is life really generating order or is it just our false narrative perspective?

Went to the $2 shop and lashed out $4 for a $2 Mac and $2 umbrella

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Yep.

Nope. At least, I don't think so - nobody has detailed the mechanism of that event, to my knowledge, but they don't look like the same ones.

So?
In one of my past incarnations, I created "axenic" cultures of algae. One method was to pipette a single cell from a dispersed population into a sterilized medium. If successful, the alga would reproduce by division - a new and different living being would assemble inside or attached to the cell - from the light, heat, and simpler chemicals provided as nutrients - and then break away.

If I isolated it, in a test tube or something, that claim would be simple observation. If I didn't, why would I ignore the causes of its behavior?

Good lord. It doesn't snow where you live, apparently.
Where I'm sitting now, we're going to be lucky if it doesn't happen to our fingers and toes on the way to the mailbox.

Yep. We have a couple of them. One of them is called the "sun".

Generally speaking, the sun coming up tomorrow is not thought of as requiring much in the way of luck.

 

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Thanks!! you can keep the change!!

The truth is we don't!! Thats one of the good things about living in Texas. However, i mean't that crystallization is a rare event in term of...can you name another phenomenon like that? (life not accepted!!lol)

Well ok!!! I need some crops. Since we will have a lot of sun here tomorrow, i thinking of leaving outside some random lipids, aminoacids, etc. You think i am gonna get some crops? fingers crossed!! Or maybe i will need to come back in 10 million years to find crops? But what is gonna change in 10 million years?

If you put exactly 1 cell in a tube, without mimicking its environment by giving it food,what do you think will happen? Will the cell eat its feet and survive? Best case scenario its chemical structures and chemical reactions will somehow stall in a spore-like stable structure that can be "revived" when chemical reactions resume. Otherwise, if the structure gets affected enough, it will be destroyed.

 

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Why would we not give it food? It eats simple chemicals, and light, btw. It generates highly complex order from them, using the light for the energy required. If I did my job carefully enough, no other living thing will be in that tube with it.

Crystallization is a very, very, common phenomenon. More common than liquid fresh water, more common than glasses, for example.

Or photosynthetic bacteria, if you want instant gratification in observing order being generated.
But this: "- - - we must have a source of constant, continuous and tremendous source of entropic decreases - - - " is a done deal.
Agreed?

 

what do you mean? that if you put simple chemicals in the light you will get photosynthetic bacteria the next day? Not in 10 billion years
The photosynthetic bacteria will do what they will do only because they belong to a bigger system. In other words, the context they were created....can't separate it from that.

Yes but by giving them the food, you just mimic their real life context. In nature, their source of energy is the other life forms. If you don't give food, they will die. When they eat it all, they will die again. They are doomed. They need to perform tons of catabolic reactions in nature to obtain the nutrients in the purity we will give them in the experiment. Our experimental system is highly selected, highly artificial and highly ideal. In real life, the nutrients are part of life. And btw the entropy of the flask after the bugs grow a bit will definitely increase overall. One look at the dirty color of the used media with the wasted products and you could easily tell that not much order was created in there...the newly formed bugs are exactly what the clumps are in the OP: products of a very disordered chemical activity. We just pay attention to them and we isolate them from their context (because of our perspective and because they functionally look like us).

 

And also note that in the flask the majority of nutrients will be used in catabolic reactions for energy production..so if you forget about order and organization and just calculate or measure entropic changes, either in the whole system, or even in individual organisms, i am sure the results will agree with me.

 

Had coffee - went home - watched tv news - shower - bed - sleep - woke up - breakfast time

Still waiting for life to be god explained (the food on the table)

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Soooo in your proposed situation where the results will agree with me babies shrink???

Ummmm don't think so

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Their real life food is simple chemicals and sunlight. The sunlight is their major source of energy (other life forms use heat and sulfur compounds and the like from ocean vents or subterranean rocks, but these used sunlight). From that they generate very high levels of complex order - right in front of you, if you watch.

They will do what they do regardless of the system you put them in, if they can. They even do what they do in a test tube under lab lights, as the only living beings in their environment.

Absolutely. If the system is closed. The 2nd Law applies all the way - there is no "gap".

Entire new cells of living algae were created in there - extraordinarily high levels of order, among the highest known.

Highly ordered and very complex products, from much simpler and nonliving chemicals.

