Blame The Russians?

Discussion in 'Conspiracies' started by Bowser, Dec 20, 2016.

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Are the Russians to blame for Trump's victor?

  1. Yeah, they rule everything, including political choices.

    2 vote(s)
    20.0%
  2. They hacked the DNC and showed us the truth. Yes, they are to blame.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. They played a role, somehow, some way, we just know it.

    2 vote(s)
    20.0%
  4. No, they are simply political victims of the Democratic Party blame game.

    1 vote(s)
    10.0%
  5. They played no role and are having a good laugh at our politics and media

    5 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    LOL....be honest Karenmansker. As I have pointed out you are great at casting out unsubstantiated assertions. You are horrible at substantiating them, and not surprisingly, your obfuscating continues. You can't produce any evidence to support your assertions. That's the bottom line here. Please feel free to prove me wrong at any time. But we both know you cannot. Hence all the obfuscation and ad hominem.
     
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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    No.
    I asked earlier where should I look and no one answered.
    A google presented me with a page with headings indicating problems that is why I asked.
    Well I have not seem them that was what I was asking for.
    I do not hold a position I merely wanted to learn more.
    My comment was upon the assertion that the burden of proof shifts, I say it does not shift I do not see my statement as unreasonable given that principle is followed in your courts.
    Rather than try to sort thru the material I found on my google I asked here what evidence should I look for, no reply, and yet I took no position other than remind the forum of the operation of the burden of proof.
    You have me wrong, I am on the outside looking in and trying to work out what is going on.
    I still have no idea what the Russians specifically are accused of..I proceed from a position of ignorance.
    I was surprised that the comment was made suggesting the burden of proof shifts but I have taken no position and say I am still unaware of what the Russians have done or what evidence is against them.
    It is only now that I see you provided a link and I take this opportunity to thank you.
    I will read it.
    Alex
     
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  5. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    This is as far as I got before I went to bed.
    I thought your post needed and edit as the quotes seemed out of wack.
    I guess you have edited it so I will star again.
    Thank you for your replies.
    Alex
     
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  7. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    No we have a misunderstanding.
    I am not trying to discredit anything I simply am trying to learn the facts.
    All good now and thank you for your replies I am getting up to speed now.
    The main problem is I have not followed this news, any news really over Xmas and although important to you what happens in USA is not front of mind for me.
    Thanks again.
    Alex
     
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  8. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    LOL...and when have you done that even once comrade?

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    I think you have been hitting the vodka again.

    As previously pointed out to you comrade those instances occurred during the previously referenced Cold War and your beloved Mother Russia did it too. In fact you beloved Mother Russia invaded countries seeking democracy in order to preserve Soviet (i.e. Russian influence).

    Well, that's a little dishonest don't you think comrade? The article you cited went back to 1946. As for Yeltsin being a good friend of the US, what's that suppose to mean? The US didn't install Yeltsin. It did help help him because he was the duly elected leader of Mother Russia. The US helped other former clients of the Soviet state too. If you recall comrade those were some pretty tough times for your beloved Mother Russia. Russians didn't have food, clothing, or anything else for that matter.

    The US also supported your beloved Mother Putina as well, right up until he decided he wanted to invade, occupy and annex neighboring states. That's when the United States and other Western powers withdrew their support of Mother Putina. That's the part you left out. Gee, I wonder why.

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    Do you even read your references? I don't think you do, because this isn't the first time you have referenced materials which don't support your assertions. And as if that were not enough, you have referenced the same things over and over again using different links making it look like you have referenced more materials than you actually have. None of that is honest comrade.

    What did the US do to influence the Kosovo elections in 2000? Please do be specific.
     
  9. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    It's apparent you too don't read your references. You cherry pick those items which you believe confirm your biases and ignore the rest. I suggest you read your references. They very clearly say the US did nothing wrong. The US didn't actively try to influence any Israeli election. Congress approved the funds and were spent they way they were suppose to be spent. The US was required to fund certain groups by Congress and it did. If one of those groups subsequently supported a political candidate, there is nothing wrong with that.

    This is what that group does:

    "For decades, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has defined and distorted the daily lives of millions of people. We have seen progress, we have seen setbacks, but now all we see is stagnation. For Palestinians and Israelis, the status quo is untenable.

    Since 2002, the OneVoice Movement has been supporting the work of brave Israelis and Palestinians striving for a better future. Ultimately, they must be the ones to agree on the terms for a negotiated resolution, but this is a conflict with global implications and international factors. Therefore, those of us living outside of the region also have a part to play.

    Internationally, OneVoice works to raise resources and visibility for the critical work of our regional partners. We also run our own highly effective programming aimed at reducing hate, polarization and racism, and providing high school and college students with the education and tools to contribute meaningfully to a just and lasting peace for Israel and Palestine within their own communities.

    Today, the OneVoice Movement is truly global, active in the United States and Europe, and supporting the work of our partners in Israel and Palestine. Learn more about what we do below:

    For decades, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has defined and distorted the daily lives of millions of people. We have seen progress, we have seen setbacks, but now all we see is stagnation. For Palestinians and Israelis, the status quo is untenable.

