Mansfield helicopter ufo incident

Discussion in 'UFOs, Ghosts and Monsters' started by Magical Realist, Oct 23, 2017.

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  1. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Ok..I found what is closest to Hynek's recorded account. It is a book written by his assistant Jenny Ziedman, Here's are some details of her report.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/is-there-credible-evidence-for-ufos_us_5825ea50e4b02b1f5257a03d

    Note she has this quote from Jezzi:

    “It was an exceedingly clear night out and it blotted out the stars,” said Jezzi. Coyne reported, “You could see reflections of the red and green off the structure itself.”

    So that pretty much blows out the water your narrative of the Jezzi not seeing the craft. Read the rest of the article where she addresses the bullshit Klass spouts about this case.

    It's in the article you linked to. Don't you read the stuff you link to?

    http://www.clevelandufo.com/?page_id=18

    It's in the caption of the drawing. I already linked you to it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
    Magical Realist, Oct 30, 2017
    #121

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  3. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    More relevant points from Klass, as detailed here:

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/is-there-credible-evidence-for-ufos_us_5825ea50e4b02b1f5257a03d
    • Over the years, the four crew members varied their estimates of how long it took for the light to move from the right to being in front and above the helicopter, as well as the time it took to disappear.
    • Coyne may have been in a panic when he thought he was 1,700 feet above sea level (which is what an altimeter measures), which would mean he only had seconds before a crash, since Mansfield is 1,400 feet above sea level. He then subconsciously changed the direction to ascend.
    • Yanacsek's "red light" could possibly have been a radio tower.
    • Healey and Yanacsek may have been relying on Coyne for their description of the UFO, since it was out of their line of sight.
    There are contrary responses to these suggestions in the above article.
     
    James R, Oct 30, 2017
    #122

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  5. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Having spent some time searching, it looks to me like there's very little documentation on the internet that is any use in examining this case. Many copies of essentially the same material is available on many UFO believer sites - often sloppily uncredited, it must be said. There appear to be very few "original" documents of any kind available, and most of the most pertinent ones I have already linked to above.

    It would be nice to have access to the text of Klass's two published books that refers to the incident, so we could see his full analysis of the case, made at the time, but this is not freely available on the internet as far as I can tell.

    I assume that Magical Realist will be able to produce nothing other than what has already been referred to, and that he is primarily relying on sensationalist youtube videos to draw his conclusions about the case, as usual.

    If you have anything else of substance to post, MR, please post it so we can consider it.
     
    James R, Oct 30, 2017
    #123

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  7. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Oh lookie. The NICAP report is by Jenny Zeidman, Hynek's assistant. It is precisely the same as the one you linked to.

    http://www.clevelandufo.com/?page_id=18


    The one that said all three pilots saw a craft with colored lights, etc. She even mentions ground witnesses who see it--the mother with her kids in the car who saw the green light lighting up the trees and everything. So much for your years later ground witness account claim.

    http://www.nicap.org/reports/731018mansfield_report.htm
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
    Magical Realist, Oct 30, 2017
    #124
  8. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    I think I resolved the misunderstanding about the helicopter speed reported by Jezzi. I think a journalist misinterpreted what he said. Here's what he said originally per the NICAP report by Jenny Zeidie:

    "Jezzi said it moved faster than the 250-knot limit for aircraft below 10,000 feet, but not as fast as the 600-knot approach speed reported by the others"

    What he meant is that it was twice the speed for the aircraft speed limit below 10,000 ft. Get it? Got it? Good. Just as I suspected. A trifle.

    Source:

    http://www.nicap.org/reports/731018mansfield_report.htm
     
    Magical Realist, Oct 30, 2017
    #125
  9. Kittamaru

    Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    For starters, the fact that he provided a speed estimate almost double the maximum safe speed of the helicopter in question, for starters? Or that he provided a speed that is, quite nearly, the maximum speed limit for any helicopter, due to physics?

    This just further erodes the credibility of your "sources", because they, apparently, cannot even quote someone correctly.

    This begs the question... are you actually incapable of understanding this point, and why it is important regarding the credibility of the story (in which case, I dare say, you would be a clear and present danger to yourself and others) or are you simply being disingenuous, choosing to dishonestly ignore facts that don't align to your desired narrative. This new habit of calling important little details a "trifle" is equal parts pathetic and hilarious in its showing of poor ethics.

