Is basic income smarter concept than a minimum wage?

first, we were discussing wages, now you switched up and rolled to salaries. you are erratic now.

 

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I am fine with giving people a low salary - IF THEY WANT IT. I am fine with giving people a high salary - IF THEY WANT IT. I have no intention of denying anyone anything, or dictating to them which job they must accept. It is up to them, not me, to decide what salary they want and will accept. And it is certainly not up to you.

Why do you feel that you should dictate what people make, no matter what the situation? Is this need to force yourself on others a common theme in your life?

 

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comical--no--no, i have not.

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(shakes head)(sarcastic-ness)

this is simply not true/accurate. this is simply your own excuse, as it is with any individual whom has no will nor determination to evolve themselves. which is the point i have been making for a few pages now, that you are simply ignoring/masking in order to continue with your pathetic, manipulating, unrealistic, whining.

ahh--now it is about no available jobs??? again--erratic

 

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OK, so you do think that people who will not or cannot improve themselves deserve to be treated as subhuman.

If everyone could get a PhD in physics, would this mean that nobody would have to serve food? Would nobody ever travel, so that there would be no need for hotel rooms and nobody would ever have to clean a hotel room? I'm just trying to think of the way the world really works.

 

in a couple of the business that i own and control, i have offered individuals raises and such--with a simple requirement. that requirement was simply take a pre-algebra class.. the responses was simply an abundance of whining that resulted in this individual to depart. i let them go simply because after the denial of the attempt to evolve themselves, i later found out that this individual was going around speaking of how shit-y he was being treated and that he deserved a raised, but failed to mention what i requested for the raise, and was simply telling everyone that i denied them the raise out right, which lead to this individual making insulting and defaming remarks to other employees about me and the situation. now that is a massive part of this " real world."

 

I guess I should not be surprised at the level of complete naivete on this forum, but you two are really clueless.

 

Ahhh... there we have it. You are an exploiter.

It makes a lot of sense, given your pattern of going from forum to forum being as cruel as possible to the cranks you find that you can dogpile on.

 

Sounds like you've never lived in the real world. Try it sometime.

 

ahh--more of putting words in my mouth shenanigans-- in other words--more of manipulation attempts.

more of manipulation attempts. again--erratic.

 

says the pathetic, obviously jealous, broke, whiny, teenager that ,obviously, has no will nor determination to evolve themselves, but instead, rather whine about how everyone else should subsidize their living choices.--comical.

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(shakes head)--carry on.

 

ahh--there you have it, nothing more than a pathetic, whiny, jealous, teenager(how typical)-- that is endlessly putting words in other people's mouths.

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(shakes head, pathetic)--carry on.

comical-- so now you have resorted to your animosity of jealous feeling, i see. you appear to be an resemblance of the individual in my explanation of post #85

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(shakes head)--carry on.

 

Well, that depends on what you mean by equally. We are not manufactured parts on an assembly line. We are inherently unequal and therefore have different needs. But we all have a need for basic sustenance. We all need food, water, housing, clothing, healthcare, transportation, etc. And that's what were are talking about here...that basic level of sustenance. Everyone should be able to have access to a basic level of income which affords people access to that basic level of sustenance, and the best way to do that, for those who are able to work, is through the workplace and for those who are not able to do so, a basic level of direct government support.

Well, what is comfortable? I don't mind people having access to a comfortable living room. I don't want people tortured because they are not higher income earners. I see no value in that. We are talking about a minimum level of support for a minimum standard of living. None of this is new. Back in the old days, they had poor houses to house and feed the poor. So the concept has been around for a long time.

True. And because of that increased prosperity, many of the poor have a higher standard of living. My cousins were the poorest people I knew when I was a child. They didn't have running water either hot or cold. They had to pump water from a well located 100 feet from their home which was shack - nine people living in a very small 2 bedroom shack. Their house always smelled of the propane they burned to keep them warm. Every one of my 7 cousins went on to college and every one of them has been very successful. But they came from the humblest circumstances.

No, it's a bad thing, because it really isn't a choice for many people. If you are poor, it's not easy picking up sticks and moving to a different place where you know no one and have no job or prospect of a job. It's even more difficult when you a family. Less expensive places are "less expensive" for a reason....usually because job prospects are slim. If you want cheaper, go to rural areas. They are cheaper, but jobs are pretty damn scarce too.

No I didn't. As I said before, "You cannot realistically expect a dog to become a horse. It's not happening. You shouldn't expect everyone to be a Billvon." That's not comparing people to dogs or horses. The point was, you cannot expect people to become something they are not. You cannot expect a person with a 70 IQ to do a job which requires an IQ of 120. That's why the US military does IQ testing.