    Since 2002, the OneVoice Movement has been supporting the work of brave Israelis and Palestinians striving for a better future. Ultimately, they must be the ones to agree on the terms for a negotiated resolution, but this is a conflict with global implications and international factors. Therefore, those of us living outside of the region also have a part to play.

    Internationally, OneVoice works to raise resources and visibility for the critical work of our regional partners. We also run our own highly effective programming aimed at reducing hate, polarization and racism, and providing high school and college students with the education and tools to contribute meaningfully to a just and lasting peace for Israel and Palestine within their own communities.

    Today, the OneVoice Movement is truly global, active in the United States and Europe, and supporting the work of our partners in Israel and Palestine.

    It's no secret the US has tried to support peace in the region for many decades. So to equate Russia's illegal hacking of American servers with the lawful donating money to an Israeli-Palestinian organization is just flat out wrong. The US government supports a number of charitable organizations around the globe, and that's a good thing.
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    Yeah comrade let Europe handle her own problems; except the last time we did that 85 million people died. That's why comrade. That's why we need NATO. NATO has been engaged several times since the fall of the Soviet Union. And with the resurgence of Russian aggression, NATO is needed now more than ever.

    Yeah, who invaded Iraq, Eritrea, Somalia, and Granada? I guess you don't understand the difference between UN sanctioned humanitarian missions and Russian aggression. Trust me comrade, there is a difference. One is legal, one is not. One is done for humanitarian reasons; the other isn't.
     
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    You are a good man Alex.
     
  12. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    Thank you for your kindness.
    It may not be clear but I appreciate the honor of reading your views and the views of other members.
    Today is special for me for I have now been a member of this wonderful forum for one year.
    I live a solitary life and even if I socialize do not get to associate with intelligent and interesting people.
    I somehow feel comfortable here and enjoy the high level, generally, of conversation.
    Alex
     
  13. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,003
    I do it all the time. Maybe an English problem? I have used http://www.dict.cc/deutsch-englisch/entsorgen.html to translate the German "entsorgen". It means simply throw away something nasty, which one would not like to touch. Here in the forum it means that I simply delete it without commenting it. This is the best way to handle most of your waste.
    It means that even if Yeltsin has influenced some elections (I doubt, why would he, he had enough problems at home), this was not against American interest, but probably even supported by America. So, I do not have to speculate much what part of the 18% after the cold war was American and which part Russian.
    But they supported him heavily in his election campaigns.
    Oh, Russia did have a lot of nice things, but the oligarchs like the hero of the West Chodorkowski have stolen almost everything they could get, so this was quite a bad time for the Russian people. Not for the Yeltsin family, of course, they became rich too.
    What did you do last night with that small girl? Please do be specific.

    I have not made any claims at all about whatever happened in some elections in Kosovo 2000, so that your request is as nonsensical as my reply above.
     
  14. karenmansker HSIRI Banned

    Messages:
    638
    Joe: I refer you (again) to my post #71. If you call providing specific references that you requested (and which I provided) cherry picking, then so be it.

    Just remember: "You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose - but you can't pick your friend's nose!" HAHA! Lighten up, dude! . . . .
     
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    Yeah, more obfuscation on your part. I again challenge you to support your assertion.

    And you think that makes sense...? I guess that explains much.

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    Are you telling me you pick your friends nose as well as your own? Well, to each his own. But I pick no ones nose including my own.
     
  16. karenmansker HSIRI Banned

    Messages:
    638
    Pls review my referential list - read some of them! - they are the specifics that you requested.

    Re: Nose picking: Joe: You evidently have issues with philosophical humor - and, NO, I do not pick my friends' noses, but I suspect that you may if the opportunities (i.e., friends) arise! . . . . again . . . LIGHTEN-UP, DUDE!!
     
  17. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    Instead of picking your nose and your friends noses, I suggest you go back and read my previous posts.

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  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    Good thing people just using their common sense and enormous preponderance of evidence to evaluate obvious situations on a science forum aren't engaging in criminal prosecution, then.

    'Cause we'd never get anywhere, with a criterion like that.
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    Clearly only someone who cared about decent US government would care about its corruption and undermining. So?

    You can't make those jokes, because they can't be reliably distinguished from your sincere posting.
     
  20. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    Even though you seem to shoot the messenger the other aspect of proof on criminal proceedings is that proof offered must place the matter beyond reasonable doubt (and that is the subject of discussion) in a civil matter the proof is such that a reasonable man would accept.
    So you are right you may be a while getting anything done in a court room.
    I am still getting up to speed on the hacking I presume to understand by this time tomorrow.
    Alex
     
  21. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,003
    The victims of US interference in foreign elections are, of course, usually not US citizens, thus, US-internal corruption is not a problem for them. They have to care about their own corrupt politicians. And especially care about those paid by the US.
    As if I would have to care if some idiots understand my jokes.
     
  22. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    Ignoring the fact you have no evidence to support your assertions about the US, you are still making the 2 wrongs make a right argument. As I have said before, that argument never worked with my mother. I guess Russian mothers are different.
     
  23. timojin Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,252
    Are you Mccarthy's son by any chance . He blamed everything on the USSR since he is not a live any more and there is no USSR. but you are a new breed you must be his son.
     

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