Aung San Suu Kyi.. The Fall of a Human Rights Icon..

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Bells, Sep 15, 2017.

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  1. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Bells
    Are you banning/censoring me from starting and running a new thread on Arakan Independence at sciforums.com?
     
    Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2017
    #181

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  3. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    You are making a statement of fact, without any evidence to support it. Not to mention the fact that you are spouting the same propaganda that is being used as a justification for ethnic cleansing and genocide. If your opinion is that they plan to establish an Islamic Caliphate in the Rakhine State, then you must have some proof or evidence to have helped you formulate that opinion.

    As for your link for independence for the State of Arakan.. Do you even read what you post?

    Nowhere, absolutely nowhere in that link does it state or even allude to the Rohingya wanting independence or to establish an Islamic Caliphate.

    But you weren't stating an opinion. You have only resorted to that argument because you erroneously believe that Article 18 of the UDHR grants you that right. Article 18 of the UDHR refers to religious freedoms and opinions and views, that people are free to worship as they wish and choose to.

    You are fully entitled to your opinion. But when you make statements of fact, such as the Rohingya's goal is independence within Burma and their desire to establish an Islamic Caliphate within Burma, you need to be able to support said opinion with evidence.

    The irony is that you keep demanding evidence from everyone else, but you refuse to provide any to support your "opinions".

    See, this is the type of rubbish I have been talking about.

    You need to back up your claims/opinions/statements.. And if you wish to spread propaganda and rubbish like this:

    If it imitates the propaganda you speak of then perhaps you need to ask yourself whether it is indeed propaganda?​

    What? Are you suggesting that it is the truth? That it is not propaganda because it is the truth?

    It is pure intellectual dishonesty.

    You can have whatever opinion you wish to have. You are, however, expected to back up your claims with evidence to support what you post.

    As was clearly stated at the start and throughout this thread, no one expects her to control the military. The most basic expectation is that she does not use her office and her position to condone and lie to cover for the military who are committing these horrific acts of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Instead, she has gone out of her way to become complicit in what the military are doing by condoning it, denying it is happening, and lying about it.

    No. I am asking you to stop derailing this thread with unsubstantiated bullshit and I am asking you to support your stance with evidence and now I have had to start asking you to not attempt to blackmail the staff because you have been asked repeatedly to support your argument and failure to do so could very well see you moderated.
     
    Bells, Sep 25, 2017
    #182

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  5. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    but if supporting my opinion means that I am derailing your thread then what?
    When simply expressing an opinion is considered as derailing your thread.

    I have stated a contrary opinion to yours.. fact.
    I am prepared to support it. Fact.
    But I am unable to do so with you considering me as derailing your thread...and being falsely accused of spewing propaganda.


    What we agree about:
    • There is ample evidence that ethnic cleansing by way of forced relocation, and genocide ( and other) is currently underway in Myanmar.
    • There is ample evidence to state that Myanmar military, local militia and the ethnic Buddhist population are significantly involved.
    • There is ample evidence that Aung has deliberately avoided recognizing the rights of the Rohingya to be considered as full citizens of Myanmar and has failed to take public action to prevent or stop the actions of the military...

    What we do not agree on is:
    • Aung's motivation for her puzzling and dis-appointing behavior.
    • Aung's pivotal role in maintaining any semblance of order in Myanmar and preventing the ultimate and complete genocide of all Myanmar Muslims.
    • That the Rohingya are seeking self determination in a political sense by securing Arakan independence. ( ARNO appear not to be seeking Myanmar citizenship but are seeking self determination - meaning citizenship of Arakan)

    the above is far from conclusive and is merely an opinion.. would you like to add to the list...?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
    Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2017
    #183

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  7. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    you need to be more careful in your assessment:

    there is a long and painful history of insurgency driving for autonomy of the Arakan region by the Rohingya
    wiki link
    1940 onwards
    Rakhine (Arakan) was the site of many battles during the Second World War, most notably the Arakan Campaign 1942-1943 and the Battle of Ramree Island. Arakan became part of the newly independent Union of Burma in 1948 and the three districts became Arakan Division. From the 1950s, there was a growing movement for secession and restoration of Arakan independence. In part to appease this sentiment, in 1974, the socialist government under General Ne Win constituted Rakhine State from Arakan Division giving at least nominal acknowledgment of the regional majority of the Rakhine people.​
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
    Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2017
    #184
  8. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Further evidence of the call for autonomy succession of the Arakan

    wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_insurgency_in_Western_Myanmar

    The Rohingya insurgency in Western Myanmar is an ongoing insurgency in northern Rakhine State, Myanmar (formerly known as Arakan, Burma), waged by insurgents belonging to the Rohingya ethnic minority. Most clashes have occurred in the Maungdaw District, which borders Bangladesh.

