Whence comes logic

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Speakpigeon, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    is "thought" a dissability ?[etc...](arguementative, could awarenes be defined as an interruption in logic)
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    We can have a defective brain which would affect the logical thinking process.
    Alzheimers does qualify as a disability in thought processes.

    Seth proposes that "observation" (mental processing of external information) is a form of "controlled hallucination" and only when we get confirmation from others can we be reasonably sure that our own perception of reality is correct.

    One of the reasons why mainstream scientific theories must be accepted by concensus, but even then additional information may falsify the theory.
    Newton was correct at local scales, but Einstein added to the basic theory and made it more complete.
    Google.
     
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  5. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    [passing thought] [mechanics] lack-of vs no function ? non functional has no logic value ? (etc...)

    generaly i never say what im studying but since you cross its path.
    subconscious narcissistic defence as a formative self actualisation of social cultural normalisation.
     
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  7. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly: emotioal/instinctive/reflexive behaviour; not reasoning behaviour. All animals have these non-cognitive attributes, and need them, because reasoning takes time that we don't always have available before reacting to danger. The stampede makes sense in this context. The cliff, if present, is a piece of information the herd might have acquired in time, but did not possess at the moment of reaction, so their subconscious calculations did not take it into account. (Which is why the humans, being more intelligent, deliberately drove them in that direction.)
    To what question?

    No, this is a different psychological phenomenon. Humans are able to compartmentalize and rationalize. Pigs are one class of thing; pork is quite another. Lamb, oddly enough, in various depictions, is a sweet personification of the virtue of innocence (There are four things seriously wrong with that phrase.) and the food product it becomes after a rather gruesome process has the same name, and yet is regarded quite differently. This ability to detach object from meaning and concept from function is - I believe - exclusively human.
    Just as well, too: we've been losing our uniqueness in all the other areas we used to claim. You know how humans hate not being special!
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Our perceived uniqueness is also causal to our woes. We believe we are exempt from natural logical constraints.
    Scripture is a perfect example of this. "made in His image"? Please, spare me the hubris.

    But humans also are herd animals and when exposed to stress groups act as a single body, often called a "mob psychology".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_psychology

    The "mirror function" (involuntary empathic responses)?
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
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  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Good question. You're making me work...

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-valued_logic
    .
     
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  10. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Ah, but what a great tool for crowd-control!

    Not herd animals - pack animals. More like predators than prey: the human mob tends to attack, rather than run away. (except, of course, in panic response, as to fire or gunshots, but that fear reaction would be much the same if each individual were alone.) The size of the mob - and the perceived confidence of the leader - matters substantially when the driving emotion is aggressive - anger, greed, pride, defense of the tribe or property, etc.
    This attribute is very useful in building team spirit for tasks that require courage, perseverance and co-ordination of effort. But keeping it under civilized control is difficult. Hence, religious and patriotic ritual to formalize the actions and install trigger-words in the psyche of the pack, so that they'll respond to commands, rather than go off in random directions.
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, and if you think about it, it is a logical contradiction.

    Reminds me of the old NAZI proclamation; "Arbeit macht frei"! or "Work (in a concentration camp) sets you free"!
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    "Give us your poor huddled masses" would suggest a herd mentality.
    OTOH, "We must build a wall to keep the predatory pack (mothers and children) outside our borders from "invading" the US, would suggest the other.

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  13. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    It might suggest that, but the masses didn't write it - a single individual, looking down on them from a privileged position did.It doesn't describe their mentality; it describes their condition at a particular juncture.
    Prejudiced labelling doesn't describe the real attributes of anything - not the proletariat, not Wall street, not a nation of shopkeepers, not the free market...
    A collective description of a group of anything, by any individual, inside or outside of that group, should be cautiously examined for booby-traps before accepting as accurate.
     
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  14. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    And Orwell's linguistic exercises in his political novels.
    Yes, religion does exactly that: tell the little man: "You are unique and precious. Now, kneel and kiss my...." ring, robe, floor, foot, whatever
     
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  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I keep it simple, human societies are build on three philosophical levels. 1/3 Progressives, 1/3 Moderates, and 1/3 Conservatives, each with their own justifications, which are not necessarily logical.
     
  16. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    They may not conform to Boolian, algebraic logical equations (i.e. conceptual frills) but they make a roughly applicable sense on the ground.
    Too, in any given time period, if you listen to the rhetoric, (linguistic frills) the proportion will seem to change (more conservatives now; more moderates in 1995, more progressives in 1970) but remain constant in active principles. Tactics change, though, and that also skews the perception of who belongs in what category.
     
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  17. Speakpigeon Valued Senior Member

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    Various logical rules have been discussed before Aristotle but Aristotle seems to have been the first to understand the unity of the subject. I don't see why he shouldn't be regarded as the originator of the field of logic.
    I agree.
    May seem obvious but apparently not to all.
    EB
     
  18. Speakpigeon Valued Senior Member

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    I agree but potentially a proper calculus would be a significant progress. Leibnitz looked for one. Boolean algebra, a calculus applying to subset of formal logic, applies readily to the intimate working of computers. Since the 50's, machines, theorem provers, produce formal proofs for theorems, something mathematicians almost never do. So, perhaps, not exactly "mere frills".
    EB
     
  19. river

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    Logic comes from reason(ing) .

    Logic is about being focused on a particular point of any reasoning .
     
  20. Speakpigeon Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, exactly, and this is exactly why I would say that logic is an empirical science, not just a potential mathematical theory. It seems we're not quite there yet. Aristotle produced a first formal system based on his observation, probably both of his own mind and of the occasional discussion of logical questions in the literature. Followed by 2,300 years without much. Then Boolean algebra. Then Gentzen's excellent formal method of proof which is just a generalisation of Aristotle. All this seems to have been based on the observation of how the human mind reasons.
    EB
     
  21. Speakpigeon Valued Senior Member

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    I would say the exact opposite. Reasoning is formal thinking which tries to comply with our logical intuitions. Nobody tries to reason illogically. And one can certainly do a bad job of it.
    I don't see that any particular point of reasoning could possibly be done without trying to do it logically. Each of us has to rely on his own sense of logic, some may take advantage of their training in formal logic but using formal logic requires one to have first a sense of logic. Without logical intuition, nobody could make sense of formal logic. So, our logical intuitions come first. No intuitive sense of logic, no reasoning.
    EB
     
  22. river

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    Disagree

    Inotherwords , reasoning gathers in knowledge , logic does not .
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Logic is complete, reasoning becomes more logical depending on gathering knowledge.
    Difference perspectives with common "logical" denominators
     

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