There are people who are capable of more and there are those who are not. If they are not capable, they are simply incapable. They will never be anymore than what they are and some have no desire to be anything other than what they are. Not everyone wants to be a Billvon. Just because some people work in low wage jobs, it doesn't mean they aren't capable of earning more. You and I both began our careers working in low wage jobs, and just because you have a higher paying job, it doesn't mean you will always have a higher paying job. But people are either capable of more or they are not. And some people are not capable, and some people enjoy doing low wage jobs. We don't all march to the same piper.

Keep them there....? Aren't you the guy arguing against a minimum income? You assume there is something wrong with them. Many don't want to change. While you might not like doing some of these jobs, some people do like those jobs and some just don't have the hardware or software to do higher paid work. It's odd to hear you argue for providing them opportunity, but then in the next breath argue against a minimum wage. Income is opportunity. Why should a fry cook or care taker change his or her profession just to be able to earn a livable wage?

There is nothing wrong and everything right in giving all people opportunities. It increases competition and more competition is good. But at the end of the day, we still need people do these low wage tasks. We need people to grow and prepare our foods, to clean our offices, homes, children and elderly. The question is how will we treat these people? Today, these jobs are not very well paid, and they should be and could paid better. They should receive a livable wage for the things they do, and too often they do not. They should be able to make a decent living for doing these important jobs. And at a time when income inequality has become extreme, it's very apropos. It would be good for the economy.

 

^^

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(shakes head)--MY GOD-- are you even listening to yourself?

 

Of course. We should all have equal RIGHTS and be equal under the LAW. That does not, of course, make us all the same.

Nor do I! I think they should choose what sort of living room they want.

?? Surely you are not equating someone who chooses a less-comfortable living room to being tortured? If so, then there is no need to continue the discussion.

Of course you did. You made a comparison. "Low skilled people are like dogs; and just as you cannot expect a dog to become a horse, you cannot expect low skilled people to be successful." That is still incorrect.

Right. And indeed a person with an IQ of 70 is so hampered that he is going to need supervision his whole life. He would be declared incompetent and have someone else managing his affairs, so he's not really applicable to someone in a free labor market.

Let's take a more realistic case - someone with an IQ of 80, who is notably dumb but capable of self-supervision. Such a person, if he dedicated himself, could end up as a janitor in a state facility, and state jobs have reasonably good pay scales. School janitors, for example, make $14 an hour on average - far above minimum wage.

You are simply dead wrong. I know people who have, people you would consider a "dog" (failing at school, drug problems, crime, jail) but have gone on to spectacular (to them) success. Their success may not impress you; manager at the local Red Lobster may not be much for someone with your background. But they are making reasonable money and supporting their families.

There is nothing wrong with them, and they may not want to change. Up to them, not you.

With dignity and respect.

Sounds like your one beef is that they are not making a minimum amount that you consider "livable." So for that I propose this solution:

Offer "living wage insurance." Once they sign on the dotted line, they will be guaranteed, for life, a salary that the insurance company considers livable. If they make less than that, they get a check to make up the difference. If they make more than that, their pay is docked to pay for the other people making less than them. (And to run the program, of course.) Everyone wins. People who want to ensure they keep making X dollars have a way to do that, and people who want to take more risk for potentially more reward can do that as well.

 

I live within my means, and am not complaining. The point is, people are perfectly happy with minimum wage as long as it meets their needs. Also, the assumption that everyone can be a millionaire or billionaire is really silly.

 

why is that silly ?
i find this less silly than one whining for everyone else to subsidize ones own choices of living because they have no will nor determination to do it themselves-- that is actually silly.

 

If you're working for your money, it's hardly a subsidy. I'm a bit bewildered by your position on minimum wage. I'm curious, what do you think is an honest wage for a burger flipper?

 

except when they whine because they feel that the company should pay them more for a task that only requires basic knowldge without them having above basic skills knowledge, correct?

i am sure that you are bewildered. i have this position simply because i was one of the poor people, except i actually did something about it rather than whining to the company to subsidize my choice of living, i used my will and determination to evolve from that.
as to the second part, 8.00$/h--if this is not liked, then simply evolve from it-- it is this simple. what is not being realized is that these types of jobs are not housed for mental use, they are simply physical labor use. paying one for their intellect is a completely different element than paying one for their physical labor.

 

what established minimum wage as a mandatory tool to meet everyone's needs?
this is the part that is being masked-- it was not designed to be a livable income--it was designed to be a entry level income for work experience as a new workforce.

 

Well, that's the problem right there. Someone living with a roommate in Harlingen, Texas is going to be able to easily meet all their basic living expenses on a standard minimum wage. Someone living by themselves in Palo Alto - minimum wage won't even come close. (Of course, in neither case can you guarantee they will be happy, or that the money they are making will meet all their needs.)