    The conflict in the region arises chiefly from social differentiation and conflict between Rohingya Muslims and local Rakhine Buddhists. During World War II in Burma (present-day Myanmar), Rohingya Muslims (allied with the British and promised a Muslim state in return) fought against local Rakhine Buddhists, who were allied with the Japanese. Following independence in 1948, the newly formed union government of the predominantly-Buddhist country denied citizenship to the Rohingya, subjecting them to extensive legal discrimination in the country, widely compared to apartheid by many international academics and analysts.[24][25][26][27][28][29][excessive citations]

    From 1947 to 1961, local Rohingya mujahideen fought government forces in an attempt to have the mostly Rohingya populated region around the Mayu peninsula in northern Arakan (present-day Rahkine State) gain autonomy or secede, so it could be annexed by East Pakistan (present-day Bangladesh).[30] During the late 1950s and early 1960s, the mujahideen lost most of its momentum and support, resulting in most of them surrendering to government forces.[31][32]

    In the 1970s Rohingya Islamist movements began to emerge from remnants of the mujahideen, and the fighting culminated with the Burmese government launching a massive military operation named Operation King Dragon in 1978.[33] In the 1990s, the well-armed Rohingya Solidarity Organisation was the main perpetrator of attacks on Burmese authorities near the Myanmar–Bangladesh border.[34]

    In October 2016, clashes erupted on the Myanmar–Bangladesh border between government security forces and a new insurgent group, Harakah al-Yaqin, resulting in the deaths of at least 40 people (excluding civilians).[35][36][37] It was the first major resurgence of the conflict since 2001.[2] In November 2016, violence erupted again, bringing the death toll to 134.[11]

    During the early hours of 25 August 2017, up to 150 insurgents launched coordinated attacks on 24 police posts and the 552nd Light Infantry Battalion army base in Rakhine State, leaving 71 dead (12 security personnel and 59 insurgents). It was the first major attack by Rohingya insurgents since November 2016.[38][21][39]​
     
    Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2017
    #185
  9. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    You do realise that your own quote does not support your assertion that they are [currently] seeking independence and wish to establish an Islamic Caliphate. You even attributed these claims to a group who have specifically stated the complete opposite to what you claim they have said...?
     
    Bells, Sep 25, 2017
    #186
  10. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    You have specifically argued throughout the thread that you do not believe it is a genocide.

    Have you now changed your mind?

    You have argued that the military doing this is a rogue element, have you now changed your mind about that too?

    No, we do not agree on those things. As I have noted, you have spent pages and pages spouting propaganda, mocking the victims of the genocide and ethnic cleansing, casting doubt on what they are suffering and you have made spurious allegations (which is the exact propaganda being spouted in Myanmar to support said genocide and ethnic cleansing) that they are seeking independence and wish to establish an Islamic Caliphate, not to mention your comments that the Burmese Buddhists are in danger because Indonesia has a population of over 200 million Muslims.

    As I have noted, QQ, you are free to your opinions. But when you state such opinions as though they are factual, when you create lies and attribute it to groups who have said the complete opposite to what you have attributed directly to them, then you need to be able to back that up. Take for example this:
    Which is a complete fabrication and lie. They have not stated that this is a part of their agenda. They have said the complete opposite. That they wish to become citizens of Myanmar and be granted equal rights as citizens of Myanmar.

    But you said this complete lie and then spiraled into this .. thing.. arguing that they want independence, want to create their own state and want to establish an Islamic Caliphate.. All of which is based on something you invented. When challenged and told to stop spreading this kind of idiotic and false lie and propaganda (that is literally getting people killed and driven from their homes), you have the temerity to claim that it is just an opinion? You don't get to attribute lies to other people and claim that this is what they have said, and then resort to 'oh, it's just an opinion'.. It is inherently dishonest and frankly, poor form.