Everything in those test tubes was measured, recorded, analyzed. Everything.

 

they will shrink if they don't have something to destroy

 

Don't follow your logic on that statement

Are you now say you need to give them something to destroy (presumably food) before they can grow bigger???

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Even those extremophiles, which are extreme cases, did not come out of nothing. They themselves are tremendously complex chemical systems with incredibly complex structures. They are the result of eons of chemical events and of course the only reason they exist, is only....all the rest of the life that exists. So even those extreme cases cannot be seen separate from their context. And the overall chemical reactions performed by them are still entropy increasing. The only reason they create longer organic molecules is the breakdown of already existing molecules like ATP or NADPH

But they will do it because they are a part of a bigger system from which they originally .came from. They carry a big history behind them. They are super complex systems themselves. If you remove the engine from a car, it with still do its thing and make noise if you give gas and electricity.

 

Soooo the VERY VERY FIRST life did not eat chemicals

It ate life which was already here

That makes sense

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The very very first life was veeery different than today. It was just some chemical systems. They were not eating in the sense we mean it today (which is a very anthropentric concept btw). Of course they are still chemical systems, but now they became more complex and chaotic (for an objective observer). And the "clumps" are way more complicated now

 

No I have not, but why would I? I pointed out in post 7 that it is a well known result in chemistry that a polymer has lower entropy than the monomer starting material.

So protein synthesis, or the copying of DNA, will quite clearly involve a reduction of entropy of the long chain molecules relative to its starting materials. What enables this is the concomitant increase in entropy of the metabolic products generated at the same time. If you are interested in this there is a detailed paper on it here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3712629/. (I have only skimmed this by the way, as it is very long and technical, but the principles are clear from even cursory reading.)

If you think crystallisation is a rare event, I do not know what world you are living in. It goes on all the time. Why do you say the entropy decrease is "small"? Compared to what?

And I most certainly have seen, very frequently indeed, the self-organisation of organic molecules - into both polymers and crystals.

As for the "constant, tremendous source of entropic decrease", you may have noticed that you need to eat to stay alive. What do you think that is all about?

 

Soooo The very very first life was veeery different than today

AND

It was just some chemical systems

Fair enough

AND

They were not eating in the sense we mean it today

Fair enough

AND

No that is enough ANDs

In short to double-check, so my 3 neurone brain understands,

• First life (just some chemical systems which had a different eating system) was
• eating other life (which I presume also had a different eating system) until
• they became more complex and chaotic

Sorry if I miss the answer to WHAT DID THE FIRST life eat?

Could it be the FIRST life eating different eating system be eating chemicals (raw chemicals - un alive chemicals - never was alive chemicals - so never went dead chemicals)

All of those would qualify as a different eating system

Really I am still looking for god to breathe "the breath of life" into the chemicals

Personally I accept the chemical life (with the different eating system evolves into more complex systems in a smooth transition right up to us

(which is a very anthropentric concept btw)*

MirriamWebester

an·thro·po·cen·tric
\ˌan(t)-thrə-pə-ˈsen-trik\
adjective

• 1: considering human beings as the most significant entity of the universe
• 2: interpreting or regardingt he world interms of human values and experiences

*I would hope so considering we followed Number 2 definition

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You only asked what is order. There is local order created in some chemical reactions.

With regard to life creating order, you are moving the goalposts. You want us to explain how life can both spontaneously arise out of nothing (abiogenesis) AND then create order. These are two separate processes. Yes, I believe life arose out of chemistry. After that happened, it was able to sustain a metabolism that turned random energy into orderly structure.

 

You sure there is not a gap there (where you have the big AND)?

Does not have to be a big gap

Lots and lots of people can tell you what would fit in the gap

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It's not a gap in truth, the first life was also the first life driven order. But he's asking how you put non-living chemicals in one place and then have order spontaneously arise. One process took a very long time to occur, the other is what life does inherently.

 

The little guys in the axenic cultures were not extremophiles - they were among the most common organisms on the surface of the planet, populating the most widespread ecosystems known at the time.

Every step and minute of which contradicts your claim that living beings do not create complex order from simpler and less orderly components.

And they create more, by the billions, using simple chemicals and sunlight.

They create the ATP and NADPH also.

For the fourth or fifth time: Of course. The 2nd Law applies all the way up. There is no "gap".
How many times does that have to be posted in front of your eyes?