bohm's model each particle always occupies a specific place within the universal Pilot wave.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
    Write4U, Feb 13, 2019
    #974
  18. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    You don't get it. The experiment proves FTL communication between two photons. Here's the statement again:

    "On the basis of their measurements, the team concluded that if the photons had communicated, they must have done so at least 100,000 times faster than the speed of light — something nearly all physicists thought would be impossible. In other words, these photons cannot know about each other through any sort of normal exchange of information."

    "The bottom line, says Gisin is that “there is just no time for these two photons to communicate”.

    The experiment shows that in quantum mechanics at least, some things transcend space-time, says Terence Rudolph, a theorist at Imperial College London. It also shows that humans have attached undue importance to the three dimensions of space and one of time we live in, he argues. “We think space and time are important because that’s the kind of monkeys we are.”

    If you are baffled by the result, fear not — you’re not alone. “For me, honestly, it doesn’t make any sense,” says Gisin. “I don’t think we can today claim that we have a good story to tell how this all happens.” He hopes that the work will stimulate theorists to come up with new ways of explaining the spooky effect."

    If you're still confused, read the title of the article:
    Physicists spooked by faster-than-light information transfer
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
    Magical Realist, Feb 13, 2019
    #975
  19. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    So there's no time for them to communicate ... but they communicated?

    That doesn't read quite right, does it?

    I wonder if he really said that or if it was mis-reported or misconstrued by the reporter. If this is accurate, then Rudolph is simply wrong about entanglement transcending space and time. It just shows you: people make mistakes.

    That's a very strange thing for him to say. It would seem to be self-evident that space and time are important, and not just because we're monkeys. They are certainly of central importance in physics.

    It's not uncommon for physicists to want more in terms of explanation than quantum theory currently provides. There's no guarantee, however, that there is more that can be known about the "mechanism". In fact, from one perspective, quantum mechanics is a theory about how much information the universe will let us have.

    It's a bit sensationalist, isn't it? Inaccurate, too.

    How's that confusion going for you?
     
    James R, Feb 13, 2019
    #976
  20. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    You have been proven wrong by this famous experiment. FTL communication and information transfer happen in quantum entanglement. Go back to your science books. You obviously don't know as much as you strut around bragging about..
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
    Magical Realist, Feb 13, 2019
    #977
  21. DaveC426913

    DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Let's be clear. It's an article written about an experiment.
    Articles are not held to the same standard as science. So they can imply whatever they want - the experiment did not show that.

    Note that the subject of the article - its title - is actually about the reactions of scientists (they were spooked!), not about the science itself.


    Articles can make whatever claims they want. And this one did.

    Oh. You're retracting it.

    All good then.
     
    DaveC426913, Feb 13, 2019
    #978
  22. billvon

    billvon Valued Senior Member

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    No experiment has demonstrated FTL information transfer.
     
    billvon, Feb 13, 2019
    #979
  23. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
    Magical Realist, Feb 13, 2019
    #980
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