    You say that the "Rohingya are seeing self determination in a political sense by securing Arakan independence" - which is not only false, based solely on your own lies and imagination, you have moved the goal post yet again.. If they are, then prove it. Stop attributing dangerous rhetoric and propaganda against a persecuted group and then claim 'oh, it's just an opinion' like some kind of ninny. Support your position and argument with links.
     
    Bells, Sep 25, 2017
    #187
  11. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    QQ:

    A reminder of our site rules regarding propaganda:

    21. Propaganda is loosely defined here as posts that have no aim other than to proclaim the superiority of one belief over another, particularly where the belief in question is the subject of controversy or argument. Examples include preaching one’s own religion as the only true religion, proclaiming that one’s favoured political party is superior to the opposing party, or proclaiming that one group is morally superior to another. The signature of propaganda is that it consists largely of a member expressing strongly held personal beliefs about things that can’t be proven, supposedly in the interests of achieving some important aim (e.g. world peace, governing the nation effectively, ensuring that people act morally).

    I22. Propaganda wars are similar to flame wars, except in that they ostensibly involve argument about a topic. They are typically characterised by zealots on both sides of the argument who have no intention of listening to the opposing point of view, let alone possibly changing their minds. The result is invariably that members become frustrated and spin-off complaints to the moderators become rife.

    ---
    On reading through this thread, it seems to me that Bells has been supporting her arguments with links to appropriate sources and expert opinion. In contrast, you have actually stated that your arguments are simply based on your own opinion. Sure, you claim to have read widely on the topic, but if so then where are your references?

    You need to support your argument with sources, particularly in regard to the more contentious claims you have made. For example, you have claimed that that the Rohingya want to establish a Muslim caliphate in Myanmar. You might want to start by supporting that claim, or retracting it.
     
    James R, Sep 25, 2017
    #188
  12. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I have reported you Bells..
    You have been lying through your back teeth...long enough
     
    Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2017
    #189
  13. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    utterly false..
    here is the content of the link
    please indicate where they are seeking citizenship of Myanmar?
    but thanks for the link, the web site is worth a read all the same...

    ABOUT ARNO

    Arakan Rohingya National Organisation (ARNO) is one of the representative organisations of the Rohingya people of Arakan, Burma, based in London, the United Kingdom. It is a broad based Organisation of the Rohingya People that emerged in 1998. It is one of the Founding member of Arakan Rohingya Union which was formed with the initiative of Euro-Burma Office and Organisation of Islamic Co-operation (OIC)



    THE AIMS AND OBJECTIVE, POLICES AND PROGRAMMES (ABRIDGED) OF THE ARNO ARE:


    The right of ‘self-determination’ of the Rohingya people within the Burmese federation; preservation of their (Rohingya’s) history and cultural heritage without prejudice to the growth and preservation of other religious and indigenous culture in Arakan; condemnation of religious persecution by the military; repatriation of Rohingya refugees from their places of refuge; human resource development particularly in socio-cultural, economic, educational and technical fields; establishment of a welfare society based on equality, liberty, democracy, human rights and freedom for all peoples; “peaceful co-existence” with Rakhine community (Buddhist of Arakan) and among all other peoples in Arakan as well as in the whole of the country; joint struggle with the Burmese opposition and democratic forces; support to landmine ban treaty; support of the rights of Rohingya women and girls to education, health and economic empowerment; educating the youths of the dangers of drugs (including AIDS infection); protection of environment, including forests, rivers, wetland, Coastline Ocean and to save their land from unsustainable logging, killing of endangered species, all forms of pollution, and over fishing and to preserve a green haven for their children and the world; support for future sustainable, appropriate, clean, and beneficial development to the common people.”


    ARNO is working together with all parties and important civil society organisations of the Rohingya people at home and aboard and also with Burmese Organisations. It is working with British Foreign and Common Wealth Office and Parliamentary Committee on Burma and European Parliament. It maintains a close relation with Amnesty International, Asia Watch, Burma Campaign U.K and many other human rights and humanitarian organisations in Europe, USA and Asia. It is closely working together with Burma Democracy movement, ethnic nationalities forums and support groups. In addition ARNO is actively working together with Euro-Burma Office in Brussels (Belgium) and National Reconciliation Programme (NRP) of the Union of Burma. ARNO carries out various socio-cultural, economic and education uplift programmes and human resource development among the Rohingya people.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
    Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2017
    #190
  14. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you James R
     
    Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2017
    #191
  15. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    It has been supported many times... but here it is again.