    Given your past patterns of behavior, the answer seems rather obvious to me.
     
    Kittamaru, Oct 30, 2017
    #126
  10. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Another eyewitness to the Mansfield ufo:

    "Related evidence comes from an airline pilot who (in the Mansfield area, about 1.5 hours before the helicopter event) reported unidentified traffic that had the appearance of a strong blue-green light source traveling at an altitude of about 30,000 feet. Cleveland ATC could not detect any object painting an image on their radar screens and so were unable to identify the object."---http://ufomig.yolasite.com/vehicle-interference-5.php
     
    Magical Realist, Oct 30, 2017
    #127
  11. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    IOW, you came up with nothing to debunk this case beyond lies that the other three pilots besides Coyne didn't see or describe the structure of the craft, lies that Coyne made up details later on even though the earliest reports contain those details, lies that the ground eyewitnesses all just made up their accounts or had false memories, lies about a meteor lasting the 5 minutes it took for this encounter to occur, and lies that a meteor wouldn't be seen over dozens of cities in Ohio that night and so reported in numerous news outlets the next day. You have nothing. Zilch. Nada. Naught. And neither did Klass. I don't blame you for running off with your tail between your legs. I just didn't expect it so soon.

    Here is one of those early reports I referred to before that contain details about the lights and structure of the craft James claims Coyne just sort of made up later in order to be famous. As if anyone wants to be famous for encountering a ufo. Such eyewitnesses end up being ridiculed and harrassed so much that they often have to go off the radar just to live their normal lives. These brave people should be applauded for sticking to their stories and speaking freely about it in public.

    The Mansfield News Journal on November 4, 1973

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    UH -1 HueyUFOs in the daily Press:
    THE COYNE INCIDENT, MANSFIELD, OHIO, 1793 IN THE PRESS:
    The article underneath was published in the local daily newspaper The Mansfield News Journal on November 4, 1973; it was written by a United Press International reporter. Incident named after pilot

    "CLEVELAND -- Army Reserve helicopter pilot Capt. Lawrence Coyne is a military commander who doesn't believe in unidentified flying objects (UFOs) or little green spacemen.
    But after a near miss two weeks ago between his helicopter and a "big, gray, metallic-looking" object in the sky over Mansfield, he doesn't know what to think.

    "I had to file an official report in detail to the Army on this thing," he said.

    "Coyne is a member of the 316th Medical Detachment stationed at Cleveland Hopkins Airport. He was returning from Columbus at 11:10 p.m., Oct. 18, when the UFO showed up near where the Air National Guard has a squadron of jet fighters based.

    He said a check turned up that none of the unit's F-100 Super Saber Jets were in the air when the UFO appeared.

    Coyne said when he first encountered the UFO, his helicopter was cruising at 2,500 feet. He had the controls set for a 20-degree dive, but the craft climbed to 3,500 feet with no power.

    "I had made no attempt to pull up," he said. "There was no noise or turbulence, either."

    Coyne said a red light appeared on the eastern horizon, and was first spotted by his crew chief, Sgt. Robert Yanacsek.

    "The light was traveling in excess of 600 knots," Coyne said. "It came from the horizon to our aircraft in about 10 seconds. We were on a collision course."

    The pilot said he put his helicopter into a dive.

    "At 1,700 feet I braced myself for the impact with the other craft," he said. "It was coming from our right side. I was scared. There had been so little time to respond. The thing was terrifically fast."
    There was no crash.

    "We looked up and saw it stopped right over us," Coyne said. "It had a big, gray metallic-looking hull about 60 feet long."

    "It was shaped like an airfoil or a streamlined fat cigar. There was a red light on the front. The leading edge glowed red a short distance back from the nose. There was a center dome. A green light at the rear reflected on the hull."

    Coyne said the green light swiveled like a spotlight and beamed through the canopy of his craft, bathing the cabin in green light.

    He said as he and members of the crew stared at the craft his helicopter began to climb without his guidance.

    "I had made no attempt to pull up," he said. "All controls were set for a 20-degree dive. Yet we had climbed from 1,700 to 3,500 feet with no power in a couple of seconds with no g-forces or other noticeable strains."