    The rational:

    ARNO as mentioned above seeks among other things
    Self determination for the Rohingya peoples. see : Bells link
    Self determination in a political arena means self government. see post #153 & wiki link
    Self government for a large Muslim community means the establishment of Sharia law. Common knowledge
    The region that has the establishment of Sharia law, for a self determining Muslim community is commonly referred to as a caliphate. see link for general explanation.

    ** perhaps using the word caliphate is too alarming to some, however autonomy /self determination/ independence is what is being sought. Self governing means self rule, self rule to a Muslim mean Sharia Law.

    Should I retract it?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
    Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2017
    #192
  16. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Further there is a long and bloody history of insurgency ( Islamist terrorism**) in Arakan state. ( Rakhine )
    **terrorism as defined by the FBI (link supplied if necessary)
    see: wiki link
    The latest attack being carried out:
    On 9 October 2016, hundreds of unidentified insurgents attacked three Burmese border posts along Myanmar's border with Bangladesh.[65] According to government officials in the mainly Rohingya border town of Maungdaw, the attackers brandished knives, machetes and homemade slingshots that fired metal bolts. Several dozen firearms and boxes of ammunition were looted by the attackers from the border posts. The attack resulted in the deaths of nine border officers.[36] On 11 October 2016, four soldiers were killed on the third day of fighting.[37] Following the attacks, reports emerged of several human rights violations allegedly perpetrated by Burmese security forces in their crackdown on suspected Rohingya insurgents.[66]

    Government officials in Rakhine State originally blamed the RSO, an Islamist insurgent group mainly active in the 1980s and 1990s, for the attacks;[67] however, on 17 October 2016, a group calling itself Harakah al-Yaqin (Faith Movement in English) claimed responsibility.[68] In the following days, six other groups released statements, all citing the same leader.[69]

    The Myanmar Army announced on 15 November 2016 that 69 Rohingya insurgents and 17 security forces (10 policemen, 7 soldiers) had been killed in recent clashes in northern Rakhine State, bringing the death toll to 134 (102 insurgents and 32 security forces). It was also announced that 234 people suspected of being connected to the attack were arrested​
     
    Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2017
    #193
  17. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    So have I supported my opinion as stated in post#172?
    any other support wanted please ask
     
    Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2017
    #194
  18. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I am uninterested in any of those things. I have no desire to change Bells mind or any one else's. They can do that for themselves.
    This is not propaganda as defined by sciforums rules. edit: IMO
     
    Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2017
    #195
  19. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I have taken a moment to read my past posts and I admit I may have confused Bells and others with my use of the word genocide.
    I stated that there was no evidence of genocide which is factually incorrect, when using a more complete definition of word.
    To me genocide was the mass slaughter of a group of people based on either ethnicity or religion in a complete fashion.
    That is to say genocide relates to large numbers of deaths and mass graves. re: Srebrenica
    Sadly I have been mistaken and I accept that I have unfortunately inflamed and closed off discussion because of it.
    I unreservedly apologize for any confusion I may have generated.
    Like wise with the word caliphate....as in common usage due to recent events (ISIL) means something else beyond intended.
     
    Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2017
    #196
  20. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    No you didn't. And no I am not.

    *Sigh*

    Once more, they are requesting self determination under the Burmese Federation. Not "from" the Burmese Federation as a bid for independence..

    And people who seek independence do not tend to request the reinstatement of their citizenship from said country.
     
    Bells, Sep 25, 2017
    #197
  21. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    ok.. so please indicate where they are actually requesting citizenship in the link you provided?
    note: self determination and citizenship are not the same thing...

    One would normally and intuitively expect that the desire for full citizenship would be plastered all over their website..given that they are currently stateless and have been for some time and is at the very heart of their current problem
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
    Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2017
    #198
  22. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    This is wrong... sorry
    but:
    "The right of ‘self-determination’ of the Rohingya people within the Burmese federation."
    is what they have written.


    The wording is actually important.

    For comparative political systems reference see:
    Wiki Republics of Russia
    Autonomous or semi autonomous regions with in a Russian Federation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
    Quantum Quack, Sep 25, 2017
    #199
  23. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    QQ:

    The right of self-determination means the right of the people in a territory to determine their own political status. It doesn't have to mean that they want a separate state.
     
    James R, Sep 25, 2017
    #200
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