    Coyne said the UFO finally moved off to the west and was gone."

    http://www.thelivingmoon.com/49ufo_files/03files2/1973_Lawrence_Coyne_UFO_Helicopter_Case.html
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
    Magical Realist, Oct 30, 2017
    #128
  12. Michael 345

    Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Can someone please check my maths on this nugget of information

    ...... climbed from 1,700 to 3,500 feet .......in a couple of seconds.......no g-forces.....

    equates to about 988 klm per hour

    Did I get that right?

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    Michael 345, Oct 30, 2017
    #129
  13. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    I just found an excerpt of the interview Hynek had with Jezzi. In it Jezzi says he only saw the white light, and not the craft itself. I'm thinking he was probably blinded by the white light. But then he describes the conversation in the helicopter immediately after the object disappeared. He says they were talking about the multicolored lights and the cigar shape it had and how it had hovered over them. Here we have direct confirmation by Jezzi himself that all the other crew members saw the structure of the craft at that point and certainly did not fabricate something later on. Furthermore we have a newpaper reporter interviewing the pilots the next day with 2 matching drawings by 2 of the pilots drawn independently and the one they both had drawn for them by their own specifications. The structure and lights were clearly given at that point, both in the drawings and the Cleveland newspaper interview. This can be found a few paragraphs down from the quoted text of the book,

    Why was the structure and lights of craft not described in the Army report they all 4 signed?I'm thinking they left out that part because Jezzi wouldn't confirm it. The report was essentially what they all 4 could agree on seeing since they all 4 had to sign it.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=E0jymdfEFM4C&pg=PT251&lpg=PT251&dq="I recall Coyne's comment about the different light colorations"&source=bl&ots=ERTKkKhm05&sig=GKGlzMTxoPnz2lPgGjSWhNaJtbY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj56K6o5ZnXAhUpiVQKHZGOB9sQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q="I recall Coyne's comment about the different light colorations"&f=false
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
    Magical Realist, Oct 31, 2017
    #130
  14. Michael 345

    Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Did they all agree that the helicopter

    ...... climbed from 1,700 to 3,500 feet .......in a couple of seconds.......no g-forces.....?

    And did I get the maths correct in that those figures translate to about 988 klm per hour?

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    Michael 345, Oct 31, 2017
    #131
  15. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Here's a filmed interview with Coyne, Jezzi, and who I assume is Yanacek. It looks to be right after the incident. Jezzi explains why he couldn't see the initial red light approaching. All men come off as totally credible and honest.

     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
    Magical Realist, Oct 31, 2017
    #132
  16. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Interesting.

    It's possible, but you're just assuming that. It could have been weeks or months later, for all you know. Who is the interviewer?

    Yes.

    The third guy (Yanacsek?) doesn't say anything. Coyne does most of the talking. But, yes, they come across as honest about what they think they saw.

    A few points struck me as interesting. One was Coyne's description of the red light "pacing" the aircraft. If that light was actually much further away then he assumed it was, then it would certainly appear to pace the aircraft, just like the moon seems to float along beside you when you're driving in a car at night, keeping pace no matter what the car does. The description fits a red light on the horizon - either a ground object or some other object in flight (e.g. an aeroplane, or possibly even a meteor).

    Another point was Coyne's estimate of the timing of the part where the green light "hovered", which he describes as "a few seconds". In situations of stress, people generally don't keep very good track of time unless they are actually watching a clock or something. For example, events can subjectively feel like they are spooling out at a slower rate than they really are. People often describe fearful situations as being "as if everything was happening in slow motion", which makes sense because the adrenalin is rushing through them and they are often in the middle of a fight-or-flight response.

    The description of a "metallic" object with "windows" and so suggests that this interview probably occurred some time after the event. This is because Coyne originally described no such thing - it was Yanacsek who I believe originally said he could see a suggestion of windows on the object. I think that by the time this interview happened, all of the crew members would have been well aware of what each of their crewmates had put on the record. Memory being what it is, it is unremarkable that they would start to incorporate elements of others' testimony into their own accounts of the incident; they could easily imagine that they, too, saw the same thing.

    One other minor thing - look at Jezzi's body language during the interview. Arms crossed, somewhat defensive. I get the impression that he didn't really want to be there for that interview. My general impression is that he, of the four, was the most doubtful about what had actually occurred, and I think he could see that the story was being gradually embellished every time it was retold.
     
    James R, Oct 31, 2017
    #133
  17. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Do you think I set out to "debunk" it?

    I don't know about you, but I didn't come into this expecting I would blow open a case that has not been completely explained in 40 years.

    What I have done is to highlight a different side of a story that you can read over and over again on UFO believer sites. In fact, it strikes me as very interesting that so many UFO sites seem to spend most of their time republishing material that is available elsewhere, without ever trying to add anything of their own in terms of analysis or investigation. They seem content to simply admire the case as an unsolved mystery, then, like yourself, move on to appreciate the next shiny bauble. Do UFO believers actually have no interest in getting to the bottom of what happened in such cases?

    This is a straw man of what I have said.

    Later interviews with Coyne (especially ones he has given in recent years) are far more specific and elaborate about what he saw than any of his earliest interviews. Check it out for yourself on youtube. Over the years, his story has grown in the retelling. Moreover, he now describes what he saw as a "craft" with a "pilot" and so on and so forth, without hesitation, which is quite different to what he said at the start. It's understandable. UFO believers applaud him - even pay him - to tell them what they want to hear.

    Again, something of a straw man. If you want to discuss each ground witness one by one, we could do that. You can't just lump them all in together, because the circumstances and information from each are different.

    I'm not sure where you get 5 minutes from. Also, I have not said it was a meteor. In fact, it needn't have been just one thing. We learned that lesson when we discussed the Portland County UFO case, did we not?

    Meteors come in all shapes and sizes. Nothing in the report of the incident appears to require anything to be visible over dozens of cities in Ohio etc. That is hyperbole on your part.

    I have a few plausible suggestions. Obviously, I have no new evidence about a case that occurred in a different country from where I am over 40 years ago. And neither do you have any smoking gun that proves this was aliens, like you think it is.

    Klass, at least, had the advantage of being there to interview witnesses and chase up evidence at the time. There's no reason to downplay his investigation of the incident and up play up the investigation of NICAP or Mufon or whoever - unless you're biased and you only want to hear one side of the story.

    I'm not running anywhere. This is an ongoing discussion, is it not?

    Please note that at no time have I accused Coyne of deliberate, calculated dishonesty. I have very little doubt that he honestly believes he saw what he describes - including all the embellishments he has added over the years.

    He had an unusual experience and he interpreted it in a particular way. There's no blame attached to that.

    You're being disingenuous. In the particular subculture of UFO believers, people do gain a certain fame for having what is thought to be a "good" encounter - one that includes juicy details that seem difficult or impossible to explain away.

    If only it were true that everybody who claims to have seen an alien spaceship was as altruistically motivated as you would have us believe. Unfortunately, when there are things to be gained by telling lies, or embellishing the truth, or putting a certain spin on the facts, there are plenty of people who will jump at the opportunity.
     
    James R, Nov 1, 2017
    #134
  18. Michael 345

    Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    There's a book that's been around for about 2,000 years and has grown in the telling
    If only I could remember it's name
    Think it begins with a B something something something E

    Oh and any comment on

    Did they all agree that the helicopter

    ...... climbed from 1,700 to 3,500 feet .......in a couple of seconds.......no g-forces.....?

    And did I get the maths correct in that those figures translate to about 988 klm per hour?

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    Michael 345, Nov 1, 2017
    #135
  19. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Yes. For comparison, that speed is not very far below the speed of sound.
     
    James R, Nov 1, 2017
    #136
  20. Michael 345

    Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Did you like the .......no g-forces.....?

    I get G forces from 0 - 10klm on my 250cc motorbike

    0 - 998 klm in 2 secs and no G forces. Some killer technology there

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    Michael 345, Nov 1, 2017
    #137
  21. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    We'd expect a force equivalent to at least 14 G in those circumstances.

    Of course, you're forgetting that alien spacecraft have magical technology that lets them control gravity and thus dispense with g-forces.
     
    James R, Nov 1, 2017
    #138
  22. Michael 345

    Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Great

    You obviously know much about ....alien spacecraft have magical technology that lets them control gravity .....

    So what did NASA say when you explained to them how this magical technology works?

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    Michael 345, Nov 1, 2017
    #139
  23. river

    river

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    Not magical technology , though it may seem too many as such .

    To Those who have been researching anti-gravity technology , no surprise here .

    The craft has its own gravity field . Therefore it is not affected by any other gravity field, from outside the craft .

    So speeds of 2000mph , is mph of , 33.33 miles per minute , or 0.555 miles per second .

    Anyway .
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
    river, Nov 1, 2017
    #140
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